Wellspring said:Agreed. TLC will make the problem it is supposedly "solving", way worse.
If you can no longer loot a valuable item after a certain level, then it will become even more contested by players, not less...
That argument would have some merit if it were not for the fact that pantheon will have a mentoring system. Mentoring lower level players will effectively lower your level, thus making said item attainable again. And you get to help out newer players to boot. Everybody wins.
No TLC, and people like me come along on their raid mains and roflstomp over everything.
CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:So, only play a couple hours a week, get all the loot you want.
Or, the solution you are ignoring: Leave the system alone.
Keep loot meaningful though scarcity and hard-work. There are more than enough casual games for casual players. Enough of this instant gratification entitlement.
This game is not a welfare system. We don't need VR handing out "coupons" for loot for those too "pre-occupied" to work for it. This is essentially handing out cheat codes. Level too hard, use a cheat code.
As for your statement that "This would only be offered for those "on fire" camps of course, like AC ring, FBSS, things with high resale value and high camping desirability, not for every quest item or fairly desirable item in the game."
How could you possibly believe this would not affect the game through the economy? People would simply sell their free/entitled loot. Better yet, create 5 or 6 extra accounts, barely play them, cash in the tokens, sell for plat.
Hmm hard work...pushing a few buttons and chasing pixels on a screen? :) Dems just pixels...Elmer :D I don't see how this game will be a welfare system. Instant gratification happens in games like Wow that won't be happening here. And the few shouldn't get to hold sway over the many. What happened to doing content at the level appropriate level? Do you think you'll be able to rush through this game and be level 50 in a couple days...don't think so, so why leave out the low level areas where you can gain the faction needed with your home city, do the lowbie armor quests, perception quests...get it done and finished. Take time to smell the roses. Its not about the destination in this game, its about the journey. Least that's what I have been reading. :)
Well, Elmer, have fun clicking a few buttons while chasing your pixels. Enjoy your mobile phone games. Some of us actually put in a serious amount of effort and try to challenge ourselves by working as a team to think through and overcome the content.
It's funny that you claim all the negativity in other games will happen here, but instant gratification will not. Some of us are arguing to do our best to prevent both from happening here.
Read the forum's again, it's not just a few people here that are against welfare and instant gratification. It's the few that are fighting for them.
Don't know where you got anything from this argument about rushing to get through content. Clearly, you are trying to distract from the argument by adding baseless accusations. The argument is about when you are higher level, should you be denied content in an open world game. Not about rushing through and then getting blocked. This argument is about the future of the game, not a few days after release.
Beefcake the one thing that you need to come to terms with is..assuming things about other people. Just to clarify I don't own a mobile phone...I am talking to you from my desktop ...lol the other thing you need to know..is I'm a gamer who likes challenges. Most of the games I have played since the mid 1990s were pvp. Not Hello Kitty. :P And I am concerned about the future of this game or I wouldn't have put down my 1K cold cash.
You might want to read your own post before saying I am making assumptions about people. You are the one that started the issue with calling me Elmer and claiming that I am just chasing pixels while trying to get to 50 in 2 days. You know nothing about my playstyle, yet you start in with the assumptions.
Just putting smiley faces in an insult does not make it acceptable.
Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:So, only play a couple hours a week, get all the loot you want.
Or, the solution you are ignoring: Leave the system alone.
Keep loot meaningful though scarcity and hard-work. There are more than enough casual games for casual players. Enough of this instant gratification entitlement.
This game is not a welfare system. We don't need VR handing out "coupons" for loot for those too "pre-occupied" to work for it. This is essentially handing out cheat codes. Level too hard, use a cheat code.
As for your statement that "This would only be offered for those "on fire" camps of course, like AC ring, FBSS, things with high resale value and high camping desirability, not for every quest item or fairly desirable item in the game."
How could you possibly believe this would not affect the game through the economy? People would simply sell their free/entitled loot. Better yet, create 5 or 6 extra accounts, barely play them, cash in the tokens, sell for plat.
