I did a quick search to see if this topic has already been brought up, and all I could find was a post that was concerned with the NPC con, such as what color it would show, or how many dots it had that would help a player determine it's difficulty.
What I would like to discuss is the difficulty of the majority of NPC's in the game. I'm pretty oldschool and favor an XP "grinding" system where groups would get together and find a good farm spot and chain pull for XP (the chain bonuses in FFXI were awesome). I'm not a big fan of solo leveling where you run from point A to point B, killing various solo mobs on the way, and then returning to the quest giver for your reward. My favorite memories of leveling up my characters were sitting in a dungeon where there was a high congestion of difficult mobs to kill, and chain pulling for hours on end. Because of the nature of the grind, classes that brought buffs to the group were extremely important such as bards, enchanters, or red mages in FFXI.
My understanding of this game is that it will be heavily group oriented, meaning that there will be some solo content, but to get to the good stuff, you're generally going to require a group. Even the most decked out characters would have an impossible journey ahead of them if they wanted to get deep into a dungeon or enemy fortress. I am hoping to see something like this in Pantheon.
I would also like to see a huge loot table available even on some regular mobs that have an extremely rare chance to drop something awesome. I remember in EQOA farming shady crocs to try and get a spectre robe, only to find out that my server (Proudpine Outpost) no longer dropped the item after months of farming. There was also a CV (Ceremonal Vestment) robe that was white that was pretty rare. The item itself wasn't that great but for aesthetic purposes, you would find people farming these for days on end to try and get that cool robe for their character to fill a slot that otherwise couldn't be filled for a plate wearer.
Overall, I'm hoping that most content in the game is going to be very difficult. I remember leveling in FFXI in Valkurn Dunes, where you're literally level 10 or so and tossed straight into the fire. If your group wiped, you'd better hope that someone in your group was leveling an alt class and had a higher WHM they could switch over to in order to go and rez your group up. When nighttime came, harder NPC's would appear that you absolutely had to avoid or your group would get wiped.
I remember around level 40 trying to get my AQ (Artifact Armor) on my Paladin. I had to farm undead that was extremely difficult. Even level 50's were hardpressed to try and help you with the quest as the mobs were very difficult to get to, and a wipe had serious consequences because of the corpse run.
And as far as loot tables go, it wasn't just the robes that were appealing to farm for. There were rare breastplates in EQOA that would drop off of sand giants. They were extremely rare, probably a 0.01% drop rate, but the breastplate was almost raid quality. If there was one thing I absolutely despised about WoW, it was the loot tables. Everything was so linear when it game to upgrading your characters. In PVP, everybody was basically geared the exact same. In PVE, it was pretty much the same thing. There was no variety of loot to choose from, or special "features" on certain gear that made it extra desirable. I like seeing gear that has has clicky effects on it or some sort of buff that was meaningful. Not just a stat boost, but something that would make it super cool for certain classes.
I really hope the loot tables in Pantheon are going to be huge, and that non-raid non-boss type mobs have a chance of dropping something really good, even if that chance is extremely rare. It's almost like a mini-quest of sorts when you want something bad enough. To this day I remember farming those sand giants to get the uber breastplate, and I must've killed at least 10,000 of them and never got the damned thing. But it gave people something to do during non-raid hours that still had a great potential reward for those willing to spend the time trying to acquire it. And for someone who wasn't necessarily looking for it, but got lucky, they had an extremly valuable item that they could sell on the market or trade it for something that they actually wanted. These items should be so rare that when someone got one, they could link it in the community chat and get a pretty big reaction from everybody and flood of messages from people wanting to purchase it from them or trade for it.
I don't really like the idea of extremely rare raid quality (or nearly) loot dropping off of otherwise trivial mobs. I'm aware of the existence of CV from EQOA and I'd be fine with something like that just because it was mostly an aesthetic thing with some minor stat increases.
oneADseven said:My understanding of this game is that it will be heavily group oriented, meaning that there will be some solo content, but to get to the good stuff, you're generally going to require a group. Even the most decked out characters would have an impossible journey ahead of them if they wanted to get deep into a dungeon or enemy fortress. I am hoping to see something like this in Pantheon.
