I did a quick search on this to see if there were going to be any faction based facets in the game. Lots of speculation so far but nothing alluding to the what will be in the game. I am asking due to the class structures listed on the game site. Will those be limited to a sudo faction based quest line or regional questing? Good vs evil has been a mainstay in MMO’s from the beginning and I am curious to see how VR goes about this.
Also wanted to start a discussion on this to see where everyone sits on this type of game playing style.
Ox
I like it as long as it doesnt get out of hand. A dozen or so factions or hell 20 is fine. But 40 or 80 or 100 is crazy town. Also I do think there should be an overal good vs evil. So some factions get along better than others. Lastly I would prefer that factions be meaningful. Like you dont just flit from one to another. Maybe there are a few you can max out at the same time but not all. And most importantly some motivation to stay loyal. Because if Im taking faction hits and its just a number............ who cares. And if these 3 factions offer cool quest/dungeon/raid numbers 1, 2 and 3. Why would I stay loyal to the boring faction that gives me a achievement trophy. Also the lores need to make sense. If I max out this faction why cant I join this other faction? Are they ancient enemies? Do the leaders have a petty rivalry over a woman? Are 2 factions being set against eachother as part of political maneuvering that benefits a 3rd faction? Opposing god? By the same token why do some factions play nice together? etc.
I like the idea of factions in regards to not letting an evil Skar race enter an Elf city or something like that. Faction grinding can also be a route available if you really wanted to. What I don't want to see is faction affecting player interactions. Basically, I want to make sure that anyone in a guild can play whatever race they want and not have to worry if the Guild is on the same faction.
streeg said:I like the idea of factions in regards to not letting an evil Skar race enter an Elf city or something like that. Faction grinding can also be a route available if you really wanted to. What I don't want to see is faction affecting player interactions. Basically, I want to make sure that anyone in a guild can play whatever race they want and not have to worry if the Guild is on the same faction.
I also like the idea of factions as it was handled in EQ. There were so many different factions that you had to worry about over time that you really started to think about how your character was going to be seen by other NPCs and you ended up caring an awful lot about faction hits. Coming back to a system like that would be awesome.
I also agree that guilds shouldn't be on a given faction and that players should be able to join a guild no matter what race or faction they were on and they should be able to play with other guild members. But as that was the case in EQ I don't think Brad is likely to change that particular mechanic. I hated in WoW that you had to pick a faction and could never play with players on the other faction. It just made the game world feel so much smaller.
So yeah if the faction system is like EQ or Vanguard I'd be happy.
I agree with others - Faction shouldn't determine player to player choices in regards to grouping and guilding. The barrier of having to run through zones or cities that you're unwanted in is just the right amount of danger and wariness, no need to add to that.
I do hope faction is complex and full of depth. I hope there is a reason for faction, and not just for the sake of adding it. If it makes sense, add as much faction building as your little hearts desire.
Amsai said:I like it as long as it doesnt get out of hand. A dozen or so factions or hell 20 is fine. But 40 or 80 or 100 is crazy town.
I kinda disagree. I think it's important that each race, playable or not, have a definable personality and with that a measurable and predictable reaction to a particular character, the character's race, and the character's personal history. Just because the gnomes like me doesnt mean that the elves should, or the halfings should, or the ogres should, etc. Considering only the playable races you've exceeded the dozen-or-so threshold. Now consider whether a dragon should think differently of me than the orcs, and those differently that the lizarmen, and those differently than the sirens.
My collective actions should be reflected if the world is to be more believable. Otherwise you fall into scenarios in which the humans appear to be wholly unfazed by your apparent attempt at genocide toward dwarves. You also preclude really interesting choices of gameplay that have far reaching consequences for what else will be easily accessible to you. The choice between the Coldain and the Kromzek in Velious is an EQ example. I loved that there was a choice and a consequence. It gave your actions meaning.
Feyshtey said:Amsai said:I like it as long as it doesnt get out of hand. A dozen or so factions or hell 20 is fine. But 40 or 80 or 100 is crazy town.