Hmm hard work...pushing a few buttons and chasing pixels on a screen? :) Dems just pixels...Elmer :D I don't see how this game will be a welfare system. Instant gratification happens in games like Wow that won't be happening here. And the few shouldn't get to hold sway over the many. What happened to doing content at the level appropriate level? Do you think you'll be able to rush through this game and be level 50 in a couple days...don't think so, so why leave out the low level areas where you can gain the faction needed with your home city, do the lowbie armor quests, perception quests...get it done and finished. Take time to smell the roses. Its not about the destination in this game, its about the journey. Least that's what I have been reading. :)
Well, Elmer, have fun clicking a few buttons while chasing your pixels. Enjoy your mobile phone games. Some of us actually put in a serious amount of effort and try to challenge ourselves by working as a team to think through and overcome the content.
It's funny that you claim all the negativity in other games will happen here, but instant gratification will not. Some of us are arguing to do our best to prevent both from happening here.
Read the forum's again, it's not just a few people here that are against welfare and instant gratification. It's the few that are fighting for them.
Don't know where you got anything from this argument about rushing to get through content. Clearly, you are trying to distract from the argument by adding baseless accusations. The argument is about when you are higher level, should you be denied content in an open world game. Not about rushing through and then getting blocked. This argument is about the future of the game, not a few days after release.
Beefcake the one thing that you need to come to terms with is..assuming things about other people. Just to clarify I don't own a mobile phone...I am talking to you from my desktop ...lol the other thing you need to know..is I'm a gamer who likes challenges. Most of the games I have played since the mid 1990s were pvp. Not Hello Kitty. :P And I am concerned about the future of this game or I wouldn't have put down my 1K cold cash.
You might want to read your own post before saying I am making assumptions about people. You are the one that started the issue with calling me Elmer and claiming that I am just chasing pixels while trying to get to 50 in 2 days. You know nothing about my playstyle, yet you start in with the assumptions.
Just putting smiley faces in an insult does not make it acceptable.
That wasn't an insult that was something you were reading into it...because it seems every post you are on the offensive. Why? I don't know the answer to that. But indeed someone above our posts also mentioned mentoring down. (forgot about the mentoring) So with mentoring down you can have your cake and eat it too, be part of the community..cooperative play.. invite folks to group that need that drop..and hey you come off as the Good Guy? Right ? :) Good for your Rep.
My final point on my way out.
If you can earn loot by doing wha the devs intended you to do, you should get it.
But, if you cannot get the loot doing what was intended, the devs should not have to make it simpler, just so you can get the loot.
If you don't have time or skill to progress, you progress slower, but you can still progress at your own speed. It's that simple. The devs should not program shortcuts just to get you caught up because you have made other choices.
If you need help, find a friend to help. Whenever I am available, I will help you get anything done I can. So will many others.
But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Beefcake said:My final point on my way out.
If you can earn loot by doing wha the devs intended you to do, you should get it.
But, if you cannot get the loot doing what was intended, the devs should not have to make it simpler, just so you can get the loot.
If you don't have time or skill to progress, you progress slower, but you can still progress at your own speed. It's that simple. The devs should not program shortcuts just to get you caught up because you have made other choices.
If you need help, find a friend to help. Whenever I am available, I will help you get anything done I can. So will many others.
But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Im lost and or confused...are you talking about mentoring here being the shortcut?
CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:So, only play a couple hours a week, get all the loot you want.
Or, the solution you are ignoring: Leave the system alone.
Keep loot meaningful though scarcity and hard-work. There are more than enough casual games for casual players. Enough of this instant gratification entitlement.
This game is not a welfare system. We don't need VR handing out "coupons" for loot for those too "pre-occupied" to work for it. This is essentially handing out cheat codes. Level too hard, use a cheat code.
As for your statement that "This would only be offered for those "on fire" camps of course, like AC ring, FBSS, things with high resale value and high camping desirability, not for every quest item or fairly desirable item in the game."