I would also like to see a huge loot table available even on some regular mobs that have an extremely rare chance to drop something awesome.
Maybe if once in a blue moon instead of spawning A_Gnoll_Champion_001, Barkpaw Darkpaw spawns (or whatever mob), the grizzled old warrior grandfather of Fippy, a general in the old wars and would be far far harder to kill than a reg. gnoll, but would drop something cooler than reg loot table items, like a Darkpaw Scimitar, or Spear of Human Poking. I always liked the old WoW rare/named mob system until they ruined it and made rare mobs as common as dirt and most of them drop nothing now. Their drops where more sideways though with just a tiny stat boost, not gamechangers which was cool imo and rare used to mean rare, as in if you saw it you were really lucky, let alone actually got the chance to try and kill it
TLDR: The odd named extremely rare mob with nice loot might be nice? Provided the challenge matches the drop?
Liav said:I don't really like the idea of extremely rare raid quality (or nearly) loot dropping off of otherwise trivial mobs. I'm aware of the existence of CV from EQOA and I'd be fine with something like that just because it was mostly an aesthetic thing with some minor stat increases.
I am OK with the rare drop coming from a random mob, but it has to be rare.
Nothing will make your day like randomly getting an awesome item from some random trash mob.
Having competition over mobs helps to keep things rare, but I hope that one item won't be so good everyone feels they need to camp it. It sounded like they wanted you to move around the game and just enjoy the journey/adventure. I think the MMOs have become almost entirely about the loot and everything is very structured. I hope the game is more open like original EQ.
Liav said:I don't really like the idea of extremely rare raid quality (or nearly) loot dropping off of otherwise trivial mobs. I'm aware of the existence of CV from EQOA and I'd be fine with something like that just because it was mostly an aesthetic thing with some minor stat increases.
I would agree with this regarding raid gear, but it can be done for just really good gear for the level. For example, in EQ they had ultra rare drops, like 1 in a 5000 chance of really nice items from common mobs e.g. Siblisian Berserker Cloak in Old Sebilis.
Beefcake said:Raid gear should not drop from random, non-raid drops. Group mobs should drop group-level loot.
Well if this is the case then raid mobs should all drop raid quality gear, another aspect that been badly handled in most games. EQ2 in particular had a ton of raid content, but the majority of the loot was crap. There were plenty of cases where nobody would even spend a single DKP on the drops, instead opting for it to be sold for a small value to merchants. There was gear that you could get from quest lines or even heroic dungeons that was far superior to most of the stuff dropping from raid bosses, and that's pretty sad.
I'm not saying I want the game to be flooded with amazing gear from regular NPC's, but if there is going to be "good" or "great" gear obtainable from group oriented dungeons or even quest lines, it wouldn't hurt for there to be a general worldwide loot table that had some really good drops in it. There should always be a variety of ways to gear our toons out. I remember entire expansions in EQ2 where there would be only one awesome pair of plate boots that dropped from a single mob in a single zone. Despite being in one of the first guilds to clear the zone, and clearing it weekly for the entire expansion, our guild never saw it drop.
Even worse was in T6 when you needed the Djinn Master's Ring in order to advance in DMP (Djinn Masters Prism) -- in order to kill Juranata or any boss after him, you HAD to have this ring equipped on one of your tanks as it prevented their Death Touch ability. It was a random drop from trash mobs in the zone and because of lockout purposes you only had so many trash mobs you could kill per week. It took our guild nearly 3 months to get one to drop. That's a horrible roadblock for progression.
The main thing I would like to see is a large loot table. Not all raid gear needs to be of epic amazing quality, and not all amazing quality gear needs to come from raids. I was a hardcore raider for many years and basically monopolized most of the contested mobs on our server. In the KoS expansion we killed something crazy like 98% of the contested mobs for the entire expansion. This was because we had people on call that could log in at all hours of the day or night, and several of us being able to box multiple characters. It wasn't really fair to the rest of the server but it felt great for us. The same could be said in EQOA ... I had one of the best geared tanks in the game, fully decked out in the best of the best of raid gear. I remember seeing a non-raiding tank that had a Darkstone Breastplate. It wasn't quite as good as some of the breastplates I had, but it was pretty damn close, and it had a cool graphic. I farmed forever to try and get one of those and to this day I'm not even sure I was farming the right mobs. That's how rare it was. One guy on our server had it. This is something I'd like to see in Pantheon. For the avid players that like collecting gear like I did, it gives us something to do that's a change of scenery from raiding. It doesen't need to be an end-all-be-all item, but it could be comparable to raid gear and have a unique graphic or something like that which made it desirable.