I kinda disagree. I think it's important that each race, playable or not, have a definable personality and with that a measurable and predictable reaction to a particular character, the character's race, and the character's personal history. Just because the gnomes like me doesnt mean that the elves should, or the halfings should, or the ogres should, etc. Considering only the playable races you've exceeded the dozen-or-so threshold. Now consider whether a dragon should think differently of me than the orcs, and those differently that the lizarmen, and those differently than the sirens.
My collective actions should be reflected if the world is to be more believable. Otherwise you fall into scenarios in which the humans appear to be wholly unfazed by your apparent attempt at genocide toward dwarves. You also preclude really interesting choices of gameplay that have far reaching consequences for what else will be easily accessible to you. The choice between the Coldain and the Kromzek in Velious is an EQ example. I loved that there was a choice and a consequence. It gave your actions meaning.
You make a good argument. My biggest problem would be making it too confusing. But I definitely love depth! Maybe keep it to 20 or so factions but really really flesh them out with high detail on every possible interaction?
Feyshtey said:Amsai said:I like it as long as it doesnt get out of hand. A dozen or so factions or hell 20 is fine. But 40 or 80 or 100 is crazy town.
I kinda disagree. I think it's important that each race, playable or not, have a definable personality and with that a measurable and predictable reaction to a particular character, the character's race, and the character's personal history. Just because the gnomes like me doesnt mean that the elves should, or the halfings should, or the ogres should, etc. Considering only the playable races you've exceeded the dozen-or-so threshold. Now consider whether a dragon should think differently of me than the orcs, and those differently that the lizarmen, and those differently than the sirens.
My collective actions should be reflected if the world is to be more believable. Otherwise you fall into scenarios in which the humans appear to be wholly unfazed by your apparent attempt at genocide toward dwarves. You also preclude really interesting choices of gameplay that have far reaching consequences for what else will be easily accessible to you. The choice between the Coldain and the Kromzek in Velious is an EQ example. I loved that there was a choice and a consequence. It gave your actions meaning.
I understand the number piece but my question is why? Is there issues when you have to many factions? I have not encountered that before.
Good discussion guys!
Ox
This is an area where options, I believe, are good. The more the better. Make them convoluted, numerous, and hard to navigate. What is "faction" but government? It's diplimacy and intrigue in politics. There isn't much that is more complicated than politics.
I can understand the hesitancy of wanting multiple (60-100) kinds of factions. It's daunting, and may seem overboard. There's a fear of it becoming a monotonous faction grind througout the game. However, when it comes to wanting realism - or as much as one can have in an MMO - I believe faction is an area where it MUST be complicated and, yes, sometimes tiresome. A topic to ask your fellow players about, to collect ideas and strategies and the pros and cons of this faction and that faction.
Open those faction flood gates.
Tralyan said:This is an area where options, I believe, are good. The more the better. Make them convoluted, numerous, and hard to navigate. What is "faction" but government? It's diplimacy and intrigue in politics. There isn't much that is more complicated than politics.
I can understand the hesitancy of wanting multiple (60-100) kinds of factions. It's daunting, and may seem overboard. There's a fear of it becoming a monotonous faction grind througout the game. However, when it comes to wanting realism - or as much as one can have in an MMO - I believe faction is an area where it MUST be complicated and, yes, sometimes tiresome. A topic to ask your fellow players about, to collect ideas and strategies and the pros and cons of this faction and that faction.
Open those faction flood gates.
I agree. Factions should be in-depth, complex and require discussion with other players for their pros and cons. For instance you might want to support one specific faction that opens up a whole new quest line but by supporting that faction you are closing off two other quest lines so the decision you make must be weighed against the pros and cons. Obviously this means that the first players who happen upon those factions won't know what the choices are. They'll have to make a blind decision because no one has reached that level in the game before but I believe if there are pros to every choice players won't feel too disappointed (they will obviously all have cons as well).
