Ok - so this is inspired by Jason's Real World / Virtual World thread.
Splitting player bases into old school / new school, one of the most dominant arguments against an old school game over the past 10 - 12 years has been: "I loved EQ, but I'm older now, I have a wife and kids, and I simply don't have time for that anymore."
Every pre-launch MMO forum since EQ2 and WoW were a twinkle in gamer's eyes to now has had a virtual FLOOD of those posts. This game had some during the Kickstarter, and will get more when the community at large starts paying attention.
When does that type of argument simply become a great big heaping pile of BS used to try to say something that sounds reasonable rather than the basic truth of the person posting it just not liking old school...
Because here's the deal: I have kids. I'm sure lots of us do. Mine are now both freshmen. One in college, one in high school. I have learned a harsh truth that all parents eventually are forced to learn as their kids seek independence. My kids want me NOT around much more than they want me around. At some point, all that "my family time is taking me away" sort of STOPS being true again as your family matures. At some point, you look around and wonder where the free time is coming from... and you realize that your family as a whole (even your spouse) is accounting for less of your day.
If Pantheon does indeed release in the 2016/2017 window - that will then be a good 15 years or more for someone saying "I used to love that back in EQ, BUT..." And there haven't really been any major titles since then that have demanded more than an hour or two of play time in a play session.
SO - By the time Pantheon launches, will the life expectancy on that particular statement have expired? Will I get excoriated for calling BS on it? I'm mostly thinking ahead, because I know this community will see those types of arguments against certain mechanics - and they will (if history repeats) scream louder than this community for an easement of things they don't like.
So I had a lot more time when I was in high school playing EverQuest, but I'm a lot smarter now, actually have money, lots of changes for me. Could I keep up with a group of people playing 60 hours/week at this point? No, probably not. I think the fallacy in the argument is that the game is only enjoyable if you can be competing for server firsts, best in class, etc. Those days are probably gone for most of us. The game does not need to change to make it so someone who can only play 2 hours a day can be in on server firsts. It's the individual's expectations that need to change from a more hardcore to a casual setting. You'll get to do all the same content, get the same gear, you just won't be there 'first'. I think that's a perfectly fair compromise.
Zircon said:
So I had a lot more time when I was in high school playing EverQuest, but I'm a lot smarter now, actually have money, lots of changes for me. Could I keep up with a group of people playing 60 hours/week at this point? No, probably not. I think the fallacy in the argument is that the game is only enjoyable if you can be competing for server firsts, best in class, etc. Those days are probably gone for most of us. The game does not need to change to make it so someone who can only play 2 hours a day can be in on server firsts. It's the individual's expectations that need to change from a more hardcore to a casual setting. You'll get to do all the same content, get the same gear, you just won't be there 'first'. I think that's a perfectly fair compromise.
I agree with this almost completely, which is why I still hope Pantheon is the group centric game a la original EQ. I will never be the server first again, because I am still very much in the "I don't have time any more" category; however, as Zircon said, the I don't have time any more category doesn't mean I could never play, find groups, obtain gear, or achieve max level after a period of time - it's just that I couldn't be the "best" or the "first" like I was at EQ launch in several categories. I'm competitive, so my expectations have changed from competing with others externally (keeping up with the Joneses mentality in a virtual world gearwise) to competing internally - just setting individual character goals that I would like to achieve and ultimately obtain them (how I'm playing P1999 today).
To be honest, I wouldn't want to be in the server-first mentality again as I did play too many hours, but I still wouldn't sacrifice the gameplay I enjoyed to cater to my new responsibilities.
I like this thread, but for me personally I really don't have the time that I used to, or to phrase it better : My priorities have changed. When I wasn't married I thought nothing of working 8 hours, sleeping 5 hours and gaming a good 8+ hours. Now that I am married, I am not going to neglect my wife for several hours at a time when I can be spending time with her. I would love it if she gamed with me, but I am not holding my breath.
Wandidar said:
Ok - so this is inspired by Jason's Real World / Virtual World thread.
Splitting player bases into old school / new school, one of the most dominant arguments against an old school game over the past 10 - 12 years has been: "I loved EQ, but I'm older now, I have a wife and kids, and I simply don't have time for that anymore."