Oh and this thread wasn't only about loot tables. It was also about mob difficulty. Some of my favorite early day memories was playing FFXI where even in the early game you were fearful of death and it's penalties. I have heard many times that this game is going to be focused on group content, and have a big emphasis on risk vs reward. I would recommend doing an analysis on FFXI because they pulled this off perfectly. The entire game was challenging. I remember trying to get my wife to play it years later and she literally quit before level 5. It's not for everybody, and that's GREAT -- some of us actually enjoy a great challenge. Losing XP and deleveling was a bit tedious but other than that, FFXI pretty much set the bar for me when it comes to how difficult I would like the game to be.
bigdogchris said:Liav said:I don't really like the idea of extremely rare raid quality (or nearly) loot dropping off of otherwise trivial mobs. I'm aware of the existence of CV from EQOA and I'd be fine with something like that just because it was mostly an aesthetic thing with some minor stat increases.
I would agree with this regarding raid gear, but it can be done for just really good gear for the level. For example, in EQ they had ultra rare drops, like 1 in a 5000 chance of really nice items from common mobs e.g. Siblisian Berserker Cloak in Old Sebilis.
Siblisian Berserker Cloak, Obulus Death Shroud, and Runedbranded Girdle are all zonewide rares from Old Sebilis. The issue is that all 3 of those items are best in slot or very close to it for the entire expansion. As a matter of fact, I don't believe ODS gets replaced until Luclin due to the focus effect, but I could be wrong.
These pieces aren't just "really good", they're amazing even compared to actual raid drops.
I agree with Liav here, ultra rare and raid items should not drop from random mobs. And I say that as a non-raider who would never acquire those items any other way.
But a random drop of a "unique" item would be a nice touch. For intantnce, the "Bone Bladed Claymore" from Befallen, could be a rare drop from another similar leveled mob in Befallen or West Commons, or Fist of Zek or Runed Blade rare random from mobs in Dreadlands or Frontier Mountains.
But it needs to be rare enough to make the named mob sought after as the primary way to acquire the item, any other should be just rare "OMG!!" luck.
Realistically as long as it's not statistically powerful, it's fine. The Ceremonial Vestment from EQOA for instance was an ultra rare worldwide drop iirc, but it had very little in terms of statistical gain.
Rare aesthetic things I'm cool with, just not high statistical quality loot.
Raid loot should come from raids and raid areas, nowhere else imo. I'm ok with entry level raid loot randomly nd rarely dropping off trash mobs like in EQ1, but the idea of getting raid loot off a mob not in a raid area etc seems odd
As for rare spawns or rare drops off common mobs, VR could have rare mobs that drop cosmetic items, like a slight glow for the sword you already own, or armor visual enhancements... things with no stats, but look damn cool in game and would be trade-abie and desirable. Maybe that rare mob drops a sweet item for crafting? Lots of possibilities
Loot doesn't always have to be about stats and min/max and game impact.
Edit - that spelling thing
Portalgun said:Loot doesn't always have to be about stats and min/max and game impact.
Then what the heck is the point? Ultra rare drops off ultra rare spawns in the item you get is crap? Nobody wants that. Nobody will put in the time nor effort to even try to get a rare spawn if it is known that no matter what drops it is garbage. Sorry, loot is about stats, it is about power, it is about uniqueness, it is about making others envyous. You don't get any of that off crap drops regardless of their rarity.
Vandraad said:Then what the heck is the point? Ultra rare drops off ultra rare spawns in the item you get is crap? Nobody wants that. Nobody will put in the time nor effort to even try to get a rare spawn if it is known that no matter what drops it is garbage. Sorry, loot is about stats, it is about power, it is about uniqueness, it is about making others envyous. You don't get any of that off crap drops regardless of their rarity.