One point that hasn't been mentioned is that factions also improve the role play aspect of the game. If you want to role play a good elf you can by supporting good factions likewise if you want to role play an evil elf then you can by supporting evil factions. There could also be neutral factions as well for those who don't want to commit to one side or the other. But factions really help with the whole role play aspect of the game.
I love the fact that you could randomly get smacked in a town you thought you were perfectly safe, simply because you had completely hosed a faction you didnt understand. It might have really pissed you off at the time, but you sure as hell remember it to this day right? So it was meaningful to you! And that kind of thing made the game experience just a little bit different for you than it did for someone else. It made it (closer) to being catered to you as an individual rather than a cookie cutter experience like every other player.
Feyshtey said:I love the fact that you could randomly get smacked in a town you thought you were perfectly safe, simply because you had completely hosed a faction you didnt understand. It might have really pissed you off at the time, but you sure as hell remember it to this day right? So it was meaningful to you! And that kind of thing made the game experience just a little bit different for you than it did for someone else. It made it (closer) to being catered to you as an individual rather than a cookie cutter experience like every other player.
+1
Tralyan said:This is an area where options, I believe, are good. The more the better. Make them convoluted, numerous, and hard to navigate. What is "faction" but government? It's diplimacy and intrigue in politics. There isn't much that is more complicated than politics.
I can understand the hesitancy of wanting multiple (60-100) kinds of factions. It's daunting, and may seem overboard. There's a fear of it becoming a monotonous faction grind througout the game. However, when it comes to wanting realism - or as much as one can have in an MMO - I believe faction is an area where it MUST be complicated and, yes, sometimes tiresome. A topic to ask your fellow players about, to collect ideas and strategies and the pros and cons of this faction and that faction.
Open those faction flood gates.
Exactly.
It seems some people may be a bit confused as to what exactly factions are. Factions represent the preferences, politics and beliefs of the inhabitants of the game world. Factions are what add the depth to a virtual world (hence the reason most mmos lack any semblance of depth compared to EQ) and consequences for your actions. Instead of the world being static, the way the world and its inhabitants view you changes both for good AND bad based on your decisions. Each time you choose to help one person, it increases or decreases your reputation with other parties that share similar or opposing views.
In short, you can't possibly have enough factions. That is like saying I only want so much depth to my world; that you only want the world to be a little realistic, but not too realistic.
If the Pantheon survey sent out last year was at all indicative of Visionary Realms' intentions with factions, there will be a ton.
That should give you a general idea.
I love factions. Certain actions should have serious and semi-permanent consequences. In other words, you shouldn't be able to kill a king of one faction and turn around and easily grind back into good standing with that faction. I think a series of lengthy quests should be necessary to get back to a point where you aren't attacked on sight .
Thanakos said:I love factions. Certain actions should have serious and semi-permanent consequences. In other words, you shouldn't be able to kill a king of one faction and turn around and easily grind back into good standing with that faction. I think a series of lengthy quests should be necessary to get back to a point where you aren't attacked on sight .
I think if you kill a king of one faction you're done... there's no coming back from that. Can the Freys get back in good standing with the Starks by trying to help them now? (sure hope y'all are GoT fans) I don't think it would matter. The Starks wouldn't even want their help. There should be some faction hits that are permanent. It would have to be obvious that what you were about to do would have serious faction repercussions but it should be there.
The lore talks about some of the gods of the different races going through descension (losing a level heheh) and going from a god to a high mortal. The dwarven king Khazas did this and rules the dwarves. If, for example, you were to somehow kill Khazas, I think you should be kill on sight to dwarves for the rest of your days.
When it comes to our starting faction, which races hate you either due to race, class or religion... those you should be able to influence through your actions. For example, it may be terribly difficult to overcome the prejudice the Elves have for Skar but it should be possible.
The more factions the better. The thought of puzzling out all the different connections is exciting. :)
IMO, I think Faction Based Play is the single greatest reason Everquest was great & felt bigger than you.
