Chaam said:
That's a tough question. The Pantheon grind in VG was not that bad when you look back on it. When you factor in Sorc kiting. Some grinds are evil but are needed to slow the pace I guess. First time through Pantheon of the Ancients it was not to bad, but I had 7 epic toons and it got old after the second one.
Group harvesting for a guild hall was what you would really call a grind. When you had 6 in a grp and were on Vent shooting the breeze you did not even realize it.
Fun is when your sitting at work trying to devise a way to use your game time the best to accomplish something. If that something is grinding then you have fun and not so fun some days.
I do trust the judgement of this team to make it all the fun in the world. Kilsin you played VG as hardcore as the rest of us so your insight should be a great voice of reason when it comes to grinding.
Fun also is when you are fighting the group/raid boss for the first time and trying to figure out a complex strat that some crazy dev thought up. Then 3 - 4 - 5 weeks later you finally get it down and the team performs perfect and you get the kill. Now that is fun. atleast until you noob it up the next week and cant repeat.
Haha Great topic.
Yeah exactly mate, I put 6 toons through epics and wa slike you after the second but we were in the upper bracket of hardcore so it was our own fault for putting ourselves through it again! lol
The rest of the player base that wasn't as nuts as us would of found the first time tough but I think rewarding enough to justify it, because lets face it, Epic T3 armour, Epic weapons all with Aug slots and an Epic mount was pretty awesome rewards for a lot of us.
I personally wouldn;t tone down SoD as my experience was like yours, either doing collects, named run or group harvesting, I was always talking to guildies in Vent/TS and guild chat so it was basically like hanging out with friends doing what we needed to do to better ourselves and progress out characters for the guild and I really enjoyed that :)
The Guild Hall grind was probably one that almost broke me with so much harvesting and Crafting but it was also because we were spread so thin towards the end that there was only a few of us putting in 10x the effort but again, the reward at the end of it all made it worth it for me.
Exactly right, when you are thinking about the game at work and it's the last thing you think of before bed, you know it has hooked you in and become a good part of your life, I hope to get that feeling back with you all in Pantheon :)
When I thought up this question I had so many good memories flash back to the VG days with everyone, which why I knew you guys would like it and have plenty of stories to tell and experiences to share :)
Thanks for the reply mate!
I don't like tedious quest design. "Go to cave X and kill 5 gnoll warriors". Done, return to camp and get next step: "Go to cave X, and kill 5 gnoll wizards". Where you have to fight through the warriors again to get to the wizards. Done, return to camp, get next step: "Go to cave X, and kill 5 gnoll shamans". Where you have to fight through the warriors and the wizards to get to the shamans...
Been there, done that. Its NOT challending, just annoying.
Sarim said:
I don't like tedious quest design. "Go to cave X and kill 5 gnoll warriors". Done, return to camp and get next step: "Go to cave X, and kill 5 gnoll wizards". Where you have to fight through the warriors again to get to the wizards. Done, return to camp, get next step: "Go to cave X, and kill 5 gnoll shamans". Where you have to fight through the warriors and the wizards to get to the shamans...
Been there, done that. Its NOT challending, just annoying.
I think with quests like that, it's all in the way they are handled and delivered to the player, they need to be optional but appealing and have a decent backstory or reason for doing it. The "go here and kill X amount then either return or tell someone else that it's been done" is a little piece of old school that I would like to leave behind.
We have spoken about this topic in podcasts and posts previously but in Pantheon, we intend to have fewer quests than say VG but they will be a better quality, so I doubt that problem will exist for us but in saying that, if the odd fetch or kill quest is thrown in then there is nothing wrong with that, if players don't like them, they can ignore them and move on, while others who do like them can stop and entertain themselves for a while. :)
Like others said, the challenge is the fun. The more pertinent question is when is challenging not fun? When does the joy of solving a puzzle or working to accomplish something turn to frustration and misery? That of course is going to vary with people, but when it comes to MMOs, the more challenge the better. If that means solving puzzles, studying every clue found in lore to solve a quest or defeat a mob, coordinating a huge raid or even farming the right items and abilities for months, all of those things are fair game to me. Frankly, if I'm not dying when I do new content, something isn't right.
