I know this topic has come up in the past, and I've tried to search the forums using the limited forum header search that's available - not sure if the topic was deleted, moved, etc., so I apologize in advance for the redundancy. But, since it's been such as hot topic over on MMORPG - I figured it was worth discussing again.
There's a lot of drama over the "fallen hero" concept (See recent MMORPG Interview Kilsin posted and many older threads on MMORPG/Here) - starting Pantheon as a Fallen Hero instead of a nobody.
Instead of making this an issue, which it appears to be for many (I could care less) - it seems like an easy fix. Appeal to the masses (customers) and have your character start as a nobody and let your actions determine what you are in game. You could still be "one of the fallen" and the lore could just mean that race has fallen from its pinnacle after the planets? collided. I don't think this would be game redefining or game-changing. The lore could still be shaped in that a character obtains certain skills through progression; it just wouldn't be "regaining" lost ones. Obviously I haven't read the lore, but I wouldn't think it would be difficult to remove the word "hero" and insert peasant, nobody, peon, scrub, etc. and "regain" to gain. Everyone loves the rags to riches story - I don't think I've seen any arguments against going that route.
There's many battles Pantheon will have to fight to garner support, I don't think this issue which could be easily fixed (and isn't gameplay defining) should be one of them.
Raidan said:
I know this topic has come up in the past, and I've tried to search the forums using the limited forum header search that's available - not sure if the topic was deleted, moved, etc., so I apologize in advance for the redundancy. But, since it's been such as hot topic over on MMORPG - I figured it was worth discussing again.
There's a lot of drama over the "fallen hero" concept (See recent MMORPG Interview Kilsin posted and many older threads on MMORPG/Here) - starting Pantheon as a Fallen Hero instead of a nobody.
Instead of making this an issue, which it appears to be for many (I could care less) - it seems like an easy fix. Appeal to the masses (customers) and have your character start as a nobody and let your actions determine what you are in game. You could still be "one of the fallen" and the lore could just mean that race has fallen from its pinnacle after the planets? collided. I don't think this would be game redefining or game-changing. The lore could still be shaped in that a character obtains certain skills through progression; it just wouldn't be "regaining" lost ones. Obviously I haven't read the lore, but I wouldn't think it would be difficult to remove the word "hero" and insert peasant, nobody, peon, scrub, etc. and "regain" to gain. Everyone loves the rags to riches story - I don't think I've seen any arguments against going that route.
There's many battles Pantheon will have to fight to garner support, I don't think this issue which could be easily fixed (and isn't gameplay defining) should be one of them.
I think depending upon what races and factions you work with, that should guide your story. For example, sdcord, along with the exceptional skill and bravery of Kilsin guild, Gnomes and Humans, were victorious against the evil Ogre king.
Conversely, when I played Dragon Age 1 I started out as caste Dwarf and rose through the ranks. And that experience was very immersive and rewarding. So I think it can be done from the rags to riches "hero" stand point, as long as the central focus of the experience isn't on the risen hero, but the caste Dwarf and his or her associates.
This is a no-brainer - you cannot have 10,000 fallen heroes in the same world. The fallen hero setup might work in a single-player game. It simply doesn't work in a MMO. If everyone is a hero, no one is.
And it introduces ridiculous story twists. Have you seen The Elder Scrolls Online? You start as a fallen hero... spending the first few levels in an alternate plane, fighting the will of an evil god, fighting assorted demonic entities. Then you get out of there, back to the regular world, and fight regular junk mobs. Then everyone can go through the same story, and you get thousands of heroes, emperors, whatnot. And nobody cares.
Aethor said:
This is a no-brainer - you cannot have 10,000 fallen heroes in the same world. The fallen hero setup might work in a single-player game. It simply doesn't work in a MMO. If everyone is a hero, no one is.
And it introduces ridiculous story twists. Have you seen The Elder Scrolls Online? You start as a fallen hero... spending the first few levels in an alternate plane, fighting the will of an evil god, fighting assorted demonic entities. Then you get out of there, back to the regular world, and fight regular junk mobs. Then everyone can go through the same story, and you get thousands of heroes, emperors, whatnot. And nobody cares.
Agreed. The personal hero thing is really cliche, and really tired.
I respect that the races of Pantheon were each great and noble peoples on their given worlds. I also respect that they have been displaced and their battle on Terminus will be their Rise of the Fallen. That makes total sense.