How could you possibly believe this would not affect the game through the economy? People would simply sell their free/entitled loot. Better yet, create 5 or 6 extra accounts, barely play them, cash in the tokens, sell for plat.
Hmm hard work...pushing a few buttons and chasing pixels on a screen? :) Dems just pixels...Elmer :D I don't see how this game will be a welfare system. Instant gratification happens in games like Wow that won't be happening here. And the few shouldn't get to hold sway over the many. What happened to doing content at the level appropriate level? Do you think you'll be able to rush through this game and be level 50 in a couple days...don't think so, so why leave out the low level areas where you can gain the faction needed with your home city, do the lowbie armor quests, perception quests...get it done and finished. Take time to smell the roses. Its not about the destination in this game, its about the journey. Least that's what I have been reading. :)
Well, Elmer, have fun clicking a few buttons while chasing your pixels. Enjoy your mobile phone games. Some of us actually put in a serious amount of effort and try to challenge ourselves by working as a team to think through and overcome the content.
It's funny that you claim all the negativity in other games will happen here, but instant gratification will not. Some of us are arguing to do our best to prevent both from happening here.
Read the forum's again, it's not just a few people here that are against welfare and instant gratification. It's the few that are fighting for them.
Don't know where you got anything from this argument about rushing to get through content. Clearly, you are trying to distract from the argument by adding baseless accusations. The argument is about when you are higher level, should you be denied content in an open world game. Not about rushing through and then getting blocked. This argument is about the future of the game, not a few days after release.
Beefcake the one thing that you need to come to terms with is..assuming things about other people. Just to clarify I don't own a mobile phone...I am talking to you from my desktop ...lol the other thing you need to know..is I'm a gamer who likes challenges. Most of the games I have played since the mid 1990s were pvp. Not Hello Kitty. :P And I am concerned about the future of this game or I wouldn't have put down my 1K cold cash.
You might want to read your own post before saying I am making assumptions about people. You are the one that started the issue with calling me Elmer and claiming that I am just chasing pixels while trying to get to 50 in 2 days. You know nothing about my playstyle, yet you start in with the assumptions.
Just putting smiley faces in an insult does not make it acceptable.
That wasn't an insult that was something you were reading into it...because it seems every post you are on the offensive. Why? I don't know the answer to that. But indeed someone above our posts also mentioned mentoring down. (forgot about the mentoring) So with mentoring down you can have your cake and eat it too, be part of the community..cooperative play.. invite folks to group that need that drop..and hey you come off as the Good Guy? Right ? :) Good for your Rep.
Not sure why you feel the need to repeatedly claim that I am not part of the community and not willing to cooperate.
Maybe take your own advice.
Sevens said:Beefcake said:My final point on my way out.
If you can earn loot by doing wha the devs intended you to do, you should get it.
But, if you cannot get the loot doing what was intended, the devs should not have to make it simpler, just so you can get the loot.
If you don't have time or skill to progress, you progress slower, but you can still progress at your own speed. It's that simple. The devs should not program shortcuts just to get you caught up because you have made other choices.
If you need help, find a friend to help. Whenever I am available, I will help you get anything done I can. So will many others.
But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Im lost and or confused...are you talking about mentoring here being the shortcut?
Definitely not, I am strongly for mentoring. That enables higher levels help out lower levels, which should always be done.
What I was referring to as a shortcut is ideas similar to skipping spawn timerst by spawning instances, etc.
Beefcake said:Sevens said:Beefcake said:My final point on my way out.
If you can earn loot by doing wha the devs intended you to do, you should get it.
But, if you cannot get the loot doing what was intended, the devs should not have to make it simpler, just so you can get the loot.
If you don't have time or skill to progress, you progress slower, but you can still progress at your own speed. It's that simple. The devs should not program shortcuts just to get you caught up because you have made other choices.
If you need help, find a friend to help. Whenever I am available, I will help you get anything done I can. So will many others.
But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Im lost and or confused...are you talking about mentoring here being the shortcut?
