If there is an exploitable mechanic or a gold spammer in the game it is important that the developers address it promptly. Developers know about it because there are always a lot of honest players in the game who report it. If I see something in a game that I feel is not working as intended or a RMT/powerleveler spammer I report it instantly.
Sometimes, it is tough to call something cheating because its can be tough to draw the line. Is climbing up a rock wall instead of going through the gate cheating? I would say no but some could argue yes and I would not necessarily disagree it is just opinion. Like lyrina and Gelax's post insinuate it can be a grey area. Obvious ones are boss mechanics glaringly abused. If they leave it in the game shame on the developers. It is demoralizing when known exploits are not addressed. Shut down the instance/disable the boss temporarily until it gets fixed.
Cheating such as powerleveling services and buying gold with RL money is inexusable and that account should have a character wipe. A second offense should be an account delete/ban. Pantheon should post that in an obvious way because sadly, it has become all too commonplace.
Addressing cheating and exploits is especially important for morale in a game like Pantheon where players want to work honestly and fairly for their progression.
lyrina said:"Exploiting" is (in most cases) another word for "using gamefeatures in a clever way":P. "Cheating" is always a bad thing, imo.
Spot on ;)
It is interesting hearing people's takes on it, but Exploiting is basically using features and mechanics to your advantage, usually not in a way that the developers intended, so it isn't classified as cheating because we are just using what the game provides us with ;)
You should not mixup the topics. "RMT/PL Service" is a whole nother level.
Most of the players not even know, they using an 'Exploit' or an 'Cheat', cause they are not even aware of it. There there is a minority of players, that use active those kinda feature (sometime with 3rd party software). So lets say, you know to enter a zone w/o a key, for exp. "The Hole" in EQ, by using "Dug/Stand/Walk" to bypass the barrier, isnt a 'evil' expoit to use, right? but when it come to exploits/cheats, that generates coins/exp/mobspawn (w/ 3rd party software), its an 'evil' thing, right?
We should clearly split such things. Cause if you ban players, for "using the gamefeature the smart way", you are on the wrong path.
Kilsin said:lyrina said:"Exploiting" is (in most cases) another word for "using gamefeatures in a clever way":P. "Cheating" is always a bad thing, imo.
Spot on ;)
It is interesting hearing people's takes on it, but Exploiting is basically using features and mechanics to your advantage, usually not in a way that the developers intended, so it isn't classified as cheating because we are just using what the game provides us with ;)
Ok Kilsin if I /cartwheel through a wall I wont fear the banhammer b/c you said its okay :D
jimm0thy said:No difference, exploiting is cheating - people exploiting know what they are doing isn't suppose to work that way but they do it anyway to get something easily
Some exploits are bad enough that they can be game breaking but they still can't be classified as cheating, since the devs provided us with those methods of exploiting their content, if you are thinking of duping etc. will that is straight up cheating not an exploit and should be dealt with quickly and severely in my opinion.
Kilsin said:[...]
It is interesting hearing people's takes on it, but Exploiting is basically using features and mechanics to your advantage, usually not in a way that the developers intended, so it isn't classified as cheating because we are just using what the game provides us with ;)
Thats the spirit, sir! :-)
Zarriya said:Kilsin said:lyrina said:"Exploiting" is (in most cases) another word for "using gamefeatures in a clever way":P. "Cheating" is always a bad thing, imo.
Spot on ;)
It is interesting hearing people's takes on it, but Exploiting is basically using features and mechanics to your advantage, usually not in a way that the developers intended, so it isn't classified as cheating because we are just using what the game provides us with ;)
Ok Kilsin if I /cartwheel through a wall I wont fear the banhammer b/c you said its okay :D
Lol, that is a prime example of an exploit if it gives you an advantage by going through the wall (e.g. shortcut, attack through wall without taking damage etc.) and that is something you won't be banned for but is something that should be reported ;)
I've always considered cheating a complete disregard for the rules whereas an exploit is simply a bending of the rules.
Cheating would be like botting, ShowEQ, character warping, item duping, and should always be resulted with a permanent ban. There should be no ignorance for when a player is found to be cheating.
