Any type of a bonus that'd effect in-game characters is a bad idea, and a direction in the mmo genre that I THINK has been acknowledged by the dev's as a way they won't be going. Slippery slope and all that.
Besides, you have a group of friends that play together, if one has the % bonus, they will outlevel their friends, and as a result won't pay the extra to avoid that. People tend to find others who play around the same schedule and time periods they do, and tend to stay in the same pack, are familiar faces, etc, making it easier for that crowd to be changing is something that effects the community as a whole imo. It's nice seeing that mage from level 12 in oasis, now at 25 inside lower guk LFG as well as you.
Another reason, what happens when the person maxes their level, they downgrade their sub? Personally I think 15/month is the way to go, to reach as many potential players as possible - and then later re-evaluate whether it is feasible to raise the cost. That or just make some real life fan items that can be purchased as a way for extra funding.
I'd pay double the cost myself for a mouse pad, hat, key chain, etc that I found appealing
Well that would give them more time to do crafting and other things you know? Honestly a 10% increase in exp for 10 bucks a month is hardly anything at all when you think about it. Also they could go the increase coin loot route instead, maybe giving 10% to coin received from looting. 1gp looted turning into 1gp 10s looted wouldn't be too much of a bonus at all but like I said, it's just a little something to make the 25$ plan be justified and nudge people towards that sub.
I do agree with you that it could be a slippery slope but as I said the aim was to just create incentive and to keep any benefit of it very minor, or not to do with performance in combat/character progression at all, meaning basically just vanity items and titles or something perhaps.
Either way I just don't think having a flat 25$/mo fee would turn out well, nor do I think having the 15,20,25/mo options w/o any kind of benefit would turn out well as far as having a decent portion of the players go 25 or 20 instead of the lowest cost. I know that Visionary would use the money for creating more, better content but that just wouldn't be as appealing as having a tangible benefit that is apparent immediately in-game.
I'm almost always against cashshops and am always against Pay 2 Win, but this game needs better funding and if a damn near insignificant bonus would make a few people want to pay 10 extra bucks a month then I say do it. Better than having to get an investor who makes abunch of ridiculous demands or having to keep the game from its full potential due to a tight budgett.
It has been a while since I have posted on this topic but one thing I have noticed that not many people are taking into account. IF this is a NICHE game then what happens once that NICHE population starts to decrease? Lets face it folks, we are not getting any younger and unlike the games we have loved to play there is no "rejuvination/regeneration" spell going to stop us from aging. Because the NICHE population is older now most people have more money to spend but what about the teenagers or younger generations that might join the NICHE population? If the price of the subscription is too high, the younger folks will not be able to afford the game and the game will die because of lack of population/income from the older NICHE population because each year there will be fewer people in that group.
For this reason I think the monthly subscription rate should be no more than $20. That is a feasible amount for most teenagers and college kids to afford and once they are hooked you can add them to the Niche crowd. I also think that for $20 a month there should be some kind of guideline/criteria that the extra $5 a month gets the subscriber. I do not want to see any kind of cash shop or pay to win type system in Pantheon. For the extra money a month the subscriber would get a dedicated Guide/Customer Service person to deal with every time they submit a problem/petition.. The subscriber would be allowed to pay for the expansion(s) over time rather than a one time lump sum payment. These are just a couple of suggestions off the top of my head.
I will say that with the amount of money that I have pledged for this game that I will have two accounts to play. According to the original team the first account will be extremely discounted per month but the second account I will have to pay full monthly subscription price. Since the wife pledged the same amount I did, she will also have two accounts. This means I will be having to pay for two secondary accounts at the full monthly subscription price and every time an expansion comes out I will have to buy 4 copies of said expansion at the full price. That adds up awfully fast.
Just another idea
How about a "3d Print" button on character selection screen... A service that would 3d print Your character, exactly how it looks now, with the exact same appearance / gear. That 3d printed and painted figure would be posted to your billing address. What do you think guys ?
