Kilsin posted and stickied Pantheon's Tenets, Features and Summary today. (https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1613/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-g ; and https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1614/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-g )
I recognize a lot of the wording straight from the Kickstarter and for me this is a good thing. So many people have posted so much about the game since the kickstarter had closed, that I feared the game was changing course. I was happy to see that development is on track for the type of game I supported through kickstarter. I think this was needed to be posted to set the record straight what Pantheon still is. I understand that it was posted to explain Pantheon to new forum comers, but for us who have been around from the start and not in regular, direct contact with the development team, it was good to see as a reinforcement.
I also posted here as a place to discuss those posts since, those thread are locked (and I understand why).
I like what was posted - but I'm hoping they will spend some time and go "Beyond the blurb" in text.
That is, I'd like to see each of the tenets and game features fleshed out here with whatever the current thought happens to be. Because there is a key lesson I've learned in game forums over the years - write a blurb, and 800 different readers will ascertain 800 different meanings. And that is something that tends to cause forum angst (and occasionally fairly epic forum flame wars)
Simple example: "Gameplay will be challenging" - Challenging to me may mean something totally different than challenging to you.
I think the folks active on the forums today have a fairly common understanding of what each of the blurbs is saying.... but opening the forums to a wider audience is already under consideration, and even if they didn't do so now - that will inevitably happen eventually. I'm not sure that new readers to these forums will share the current community's common understanding of what the tenets mean as they are currently stated.
I don't think it's a "must do now" thing... more of an "in a free moment here, free moment there" thing to flesh them out.
Zarriya said:
Kilsin posted and stickied Pantheon's Tenets, Features and Summary today. (https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1613/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-g ; and https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1614/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-g )
I recognize a lot of the wording straight from the Kickstarter and for me this is a good thing. So many people have posted so much about the game since the kickstarter had closed, that I feared the game was changing course. I was happy to see that development is on track for the type of game I supported through kickstarter. I think this was needed to be posted to set the record straight what Pantheon still is. I understand that it was posted to explain Pantheon to new forum comers, but for us who have been around from the start and not in regular, direct contact with the development team, it was good to see as a reinforcement.
I also posted here as a place to discuss those posts since, those thread are locked (and I understand why).
Thanks Zarriya, it was posted for everyone, old and new as there was some confusion lately over some of the tenets and features, we are still holding true to the Kickstarter tenets even if a few small changes needed to be made as that is the game Brad wanted to make.
I am glad you found comfort in seeing them on the site, we should of done this a while ago ;)
Wandidar said:
I like what was posted - but I'm hoping they will spend some time and go "Beyond the blurb" in text.
That is, I'd like to see each of the tenets fleshed out here with whatever the current thought happens to be. Because there is a key lesson I've learned in game forums over the years - write a blurb, and 800 different readers will ascertain 800 different meanings. And that is something that tends to cause forum angst (and occasionally fairly epic forum flame wars)
Simple example: "Gameplay will be challenging" - Challenging to me may mean something totally different than challenging to you.
I think the folks active on the forums today have a fairly common understanding of what each of the blurbs is saying.... but opening the forums to a wider audience is already under consideration, and even if they didn't do so now - that will inevitably happen eventually. I'm not sure that new readers to these forums will share the current community's common understanding of what the tenets mean as they are currently stated.
I don't think it's a "must do now" thing... more of an "in a free moment here, free moment there" thing to flesh them out.
I really don't think this is needed and for a few reasons too, the team has always been open about our plans, the game is being created with EQ/VG in mind and any tenets up there referring to challenge will relate to the challenges we used to face in EQ/VG, there is no real explanation needed as they speak for themself or are explained in the game features and/or the game summary and that is why I closed the threads.
They are a list of the game tenets, features and a game summary that we are standing by and everyone here can now refer to them at will for clarification on topics that may be lacking information or filled more with personal opinion or confusion. While we understand people have differing opinions and understandings, we also know we cannot please everyone and we do not want too either, as we are trying to create a game following those tenets for a niche audience that enjoy gameplay, challenges, fantasy worlds and online social interactions similar to what we experienced in EQ/VG.
