I know several people here really loved the text based / commands, but the point of a new mmo is to move past technical restrictions in the past, but keep the same feeling, playability, and fun factor as before.
That being said I personally in 2015 dont want to revert back to / commands as that was only implemented due to technical restrictions at the time to perform certain tasks like a MUD. So instead of being closed off to anything we should be looking at how can we help progress the game notifications of how difficult a mob or encounter is going to be. As many of you have said the /con system had some bugs in it regards to sometimes random under con, or magic users were actually harder than melee etc. The system had issues and we need to move forward.
Size is one way to measure the strength of something, but not something I really like either. Most games makes really hard things pretty much just bigger.
I feel we should be able to add in stuff visually to help represent the strength of an encounter. One thing I really liked in EQ2 is that once you got above 10 levels of a mob when it grayed out to you the humanoids would cringe at the site of you showing you were more than a match for them.
simple displays like that can and would go a long way. we also have to think if we want death to mean something we have to have valid ways to determine if we can fight a certain mob/encounter or not. Otherwise there would be too much frustration trying to enjoy something if you are consistently being beat down trying to progress through.
Docka said:
I know several people here really loved the text based / commands, but the point of a new mmo is to move past technical restrictions in the past, but keep the same feeling, playability, and fun factor as before.
That being said I personally in 2015 dont want to revert back to / commands as that was only implemented due to technical restrictions at the time to perform certain tasks like a MUD. So instead of being closed off to anything we should be looking at how can we help progress the game notifications of how difficult a mob or encounter is going to be. As many of you have said the /con system had some bugs in it regards to sometimes random under con, or magic users were actually harder than melee etc. The system had issues and we need to move forward.
Size is one way to measure the strength of something, but not something I really like either. Most games makes really hard things pretty much just bigger.
I feel we should be able to add in stuff visually to help represent the strength of an encounter. One thing I really liked in EQ2 is that once you got above 10 levels of a mob when it grayed out to you the humanoids would cringe at the site of you showing you were more than a match for them.
simple displays like that can and would go a long way. we also have to think if we want death to mean something we have to have valid ways to determine if we can fight a certain mob/encounter or not. Otherwise there would be too much frustration trying to enjoy something if you are consistently being beat down trying to progress through.
You have to remember, there's much more to /consider than assessing strength of a mob or player; it also tells you how an NPC regards you. I guess if it makes you feel better, they could just make Consideration a skill that you can put on your hotbar and bind to a hotkey. That's essentially how it already worked in EQ anyway with it being bound to a button as well as activated by right-clicking an NPC.
I think its become an element of RPGs that has gone by the wayside. For example, just this week I was beta testing a new game and came across a number of NPCs out in the world and in cities and I couldn't help but wonder, how do these npcs regard me? Am I safe to approach them? Am I supposed to just attack them (I don't even know them, maybe we could be friends)? Can I improve my reputation with them? Is there even a reason to? This genre used to be about creating "choose your own adventures", but now you are only given the illusion of choice. Of course most games don't need a /con system, you have no real choices to make so a simple color indicator tells you everything you need to know.
The fact that the MMORPG has become so streamlined that you no longer have to consider your reputation is a sign that we've gotten off track somewhere. Alignment was one of those genre-defining mechanics that gave meaning to your actions. Its imperative for there to be a system that tracks your decisions and allows you to consider your reputation if the player is going to have a meaningful interaction with the world. Today its missing and I can only hope that the Pantheon team remembers this and includes some form of /con system, even if its a more modernized version... no matter how antiquated some people think it is.
Docka said:
I feel we should be able to add in stuff visually to help represent the strength of an encounter. One thing I really liked in EQ2 is that once you got above 10 levels of a mob when it grayed out to you the humanoids would cringe at the site of you showing you were more than a match for them.
I have been on the boards of many games when discussions about the UI occur and it is clear people do not agree on the basics. Some players want tons of information in the UI, as if they were playing a FPS, while others want to keep your focus on the mobs not tons of combat data streaming in, some developers try to do both by keeping the UI minimal but providing hooks for third party plug-ins to do all kinds of things. I think you will find two camps, one says that you can't be effective in combat without lots of data on mobs, and the other says it's a virtual world and you want a clean interface with minimal information to keep players focused on the world.