Definitely not I am strongly for mentoring. That enables higher levels help out lower levels, which should always be done.
What I was referring to as a shortcut is ideas similar to skipping spawn timerst by spawning instances, etc.
Thanks for the clarity (would rather have had a KEI) I am 1000% against instances...I am not in principle against mentoring, but in practice I have never seen it be anything other than a game breaking shortcut to PL'ing where a mentored toon would literally (and I dont mean figuratively) pull an entire zone and kill them all while the mentored toon sits in the corner counting off his dings. If VRI can balance it right...yay! but I dont hold out much hope :(
Sevens said:Beefcake said:Sevens said:Beefcake said:My final point on my way out.
If you can earn loot by doing wha the devs intended you to do, you should get it.
But, if you cannot get the loot doing what was intended, the devs should not have to make it simpler, just so you can get the loot.
If you don't have time or skill to progress, you progress slower, but you can still progress at your own speed. It's that simple. The devs should not program shortcuts just to get you caught up because you have made other choices.
If you need help, find a friend to help. Whenever I am available, I will help you get anything done I can. So will many others.
But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Im lost and or confused...are you talking about mentoring here being the shortcut?
Definitely not I am strongly for mentoring. That enables higher levels help out lower levels, which should always be done.
What I was referring to as a shortcut is ideas similar to skipping spawn timerst by spawning instances, etc.
Thanks for the clarity (would rather have had a KEI) I am 1000% against instances...I am not in principle against mentoring, but in practice I have never seen it be anything other than a game breaking shortcut to PL'ing where a mentored toon would literally (and I dont mean figuratively) pull an entire zone and kill them all while the mentored toon sits in the corner counting off his dings. If VRI can balance it right...yay! but I dont hold out much hope :(
Yeah, that type of mentoring is terrible.
Good mentoring should make a player no more powerful than the max intended for the level you are going down to.
I am sure the devs know the max stats that they intend for level 30. If you mentor down from 50 to 30, you should not be more powerful than the max 30.
Beefcake said:But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Many in this thread have assumed a knowledge of "the intended challenge". Does the intended challenge require competition with other players (having multiple players/groups wanting the same content)? Does the intended challenge simply require defeating the environmental challenge (you beat the mob, you get the loot)? Does the intended challenge require that the content have some risk associated with it (having a chance that you might be killed)? There is no way to know what VR believes the intended challenge is, but I would like to play a game that has a mix of the three.
Unfortunately I believe most of the discussion in this thread has trended towards countering the extremes on either end, rather than addressing the middleground that some have proposed. It's easy to make arguments against the extremes and that just makes it all the easier to start fights.
I would like to see some mechanic that introduces risk to ALL players who are fighting things, regardless of what zone they're in. In a world that is supposed to be filled with danger, it seems like poor design to allow any player to profit without any risk at all. VR has stated time and again that they like risk vs. reward and I would like to see that used as an approach to settling this issue.
Ainadak said:Beefcake said:But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Many in this thread (I believe yourself included) have assumed a knowledge of "the intended challenge". Does the intended challenge require competition with other players (having multiple players/groups wanting the same content)? Does the intended challenge simply require defeating the environmental challenge (you beat the mob, you get the loot)? Does the intended challenge require that the content have some risk associated with it (having a chance that you might be killed)? There is no way to know what VR believes the intended challenge is, but I would like to play a game that has a mix of the three.
Unfortunately I believe most of the discussion in this thread has trended towards countering the extremes on either end, rather than addressing the middleground that some have proposed. It's easy to make arguments against the extremes and that just makes it all the easier to start fights.
I would like to see some mechanic that introduces risk to ALL players who are fighting things, regardless of what zone they're in. In a world that is supposed to be filled with danger, it seems like poor design to allow any player to profit without any risk at all. VR has stated time and again that they like risk vs. reward and I would like to see that used as an approach to settling this issue.
