Pyye said:I prefer a style where you can get with your friends and say, "okay so (name) has to get (specific item) to finish her weapon quest, and then we can go to (dungeon) and try and get the (rare drop) for (name)" Everyone says "sounds good" and we all head out for some fun. You never know what to expect, and usually, the game takes a different turn as you explore or encounter something along the way.
So I guess this falls in line with Sandbox... There is nothing better than to be away from the game, and you can't help thinking about wanting to be in it and going to all the places you need to go for item drops. I am a sucker for "open world" feel and long, meaningful quests that involve rare drops / combines to complete.
Yes. This sums up the experience I'm looking for, which would fall into the sandbox category.
striderida1 said:I really feel like the Theme Park MMO's has realy killed the whole essence of MMO's. Because of theme park MMO's we no longer had to run places, kill open world bosses, find XP camps, talk to anyone in the game etc. It just killed community as a whole and i think the biggest reason for that was instances. I hope this is the turning point in MMO's to go back to sandbox worlds and do away with instances, they just truly killed the MMO's genre since WoW came out. Say no to loading screens!
All very true, but Pantheon will have zones so there will be zone loading screens. I must admit I preferrred the Seamless world design of Vanguard (and some other MMO's which didn't do it quite as well) even with the chunking :), but seamless world isn't a defining factor of a Sandbox game apparently, and won't be so bad as long as they keep to the original plan of huge zones.
Shoe horning games into these 2 catagories is pointless imo.
I want a living breathing world that doesn't give a **** if I am there or not.
I don't want to be the one hero that saves the world.
I want to hear rumors of far off lands then set out to try and find them for myself.
I don't want to feel the linearity of any intended paths.
I want to just log in and decide what I want to do.
Kiz~
I truly never understand where the sandbox/themepark line is drawn, so I can't comment much on that. However, one thing I enjoy in regaurds to Everquest style of 'progression' was the way some of their zones were designed to keep you there for a series of levels, whether intentional or not.
Mob and camp difficulty would progress the deeper you get into the zone. While you may have been grinding in a zone for weeks, you'll begin to be able to visit new areas of a zone that you've only heard about in community chats.
Crushbone (since we all know it) for example:
Pawns-->Centurions-->Lego's-->Emperors Room
Gadgets said:I truly never understand where the sandbox/themepark line is drawn, so I can't comment much on that. However, one thing I enjoy in regaurds to Everquest style of 'progression' was the way some of their zones were designed to keep you there for a series of levels, whether intentional or not.
Mob and camp difficulty would progress the deeper you get into the zone. While you may have been grinding in a zone for weeks, you'll begin to be able to visit new areas of a zone that you've only heard about in community chats.
Crushbone (since we all know it) for example:
Pawns-->Centurions-->Lego's-->Emperors Room
It comes down to how fast they will allow us to level. I am hoping for a long journey where it takes a lot just to get to next level. If you think about it, this is the whole reason EQ was so incredible is because you were in that level for a long period of time. It allowed you to camp / grind a spot one day, run a dungeon another, go to a different area the next day, etc... You really got to see and experience all kinds of places because of slow leveling.
It is a simple but an often overlooked fact. Think about it, if you level from 1 to 10 in a day, you really think you will go get involved with all the other level 5 stuff around the different lands? Nope, you will find the nearest level 10 to 12 stuff and go from there. I want it nice and slow, with lots of different things to explore for all levels. There is nothing more fun than figuring out how to get to a new place because you heard the drops / experience were good there. The journey to get to these new places are usually good ones that last a long time!
Basicaly a themepark with sandbox features. I would like Dev. made content in a sandbox feeling world. What sandbox is now is heres a big open world with some open world full loot pvp, npc enemies, locations, and you can build stuff. No thanks that is just lazy game design to me.
Pyye said:Gadgets said:I truly never understand where the sandbox/themepark line is drawn, so I can't comment much on that. However, one thing I enjoy in regaurds to Everquest style of 'progression' was the way some of their zones were designed to keep you there for a series of levels, whether intentional or not.
Mob and camp difficulty would progress the deeper you get into the zone. While you may have been grinding in a zone for weeks, you'll begin to be able to visit new areas of a zone that you've only heard about in community chats.