What I don't get is how every player has to be some sort of ex-hero. I really liked what was said at Insider's Summit. It should have been pretty clear that Brad has an understanding of building MMOs that other people in the industry lack, but I admit hearing the hero of the past thing right off the bat made me cringe.
I dunno, I think some of it is just over thinking things due to the scraps of info on the game as a whole that we have. It's not like you're going to start out a badass or anything. We'll all have crap gear and stuff and we probably won't even think about being a "fall hero" or whatever. In due time we'll all know who is something and who isn't.
It depends on how the "Fallen Hero" is done. I could see it work out in the sense that you once where this great and mighty general. You disgraced your army and thus had to leave the land, and are a nobody in the new world.
Yes you remember those days of greatness, and what happened to knock you down, but from this point moving forward it really has no bearing on what is going on to you, only affect how you will react to it.
I love talking to random npcs and getting back story of the land and their opinions of the current leaders etc, and I loved the racism of the npcs in early EQ. Making the world lore rich is great, however I personally only see negative with making anyone feel important from the start.
Working on a better description of what we mean by each player being a re-born fallen hero. I am confident it will put most everyone at ease regarding the issue.
I always kind of thought " Rise of the Fallen " was about the rise of each races fallen gods, considereing Pantheon meaning every or all Gods. Each race kind of was at odds or thier Gods had left them to some degree when they came to Terminus, and now it's time for the Gods to rise from the Fallen and lead each of their People again.
Just My take on the name.
My concept is the inhabitants WERE a fierce and mighty peoples. But now, on Terminus with the remnants of their once powerful pressence as a memory, the core attitude is one of offence. Having to build, claim, expand, influence where it once was simply understood. But...we could be hero's...if just for one day.
The 'fallen hero' is really about lore and setting. You absolutely start as a 'nobody', level 1, just like most MMOs. But as you level up, acquire powerful items and abilities, you are becoming the powerful individual you were in a former life. This is true for every player, and simply describes why players are (eventually) so much more powerful than, say, NPC townfolk. There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters. I think it's pretty cool, but would caution against reading more into it than what I've said here. You can remain nobody, or you can make friends, or join a guild, etc., just like any other MMO. We're simply, from a lore and story standpoint, explaining why, in the current age, all of these player characters are appearing.
If you're someone who enjoys immersing yourself into an MMO's lore and story and setting, I think you'll see what we're up to here. If you don't care so much about lore and setting, the Fallen Hero explanation of where you and the other players are coming from is simply something you can ignore.
Aradune said:
The 'fallen hero' is really about lore and setting. You absolutely start as a 'nobody', level 1, just like most MMOs. But as you level up, acquire powerful items and abilities, you are becoming the powerful individual you were in a former life. This is true for every player, and simply describes why players are (eventually) so much more powerful than, say, NPC townfolk. There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters. I think it's pretty cool, but would caution against reading more into it than what I've said here. You can remain nobody, or you can make friends, or join a guild, etc., just like any other MMO. We're simply, from a lore and story standpoint, explaining why, in the current age, all of these player characters are appearing.
If you're someone who enjoys immersing yourself into an MMO's lore and story and setting, I think you'll see what we're up to here. If you don't care so much about lore and setting, the Fallen Hero explanation of where you and the other players are coming from is simply something you can ignore.
So, I suppose I'm a little torn on this one. I've read fantasy books for somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 years, and while I've always loved a good "coming-of-age" fantasy style book, it's also one of the hardest story types to get right. One of the toughest reasons to get this type of storyline right is because anyone who is into fantasy has heard the story countless times before. Ergo, it takes a very talented author to pull off something very well written as well as very different than prior approaches within this fantasy storyline.
While some of my favorite books of all-time follow a hero growing into their undiscovered powers, it also feels like a layup for a plot line. And, while I understand we still know very little of the lore, this type of approach seems like it will be impossibly hard to pull off when we're talking about thousands of people per server. Back in 1999 I think this could have been a great premise, but 16years later we've all had the chance to be the predestined developing (reborn/fallen/unique lineage, etc...) hero.
I for one would rather be the descendant of a fallen race, a believer in a fallen god, or something to that effect. At least that explains why there are thousands upon thousands of people finding power along new paths.