In some sense the /consider command, or some method of asking about a mobs strength, is a great compromise. There really is no need to see the difficulty of every mob every single time you encounter it. The gnolls in blackburrow are named for their level and difficulty (gnoll pup, patrolling gnoll, gnoll brewer, gnoll commander, etc.) Maybe the first time you see a new one you /con it, but within a very short time you've got it and you really don't need a constant visual reminder. In other words, you don't rely on the UI, you learn the zone. For me, I'd rather keep things simple, I'd rather have the world be the world and mob difficulty have a minimal affect on what I see, just give me a means to assess the mobs so I get a feel for their strength and I'll learn the rest.
I also think EQ had it right in another respect. There was no point where you could just forget about lower level mobs. Sure some mobs knew to avoid someone 10 levels above them, but some would attack if they hated you enough, others would not attack unless they felt you were vulnerable, and others didn't care and would attack you regardless of level. Think about it, a humanoid might be smart enough to know to avoid you, but a wolf isn't going to care it will attack you if it regards you as a threat. That's the way it should be, the world forces you to learn which mobs will help one another, which will be opportunistic, which like you and which hate you, and which are smart enough to avoid you.
Docka said:
I know several people here really loved the text based / commands, but the point of a new mmo is to move past technical restrictions in the past, but keep the same feeling, playability, and fun factor as before.
That being said I personally in 2015 dont want to revert back to / commands as that was only implemented due to technical restrictions at the time to perform certain tasks like a MUD.
First I would say, that just because something existed the way that it did because of a technical limitation doesn't mean that it is bad. You realize that people have said just that about the entire RPG genre right? that turn based, tactical or statistics based gameplay only existed because of limitations? Instead of questioning if it was a technical limitation, ask yourself what the best way to handle it is. Furthermore I actually can't think of a single mmo that has no text commands, they just are optional in modern offerings which further supports the idea that they exist outside of limitations.
Additionally, the /con system (actually comparing to the /check system from final fantasy xi since that is what I am familiar with and it is almost the same) does not even need to be a text command, if that is what the problem is (though I see no reason to remove the text command as an option). It could just as easily be added as an option from a drop down menu when clicking on your selected enemy.
if you tie it into the skill system i think it would be great! but i would also like to get more info out of the /con when my skill is higher. if i /con a mob with a skill of 1 maybe i just get the origonal eq responses, while if i do it with a skill of 5000 (whatever max is) i would like to see hitpoints, mana, and something i can estimate how hard it will hit from.
A skill system would be nice. I would assume intelligence would be effecting skill leveling again, would it be good to have it effect cons as well possibly?
Also, should classes be used as a factor for what information is received from the con as well. Caster classes can recognize if the mobs have spell capabilities, or maybe specific spell types. Melee's could recognize abilities based on their (the characters, not the actual person, it would be a work-around to trying to make npc's have identifying stances etc) interpretation of npc's stances, rangers could tell which mobs are rabid, or if they are likely traveling with others.
Just as well, on that note, you could go the simpler route of not making class specific con results, but rather having the skill level be based on mob-types for con's, as in the more orc's you get to con, the more information you might glean from your con's.
I'm not sure if these would be necessary though, since most of them could be (and possibly should be?) handled with the visual appearance of the npc's.
Aradune said:
The current plan is no visual indicator, but you will be able to /con mobs. How accurate the /con is, however, is something we are thinking about tying into the skill system or another system. Would love your feedback on this idea.
I do like the idea of /con having an accuracy scale. This group of players wants to work to gain skills and I think they would enjoy being able to "skill up" /con in a way. Perhaps researching/studying the mob type before hand or killing lesser version of it could contribute to that accuracy.
I love the idea of /con being tied to a skill, anything that can add risk and unpredictability to a game genre that has become mind numbingly repetitive and predictable is a step up in my book.
Con being skillbased could open up some different roles in group (might have people who focus on tracking/conning. maybe even go a bit further with the idea and have some way to detect monster strength and weakness?) not to mention the added respect for the gameworld that this would give players, if they had a chance of receiving some bad info on a mob's difficulty it may make them think twice before pulling mobs carelessly/wandering around aimlessly.
Eq /con was perfect you could right click to see how difficult plus how the npc felt towards you.
Green, you could probably win this fight.
Blue, appears to be quite formidable
White, looks like quite a gamble.
Yellow, looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
Red, what would you like your tombstone to say?