The sense of the world being much bigger than you, and even much bigger than a band of people.. the world wins. An insurmountable force and an uber constant... going on while you sleep, while you dream, while you search... and in this world, you come to find you have enemies & hoards of them. That you can make friend, or foe.. based on your own actions..?
The way brad introduced factions into EQ was brilliant. Because the of the depth of it, and the story behind the waring factions.... that may, or may not be neutral to you, or other third parties. I expect more of the same, but with much great intricacies and depth. I think brad may steal a little off the VG's diplomacy mechanic, & incorporate it into PRF, as a much more dynamic faction system (AA's for factions..?) . No single one person, would ever have the same level of faction.. it would truely be a living breathing world.
Even if you pass through a forest, that you once fed the hungry squirrel pups at... and when you return on your travels they bring you nuts, because you have built up report with them.. lol
Hieromonk said:IMO, I think Faction Based Play is the single greatest reason Everquest was great & felt bigger than you.
The sense of the world being much bigger than you, and even much bigger than a band of people.. the world wins. An insurmountable force and an uber constant... going on while you sleep, while you dream, while you search... and in this world, you come to find you have enemies & hoards of them. That you can make friend, or foe.. based on your own actions..?
The way brad introduced factions into EQ was brilliant. Because the of the depth of it, and the story behind the waring factions.... that may, or may not be neutral to you, or other third parties. I expect more of the same, but with much great intricacies and depth. I think brad may steal a little off the VG's diplomacy mechanic, & incorporate it into PRF, as a much more dynamic faction system (AA's for factions..?) . No single one person, would ever have the same level of faction.. it would truely be a living breathing world.
Even if you pass through a forest, that you once fed the hungry squirrel pups at... and when you return on your travels they bring you nuts, because you have built up report with them.. lol
I agree but its Bill Trost whom we have to thank for the EQ faction system.
The prospect of many factions sounds very interesting indeed. Having to choose your side and who you want to work with. Working your way up the ladder in one of the major public factions or perhaps opting to be part of one who controls the madness from behind the scenes..... I like!
Hieromonk said:IMO, I think Faction Based Play is the single greatest reason Everquest was great & felt bigger than you.
The sense of the world being much bigger than you, and even much bigger than a band of people.. the world wins. An insurmountable force and an uber constant... going on while you sleep, while you dream, while you search... and in this world, you come to find you have enemies & hoards of them. That you can make friend, or foe.. based on your own actions..?
The way brad introduced factions into EQ was brilliant. Because the of the depth of it, and the story behind the waring factions.... that may, or may not be neutral to you, or other third parties. I expect more of the same, but with much great intricacies and depth. I think brad may steal a little off the VG's diplomacy mechanic, & incorporate it into PRF, as a much more dynamic faction system (AA's for factions..?) . No single one person, would ever have the same level of faction.. it would truely be a living breathing world.
Even if you pass through a forest, that you once fed the hungry squirrel pups at... and when you return on your travels they bring you nuts, because you have built up report with them.. lol
Great post! EQ really put this sort of dynamic into play. Its is tht feeling if I do something wrong or by accident it can make a mess of things.
I am also wondering about faction hard locks once you are comitted.
Ox
So we have talked about this alot on our Shows and we would love to see Faction be more than just your Grind. And with the latest article explaining some of the questing ideas, i see a bright future for Faction also being part of the questing system too.
If we look at the multiple choice dialog questing idea i could see faction also play a role within that system to. Rather than just depending on your response to either generate a more freindly approach or negative approach Faction comes into the mix also.
I would like to see Faction influence our Choices all the time and then giving us choices to make to unlock further oppotunitys dending on our current alignment regarding the tyoical Factions Good/Neutral/Evil so if you were generally good and all of a sudden you move more towards neutral or evil new horizons unlock themself giving you new quests and adventures to explore. Also add faction to NPCs in general so make it so that only during the night or day or whatever certain quests and dialogs can be approached. That only appeal to the Good / Neutral or Evil Faction orientation of your alignment.