Lodizal said:
Just another idea
How about a "3d Print" button on character selection screen... A service that would 3d print Your character, exactly how it looks now, with the exact same appearance / gear. That 3d printed and painted figure would be posted to your billing address. What do you think guys ?
Dude, that is a sick idea.
I actually looked up 3d printer costs in response to this thread. A good one is like $2-3k on amazon, but I'm sure they go up from there for creating larger objects.
This got me thinking of all the cool ways to integrate 3d printing into the game. You could have like a journal that keeps notes of places you go, general things you learn, and dialogue between yourself and npcs. You could include a section of the journal that was a beastiary that showed a 3d model of different mobs or notable npcs you meet, a description, and an "Order 3d Print button" (or perhaps have this all through a separate website for immersion purposes). If I had an option like this in EQ, I'm pretty sure my entire house would have been filled wall to wall with frogloks, sarnaks, all the baddest bosses and gods I fought and of course my characters equipped in all my favorite robes and suits of armor.
It would really have to be a separate business, or something that was outsourced, because creating these things and having them hand painted would take a lot of time. Anyway, we digress.
McDonald's Dollar Menu (which you consume in 10 minutes) - $4 assuming fries, burger, drink
Two cocktails during happy hour in a Big City bar (you also consume these in 10 minutes) - $12
Club admittance to see the band Orgy perform for 2 hours at Vamp's in Las Vegas (no really) - $15, plus $7 for every 12 ounces of Bud Light in a plastic cup (which you consume in 5 minutes and order anew every 20 minutes; you skip the hot dog.)
Movie ticket for One, to Avengers (2 hours of entertainment) plus drink and popcorn, in the evening - $27
A new pair of Skechers from the outlet store (note: they aren't really any cheaper, just last season, lasting not more than 6 months) - $60
The cost of a subscription to your favorite fantasy MMO (unlimited hours gaming time, per month, plus savings from lack of eating and drinking while gaming) - $15
The answer is yes, I would pay more than $15.
Im at the point where i would pay like 30 or even 40 Bucks per Month if the Game can hold my Interest for along Time. Since i buy way more Games in a Month otherwise if i dont have a Mmorpg to keep Playing. In the 7 Years i been playing Everquest i spent less Money on other Games so the 15 Dollars been actually less then what i would have usualy spent for Games. So at the end i save money with Mmorpgs :).
And compared to what you spend Money on otherwise its still Cheap i think.
Anyway believe me, im not Rich or so, thats just my Point of View.
I had to think on this a while... and based on what Aradune suggested, I can see paying $20 - 25 a month if as new content comes along its included or at low cost. What I question about such an approach is, How do handle new players, say some one who starts playing 2 months before an expansion?
That aside, It's still the cheapest entertainment you can buy.
Castwell said:
That aside, It's still the cheapest entertainment you can buy.
This.
I've done the math for my wife, who needed to understand the actual value of MMO gaming versus virtually any other recreational expense. Nothing comes close to MMO gaming value, even if you replace a PC every 2 years and account for the biannual replacement as part of the MMO gaming cost (assuming the PC gets used for no other purpose than MMO gaming, and you apply all of the costs to that account).
Under the most absurd accounting, with a new $1800 rig every 2 years, and playing 5 hours per week (which we all would exceed, but hear me out), at $25 per month, MMO gaming still ends up only costing $4 per hour. No other form of entertainment can come anywhere close, even under the most anti-MMO accounting model.
For the normal player of a niche game like this, it would be closer to 10-15 hours per week, with a computer on a 4 year life cycle that is used for other purposes besides MMO gaming. That drives the MMO cost down to approximately $1-1.25 an hour. Name any other form of paid entertainment that tops $1 an hour. And I am assuming $25 as the monthly subscription fee.