Faction messages
scowls at you, ready to attack
glares at you threateningly
glowers at you dubiously
looks your way apprehensively
regards you indifferently
judges you amiably
kindly considers you
looks upon you warmly
regards you as an ally
Was quick being able to just right click.
Mob difficulty information should be readily apparent without having to interact with the enemy at all, imo.
Name outlined in red to indicate hostility, targetting ring to indicate hitbox size as well as mob level in relation to your own, targetting window should display the mob's level in a numerical format. Even class wouldn't be a big deal, although that can probably be extrapolated based on other factors quick enough to be irrelevant.
Faction level can be indicated with symbols like EQOA (small faces with varying expressions depending on faction range), in addition to having a UI panel with faction levels in numerical format with easy to understand mechnical information (e.g.: apprehensive allows you to use vendors, ally allows you to receive hidden quests, etc.).
If mobs of varying difficulty levels exist independent of level range (heroic, epic, etc.) then that should be displayed too.
Aradune said:The current plan is no visual indicator, but you will be able to /con mobs. How accurate the /con is, however, is something we are thinking about tying into the skill system or another system. Would love your feedback on this idea.
Think on this then: As a player encounters and interacts with a race over time, the /con messages become more accurate. The message should be relevant to the comparison between your class, level, stats (and perhaps the 'level' of gear worn*) and the same attributes of the particular NPC you are trying to /con.
*I mention gear because, frankly, gear does make a difference. Fighting an NPC naked is a very different experience than when you are wearing all your gear. It also might serve a subtle notice to you that some parts of your gear need updated. Then we have twinking. We've all seen how insanely powerful low level characters are when outfitted with powerful gear and high level buffs. Your character knows he/she is more powerful than it should be so their /con should reflect that.
I liked the simple right click con that EQ gave, because it was quick and to the point. You knew if you could get around them without conflict etc.
However, since it sounds like Pantheon will be about equipping the correct gear or using the right skills to defeat the different mob sets, I think this portion of the /con skill needs to be built up with experience in dealing with these types of mobs in the world and how successfully you handled your victory / loss. If you were to fight a top contender for the first time, you never really know what to expect or how hard they will be considering your own skill sets. There is certainly a "feeling out" process to overcome...
Pantheon mobs should have the same feel, building more information about the mobs race over experience, but also combining with the mobs class / skills which apply to many other races... So naturally, a veteran player will have a greater /con knowledge of the world because they have experienced it. Some veterans more than others based on their "mob race" experience.
If this is supposed to be a real world, then I really hope we avoid these kinds of visual indicators. The . system in EQ2 and VG was lowest common denominator stuff. We don't need to be told not to attack a mob without a group. If we attack it and get destroyed, we learn. Let us figure things out like we do in life, by making mistakes.
Liav said:Mob difficulty information should be readily apparent without having to interact with the enemy at all, imo.
Name outlined in red to indicate hostility, targetting ring to indicate hitbox size as well as mob level in relation to your own, targetting window should display the mob's level in a numerical format. Even class wouldn't be a big deal, although that can probably be extrapolated based on other factors quick enough to be irrelevant.
Faction level can be indicated with symbols like EQOA (small faces with varying expressions depending on faction range), in addition to having a UI panel with faction levels in numerical format with easy to understand mechnical information (e.g.: apprehensive allows you to use vendors, ally allows you to receive hidden quests, etc.).
If mobs of varying difficulty levels exist independent of level range (heroic, epic, etc.) then that should be displayed too.
I think we are going to disagree on pretty much everything. Why would you want all these visual indicators in a virtual world? What you're talking about completely ruins immersion. This isn't an arcade game. You can extrapolate almost ALL of what you said you wanted. What level is a mob that hits for 68? What level is a mob that can cast Blood Boil? It's not hard. We don't need all these indicators for thing we will figure out on our own.
Docka said:As many of you have said the /con system had some bugs in it regards to sometimes random under con, or magic users were actually harder than melee etc. The system had issues and we need to move forward.
That wasn't an issue with the /con system, that was an issue with the way the game was designed. Casters hit as hard as melee AND had spells. And again, you KNEW they were harder after you experienced it, so why do you need to be told they are harder every single time you encounter one? You already know it. You've known it since level 4 when that kobold shaman slowed you and nuked you, and you started employing tactics and strategy against those mobs probably immediately after. Why hundreds of hours of gameplay later do you need to be told on the UI that a level 40 caster is harder than a level 40 melee mob?