Exploiting is usually a way to bypass a mechanic that wasn't intended, however while providing an unfair advantage, no physical rules were broken, and only depending on the severity of the exploit should at worst result in a temporary ban.
Exploiting might be you're supposed to go through a locked door with a key (by completing some quest perhaps or killing some mob) in the castle in order to get to the boss, however, you see a ledge overlooking the open window to his throne room, and using clever game mechanics (levitation) you're able to walk straight into his throne room.
This is absolutely an unintended bypass of mechanics but no game rules were actually broken. This type of exploit should not result in a temporary ban and if the developers truly require that they go through the locked door, they should change the window, or the ledge, or disable levitation in the zone.
Now, if you're in a raid, and you're a magician and you notice the raid boss is unable to target your pet for some reason, and then you decide to get 30 mages together and go and kill the boss without anyone dying in the raid... This should result in a temporary ban.
In short, I guess the grey area of exploits would be any clever use of game mechanics should go unpunished while any obvious game breaking mechanics and exploit of such should go punished with a temporary ban.
For me the difference is pretty clear:
Exploiting: Gaining in-game advantages through "loopholes" or bugs in the game mechanics. Example: Buying items from an NPC merchant cheaply and selling them for much more to another NPC.
Cheating: Gaining in-game advantages through means external to the game. For example, using a packet sniffer to find a rare NPC is in a zone, or using a bot program to train your character's skills while you're afk.
Systems should be in place to catch and fix exploits as quickly as possible, but I do not think they should be punishable offenses since the player is using provided mechanics. Once the exploit is revealed and announced by the devs as not the intent of the game then it becomes cheating.
Cheating, using outside sources to gain unfair advantages or manipulate the game in ways not normally available are instantly punishable. There should be a listing of what is considered cheating in the read and acknowledge section at player log-in as well as the levels of corrective action.
The other thing is, that Expoits (Bugs in general) should be reported (no doubt on that point). Also someone need to take care of these reports. Then someone need to fix it.
I remember, several Expoits/Problems i reported; back in the good old EQ days; that has neverever been fixed. So, the "Reporting-System" need to be made easy, quick and proper made, even for 'not so advanced users'. And the reports should be took serious by the CS and forwarded to the Dev-Team, to fix it.
Kilsin said:jimm0thy said:No difference, exploiting is cheating - people exploiting know what they are doing isn't suppose to work that way but they do it anyway to get something easily
Some exploits are bad enough that they can be game breaking but they still can't be classified as cheating, since the devs provided us with those methods of exploiting their content, if you are thinking of duping etc. will that is straight up cheating not an exploit and should be dealt with quickly and severely in my opinion.
So if we're playing Monopoly and I'm the banker you are ok with me taking bonuses from the bank , because I'm simply exploiting the games rules / mechanics , not cheating
If we're both taking a test to get a job and I happen to walk to the front and grab the answer sheet while the instructor is away , you're fine with that. Its not cheating, its just exploiting the fact that the answers were there
If you and I are both camping for super awesome magic drop that only drops once per server and I just happen to know that by standing 5 feet away ontop of the third hill and spin my character counterclockwise that I can get a one hit kill , you're ok with that cause its not cheating
Kilsin said:jimm0thy said:No difference, exploiting is cheating - people exploiting know what they are doing isn't suppose to work that way but they do it anyway to get something easily
Some exploits are bad enough that they can be game breaking but they still can't be classified as cheating, since the devs provided us with those methods of exploiting their content, if you are thinking of duping etc. will that is straight up cheating not an exploit and should be dealt with quickly and severely in my opinion.
Sorry, but no. Exploiting is a subset of cheating. It's like asking what's better, being murdered or having a terminal disease? Maybe one is more palatable than the other, but they both result in the same outcome. Manipulating mechanics to your advantage is one thing, but rarely is it the case where someone is caught exploiting who didn't figure that what they were doing was probably against the rules. Entire guilds have been banned over this kind of thing.