Giving it some thought, I can't think of any scenario that I would feel is "too much" when it comes to challenge. Early on in EQ, there were mobs that people never even thought to attempt, because they seemed beyond even the largest guilds capabilities. There was actually some degree of mystery when it came to the inhabitants of the world, because some of the strongest mobs weren't even itemized, some were and hidden down in the depths of dungeons, while others were right in plain sight. There were even times mobs weren't possible to kill during an expansion by any conventional force.
Now this is not to suggest that brute force should be the go-to form of challenge, but rather that I'm not against there being some hurdles that take months, or even years to overcome due to a gear check or a mystery mechanic. I guess what I'm saying is, bring back the challenge and mystery. Just because an npc exists at a certain place and time, doesn't mean we have to be able to defeat it. Just because a crafting recipe exists, doesn't mean you should tell us where to find all the ingredients. Its OK for there to be things we don't know; entities we cannot defeat... yet.
Dullahan said:
Like others said, the challenge is the fun. The more pertinent question is when is challenging not fun? When does the joy of solving a puzzle or working to accomplish something turn to frustration and misery? That of course is going to vary with people, but when it comes to MMOs, the more challenge the better. If that means solving puzzles, studying every clue found in lore to solve a quest or defeat a mob, coordinating a huge raid or even farming the right items and abilities for months, all of those things are fair game to me. Frankly, if I'm not dying when I do new content, something isn't right.
Giving it some thought, I can't think of any scenario that I would feel is "too much" when it comes to challenge. Early on in EQ, there were mobs that people never even thought to attempt, because they seemed beyond even the largest guilds capabilities. There was actually some degree of mystery when it came to the inhabitants of the world, because some of the strongest mobs weren't even itemized, some were and hidden down in the depths of dungeons, while others were right in plain sight. There were even times mobs weren't possible to kill during an expansion by any conventional force.
Now this is not to suggest that brute force should be the go-to form of challenge, but rather that I'm not against there being some hurdles that take months, or even years to overcome due to a gear check or a mystery mechanic. I guess what I'm saying is, bring back the challenge and mystery. Just because an npc exists at a certain place and time, doesn't mean we have to be able to defeat it. Just because a crafting recipe exists, doesn't mean you should tell us where to find all the ingredients. Its OK for there to be things we don't know; entities we cannot defeat... yet.
That was the core of my question, I think a few people just saw the title or the first part of the question and started typing ;)
"Where do you personally draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge?"
You share a common theme with a lot of the replies, although around half of the responses are saying not too hard but challenging enough to enjoy without pulling their hair out, so to speak but a lot are in favour of a harsh learning curve and slower progression, which I tend to agree with also.
Gadgets said:
Well articulated reply on all points, Dullhan. I like it! Throw the quest journal concept out of the window and bring back the days of actually reading what an NPC says rather than just clicking through the diallect. Lets experience mysterious exploration and keeping notes on a sheet of paper!
I think the quest journal was always intended to be a useful tool to "remember" what you had already read in quests and provide access to recall it at any time, which I can totally understand the reasoning behind it and still think it is a valuable tool in a lot of games, but I think it can be done better and implemented in a much more immersive, less hand holding and a less intrusive way.
A good example would be someone who starts reading a long quest text, then crashes or needs to log off, if that NPC doesn't provide that information again, you are basically prevented from continuing on with that quest, the quest log was just a way to save that information to recall and refresh our memories.