If anyone has a different understanding of a tenet or feature, we can refer to EQ/VG game experiences, the game features, the game summary or the Wiki, as they all explain that this game is being made as a spiritual successor to EQ/VG and we can even refer to you guys and girls, the community that without, Pantheon wouldn't even be possible to make, you are all very experienced on this topic and have more knowledge than the average player/supporter so we know we can also rely on you all to maturely and respectfully assist others in clarifying misconceptions and differing thoughts/idea's on what the tenets actually mean!
For any of the more disruptive problems, the Mod team and myself will always be around to post and help where needed but I really think the tenets speak for themselves to anyone that has ever played EQ or VG and any new player who reads these board will either find out very quickly from you all or be kindly informed by one of the team. ;)
Appreciate you posting those Kilsin, but I'll make the same recommendation that I made back at Kickstarter - I believe the following tenet is misleading at best. I believe it reads like taking the easy route in Pantheon will always be the most fun.
"An expectation that the path of least resistance should also be the most entertaining."
I would recommend more in line to something like:
"An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward" or "An expectation that the path of least resistance may not be the most entertaining or rewarding (I don't like using a negative though)"
Raidan said:
Appreciate you posting those Kilsin, but I'll make the same recommendation that I made back at Kickstarter - I believe the following tenet is misleading at best. I believe it reads like taking the easy route in Pantheon will always be the most fun.
"An expectation that the path of least resistance should also be the most entertaining."
I would recommend more in line to something like:
"An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward" or "An expectation that the path of least resistance may not be the most entertaining or rewarding (I don't like using a negative though)"
Yeah I paused on that one too when I saw it on the Kickstarter originally. Maybe it was a mistype and meant to say the "most resistance should be the most entertaining"?, thanks for catching it again, I will run it by the team and offer your replacement as an example.
Raidan has just done a fine job of making my point.
Here's the problem with brevity in description. Take the word "challenging" - as in "Pantheon will be challenging."
Well, to us old school folks, things like meaningful death penalties and meaningful travel are part of the challenge we are looking for. But, if pretty much every MMO forum out there is correct, to the MMO player who likes the theme park model, well, they will argue ardently that penalizing you for death and making you waste time getting from point A to point B have nothing to do with challenge and are only meaningless time sinks.
I do appreciate that you guys will do your best to mitigate and manage conversations here on the forums - but when the active poster population here grows from the 10's to the 100's - well, you can't be everywhere all the time... and you would burn yourself out trying.
The history on forums, even well moderated ones, is that full fledged flame wars, 10's of pages long can sometimes occur before a moderator ever steps foot in the thread.
I think such things are not necessary if people can simply cut and paste a paragraph that gives an absolute definitive cut and dry answer from the developer's stance.
In the interest of not being annoying or a problem myself, I'll now step off the soap box on the issue and let it drop.
EDIT: As to the point of "least resistance, most resistance" - it actually is LEAST resistance. Brad commented specifically on it during the kickstarter... I THINK in one of the video interviews he did. Least resistance doesn't mean "Easy" - it means if you are playing the game in the way it is intended (the least resistant way)
Raidan said:Appreciate you posting those Kilsin, but I'll make the same recommendation that I made back at Kickstarter - I believe the following tenet is misleading at best. I believe it reads like taking the easy route in Pantheon will always be the most fun.
"An expectation that the path of least resistance should also be the most entertaining."
I would recommend more in line to something like:
"An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward" or "An expectation that the path of least resistance may not be the most entertaining or rewarding (I don't like using a negative though)"
Wandidar said:EDIT: As to the point of "least resistance, most resistance" - it actually is LEAST resistance. Brad commented specifically on it during the kickstarter... I THINK in one of the video interviews he did. Least resistance doesn't mean "Easy" - it means if you are playing the game in the way it is intended (the least resistant way)
Brad did clarify it as you said - and I remember the video. I realize that it almost directly relates to the Rites of Passage system - that if you play the game as intended you will be rewarded and entertained, but if you grind grind grind, then it won't be as entertaining and the game will be more resistant.