I am a believer in risk vs reward that is how I "grew up" in EQ from the start. Yes for intended challenge...yes for cooperative community where people help each other out to vanquish those challenges together. "taking one for the team" is another thing I have done in the past. It all cements us together against the envirionment ingame. Hoping we have a great community when the time comes, that's where great memories are formed. Cheers for Pantheon! Let's make it the best it can be. :)
Ainadak,
Regarding the challenge assumption, since they have repea6stated they are avoiding instances, I believe it is safe to assume competition is part of the intended challenge.
Overall, I believe are three things you mentioned are intended.
Cannot disagree with the rest of your statement.
Beefcake said:My final point on my way out.
If you can earn loot by doing wha the devs intended you to do, you should get it.
But, if you cannot get the loot doing what was intended, the devs should not have to make it simpler, just so you can get the loot.
If you don't have time or skill to progress, you progress slower, but you can still progress at your own speed. It's that simple. The devs should not program shortcuts just to get you caught up because you have made other choices.
If you need help, find a friend to help. Whenever I am available, I will help you get anything done I can. So will many others.
But don't expect shortcuts that reduce the intended challenge.
Not quite sure who was expecting short cuts...what would those short cuts be? No clue. That's not how I played Meridian 59, EQ, SWG, Daoc, Warhammer etc etc. I am not sure who your audience is that expects shortcuts? Don't think that's even an issue here, far as I know. From what I see of the general audience around here ..most came here expecting a challenging game. I don't expect to hop, skip, and jump over content and then expect the Devs to give me a helping hand. I don't want to be the audience in the back row..I want to be in the middle of the fray..as much as possible. No cookie handouts..exclamation marks over npc heads...ghost trails to find my corpse. I did it the old fashioned way in Eq..and pretty much expect the same thing..but probably with updated methods according to what the Devs see fit. Pantheon will be a challenging, fun game in my view. At least that is my wish, and why I signed on in 2014. :)
OK, solve the whole issue by down-leveling. If a group of level 50s go in to fight a level 30 boss, the group is down-leveled to level 30. It's an even fight always (except for groups lower than level 30- they can try if they wish, best of luck).
Morr said:OK, solve the whole issue by down-leveling. If a group of level 50s go in to fight a level 30 boss, the group is down-leveled to level 30. It's an even fight always (except for groups lower than level 30- they can try if they wish, best of luck).
I threw up in my mouth a little.
Morr said:OK, solve the whole issue by down-leveling. If a group of level 50s go in to fight a level 30 boss, the group is down-leveled to level 30. It's an even fight always (except for groups lower than level 30- they can try if they wish, best of luck).
That would be mentoring..but if I remember you need at least one actual level 30 (or level appropriate) to do that (don't know if that's how mentoring would work with Pantheon of course). Could be a guild that's helping out one of the lower level guildies.
itvar said:Wellspring said:Agreed. TLC will make the problem it is supposedly "solving", way worse.
If you can no longer loot a valuable item after a certain level, then it will become even more contested by players, not less...
That argument would have some merit if it were not for the fact that pantheon will have a mentoring system. Mentoring lower level players will effectively lower your level, thus making said item attainable again. And you get to help out newer players to boot. Everybody wins.
No TLC, and people like me come along on their raid mains and roflstomp over everything.
That's a good point. I forgot about the mentor system.
CanadinaXegony said:A lot of us can't dedicate the time we used to..like back in 1999, just the way things work, doesn't diminish our game knowledge or capabilities. Doesn't mean that those who can spend 24/7 camped somewhere are more skilled or knowledgeable than the rest of us either. I want a challenging game with a learning curve. What I don't want when it comes to epic quests (mentioned before) is that other players can dictate to me what and what I can't do. This happened on Xegony...epic quest spawns sat on by one particular "uber" guild for up to a year. I spent that year trying to find a way to get an invite...got the invite for Venril Sathir..and one of their members ninjaed the drop I needed. So again, I will be paying my subscription and if others can finish their epic weapon quest..so should I. I helped on every epic spawn I could, for clerics, and every other class. I think trying for a whole year...should count for effort. I don't think anyone should be entitled to block you because they can. That doesn't mean they are better than anyone else...they had the guild that could sit on these spawns day in and day out......nobody should have to go begging hat in hand only to get disappointed anyways. Put yourself in those shoes and walk in them for a bit. And before someone comes out with the word whine....eat it :P
You gotta be kidding me, based on your comment "Put yourself in those shoes and walk in them for a bit. "....somehow you imply that others, including myself have never had to deal with dissapointment in an MMO? You do realize we played the same game right?