I don't however like seeing markers or directions given by sparkling trails or flashing arrows etc. I would like a nice personal journal to open and keep track of many things that my character does, quests or conversation with NPCs included. :)
Kilsin said:
Yeah nice Raidan, I agree on the Skyrim point too and would strongly suggest you check out http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/? to get the experience that you want (SkyRe or Requiem are both good difficulty changing mods), I have over 220 mods to change the game into something visually stunning and one of the hardest challenges I have had in a single player RPG game, I love it and was pushing almost 700 hours on PC until Pantheon and Witcher 3 grabbed my attention lol :)
Appreciate the link Kilsin - I have checked out some mods in the past, but I'll look at those as well. Also, to comment on your later post of the Kill quests, I would be ok with some (less total # than VG) being optional as long as they don't remove a challenge and/or start becoming optionally mandatory by having quest level gear greater than or equal to dropped dungeon gear. My preference would be no kill/fetch quests, but I realize I can't get all that I want :) - don't mean to derail the thread... very good topic.
I think the most important part of the quest log / quest interaction will come down to the lore. Does it tell you what to do and where to go? I hope not. Do we need to use our brains, time, resources, and exploration to figure it out through trial and error? I hope so. During the EQ era I was in the race (not in the lead) for my classes 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0. Sure, people could always look for spoilers online, if they were pathetic, but if you really wanted to experience a unique mystery, the game itself didn't take that away from you. One thing I like about the pre-alpha Project: Gorgon that I just recently got into, is that it's offering a 'notepad' in game alongside the quest system for users to add their own content. i.e riddle/puzzle answers, clues, notes, etc.
For me, a good quest or challenge will go through this simple checklist.
-Does it have a comprehensive storyline
-Does it create a social aspect
-Does it offer risk vs. reward
-Does it incorporate factions / class limitations
-Does it involve travel
Raidan said:
Kilsin said:
Yeah nice Raidan, I agree on the Skyrim point too and would strongly suggest you check out http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/? to get the experience that you want (SkyRe or Requiem are both good difficulty changing mods), I have over 220 mods to change the game into something visually stunning and one of the hardest challenges I have had in a single player RPG game, I love it and was pushing almost 700 hours on PC until Pantheon and Witcher 3 grabbed my attention lol :)
Appreciate the link Kilsin - I have checked out some mods in the past, but I'll look at those as well. Also, to comment on your later post of the Kill quests, I would be ok with some (less total # than VG) being optional as long as they don't remove a challenge and/or start becoming optionally mandatory by having quest level gear greater than or equal to dropped dungeon gear. My preference would be no kill/fetch quests, but I realize I can't get all that I want :) - don't mean to derail the thread... very good topic.
You're welcome mate :)
I didn't mean that we were going to put kill/fetch quests in, just saying that I personally don't mind the odd one or two as I can ignore them and keep walking if I choose, they don't hurt me or my progression, I just look at them as fluff quests that some people will like. If I got a choice, I would exclude them and just have better quality, more meaningful and more immersive quests which is what we are planning ;)
Gadgets said:
I think the most important part of the quest log / quest interaction will come down to the lore. Does it tell you what to do and where to go? I hope not. Do we need to use our brains, time, resources, and exploration to figure it out through trial and error? I hope so. During the EQ era I was in the race (not in the lead) for my classes 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0. Sure, people could always look for spoilers online, if they were pathetic, but if you really wanted to experience a unique mystery, the game itself didn't take that away from you. One thing I like about the pre-alpha Project: Gorgon that I just recently got into, is that it's offering a 'notepad' in game alongside the quest system for users to add their own content. i.e riddle/puzzle answers, clues, notes, etc.
For me, a good quest or challenge will go through this simple checklist.
-Does it have a comprehensive storyline
-Does it create a social aspect
-Does it offer risk vs. reward
-Does it incorporate factions / class limitations
-Does it involve travel
Yeah exactly, we don't want any hand holding or Quest log/Journal features that do the work for us ;)
1) There should be a balance. A quest should offer you reasonable hints and clues, but not draw every spot on the map so you just look at your "radar" and go around mindlessly and complete point by point.
2) There should be a storyline. And then, what you actually need to do should be logically within the context of the storyline.