I agree with your points though that the tenets are very subjective and based off personal interpretation. The general/generic tenets would only be common knowledge for Pantheon if you are closely following the project. If you were a new member joining without knowing the history of the project - the fleshed out tenets could be extremely beneficial to being proactive instead of reactive to forum moderation.
You could also have a collapsable list created for each tenet. Have the Tenet listed, then click the + to see what that means according to Pantheon.
*Edited after Joppa's previous response.
It was really great reading through all this again. I had forgot some of the specifics, as I haven't really looked at the Kickstarter page in a long time.
One point I found particularly interesting, which I don't specifically recall, reads: "The player can actively dodge, block, or deflect attacks..." I won't opine one way or the other on what this might mean for combat/gameplay, but I did find it interesting as this was never a feature I had included in my "mental map" (for lack of a better term) of Pantheon. As I write this I find myself considering how this might work. I'm sure that to most of you this isn't an issue, because you have gone forth since the Kickstarter with the understanding that this would be a mechanic. But for me it's new, so I'm now trying to squeeze it into the manifestation of Pantheon which exists in my head.
This turned out sounding like an acid trip, so I'm going to move on. LoL.
Nikademis said:
It was really great reading through all this again. I had forgot some of the specifics, as I haven't really looked at the Kickstarter page in a long time.
...snip...
I agree, Nikademis. It was nice to re-read these points again. It has renewed my excitement for the game.
Zarriya said:
Nikademis said:
It was really great reading through all this again. I had forgot some of the specifics, as I haven't really looked at the Kickstarter page in a long time.
...snip...I agree, Nikademis. It was nice to re-read these points again. It has renewed my excitement for the game.
Welcome back Zarriya :)
CanadinaXegony said:
Welcome back Zarriya :)
Indeed ! It's good to have ya back :)
Jason said:
CanadinaXegony said:
Welcome back Zarriya :)
Indeed ! It's good to have ya back :)
Awwshucks thank you guys. I read more than I type: I have always checked the forums, but I will try be a better contributor from now on. But please this thread isn't about me - lets talk about the tenets!
I do not want to hi-jack or de-rail this thread, but I would like to second that the Tenants should be fully explained. Mostly, because saying they will be similar to the EQ/VG experience means nothing to me.
Now it is possible I am the only person on this forum that did not play either of those games (I got into MMOs later in life). My only MMO experience comes from (World of Tanks, GW2, TERA, and FF14; like I said I started MMOs later) I did create a Lineage 2 character that I played for 20 or so levels just to see what the older MMOs looked like. However, I am sure Lineage 2 of 2014/2015 does not match how Lineage 2 used to be.
I obviously have picked up this game will be radically different than what I have played to date. Which is sort of the draw as my current MMO experience feels like I am missing something/found lacking. Though, the focus on group play is sort of scary for me, mostly because I lack any group of friends that frequently play MMOs, I am hopeful if I get in early I can find a Guild that can help with that.
DanF said:
I do not want to hi-jack or de-rail this thread, but I would like to second that the Tenants should be fully explained. Mostly, because saying they will be similar to the EQ/VG experience means nothing to me.
Now it is possible I am the only person on this forum that did not play either of those games (I got into MMOs later in life). My only MMO experience comes from (World of Tanks, GW2, TERA, and FF14; like I said I started MMOs later) I did create a Lineage 2 character that I played for 20 or so levels just to see what the older MMOs looked like. However, I am sure Lineage 2 of 2014/2015 does not match how Lineage 2 used to be.
I obviously have picked up this game will be radically different than what I have played to date. Which is sort of the draw as my current MMO experience feels like I am missing something/found lacking. Though, the focus on group play is sort of scary for me, mostly because I lack any group of friends that frequently play MMOs, I am hopeful if I get in early I can find a Guild that can help with that.
I am fearless when it comes to joining a game. I usually follow its development for a few months, watch for screenies and such, even join the beta. If I haven't managed to get to know people by then, well I figure I messed up. :)
Usually by launch time there are a few people I know, and usually multiple guilds you can apply to. Guilds might even be listed here or barring that, on fan sites.