Hiding behind the "well the mechanics allowed it!" defense is basically an admission that you knew what you were doing was wrong, and now you're clutching at straws to justify it.
I am with the majority here. Exploiting is doing something in game that gives you an advantage but was not intended. Sometimes it is just being clever like when Monks would use fane death as a technique to remove aggro and others its not. I remember with Shadows of Luclin came out there were gaurds that you could target but not damage so I would sit there with by bard and train instruments that only had damage spells on them all night. Clearly eploiting and not particularly clever but I wouldn't consider it cheating.
Cheating on the other hand is things like bots and all the other software that can help that really changes the game play and ruins the game environment.
cram9030 said:Exploiting is doing something in game that gives you an advantage but was not intended.
That is such a broad statement, to the point that is practically meaningless. By that definition bots are a-OK because they're simply doing something in game that gives you an advantage and is not intended.
Exploits are cheating, plain and simple. Using feign death to drop aggro is not an exploit, it is a legitimate tactic, I mean for goodness sake, the entire concept is based of animals feigning death to avoid attention of a predator. Cheating is doing something to gain an advantage in bad faith, that you know is contrary to the intentions of the developers, but nevertheless do so and then dress it up as a "loophole" to feign ignorance when you're called on your BS.
Top-end guilds do this stuff all the time. It's how they become the best. It's part of the fun, trying to find "creative" ways around the mechanics. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, but lets not pretend that it isn't cheating.
Pyye said: My interpretation: Exploiting happens in new games, some intentional, some not. Continuing to use tactic over and over, knowing it is wrong, and without reporting is the real issue. i.e.- You find that you can AoE damage a boss thru a wall and he gets stuck in a pattern where he can't harm you. You do this over and over to get loot or quest item without reporting exploit" Cheating is using any third party software or technology not a part of the licensed game to benefit in game. i.e.- A program like ESP that allows you to see player titles thru terrain, giving you a huge advantage in PvP atmoshpere
/Agree
Can i talk about something along these lines that has always bugged me in MMO's. I usually play a pet class in most MMO's, love them. Now, in most MMO's a lot of people see us pet classes as outcasts that stick with our own. But for some reason it seems like pet classes in groups are always treated as "exploiters"..when really it's just a different culture in the game. I'll give an example of EQOA. There would be times where my Grand Animation would tank, 2 necro pets and a mage pet would plus us pet owners casting would be essenatially an "8 person group". But there were always game updates to kind of "curb this behavior". People would get bent out of shape with our pet groups saying it isn't fair because we were able to take content down that usually took 10 people (real players). It always bothered me that this type of group was looked down upon. So what if we can use the tools given to us to take down a raid mob as easily as 10 real people? Why should we be considered "exploiters" for that? This is our culture. If anyone wanted to roll a pet class they could too and no one i stopping them. This is especially the case with Necro's in my opinion. I remember there being something in the necro's class description even that said something along the lines of "this class usually keeps to themselves with their pet and not in groups". Please don't consider the "pet class group" to be exploiting and patch it every week to stop it. just let it happen. If we are smart enough to use our pets in the most powerful way possible then we should be allowed to!
Kilsin said:Cheating vs Exploiting - What is the difference and how do you think it should be managed in MMORPGs?
Cheating = the player breaking/bending something in order to create the advantage. Cheating should be banned, period.
Exploiting = something being broken already and the player simply capitalizing on it.
Exploiting should be a no-call where the devs simply fix the busted mechanic and leave the player alone. If your pathing algorithm allows my necro to kite in perfect safety forever by finding the hidden line that makes a guard in Katta Castellum figure the fastest way to get to me is to go around the border of the entire zone...don't blame me for camping that line from level 53-55. You put the line there, I just found it. No reason I should be punished when simply writing a better pathfinding AI solves the globally destructive problem of one necro getting some risk free exp.
As far as managing exploits? I'd ask how you manage bugs discovered in beta testing? Ignore the problem and ban anyone who speaks of it, or just fix the problem? Same thing with an exploit. It's a bug that testing missed, so instead of throwing out revenue and compounding one mistake with an even bigger one, just fix it and move along.