3) There should be some grind, or people will finish the entire game in a few months and leave out of boredom. But there shouldn't be so much grind that it in itself makes them quit.
4) With grinding, don't make it insultingly repetitive. When it's done, it should be done. If you need to kill 5 gnoll warriors and 5 gnoll wizards and 5 priests, make it in the same run. When you leave the cave and go to the quest NPC, it should send you elsewhere and not back to that same cave. Better make it so you spend 15 hours in one step in the same cave, than returning you 3 times for 5 hours each.
5) It should remain challenging even if there is a walkthrough on the Web. If having a walkthrough means you can just waltz thru it without problems, it's not good enough. This happens if the entire challenge is in just knowing the right steps.
There MUST be a part of the challenge that's in gear / dps / tank-ability / heal-ability.
6) It must not be too scripted. I have seen boss fights in MMOs that are so choreographed, you need to remember exactly what to do at which second, or you die. That's as much of a grind as hitting the mob 300 times, and with more frustration.
7) While there can (and probably should) be some randomness, it should not spike so much that a single random event can kill you.
The correct balance is that if you ignore it (or don't react in a reasonable time) several times in a row, that can get you killed. But not if you miss it just one time, that's just frustration. More so if you have a large raid - chances that everyone in 40 or 70 people raid reacts 100% correctly on every random event is next to zero.
Kilsin said:Dullahan said:
That was the core of my question, I think a few people just saw the title or the first part of the question and started typing ;)
"Where do you personally draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge?"
You share a common theme with a lot of the replies, although around half of the responses are saying not too hard but challenging enough to enjoy without pulling their hair out, so to speak but a lot are in favour of a harsh learning curve and slower progression, which I tend to agree with also.
Some additional comments:
8) The player should be playing the game, not waiting endlessly.
Some waiting is ok and even needed - EQ med breaks were a good chance to socialize; games that don't have them resulted in people caring much less about other people.
But do you remember the EQ Stormfeather quest/camp? People had to wait for several days in front of their screens, often without sleep, doing nothing (only trivial mobs around) for the quest NPC to spawn so they can kill him. That's just mind-numbingly bad design.
It could have been done in a number of different ways. Make it spawn triggered by an item that is a rare drop off a mob of appropriate level, so people can exp in the area, do something, not wait, and while doing something also get some exp and coin.
It can take the same amount of time, but as long as people are spending it doing something, it would feel ok.
9) Players should be challenged by the game, not by the UI.
I have seen games that are hard because you have to press a button in the exact split second when it's needed, or the button does something else (multiple functions on the same button, depending on the situation). I have seen games where camera uncontrollably goes around while the mob is beating on you. Games where switching between spells or weapons is a chore.
All these actions should be doable without having to fight the UI, they should be easy and intuitive, so the player can ignore the UI, do it subconsciously, and solve problems that the game world itself presents.
10) Players should be playing the game, not playing the UI.
Games sometimes devolve into reaction clicking - now this icon popped, so I have to click this other icon, now this status is up, I have to press that. In all this, the player starts looking at its UI and ignoring the game world. It should be designed so that the player has to pay attention to the game world, and the UI is mostly transparent. It can't be completely invisible - some things are too unwieldy to represent in the game world, and should be done by the UI - but it's better that the UI is simpler, that it doesn't feel like flying a space shuttle.
Aethor said:Games sometimes devolve into reaction clicking - now this icon popped, so I have to click this other icon, now this status is up, I have to press that. In all this, the player starts looking at its UI and ignoring the game world.
Ugh yes, no 'chains' in Pantheon, please! Whether it be for the player only, or together as a group like it was in EQ2!
AgentGenX said:
Aethor said:Games sometimes devolve into reaction clicking - now this icon popped, so I have to click this other icon, now this status is up, I have to press that. In all this, the player starts looking at its UI and ignoring the game world.
Ugh yes, no 'chains' in Pantheon, please! Whether it be for the player only, or together as a group like it was in EQ2!
Did you guys play VG?