Every pre-launch MMO forum since EQ2 and WoW were a twinkle in gamer's eyes to now has had a virtual FLOOD of those posts. This game had some during the Kickstarter, and will get more when the community at large starts paying attention.
When does that type of argument simply become a great big heaping pile of BS used to try to say something that sounds reasonable rather than the basic truth of the person posting it just not liking old school...
Because here's the deal: I have kids. I'm sure lots of us do. Mine are now both freshmen. One in college, one in high school. I have learned a harsh truth that all parents eventually are forced to learn as their kids seek independence. My kids want me NOT around much more than they want me around. At some point, all that "my family time is taking me away" sort of STOPS being true again as your family matures. At some point, you look around and wonder where the free time is coming from... and you realize that your family as a whole (even your spouse) is accounting for less of your day.
If Pantheon does indeed release in the 2016/2017 window - that will then be a good 15 years or more for someone saying "I used to love that back in EQ, BUT..." And there haven't really been any major titles since then that have demanded more than an hour or two of play time in a play session.
SO - By the time Pantheon launches, will the life expectancy on that particular statement have expired? Will I get excoriated for calling BS on it? I'm mostly thinking ahead, because I know this community will see those types of arguments against certain mechanics - and they will (if history repeats) scream louder than this community for an easement of things they don't like.
Short form is....this is WHY games have been dumbed down and theme parked.
My thought is this: don't wreck my game to cater to those that "don't have time to play".
You don't have time to play? I DO. Do something else then.
I know I am going to get it in the neck for those statements, but thats pretty much the baseline for me.
CanadinaXegony said:
Short form is....this is WHY games have been dumbed down and theme parked.
My thought is this: don't wreck my game to cater to those that "don't have time to play".
You don't have time to play? I DO. Do something else then.
I know I am going to get it in the neck for those statements, but thats pretty much the baseline for me.
I agree, even if myself I don't have the time to play like I used to, just because of that I don't deserve to have it easier or have rested xp. In EQ when it was new and I had 8 hours or more to play every day I played with a married couple who only had an hour a day to play plus a bit more on the weekends. Even though they had far less time, they kept at it, and in a couple years they had several maxed out characters. The point is, if you don't have tons of time to play, big deal, it's not a race, what's the rush ? The only thing that matters is that you are enjoying your experience and the gaming world you are in, that you love it enough to want to come back again and again. Those who *do* have the time to play shouldn't be "punished" .
Zircon said:
So I had a lot more time when I was in high school playing EverQuest, but I'm a lot smarter now, actually have money, lots of changes for me. Could I keep up with a group of people playing 60 hours/week at this point? No, probably not. I think the fallacy in the argument is that the game is only enjoyable if you can be competing for server firsts, best in class, etc. Those days are probably gone for most of us. The game does not need to change to make it so someone who can only play 2 hours a day can be in on server firsts. It's the individual's expectations that need to change from a more hardcore to a casual setting. You'll get to do all the same content, get the same gear, you just won't be there 'first'. I think that's a perfectly fair compromise.
Well I am a lonnnng time player...started online in 1995. I have played a ton of online games starting with a couple text muds that I quickly got bored with, going to 2-D The Realm (by Sierra Online) and getting a beta disk (which I still have somewhere btw) for that new 3-D game Everquest (seems like yesterday lol), and testing not only EQ but many more in the years after, including Vanguard, Lotro, Warhammer, and Rift.
I have never been in on a server first. And its just not something that drives my raison d'etre. There are usually far more interesting things to do (for me that is) than being cooped up in dungeons constantly and listening to people bicker over the "phat lewts" been there done that...don't want some thanks. :P
It is all about expectations, bragging rights...status and all that. THAT is not why or how I play.
I play to have fun, explore, get to know people, be sociable, and possibly some small achievements along the way. I like to craft, I like to hoard for my guild (the guild bank is usually overflowing with me around lol) And I just like to experience the whole thing, the game world. Last but not least, I am retired and I HAVE THE TIME. :P
I like the commentary on changing your personal expectations. It may be the "missing link" perspective in all of those sorts of threads over the years. Because historically there has mostly been a hard line drawn in the sand - with nobody (myself included to be honest) speaking the reasoned middle ground you are presenting.