From an opportunity cost basis, it therefore takes very little sacrifice in other areas to facilitate the $25 monthly MMO. That said, what that $25 does compete with is $0-15 per month MMO games as the comparables within the market. Does your niche game scratch an itch no other game can? Therein lies the real question on whether $25 or more is "worth it" or not. Does the game so far exceed every other MMO in satisfying your particular MMO requirements that it's worth it?
Now, as for the micro-trans market and making money that way, it should be cosmetic, early donation/backer rewards, and the like, but nothing that makes the game "pay to win." Special mounts, housing plots/items, gear transmogs, titles, that kind of thing. All that can be part of the micro-trans money makers and not really affect the game at all.
Once again everyone to talking big picture and that is fine but one thing that people are not factoring into the price/equation is the cost of Internet per month. For me that price is $60 a month right now but I suspect that within the next 2 years that will go from 60 to $75 a month then you add in the subscription price and the actual cost of buying the game. For the sake of this discussion I will say that the game will sell for about $45 add in appropriate taxes and you are looking at close to $50 for the game, then you will get the normal 15 or 21 or 20 day free trial and then you will have to pay for the first subscription rate before you can log into the game to apply whatever discounts or such that you receive from being a backer of the game. So $60 for internet connection plus initial $50 for game purchase plus $25 for first subscription fee based on what people are saying they are willing to pay now... 60+50+25=$135 for the FIRST month for one/uno/a single/ichi/solo account.
I expect people to tear my math and logic apart. That is fine. What I am trying to point out is that while it may be cheaper than say going to see a movie once a week for a month the one thing that no one knows is the changes that are going to happen in this world that will cause the price of things to go up. I would rather start out somewhere in the middle, for me no more than $20 a month on subscriptions, and then modify the amount based on various factors.
I've always preferred the pay-to-play model myself. I understand that it costs money to keep a game online and updated regularly while continuously developing and testing new content. Plus there are many people working on the game that need to feed their families and pay their bills. That's why I never understood the gaming community's outrage at the concept of paying for a subscription.
However, the game would have to be an otherworldy experience to justify a subscription fee that far exceeds the standard. Even if it were just a few dollars more, do you really think it would be wise to try to raise the standard fee for the genre? That would be setting themselves up for some serious admonishment from the reviewers if the game were anything less than a truly groundbreaking, genre-changing experience. I have faith it will be a great game, but I'm also realistic and don't expect them to magically leapfrog the next few generations of MMOs.
I'd pay $20/month without hesitation, but I think they should stick to the standard $15/month. A limited online store would help generate extra income, and I'd have no problem with that. Whatever keeps the servers up and the content rolling in. I'd just like to see them do it in such a way that they don't get bad press for it. I'm afraid demanding more money, when much of the gaming community these days is complaining about having to pay anything at all, would generate a lot of negative feedback.
@Sogotp -
You'd be paying for internet either way, same as you'd have a computer either way. A niche PC based MMO appeals to a specific demographic within the PC based MMO market. All of those people already own PCs and already pay for Internet. Pantheon, or any other niche game for that matter, will not be marketed to the iTard app knuckleheads, and won't likely be even known about outside PC based MMO gaming circles. Bottom line, anyone playing Pantheon will have a gaming PC and Internet already, now and forever, even if Pantheon never goes gold. You're an MMO gamer on a niche MMO game's alpha/dev forums talking about a game that doesn't actually exist right now....methinks you already have internet and a PC for this exercise, and would be gaming either way. M I rite?
Now that said, I do agree that anything past the standard $15 needs to be seriously justified beyond "duh, it's a niche game and we're all paying our hipster fee because we play a game nobody likes cuz we're cool and ironic." Show me a reason to pay more than what everyone else charges. By all means, be that game and I'll happily pay it.