Disagree. Some random casual is going to kill one mob and get an amazing item off of it, while another person will kill a million mobs and get nothing. Neither player really deserves high quality loot for bashing their heads into trivial mobs.
If you want powerful stat loot, you can raid, or do epic quests. Other than that, nope nope nope.
I think all items should always be obtainable. If something was considered to be for the most dedicated of players, when that content becomes trivial just make it rare. I do however hate some RNG. For example, in FF14 we were clearing all coil when 2.0 launched basically since the first week (well minus coil 5). There was some gear we had never seen by the time the new tier came out. This wasn't even gear that was overly more powerful than the other pieces you get, just stupid RNG. I like rare things because imo it gives some longevity to content. However, I would propose a way to implement safety net type features just in case some poor sap just isn't as lucky. One reason I'm a fan of currency you can gain to buy stuff. One reason I've always thought the implementation of some global counter that tracks how many times a person has killed X thing for a rare item and if he doesn't get it by the time the % implemented by the devs for that drop would add up to 100% it's guranteed to drop on their next kill. In the end it just feels somewhat disheartening when you are one of the most dedicated players and even then still can't get something you want only on the premise of bad RNG luck.
I like the idea of currency allowing people to buy the super rare pieces they can't get to drop, but only as long as the currency comes from content equally difficult or harder than the content that drops the item they want.
Getting a consolation prize of amazing gear for killing a thousand trivial mobs is nonsense.
Fulton said:I agree with Liav here, ultra rare and raid items should not drop from random mobs. And I say that as a non-raider who would never acquire those items any other way.
But a random drop of a "unique" item would be a nice touch. For intantnce, the "Bone Bladed Claymore" from Befallen, could be a rare drop from another similar leveled mob in Befallen or West Commons, or Fist of Zek or Runed Blade rare random from mobs in Dreadlands or Frontier Mountains.
But it needs to be rare enough to make the named mob sought after as the primary way to acquire the item, any other should be just rare "OMG!!" luck.
It is important to remember that not all BiS items come from raids. Hell, some items are not intended by the devs to be BiS, but for some reason, they become so.
Liav said:Vandraad said:Then what the heck is the point? Ultra rare drops off ultra rare spawns in the item you get is crap? Nobody wants that. Nobody will put in the time nor effort to even try to get a rare spawn if it is known that no matter what drops it is garbage. Sorry, loot is about stats, it is about power, it is about uniqueness, it is about making others envyous. You don't get any of that off crap drops regardless of their rarity.
Disagree. Some random casual is going to kill one mob and get an amazing item off of it, while another person will kill a million mobs and get nothing. Neither player really deserves high quality loot for bashing their heads into trivial mobs.
If you want powerful stat loot, you can raid, or do epic quests. Other than that, nope nope nope.
As usual, I must disagree with Liav. There is nothing wrong with BiS items coming from non-raid sources. Hopefully, the best gear will come from crafting, or at least made the best through crafting modifications.
I love to raid and will do so regularly. But it's not the only source of best gear.
Eliseus said:I think all items should always be obtainable. If something was considered to be for the most dedicated of players, when that content becomes trivial just make it rare. I do however hate some RNG. For example, in FF14 we were clearing all coil when 2.0 launched basically since the first week (well minus coil 5). There was some gear we had never seen by the time the new tier came out. This wasn't even gear that was overly more powerful than the other pieces you get, just stupid RNG. I like rare things because imo it gives some longevity to content. However, I would propose a way to implement safety net type features just in case some poor sap just isn't as lucky. One reason I'm a fan of currency you can gain to buy stuff. One reason I've always thought the implementation of some global counter that tracks how many times a person has killed X thing for a rare item and if he doesn't get it by the time the % implemented by the devs for that drop would add up to 100% it's guranteed to drop on their next kill. In the end it just feels somewhat disheartening when you are one of the most dedicated players and even then still can't get something you want only on the premise of bad RNG luck.
I can agree with earning currency, but definitely not the guaranteed loot option. I like the RNG. It's equitable and chaotic.
May the dice be ever in your favor. But, sometimes, you have have to pray to the RNGsus.