Arksien said:@Krixus Wow amazing post. We should be friends. No but seriously, when this game goes live, lets play together.
Also @Raidan thanks for those links! I hadn't actually heard of the EQ paradox before, and it puts the pieces together for everything I've ever "known" about my experience in EQ, and why I hate WoW/new MMOs so much.
This is such a great series of posts in this thread!
Let's do it.
I can agree with most of this. Class uniquness I might throw Age of Conan up there with EQ. It did a very good job of making each class fell and behave in unique ways.
EQ had plenty of flaws but it also got a lot right. Players wanted things easier and developers gave it to them - over time the genre has more or less evolved in to just another video game where, eventually, you win and you win on terms favourable to you.
Coming from UO what stunned me about EQ was the sheer scope and ambitiousness of what they accomplished. To go from UO, which was a nice game, and I wouldn't want to take anything away from it, to EQ was revolutionaty. So many concepts and ideas were created in EQ. To me that was it's magic.
Kayd said:Coming from UO what stunned me about EQ was the sheer scope and ambitiousness of what they accomplished. To go from UO, which was a nice game, and I wouldn't want to take anything away from it, to EQ was revolutionaty. So many concepts and ideas were created in EQ. To me that was it's magic.
While UO had some great features (even some that I wished EQ could of incoporated), it was really a huge jump past UO. Even from the PvP perspective, it was way ahead. Class based combat made for a much more diverse and strategic scenarios, and highly valuable contested items/content gave us legitimate reasons to both fight as well as construct a player run system of law and order. It was next level for sure.
@op Amazing post! :) - This is what we want!
Krixus said:......
You could attack anything:
Accidently auto attack the banker? That sucks. Bet you didn't do it again. This is a real world. No rails, no off limits. No special rules because you're in a city. I remember wanting to know what the Priest Of Discord hit for. So I tagged him and feigned. It was awesome. 300 something, btw.
......
Or you hadn't learned about remapping your keys, and while trying to talk to an NPC, forget to enter the text box before typing, and then you get to that "A" key.
Krixus said:Liav said:I could literally copy & paste this, swap "EQ" with "vanilla WoW", and get nearly identical responses from a much larger crowd, albeit likely not on this forum.
EQ was a great game and was a trendsetter. It had its merits and its flaws, just like any other game. Being arguably the first game of its time to "really" take off lends a lot to our perception of the quality of it.
TL;DR: Another post praising every single aspect of EQ as god-tier without even a passing mention of its flaws.
First of all, I know my post was long, but if you're not going to read it, please don't bother replying next time.
Secondly, I mentioned negative characteristics of EQ multiple times.
And I have to ask, what did you expect from a post titled "Defining the magic of EQ"?
If you want to make a thread about what EQ did poorly, I will happily chime in.
No need to get defensive Krixus and no need to tell people what not to do.
I never played EQ so I can't comment on whether it was greatest game ever or worst, but after playing VG as my first and having the same person that created that and EQ I can guess it was good. I do want a MMO that is challenging though I base mine off VG and I can tell you I like the Quest hubs in it and the mini map. I played it for 2 yrs and I made like 12 alts and I still never did all of the quests or even go to every little place in VG. All the classes where unique and almost all wanted. I guess I will leave it at that because like you I loved VG, but I hope they make Pantheon that blows ever old MMO out there out of the water. Be it EQ/VG inspired but not copied. I also understand that you probably don't want EQ copied either, but with the crew we got making this I think we will be in safe hands. Nice post and it even gives me fond memories of VG.
Nice post!.
along those lines I remember I was not able to get groups in Qeynos and Blackburrow was too hard, and I did not yet have the invis spell as a mage. so an Elder barbarian shaman invised me and guided me through blackburrow to Halas.
There were a bunch of players within my level range there and I was able to find good groups and make friends. I was level 5 and got up to level 9- about 9-12( real time- casual play) weeks in Halas. No Malachite in Halas, so I took it as something I had to deal with also learned about alchohol tolerance (har-har). I got to 9 and when higher level players breezed through Halas, I then also asked for an invis and escort, - so I could GET my invis spell in Qeynos- lol.
Even then the invis duration was random, you could never really count on it- except if your divinatio was up, if I recall. Heh, I swear my character ran just a bit faster in panic when , as I was running past all those gnolls in blackburrow, not even half way through and the message " you feel yourself starting to appear.." it was not safe to stop and recast, I had to keep running! heard the howls start and ran for my life- I couldn't see! (erudite) and those last sconces on the cave walls were my only points of hope- but I made it!
Brought back such good memories. Great read.
Hell even the bad times were memorable. I remember the servers were always prone to going down and we would use these time to have guild meetings in the launcher chat system. These types of things created real bonds and true friendships.
The community was so different in that game. Social consequences mattered; I got a ‘good talking to’ by my guild leader after she had received a complaint from another guild about a supposed infraction of mine. I don’t even remember the incident but I do remember the talking to. I was genuinely concerned about what would happen to me socially in a game. I’ve only experienced that level of immersion in one other game, early SWG.