I would have to say $25 a month for a game would be my max. Not that I could not afford more but like others have said it starts to shrink the chances of inviting new people. I have some friends who will not play a game that is not free to play. I have always had the mindset that paid sub games are always better because it has constant income coming in. Most other models like the micro trans and all the other various models that have been tried proven at least in my opinion not to work. The tried and trusted sub is the best fit for the health and longevity of a game. With that being said though when you have a sub based game that does come with some expectations of what is being delivered for the money being paid. I still suffer and pay for wow even though I am at my last few breathes still playing that game simply because of friends.
OK Here is my thoughts/comments:
I am playing Everquest right now on Lockjaw Progression server. In the forums they are talking about starting a ruleset for a no box 1 client per a PC server. According to what i am hearing this will be happening. this is happening because there are so many gamers that are sick over the over kill mage armies/bots (3rd party software) that exist so they want off the servers on to something that somewhat bans thier presence. Now from what i know running multiple accounts is a common thing!!! (2-3 accounts) I run 3 PCs/I have 3 accounts. So... right now so i am pushing 50.00 a month in subs. Then on top of that i have not only been using my monthly coins on EXP potions but adding funds to my account to buy more crap in the store but i am starting to slow down. But, will i buy more exp potions probably. So here is what i am getting at its not that i am spending too much money its how much i give as support and for the love of my entertainment. Ok lets look at another way people spend thier money on crapt they want wether its thru the drive thru, going to the theater, golfing, restuaraunts, whatever.. so when you really get down to it 14.99+tax isnt crap. Unless you live in your moms basement. no offense to anyone lol. So i am all for it if you want to take it up to 25.00 a month which that kind of monthly funding helps you do more then i say why not and Even then i can prob Gaurantee that i will have at least two accounts at min. Yall ever heard that saying its hard to do more with less. Look I enjoyed Everquest and still do.. MMOs> I have played them all and most of them i was just like i am done...Vanguard loved it... I want something to stick around and keep growing with out all the BURGER KING garbage they put in MMOs these days so ...I AM ALL IN for rate increase!!!!!!!!!
I am surprised this conversation is still going on, I feel like it should have been closed a while back. Aradune already confirmed that they will not be deviating from the standard, it is going to be $15 a month. I mean I guess you could still discuss alternative income (outside of the sub) but I think that a lot like the sub because of it being kindof an all in one deal (pay the sub and you get it all).
If you don't feel like trusting mephiles then here you go: http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6706141/#Comment_6706141
It's inevitable that any MMO grow in size. So FREE updates usually happen regardless of whether or not expansions are released at whatever fees they cost. 'Free' updates tend to range in size from smaller updates that fix a few bugs and add a few things to the world to very large updates that add in entire zones to new class skills to balancing class skills to adding new items etc. So to me it is hard to justify paying for certain Xpacs and DLC when we have received free updates close to as big as some of the Xpacs that cost money.
This is why I'd prefer to pay a larger amount for our subscription fee and NOT pay for any Xpacs or DLC rather than pay the standard $15/mo and then buy the Xpacs as they come out.
I'd be fine paying $25/mo with regular updates. These updates can be as small as a few bug fixes to as large as a full fledged Xpac.
But I'd also be fine with $15/mo (maaaaaybe $20/mo) and PAY for Xpacs. $20/mo is probably doable but would be the most I'd pay with knowing I would have to buy Xpacs down the road.
In the end most of the price formats tend to all cost the same at the end of the year anyways. I'd just prefer to spend a constant amount rather than large sums more sporadically.
Mephiles said:
I am surprised this conversation is still going on, I feel like it should have been closed a while back. Aradune already confirmed that they will not be deviating from the standard, it is going to be $15 a month. I mean I guess you could still discuss alternative income (outside of the sub) but I think that a lot like the sub because of it being kindof an all in one deal (pay the sub and you get it all).
If you don't feel like trusting mephiles then here you go: http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6706141/#Comment_6706141
This discussion is free to continue, we love hearing peoples thoughts and feedback, but you are correct, we have stated that we will use the standard $15/month subscription model.