Crushbone (since we all know it) for example:
Pawns-->Centurions-->Lego's-->Emperors Room
It comes down to how fast they will allow us to level. I am hoping for a long journey where it takes a lot just to get to next level. If you think about it, this is the whole reason EQ was so incredible is because you were in that level for a long period of time. It allowed you to camp / grind a spot one day, run a dungeon another, go to a different area the next day, etc... You really got to see and experience all kinds of places because of slow leveling.
It is a simple but an often overlooked fact. Think about it, if you level from 1 to 10 in a day, you really think you will go get involved with all the other level 5 stuff around the different lands? Nope, you will find the nearest level 10 to 12 stuff and go from there. I want it nice and slow, with lots of different things to explore for all levels. There is nothing more fun than figuring out how to get to a new place because you heard the drops / experience were good there. The journey to get to these new places are usually good ones that last a long time!
Correct^.
In early EQ (before the death penalty nerf), it was something in meeting, or grouping with a person who was 3 levels higher than you. No matter what class, they were just uber and easily 3 weeks (to a month) ahead of yourself in terms of exp, etc. Was a great feeling and inspired people to try new things, or persuance of perfection. Time played has it's own advantages in "know how". A lvl 17 warrior was uber to a lvl 14 warrior... solely based on the fact that Character building took time, much time invested into your charaxter. More adventures, more levels of experience.
Those who come after... will always have it easier. The first year of Pantheon should be tough. That is why there are vocal "haters", these types will come later to Pantheon.. once there is a path to follow, made by us.
Ideally, I think Pantheon should be slower leveling than EQ. This will allow the players, in their teens to spread out into a vast unknown world. It is during those early exploritory years is where a server becomes organic and things like the EC barter tunnel becomes a thing. True Guilds will need time to naturally form, instead of quickly put together for raiding. Taverns mean more when EXP is slower. Towns mean more, quests mean more... everything means more when it takes more experience to level each time.
Sarim said:I don't want a true sandbox world. Because as soon as you give people total freedom to change the world around them, someone WILL come and abuse the system. So for the world, I want a fixed approach. What you can do in this world however, where you go and when, should be totally your decision.
So I guess...for the world, I want a themepark. For my journey through the world, I want the freedom of the sandbox :)
Ah, but what if there was a way to prevent abuse.... nirvana!!! ;)
J
Kilsin said:Interesting replies! I expected a lot more negativity towards the themepark side of things, but it is great to see that you all, for the most part, understand that themepark isn't the big bad word everyone makes it out to be :)
For clarification:
Sandbox = An empty box (the world), filled with sand (environment, NPCs etc.), you are provided with a bucket and spade (combat mechanics and crafting) and it is up to you to set out, explore and make your own fun, it's a harsh and cruel world that relies on your own imagination and creativity to keep you interested.
Themepark = Specific rides or linear paths to follow, things like quests, dungeons, AAs, leveling system etc. are all developer created features or paths to follow if you choose to.
Combining both like we had in EQ and VG can turn our experiences into something truly special but if it isn't handled properly and we are forced down paths with our freedom taken away, it can have a much more negative impact on the player and the experience overall, a lot of games recently lean too heavily on the themepark side of things and end up pushing players away, while if you go completely the opposite way and lean too heavily on the sandbox side it can also have the same effect, a fine balance of both is what makes a great MMORPG in my opinion, but everyone has different likes/dislikes and some like more themepark while others like more sandbox, so it's hard to hit that nice middle point that allows many people to enjoy the game and play it the way that they like.
I am confident that our team can find that sweet spot, though :)
I hope so also. I understand exactly what you meant re. EQ and VG.
I lived in EQ from launch until 2007 and it was ultimately PoK that killed EQ for me and I knew it the day it launched with no restrictions on the level player allowed in. Pok distroyed the immersion, which imo is the entire soul of a successfull mmolrpg. I a;pha/beta'd VG and then played for several months past the launch.
I would love to see that combination in Pantheon.
I have found that some people have diff. definitions of 'sandbox' and 'mmo' and 'mmolrpg'. Themepark is a new one on me. Without getting into textbook definitions:
NO STARTING CENTERS. That is the sorriest way to begin an adventure in a new world. Especially when level 20s can go back into after theyve left.
I want a starting character as in EQ. Spawn in your starter city and find your way to your ingame guild hall. Learn by listening to the ncps conversations around you, and collect quests. By the time you've reached your Guildhall, you have a feel for your home city. You may have been killed by faction ncps as my SK was in Qeynos. Start out with nothing but the tunic your GL awards you. Start out killing level 1 mobs and earns coins. Work your way up. Earn enough to buy a sewing kit and a fishing pole. You can then clothe and feed yourself.