I can only attribute this to what the OP mentioned and that is the long, slow pace of leveling and being truly bound to your character and your characters reputation.
BEST post Ever. Exactly my exact thoughts. EQ had magic that NO other game can match.
If the game does have maps, which you know they will not leave maps out (they say you can turn them off if you don't want them...)
Have maps like EQ2. Blacked out until you walk every inch of it to clear the black off the map. They should be so blacked out that I don't even know what zones are connected to it until I find them.
I have been watching Vanguard videos to learn about that game for comparison to EQ1. There is one more thing EQ had that I feel added a little magic.
I started out as Dark elf. I was in an underground city and when I surfaced for the first time, the land was so dark I could only see about 50 meters in front of my character.
The innothule swamp, same way, Feerrott, same etc. I couldn't tell how big the "zone" was. I couldn't see the 'other side'.
It was mysterious. It made me Discover how big the zone was. not just See how big the zone is.
In Vanguard it started out in the outdoors, sunny, (isle of dawn). you could see trees and a far away landscape. No mystery. Just quest givers and mobs lined up for hand holding you thru a tutorial.
Use game mechanics like weather or magic to keep the mystery. I shouldn't be able to see mountains 10 miles away all the time. It also makes the game run better for some.
I will build a new gaming system a week before this hits, so I am not worried about being able to run the game. I just want that perpetual darkness, fog, rain, etc to create mystery.
Can we please have the simple con system from EQ1. Why do we need yellow con with one circle or arrow up, and a yellow with 2 circles and 2 arrows up etc. Just go from Gray to red. Simple.
If it's not broken, don't Fix it.
ignore negative nancy's that have the attention span of a gnat and have to do TL;DR's ... they won't play this game long.
I stumbled across this video a while ago and I thought it perfectly articulated a major part of what made EQ so special. I've tried many times over the years to put into words how EQ was different from other MMOs but I can never quite put my finger on it. But these guys nailed it.
The video isn't specifically about EQ. It's about quest design in MMOs, and uses EQ as an example of good quest design. I think makes some excellent points that I hope the devs have already taken into consideration.
EDIT: Video won't embed. Here's the link...
Krixus Thank You. Thank you for bring back the best gaming years of my life, if only in words and memories. EQ was for alot of us the start of what gaming should be and is. It's about making games fun and difficult to play. Oh how many weeks did I spend waiting for a one eye'd giant to drop a certain ring that i needed to get those boots. Those boots that turned a wizzard into a quad kiting machine. The next day not having to buy the SOW Pots so that I could have speed.
Brad and Visionary Realms - thank you for making Pantheon. Making a game that is not devoted to PVP/RvR/WvW. Thank you for making a game that everyone else wants to play. A game that will force people again to work together not against each other. I have been playing Archeage now for over a year and I have collected so much Salt that the local DOT is coming to my house to get Salt to put on the Snow/Icey roads this winter.
Typhon said:I stumbled across this video a while ago and I thought it perfectly articulated a major part of what made EQ so special. I've tried many times over the years to put into words how EQ was different from other MMOs but I can never quite put my finger on it. But these guys nailed it.
The video isn't specifically about EQ. It's about quest design in MMOs, and uses EQ as an example of good quest design. I think makes some excellent points that I hope the devs have already taken into consideration.
EDIT: Video won't embed. Here's the link...
Thank you for that link. I hope Brad and the Gang think like this guy. Or offer him a job. I linked part II and I really really like these 2 videos. They showcase how to add quests, the RIGHT way.
Kecho said:Krixus Thank You. Thank you for bring back the best gaming years of my life, if only in words and memories. EQ was for alot of us the start of what gaming should be and is. It's about making games fun and difficult to play. Oh how many weeks did I spend waiting for a one eye'd giant to drop a certain ring that i needed to get those boots. Those boots that turned a wizzard into a quad kiting machine. The next day not having to buy the SOW Pots so that I could have speed.
Brad and Visionary Realms - thank you for making Pantheon. Making a game that is not devoted to PVP/RvR/WvW. Thank you for making a game that everyone else wants to play. A game that will force people again to work together not against each other. I have been playing Archeage now for over a year and I have collected so much Salt that the local DOT is coming to my house to get Salt to put on the Snow/Icey roads this winter.
I'm just really really happy that there are people like me out there.
Medjai said:Typhon said:I stumbled across this video a while ago and I thought it perfectly articulated a major part of what made EQ so special. I've tried many times over the years to put into words how EQ was different from other MMOs but I can never quite put my finger on it. But these guys nailed it.
The video isn't specifically about EQ. It's about quest design in MMOs, and uses EQ as an example of good quest design. I think makes some excellent points that I hope the devs have already taken into consideration.
EDIT: Video won't embed. Here's the link...
Thank you for that link. I hope Brad and the Gang think like this guy. Or offer him a job. I linked part II and I really really like these 2 videos. They showcase how to add quests, the RIGHT way.