So even if i am genuinely Evil if i play "nice" i will have other options to explore and adventure on.
But also there has to be a balance and a restriction to that only the Races general alignment can recieve certain adventures or quest or rewards even if i as an Evil Race played nice that certain Quest/Adventure will never be offered to me. Keeps each Race and alignment still genuine.
Another thought is maybe try and approach the Faction system in general like this we all know there is good / neutral / Evil alignments. What if every Races starts out as neutral towards the environment and outside influences, but still has that genuine Evil / Good/ Neutral alignment to their respected city meaning if i am an Ogre in my city it is still all about Evil and in that city my choices are based mainly through evil and maybe sometimes neutral but if i want to enter the Halflings City i will still be seen as Evil
So make the Faction Alignment for the Races in general a "conscious system" My inside tells me in this situation to be a good orgre but around the bend this time its telling me to be Evil.
there is so much that can be done, it is gonna be fun to see where this takes us.
Yarnila said:...Another thought is maybe try and approach the Faction system in general like this we all know there is good / neutral / Evil alignments. What if every Races starts out as neutral towards the environment and outside influences, but still has that genuine Evil / Good/ Neutral alignment to their respected city meaning if i am an Ogre in my city it is still all about Evil and in that city my choices are based mainly through evil and maybe sometimes neutral but if i want to enter the Halflings City i will still be seen as Evil
So make the Faction Alignment for the Races in general a "conscious system" My inside tells me in this situation to be a good orgre but around the bend this time its telling me to be Evil.
there is so much that can be done, it is gonna be fun to see where this takes us.
Yep, I like this approach. If you think about it, no one is born evil or good. Although it will be difficult to persuade the good folk that as an ogre, you were abandoned as a child in the forest only to be raised by a kindly ranger, the option shold be there to do so.
Thus seeing the rare ogre in the good city is possible but only by convincing the city folk that your intentions towards them are good and that you will protect them.
I like the idea of being a rarity in a specific city through faction grinding and tributes to the king/queen of a region. Adds spice and intrigue to the game.
I don't mind factions at all and I'd definitely want them meaningful, however I don't want my first hour or two of gameplay to be consumed with the daily quest faction grind. I'm not a fan of dailies. I like to log in and see what's going on and go do something different. Having to do one of the same set of 10 quests or so on a daily basis is a snore. If we need to work factions, that's great. If we need to do them from a rote script that takes quests from a pool on a daily basis, not so much. They got tedious after a while to me. And by the time there were several factions and several things that needed attended to daily, /yawn. The first hour or so when logging in gets eaten by those daily tasks. I have enough things I need to do daily in life, when I get the time to play I want to play.
Cromulent said:streeg said:I like the idea of factions in regards to not letting an evil Skar race enter an Elf city or something like that. Faction grinding can also be a route available if you really wanted to. What I don't want to see is faction affecting player interactions. Basically, I want to make sure that anyone in a guild can play whatever race they want and not have to worry if the Guild is on the same faction.
I also like the idea of factions as it was handled in EQ. There were so many different factions that you had to worry about over time that you really started to think about how your character was going to be seen by other NPCs and you ended up caring an awful lot about faction hits. Coming back to a system like that would be awesome.
I also agree that guilds shouldn't be on a given faction and that players should be able to join a guild no matter what race or faction they were on and they should be able to play with other guild members. But as that was the case in EQ I don't think Brad is likely to change that particular mechanic. I hated in WoW that you had to pick a faction and could never play with players on the other faction. It just made the game world feel so much smaller.
So yeah if the faction system is like EQ or Vanguard I'd be happy.
In WoW it made sense and was necessary though. WoW had a decent PVP system (at one point) and having separate factions that never mingled created a very important us vs them mentality. If you allow the sides to play together, etc, it degrades that feel and lessens the PVP experience. Look at sports, people tend to support their team and "hate" other teams, no different than factions.