I'm not an immersion junkie, so one way or the other this is the game I want to play, but I know there are a TON of people on these boards that are fueled by the immersion. I truly hope there is more we don't understand (and I'm positive there is), but this story approach seems REALLY hard to get right for the people that are immersion chasers.
Is there still time to double/triple think this approach? The dev team so far has been awesome, so I'm curious if it's still an option to call an audible from this point in the game?
Either way, I sailed to the Pantheon island and burned my ship, so I'm here to stay. I just hope this works out for the folks that are different than myself.
The way Brad phrased it here doesn't really make it sound much different than EQ, only there's a different underlying lore base to explain the progression of character power.
In EQ, we killed gods to become more powerful. In Pantheon, we still do, except there's a neat undertone of regaining our past glory. Realistically speaking, there's plenty of room for thousands of heroes in a game to regain their past glory without making it out like you're the sole savior of the world, and so is everyone else.
It sounds vague enough that it could be interpreted to mean something relative innocuous, compared to a game like GW2 where you have a personal story that makes you out to be an epic hero/sole savior of the world, and so is every other person of the race that you play.
Aradune said:
The 'fallen hero' is really about lore and setting. You absolutely start as a 'nobody', level 1, just like most MMOs. But as you level up, acquire powerful items and abilities, you are becoming the powerful individual you were in a former life. This is true for every player, and simply describes why players are (eventually) so much more powerful than, say, NPC townfolk. There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters. I think it's pretty cool, but would caution against reading more into it than what I've said here. You can remain nobody, or you can make friends, or join a guild, etc., just like any other MMO. We're simply, from a lore and story standpoint, explaining why, in the current age, all of these player characters are appearing.
If you're someone who enjoys immersing yourself into an MMO's lore and story and setting, I think you'll see what we're up to here. If you don't care so much about lore and setting, the Fallen Hero explanation of where you and the other players are coming from is simply something you can ignore.
Sounds good to me!
Liav said:
The way Brad phrased it here doesn't really make it sound much different than EQ, only there's a different underlying lore base to explain the progression of character power.
In EQ, we killed gods to become more powerful. In Pantheon, we still do, except there's a neat undertone of regaining our past glory. Realistically speaking, there's plenty of room for thousands of heroes in a game to regain their past glory without making it out like you're the sole savior of the world, and so is everyone else.
It sounds vague enough that it could be interpreted to mean something relative innocuous, compared to a game like GW2 where you have a personal story that makes you out to be an epic hero/sole savior of the world, and so is every other person of the race that you play.
I can see it that way for sure. I think my only real concern directly relates to the group that has to have lore they can sink their teeth into in order to be satisfied. It's clear that VR has a finger on the pulse of its intended niche demographic, so the more I think about it the less it concerns me.
I know I'm more the exception than the rule, but gameplay mechanics are really my jam, not immersion or lore. I've strangely, given I'm an avid fantasy reader, always had a hard time making myself get into the lore of any game.
Either way, I'm eagerly awaiting any and every piece of new information released!
Aradune said:The 'fallen hero' is really about lore and setting. You absolutely start as a 'nobody', level 1, just like most MMOs. But as you level up, acquire powerful items and abilities, you are becoming the powerful individual you were in a former life. This is true for every player, and simply describes why players are (eventually) so much more powerful than, say, NPC townfolk. There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters. I think it's pretty cool, but would caution against reading more into it than what I've said here. You can remain nobody, or you can make friends, or join a guild, etc., just like any other MMO. We're simply, from a lore and story standpoint, explaining why, in the current age, all of these player characters are appearing.
If you're someone who enjoys immersing yourself into an MMO's lore and story and setting, I think you'll see what we're up to here. If you don't care so much about lore and setting, the Fallen Hero explanation of where you and the other players are coming from is simply something you can ignore.
I appreciate the clarification and I figured you would be level 1 in a Guild Trainer's shirt and a rusty short sword. After reading this, I would be in agreement with Liav and will be interested to see more - especially if the Right of Passage System is still going to be tied to horizontal/vertical progression.
I think the fear would be of a personal hero story (especially if the right of passage system becomes a single-player style linear lore based progression system) or similar to Aethor's post of everybody being a hero and nobody caring.
Liav said:The way Brad phrased it here doesn't really make it sound much different than EQ, only there's a different underlying lore base to explain the progression of character power.