And die if you can't beat the mob, or fall in a pond, or off a cliff. With an eq CR required.
I want to be able to level by quests that make me think, that make me talk to an ncp and not push a button to answer. And level by killing mobs. Maybe by exploring too and crafting but not sure how that may work. The dual leveling system has worked well in some instances.
At level 7- 10 you're ready to explore beyound your starting grounds.
I don't want to see magic golden lights that will lead me to my destination. I want to have to actually go find it.
I'd like to see maps blacked out until I've actually walked in those areas.
I dont' want to see a level 10 3 days into the game. I want to have to work for it, make it count. A longer time at low level gives more time to build skills and learn. And even socialise.
I don't want to see a level 10 wearing level 25 gear and being able to use it. I want to see skills that need to be leveled by actual practice. IE raining monks off the gates of Qeynos, practicing safe fall.
I want to see a world as open as VG and with the dangers and quests and difficulties of EQ.
I'd like to see a world that does let me have my own quest line for my class epic armor and weapon: a quest line I must do alone. I think this would give both solo and group play a goal. And for those like me, that like to solo on occasion, it would be a great way to go..
I like some of your points here. I think blacked out maps are great unless you find a map (even if crude with semi-known locations). For example an explorer map that has some key locations that may or may not be 100% accurate. I also like the idea of a home city with the option of staying close to the city but the option of going out and finding other cities that end up being "your home". The dangers and difficulties in an open world are what made EQ and VG great and the sense of life and death when adventuring is what I would want to feel.
I would disagree with the level of gear but I would argue that NPCs may want to kill you and take it if its OP for your level ;).
J
The problem with the term sandbox is that no one can agree what that actually constitutes. I have a personal opinion of what it means to me and i'm sure it'll differ from the next persons opinion.
Some people think it means free for all full loot PVP. Without this option it can't really be sandbox. Some people think it means no quests or handholding. Some think EQ was a sandbox, though i don't share this opinion. PVE sandboxes seem to be an enigma to game devs. I'd love a good fantasy PVE sandbox with great classes and grouping.
To me a good example of what i consider a sandbox would be Star Wars Galaxies. It hit the sweet spot of what i'm looking for. It just needed a lot more polish and better game systems.
Aldie said:The problem with the term sandbox is that no one can agree what that actually constitutes.
Very valid point here. Reading this thread, I think sandbox means something different to everyone. However, most in this thread seem to agree that we do NOT want a WoW-style "quest grinder" where churning through quests (more like tasks) by the dozen is the primary means of leveling. We also seem to agree that we want many paths for leveling, and not something that is completely linear.
Labels aside, these are the two things that are most important to me.
Dekaden said:Aldie said:The problem with the term sandbox is that no one can agree what that actually constitutes.
Very valid point here. Reading this thread, I think sandbox means something different to everyone. However, most in this thread seem to agree that we do NOT want a WoW-style "quest grinder" where churning through quests (more like tasks) by the dozen is the primary means of leveling. We also seem to agree that we want many paths for leveling, and not something that is completely linear.
Labels aside, these are the two things that are most important to me.
Exactly. To me, its as simple as giving me options as to what I do and where I do it. That is something games have lacked for years now, and how I view a themepark. Even if our options are limited beyond adventuring, just knowing that I have options as to where I go and what I do is drastically different than modern MMOs - and that was the way in which EQ was more sandbox and less themepark. That is not an option in MMOs of today. Go ahead and try to wander off the set path. Just try to find another dungeon besides the one the local quest hub prompts you to visit. Theres nothing for you there but death. Its off limits until you finish the previous area (and levels).
Maybe in Pantheon I won't be able to sail a ship out into the ocean and build a house on an island; Maybe I won't be able to construct a shop in the middle of town, but whatever I can do should feel open ended and provide me with a variety of options every step of the way.
Sandbox vs Themepark if the 'pure' Sandbox is 0 and the 'pure' Themepark is 10, I would like a 4.
I dont wont quest hubs as such and then an arrow pointing on my mini map where to find the next quest item.
However if we are going on a quest I dont want to have to build a road from crafting skills just to walk to a town sort of thing, or make bricks to build my House and put every brick in place.