As for this comment "So again, I will be paying my subscription and if others can finish their epic weapon quest..so should I."....Sorry, you pay for the right to play the game, you dont pay for the right to win or experience all of the content available.
I really don't see how your comments about your epic and how much it sucked to get in on the "Venril Sathir" kill have anything to do with Over Leveled Farmers? Were they gearing up their own clerics? If so, then they have the right to be there just as much as you did. Were they selling the rights to takes out Venril Sathir? If that is the case, then it is something that GMs should of gotten involved with. I do realize that EQ GMs, exspecially later on, were not the greatest at preventing guilds from menopolizing some content, but thats not the point. The point is that the issue you were talking about is a player issue, not a mechanical. In this situation, how would preventing a higher level from taking out Venril Sathir really helped and at what level do we consider a player as being to high for his loot? Last I knew clerics were still getting their epics, are we going to say they no longer get the rights to do so because of some TLC? Somehow I think you would be just as upset if you outleveled the content and still couldent get what you wanted because of the TLC.
I am all for an active Guide/GM system that prevents players from being a$$hats, but you cannot always code out bad behavior without destroying other aspects of the game. What I am against is mechanics that are broad sweeping such as TLC, which are nothing more then preventing you from "whining" (Sorry I had you, you asked for it in your last post, let me add a =P, to make it all better) about someone getting the mob, or loot that you are somehow entitled to. There is a fine line thou between preventing people from perma-camping your epic mob and setting it up so that everyone gets the participation prize.
Morr said:OK, solve the whole issue by down-leveling. If a group of level 50s go in to fight a level 30 boss, the group is down-leveled to level 30. It's an even fight always (except for groups lower than level 30- they can try if they wish, best of luck).
NO.
No more gimmicky crap.
No more artificial BS.
No more invisible walls.
No more roads to hell paved with good intentions.
Mentoring is great to let you TEAM with lower players, but it should not be forced on you when you go into a lower level zone.
There is no GOOD reason to not let me go buck in a low level zone. Sometimes you just need to take the edge off. Other times, you need crafting mats. Sometimes you just want revenge on some named.
All can/should be done without being an ****** AND without creating some system to stop you.
I am not sure how this derailed into small arguments over opinions and mentoring, but I will give you all the chance to bring it back oin topic and keep it there otherwise the thread will be closed. We have multiple topics on Mentoring and Instancing, so please take the discussion to those threads if you desire as this topic is:
Preempt Over Levelled* Farmers.
*added an L for correct spelling
Morr said:OK, solve the whole issue by down-leveling. If a group of level 50s go in to fight a level 30 boss, the group is down-leveled to level 30. It's an even fight always (except for groups lower than level 30- they can try if they wish, best of luck).
If it really becomes a problem I think we can think a little outside the box here. So here's just an idea I'll spitball.
Previously the devs have said that a boss mob that is attacked by too many players or players of a higher level would maybe flee or call for help. Instead of downleveling the group, simply spawn it some help of equal level to the players that are attacking it. BUT, to not slaughter lowbies and keep the system from being a grief magnet with highers trolling lowbies, make those mobs only target the players of that level, and the spawned mob/s drops no loot. They are simply the beforementioned backup.
Just my 2 copper suggestion.
Thanks Kilsin
I think I am partly responsible for this. Seems my posting an idea here and there to see what might help rustled some things, which in turn rustled some other things and here we are.
Apologies everyone, as this was not my intention at all.
I really just wanted to do something to maybe help the dev team and see if we could all crowdsource up something to ease VR's burden