In EQ, we killed gods to become more powerful. In Pantheon, we still do, except there's a neat undertone of regaining our past glory. Realistically speaking, there's plenty of room for thousands of heroes in a game to regain their past glory without making it out like you're the sole savior of the world, and so is everyone else.
It sounds vague enough that it could be interpreted to mean something relative innocuous, compared to a game like GW2 where you have a personal story that makes you out to be an epic hero/sole savior of the world, and so is every other person of the race that you play.
Well said -- you explained it better than me :)
Some of the confusion may come from original Pantheon ideas where you could loot items to gain abilities of the former owner. Could that be considered rising of a fallen hero?
bigdogchris said:Some of the confusion may come from original Pantheon ideas where you could loot items to gain abilities of the former owner. Could that be considered rising of a fallen hero?
No. While you will indeed find the more exotic spells while out exploring, they likely will not have your 'name' associated with them; rather, you are recovering power and abilities and items left behind by former heroes, of which you are likely a reincarnation (hence your ability to use them, whereas an NPC peasant could not). You are special, you are a hero, you are one of the fallen, risen to re-claim Terminus, fight God-Kings, etc., but so are the other players you encounter.
Aethor said:This is a no-brainer - you cannot have 10,000 fallen heroes in the same world. The fallen hero setup might work in a single-player game. It simply doesn't work in a MMO. If everyone is a hero, no one is.
And it introduces ridiculous story twists. Have you seen The Elder Scrolls Online? You start as a fallen hero... spending the first few levels in an alternate plane, fighting the will of an evil god, fighting assorted demonic entities. Then you get out of there, back to the regular world, and fight regular junk mobs. Then everyone can go through the same story, and you get thousands of heroes, emperors, whatnot. And nobody cares.
Honestly I think this is something you are just going to have to suspend your disbelief for, though I am totally fine with the start from nothing perspective. Those kind of things are bound to happen regardless. How many times has a named monster been killed? a legendary one at that? I have been through both kinds of games and it never bothers me when they have thousands of "chosen ones" running around because I tend to exclude anyone elses story form my own (say I was playing a game where I am a "chosen one", I know everyone else did that story too but as far as I am concerned everyone else are just misc. adventurers).
Aradune said:There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters.
I don't think that people becoming more powerful needs some special lore to explain it. If you do something, over time you get more skilled at it, you get better at it, and this is true for anything from weight-lifting to boxing to playing chess. You don't need to be The Last Scion of The Fallen House of Somebody. Especially not with ten thousand other last scions of something.
Players in the gameworld are simply people who came of age, or who decided, later in their life, to do something with their life.
The legend is what the player makes of it.
Aethor said:Aradune said:There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters.
I don't think that people becoming more powerful needs some special lore to explain it. If you do something, over time you get more skilled at it, you get better at it, and this is true for anything from weight-lifting to boxing to playing chess. You don't need to be The Last Scion of The Fallen House of Somebody. Especially not with ten thousand other last scions of something.
Players in the gameworld are simply people who came of age, or who decided, later in their life, to do something with their life.
The legend is what the player makes of it.
Realistically speaking, you don't need any lore at all. I don't think the game is any worse for having lore, though.
Aethor said:Aradune said:There's a lot of cool lore that explains why all of these new people (player characters, entering the world when the game is launched) are, over time, becoming heroic and powerful. It's really no different than most MMOs, except we're explaining the appearance of players in the gameworld, many of whom will become formidable characters.
I don't think that people becoming more powerful needs some special lore to explain it. If you do something, over time you get more skilled at it, you get better at it, and this is true for anything from weight-lifting to boxing to playing chess. You don't need to be The Last Scion of The Fallen House of Somebody. Especially not with ten thousand other last scions of something.
Players in the gameworld are simply people who came of age, or who decided, later in their life, to do something with their life.
The legend is what the player makes of it.
My apologies for necroing this thread, but I wanted to chime in.
I agree with Aethor. Ive always had a distaste for the fallen hero approach, and having 10,000 fallen heros running around the world just ruins this for me. Sure, lore can be made to explain away anything. I would much rather see a rags to riches open player arch where I control my own personal lore, rather than having a portion of it pre-determined for me. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with the whole sandbox experience.
Now that we have some lore to digest, I thought I'd bring this back into discussion.