Just participate, and I am sure everything will fall into place come release time. :)
DanF - FEAR NOT!
Not knowing anyone is not only not a problem, it might actually make your adventure more rewarding. This will actually be the first MMO I've gone into without friends playing in ages (they all "grew up" on modern MMO's and an old school MMO is something they don't want to try)... and you know what? I'm absolutely excited about that.
What you will find is that a game that expects community to play together - has a community that is nicer to and more respectful of each other. Simple reason there, you never know who you might need help from!
That is a primary difference from today's MMO's that focus on making players increasingly self reliant.
So hold your head up, skip the shallow end, and dive right into the deep end of the pool. Nobody there will let you drown. It promises to be a fun and, more importantly, hugely rewarding experience.
DanF said:
I do not want to hi-jack or de-rail this thread, but I would like to second that the Tenants should be fully explained. Mostly, because saying they will be similar to the EQ/VG experience means nothing to me.
Now it is possible I am the only person on this forum that did not play either of those games (I got into MMOs later in life). My only MMO experience comes from (World of Tanks, GW2, TERA, and FF14; like I said I started MMOs later) I did create a Lineage 2 character that I played for 20 or so levels just to see what the older MMOs looked like. However, I am sure Lineage 2 of 2014/2015 does not match how Lineage 2 used to be.
I obviously have picked up this game will be radically different than what I have played to date. Which is sort of the draw as my current MMO experience feels like I am missing something/found lacking. Though, the focus on group play is sort of scary for me, mostly because I lack any group of friends that frequently play MMOs, I am hopeful if I get in early I can find a Guild that can help with that.
Group play can be scary if you do not know anyone! I have played 3 out of the 5 games you listed, and yes it will be quite different from them and I hope you will like that! I will grab a couple of highlights from those two posts and try to explain the difference between eq/vanquardish type play and GW2, Tera & FF14. I loved the last two by the way. The good news is that the tenets actually push for grouping in a way that is more needed and natural, so people are going to want to group with you for some reason.
- A mindset that designed downtime should be a part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds. - the games you are playing right now go quickly from mobs to mobs. In EQ you had to rest between groups of mobs in order to regain mana. So what happened is instead of rushing through a dungeon, you would talk more with your group. I agree this is a more social and welcome this change - it is also one of the tenets that I am most interested in seeing how newer players take to it. IT is definitely a more relaxing pace.
- An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable. The time to level will be a lot longer than what you are used too. When you finally do level, it is more of a feeling of "Oh I finally got this spell!" instead of "Wow, I got these spells a couple of levels ago and I forgot to put them on my hot bar :)" - yeah I have done that.
- A requirement that classes have identities. No single player should be able to do everything on their own. Above I mentioned that people will want to group with you. This tenet I believe alludes to how you will be needed because people will not be able to solo everything. Certain classes are needed in order to have a successful group. You are used to tank, heals, dps but this goes a bit further. Examples - A chanter was especially needed for mana regen and crowd control. A druid or wizard could teleport you. If you played a shaman or bard people would be excited about the extra buffs you could provide.
- An awareness that content is king. Skipped reading the quests? That is something I did in TERA, FFXIV & GW2. In EQ you had to read the quests to figure things out. They were also fewer and more special. Vanguard had more quests, but it had a HUGE amount of content. You weren't led from one zone to the next zone in a linear fashion, rather there were plenty of zones that you could choose from to level in.
So I lightly touched on a few things Danf and I hope it helps. I obviously have not played Pantheon so i do not know exactly what they will be doing, but I get the idea from the games I have played in the past.
Wandidar said:
Raidan has just done a fine job of making my point.
Here's the problem with brevity in description. Take the word "challenging" - as in "Pantheon will be challenging."
Well, to us old school folks, things like meaningful death penalties and meaningful travel are part of the challenge we are looking for. But, if pretty much every MMO forum out there is correct, to the MMO player who likes the theme park model, well, they will argue ardently that penalizing you for death and making you waste time getting from point A to point B have nothing to do with challenge and are only meaningless time sinks.