Personally, I'd prefer having the info on the nameplate rather than having to press the consider button. A simple color code for hostility and a level icon to show to allow me to estimate my chances of success. This would not give more information than the EQ con system, it could be tied to skill if that's in. But it would remove an annoyance.
But then again, I like my UI populated with useful informations and dislike the minimalistic trend, so I'm bound to disagree with many on this subject. This could be avoided if the UI was customizable...
Aradune said:The current plan is no visual indicator, but you will be able to /con mobs. How accurate the /con is, however, is something we are thinking about tying into the skill system or another system. Would love your feedback on this idea.
I still prefer the minimalist EQ approach. But, I've enjoyed playing Project Gorgon, which uses an interesting skill based system. Project Gorgon actually has a lot of neat skill ideas and it would fall along the lines of the skill system if you were to include one.
The gist is there's a base anatomy skill, in which, after you kill a mob you can use an autoposy kit. And, based off the "type" of mob, your knowledge increases /con improves with more mob information. So, basically, the more you kill, the more you learn. Anatomy is the base skill, but then you have additional secondary skill modifiers when using autoposy Such as:
Abberation anatomy
Elven Anatomy
Orc Anatomy, etc.
I've included a link to the wiki below which fully explains it:
Aradune said:The current plan is no visual indicator, but you will be able to /con mobs. How accurate the /con is, however, is something we are thinking about tying into the skill system or another system. Would love your feedback on this idea.
Tying it into a skill system would be perfect! Could have different classes/races be more or less skilled at /con-ing. For example, a Ranger or Druid would better at evaluating animals while maybe a Dire Lord would be better at evaluating undead. Something like that.
For me it was plain and simple EQ’s version was my favorite; I enjoyed when I con’d a mob and saw that it was a Red, Yellow, White, Blue, Light Blue, Green, and Grey. However, not really knowing if a mob fell in that range such as an undercon’d mob, it would show-up Blue or Light Blue and still kill you. I think I prefer the EQ way as compared to VG, and I really did like VG’s con system as well but I preferred EQ’s. As long as Pantheon has some sort of conning system I think it would be fine with whatever they come-up with, but please include the undercon’s just to spice things up a bit… Anyone remember Garanel Rucksif from Unrest… What a lovely undercon that sent me to my grave many times…
Aradune said:The current plan is no visual indicator, but you will be able to /con mobs. How accurate the /con is, however, is something we are thinking about tying into the skill system or another system. Would love your feedback on this idea.
I agree with no visual indicator and a /con system similar to EQ. Just make sure we can make a hotkey for it. I would be OK tying this to a learned skill system, similar to sense heading from EQ. Get better by doing. Some races or classes may start with a higher base ability than others. Skill trainers to help you get caught up with a little coin if you fall behind (i.e. guildmasters from EQ). I could see this working very well.
I would avoid tying the /con ability to an assignable points pool. Example: If you level up and have 2 stat points to allocate. I dont want to be chosing between sense heading, /con, flower picking ability, and STR, STA, DEX, etc. This would likely lead to a lot of minmaxers with crappy /con ability. In a group game, we all have to live with these choices. "Sorry for the wipe guys, I didnt know it would aggro. I can't /con. I didnt put any points in it" or "I know I'm a monk, but this is my raid build. I didnt waste any points in /con. Someone else needs to pull." These are the scenario's I'd like to avoid.
While i'm all for a wide variety of old school systems, this is one i'm not a fan of. Conning mobs was never interesting to me.
I'm also not a fan of the use of "The", "A", "An" before a mobs name. I've always seen this as unecassary clutter.
I like these thoughts:
Dullahan said:
I liked the EQ consider system. I want to know my reputation or faction with an NPC, and a little info about how powerful I think the NPC may be.
I actually think it would be cool if there was a stat or skill that improved your ability to size up an NPC and better determine just how weak or powerful it may be.
I was in STO the other day (got a lifetime subscription but had never used it).
Anyways, during tutorial, I suddenly noticed a difficulty indicator, set at Normal; between Easy and Difficult.
Aside Kayd's not intended mob change (a previous post in this topic), I did think of just that:
What if your group pulls a mob; it's default is 'easy', becasue that is the zone's default for that mob.
Then when the mob is still above 90%, the group leader switches it to difficult; upping the mob.
What would the effects be?
- Higher players in lower zones?
- Higher loot tables?
What do you think?