Crit chains were an awesome part of combat, they weren't to reaction based unless they were really good crit chains but usually you had a good 5-10 seconds to click if you wanted too. Depending on Endurance or Mana, sometimes I would leave them and choose another ability that was more important to use in that particular situation, that was also something that made VG combat so good, choices like that, allowing us to manage our combat the way we liked, which helped set great players apart from good players.
I am not sure what the EQ 2 ones were like but VG definitely did it right in my opinion.
There were a couple of quest lines and encounters in EQ 1 that I liked. 1. Queyos badge of Honor: fun roleplay stuff, a hard single fight or two some that needed a group, an interesting puzzle, and surprise faction with bonus gnoll community through surefall at the end. 2. the Female lycanthrope Raid mini-boss in Demi plane, as a werewolf, had to kill down to a certain percentage, when she changed back to human form- all DPS has to go on adds and all the healers needed to heal the target back up to full health! in a certain amount of time, a few times. 3. Sigil earing of veracity. Neat plot line that took you all over the place, gradual knowledge of lore and knowledge of progressively losing faction, interesting single and group and group plus, fights. Culminating in the item from a raid target at the end. And the nice thing was, I was able to tag along with a guild- wanting nothing but the head if possible- while they went for the other good stuff, if no one wanted the head.
Kilsin said:
AgentGenX said:
Aethor said:Games sometimes devolve into reaction clicking - now this icon popped, so I have to click this other icon, now this status is up, I have to press that. In all this, the player starts looking at its UI and ignoring the game world.
Ugh yes, no 'chains' in Pantheon, please! Whether it be for the player only, or together as a group like it was in EQ2!
Did you guys play VG?
Crit chains were an awesome part of combat, they weren't to reaction based unless they were really good crit chains but usually you had a good 5-10 seconds to click if you wanted too. Depending on Endurance or Mana, sometimes I would leave them and choose another ability that was more important to use in that particular situation, that was also something that made VG combat so good, choices like that, allowing us to manage our combat the way we liked, which helped set great players apart from good players.
I am not sure what the EQ 2 ones were like but VG definitely did it right in my opinion.
Personal combat chains in VG were great. EQ2 chains that require you to have every ability on a hotbar (like 4 hotbars) and not inside a multi-ability macro just to see which one is lighting up so you can continue a group combo was really more annoying than anything.
In my opinion the challenge is what makes games fun. It can at times make you frustrated and what not, but that makes it all the more sweeter when you finally execute a plan perfectly and everyone in the group is in sync, it's truly a feeling you can't create by just having an awesomely scripted boss fight with all kinds of effects and pizazz but no challenge. MMO's nowadays seem to be made with the idea that the rewarding aspect of a game is when you complete something and get your little banana sticker and have abunch of robots say you're the most powerful superduper hero in the entire world. The problem with that is usually they act like you're special wayyy too soon after beginning and you also usually see 5 or 6 other players doing the exact same thing you did and receiving the exact same praise, it makes the experience cheap and gets old quickly.
I personally only feel accomplished after I did something that maybe not many players were able to do, or in a way that was much harder than was necessary.(raiding things with less players than you should for example, or duo'ing dungeons with a friend that should have a 5 man team) It makes you really have the feeling of overcoming incredible odds and there's no way to recreate that in my mind without a challenging experience.
Manouk said:
There were a couple of quest lines and encounters in EQ 1 that I liked. 1. Queyos badge of Honor: fun roleplay stuff, a hard single fight or two some that needed a group, an interesting puzzle, and surprise faction with bonus gnoll community through surefall at the end. 2. the Female lycanthrope Raid mini-boss in Demi plane, as a werewolf, had to kill down to a certain percentage, when she changed back to human form- all DPS has to go on adds and all the healers needed to heal the target back up to full health! in a certain amount of time, a few times. 3. Sigil earing of veracity. Neat plot line that took you all over the place, gradual knowledge of lore and knowledge of progressively losing faction, interesting single and group and group plus, fights. Culminating in the item from a raid target at the end. And the nice thing was, I was able to tag along with a guild- wanting nothing but the head if possible- while they went for the other good stuff, if no one wanted the head.