I do appreciate that you guys will do your best to mitigate and manage conversations here on the forums - but when the active poster population here grows from the 10's to the 100's - well, you can't be everywhere all the time... and you would burn yourself out trying.
The history on forums, even well moderated ones, is that full fledged flame wars, 10's of pages long can sometimes occur before a moderator ever steps foot in the thread.
I think such things are not necessary if people can simply cut and paste a paragraph that gives an absolute definitive cut and dry answer from the developer's stance.
In the interest of not being annoying or a problem myself, I'll now step off the soap box on the issue and let it drop.
EDIT: As to the point of "least resistance, most resistance" - it actually is LEAST resistance. Brad commented specifically on it during the kickstarter... I THINK in one of the video interviews he did. Least resistance doesn't mean "Easy" - it means if you are playing the game in the way it is intended (the least resistant way)
It was never my intention to shoot your suggestion down Wandidar, I hope it did not come across like that. I am always open to idea's and suggestions, I am someone who uses critical thinking and is very open minded, I rely on evidence and facts and if shown a better way of doing something, I will always step back and examine it objectively and I have no problem switching to a better method.
If you guys really want these fleshed out and you believe they are not self explanatory like I believed they were, I would be happy to work with the team and make changes to satisfy the community and better explain the tenets.
Leave it with me and I will speak to Chris and the team about getting this done shortly. :)
Thanks Kilsin.
To be honest, I'm mostly worried about the health of the forums once people start paying attention and more people start showing up. I'm always a forum rat on games I play, and I've just seen so much bad - even sometimes when moderators are trying really hard. The proverbial dam with too many leaks and not enough fingers to plug the holes as it were.
This community is AWESOME so far - and everyone lucky enough to have a green name has been equally AWESOME in how you all interact with us. I don't want to see either of those two things change. :)
Again, thanks, and /bow.
I'm also willing to step up BTW. I know you are all busy and all doing things on your own time. For something like fleshing out the tenets, I'd be happy to take a stab at it and run it by you all for editing, etc...
Wandidar said:
Thanks Kilsin.
To be honest, I'm mostly worried about the health of the forums once people start paying attention and more people start showing up. I'm always a forum rat on games I play, and I've just seen so much bad - even sometimes when moderators are trying really hard. The proverbial dam with too many leaks and not enough fingers to plug the holes as it were.
This community is AWESOME so far - and everyone lucky enough to have a green name has been equally AWESOME in how you all interact with us. I don't want to see either of those two things change. :)
Again, thanks, and /bow.
I'm also willing to step up BTW. I know you are all busy and all doing things on your own time. For something like fleshing out the tenets, I'd be happy to take a stab at it and run it by you all for editing, etc...
You're welcome man :)
I understand that all too well as I have been a big part of many game forums over the years, especially VG and now Pantheon and I have seen some of the things that you are worried about and I agree, it will be a lot of work but as Associate Community Manager (with view to becoming the Community Manager) one of my main roles is Lead Moderator and I have a lot of experience in this area and it is a challenge that I think the team and myself are up to, also having us spread out across different continents also helps us keep a 24 hr watch over the forums in different shifts.
If we get overwhelmed we also have the rest of the team to help, who currently have their heads down working hard on the game but it would only take a quick message from one of the Mods or myself to get extra help and all hands on deck plus going forward when we get an investor and expand, we would look to take on a couple more moderators to help manage the forums I am sure.
But in saying all of that, we have a plan and these forums are going to have some changes very soon to bring them more in line with our vision of being professional Development forums and we have some idea's on dealing with large amounts of new members and have absolute confidence that we will be able to handle whatever is thrown at us now and into the future ;)
I appreciate the offer too, we are always looking at stand out posts and mature consistent behaviour from the community and if anything ever pops up we will know where to look for assistance but for time being, this is something that Brad, Chris, myself and a few other team members will most likely work together on. Thank you for the offer though :)