I've watched dozens of their videos. They are full of game design gold. I really hope with videos like those so accessible to developers, that it leads to better games in the future. Design like we used to have back when people didn't have to teach what was common sense.
Medjai said:BEST post Ever. Exactly my exact thoughts. EQ had magic that NO other game can match.
If the game does have maps, which you know they will not leave maps out (they say you can turn them off if you don't want them...)
Have maps like EQ2. Blacked out until you walk every inch of it to clear the black off the map. They should be so blacked out that I don't even know what zones are connected to it until I find them.
I have been watching Vanguard videos to learn about that game for comparison to EQ1. There is one more thing EQ had that I feel added a little magic.
I started out as Dark elf. I was in an underground city and when I surfaced for the first time, the land was so dark I could only see about 50 meters in front of my character.
The innothule swamp, same way, Feerrott, same etc. I couldn't tell how big the "zone" was. I couldn't see the 'other side'.
It was mysterious. It made me Discover how big the zone was. not just See how big the zone is.
In Vanguard it started out in the outdoors, sunny, (isle of dawn). you could see trees and a far away landscape. No mystery. Just quest givers and mobs lined up for hand holding you thru a tutorial.
Use game mechanics like weather or magic to keep the mystery. I shouldn't be able to see mountains 10 miles away all the time. It also makes the game run better for some.
I will build a new gaming system a week before this hits, so I am not worried about being able to run the game. I just want that perpetual darkness, fog, rain, etc to create mystery.
Can we please have the simple con system from EQ1. Why do we need yellow con with one circle or arrow up, and a yellow with 2 circles and 2 arrows up etc. Just go from Gray to red. Simple.
If it's not broken, don't Fix it.
ignore negative nancy's that have the attention span of a gnat and have to do TL;DR's ... they won't play this game long.
Just to correct some of what you said about VG Medjai Isle of dawn didn't get put into Vanguard until atleast a 1 1/2 after the game was released. I started a lesser giant DK in the lesser giant home town. It was not hand holding and actually hard to group with my brother he died a couple of times trying to get to me. Vg's dark elfs did start above ground but most of their home city was under ground. I do believe all races started above ground though. I don't even think there were rifts for fast travel until about 6 months in. Even with the addition of the rifts you had to get to 1 and unlock them and even then you had to be the right lvl to go to certain ones. I did like how Vg didn't have persay zones you just crossed the line and sometimes laged out to desk top run through a few mobs and might have even died. Just for so more info to look into to VG they have an emmulator going (not finished) for VG. Though they added a few things from when I left VG but would definatley encourage you to try it out. They have the info some where here on the forums to get to it. They put IOD in to make it easier for people that wanted their hands held to try and save the game.
I think what people forget sometimes is that games are a form of art. What matters is the overall experience. I've played many diverse MMORPGs and enjoyed many of them. The ones that stand out to me, even the ones that may not have been as successful such as AC, were that they went in their own direction. In many respects this could be said of Wow, they didn't set out to make an EQ clone, or at least not exactly. They knew the kind of games blizzard made and they knew EQ and they tried to make their own vision out of the EQ model. They were successful to the extent that they clearly differentiated themselves and playing Wow did have a certain magic of it's own.
This, more than anything is what Pantheon needs to do to be succesul, make something unique in the mold that they want to make it. Ultimately a lot of the dicussion here on the forums focuses on things that honestly won't matter at all if the people that try it have a blast playing the game. Krixus is right that EQ had a certain magic to it, but so have a lot of MMORPGs, including Wow. I want to see something in the mold of the original EQ and Vanguard, and I think that's what the devs are aiming for, what matters more though is that when they are done that Pantheon have a magic of it's own.
Kayd said:I think what people forget sometimes is that games are a form of art. What matters is the overall experience. I've played many diverse MMORPGs and enjoyed many of them. The ones that stand out to me, even the ones that may not have been as successful such as AC, were that they went in their own direction. In many respects this could be said of Wow, they didn't set out to make an EQ clone, or at least not exactly. They knew the kind of games blizzard made and they knew EQ and they tried to make their own vision out of the EQ model. They were successful to the extent that they clearly differentiated themselves and playing Wow did have a certain magic of it's own.
This, more than anything is what Pantheon needs to do to be succesul, make something unique in the mold that they want to make it. Ultimately a lot of the dicussion here on the forums focuses on things that honestly won't matter at all if the people that try it have a blast playing the game. Krixus is right that EQ had a certain magic to it, but so have a lot of MMORPGs, including Wow. I want to see something in the mold of the original EQ and Vanguard, and I think that's what the devs are aiming for, what matters more though is that when they are done that Pantheon have a magic of it's own.
It is an art, and all too often these days it's paint by numbers.
Does anybody ever re-visit the Everquest Allakhazam website? I do on occassion and while there I started thinking back on factions so I looked up all the factions in EQ1. All 632 of them. 632 different factions! Some were dead-ends in that you started off KOS and could only ever make it worse. Others you could either fix directly by killing NPCs of their opposing faction or indirectly by killing NPCs of other factions which the first faction disliked. Amazing though just looking at 632 factions.