I like encounters and quests like that, they definitely liven things up! :)
Dullahan said:
Kilsin said:
AgentGenX said:
Aethor said:Games sometimes devolve into reaction clicking - now this icon popped, so I have to click this other icon, now this status is up, I have to press that. In all this, the player starts looking at its UI and ignoring the game world.
Ugh yes, no 'chains' in Pantheon, please! Whether it be for the player only, or together as a group like it was in EQ2!
Did you guys play VG?
Crit chains were an awesome part of combat, they weren't to reaction based unless they were really good crit chains but usually you had a good 5-10 seconds to click if you wanted too. Depending on Endurance or Mana, sometimes I would leave them and choose another ability that was more important to use in that particular situation, that was also something that made VG combat so good, choices like that, allowing us to manage our combat the way we liked, which helped set great players apart from good players.
I am not sure what the EQ 2 ones were like but VG definitely did it right in my opinion.Personal combat chains in VG were great. EQ2 chains that require you to have every ability on a hotbar (like 4 hotbars) and not inside a multi-ability macro just to see which one is lighting up so you can continue a group combo was really more annoying than anything.
Thanks for the info Dulla, my only experience with EQ2 was playing the trial a few times while VG was down for maintenance and it just wasn't holding my attention.
That does sound pretty annoying!
Happytrees said:
In my opinion the challenge is what makes games fun. It can at times make you frustrated and what not, but that makes it all the more sweeter when you finally execute a plan perfectly and everyone in the group is in sync, it's truly a feeling you can't create by just having an awesomely scripted boss fight with all kinds of effects and pizazz but no challenge. MMO's nowadays seem to be made with the idea that the rewarding aspect of a game is when you complete something and get your little banana sticker and have abunch of robots say you're the most powerful superduper hero in the entire world. The problem with that is usually they act like you're special wayyy too soon after beginning and you also usually see 5 or 6 other players doing the exact same thing you did and receiving the exact same praise, it makes the experience cheap and gets old quickly.
I personally only feel accomplished after I did something that maybe not many players were able to do, or in a way that was much harder than was necessary.(raiding things with less players than you should for example, or duo'ing dungeons with a friend that should have a 5 man team) It makes you really have the feeling of overcoming incredible odds and there's no way to recreate that in my mind without a challenging experience.
Yeah nice post mate, I feel the same way, no one ever enjoys things handed to them, it may satisfy a few people immediately but not in the long run, games feel empty and shallow when they just give you shiny things, it feel almost desperate to try and keep you paying them money!
For me, the challenge is the fun. The most difficult encounters have been the ones that keep players logging in. Getting by one obstacle after another. Pouring over logs looking for the pattern. I certainly hope PROTF is full of encounters that we are talking about a decade later. Nobody remembers the easy ones.
Filzin said:
For me, the challenge is the fun. The most difficult encounters have been the ones that keep players logging in. Getting by one obstacle after another. Pouring over logs looking for the pattern. I certainly hope PROTF is full of encounters that we are talking about a decade later. Nobody remembers the easy ones.
Exactly mate, whether we talk about group or raid, the most memorable fights are always the ones that are the hardest or take the longest to work out.
Filzin said:
For me, the challenge is the fun. The most difficult encounters have been the ones that keep players logging in. Getting by one obstacle after another. Pouring over logs looking for the pattern. I certainly hope PROTF is full of encounters that we are talking about a decade later. Nobody remembers the easy ones.
haha, I remember the easy ones. I remember Killing a shadowblade in heedmar. Was kind of easy. Just poking at ya Filzin. I agree though which easy encounter do you remember that was fun.
I remember Shendu, Tharidon, Karax, Sisters, Kotasoth (best looking dragon ever) or how about the summoners, Rinpin and such. Even better do you remember the all fathers?