Typically everyone takes a side and defends their turf.
Perhaps this reasoned stance will be enough of a softening agent this time, with this game, to take the edge off of such conversations.
Wandidar said:
I like the commentary on changing your personal expectations. It may be the "missing link" perspective in all of those sorts of threads over the years. Because historically there has mostly been a hard line drawn in the sand - with nobody (myself included to be honest) speaking the reasoned middle ground you are presenting.
Typically everyone takes a side and defends their turf.
Perhaps this reasoned stance will be enough of a softening agent this time, with this game, to take the edge off of such conversations.
I've done a lot of thinking on the subject over the years. The casual misconception, imho, has a lot to do with modern games which is all most people have exposure to. Modern games typically don't start until you're max level. In WoW you will replace your entire set of armor every hour as you level, devaluing any sense of achievement or satisfaction you get from the items as you blast through levels. Not only items, but all zones, all levels in general lose all their meaning. People fell for the illusion that if games let you level faster, you would have more 'fun' but it hasn't proven to be the case, at least for me. Modern games have given "leveling" a horrible image, the roots of leveling were from the D&D days where you were adventuring with a group of people, and you got some reward out of it. Not to sound like a roleplayer (I'm not), but every time you log in it's supposed to feel like a new adventure, and not feel laborious. The only fun at max level precedent modern games have set needs to be reversed.
Zircon said:
Wandidar said:
I like the commentary on changing your personal expectations. It may be the "missing link" perspective in all of those sorts of threads over the years. Because historically there has mostly been a hard line drawn in the sand - with nobody (myself included to be honest) speaking the reasoned middle ground you are presenting.
Typically everyone takes a side and defends their turf.
Perhaps this reasoned stance will be enough of a softening agent this time, with this game, to take the edge off of such conversations.
I've done a lot of thinking on the subject over the years. The casual misconception, imho, has a lot to do with modern games which is all most people have exposure to. Modern games typically don't start until you're max level. In WoW you will replace your entire set of armor every hour as you level, devaluing any sense of achievement or satisfaction you get from the items as you blast through levels. Not only items, but all zones, all levels in general lose all their meaning. People fell for the illusion that if games let you level faster, you would have more 'fun' but it hasn't proven to be the case, at least for me. Modern games have given "leveling" a horrible image, the roots of leveling were from the D&D days where you were adventuring with a group of people, and you got some reward out of it. Not to sound like a roleplayer (I'm not), but every time you log in it's supposed to feel like a new adventure, and not feel laborious. The only fun at max level precedent modern games have set needs to be reversed.
I get invites to come back to Wow all the time..promising me a fully capped character.
Little do they know they are talking to an old school gamer, who likes the journey and the challenges of building her own character.
Hence...definitely barking up the wrong tree, and they will never ever see me ingame. What a turn-off!
Sorry for my brevity in advance -- this is a worthy discussion and there's not really a simple answer, but:
I do believe we can do things where you and your group can proceed through, say, a dungeon, and provide areas where you can safely log out, and then log in and continue onward the next play session. In other words, we realize that people are older, have spouses, kids, jobs, etc. Having to have long play sessions ala EQ 1 I don't believe is necessary. I believe we can recognize and accommodate the player who requires shorter play sessions WITHOUT wimping out the game.
Thoughts?
On a more general topic, however, MMOs, and Pantheon specifically, is about 1. Time Invested and 2. Using skills and tactics effectively. #1 is just part of MMOs. So the person who can in general play more often -- put more hours in -- is going to generally advance more quickly. Some people don't like that, but I not only think it's inescapable, but OK. We will also probably have the option (which I'm pretty sure made it into VG) where you can create a Fellowship and voluntarily donate some of your earned exp to a buddy. That way your friend who can't play as often as you can can keep up, but at your cost -- no free lunch.
Aradune said:
Sorry for my brevity in advance -- this is a worthy discussion and there's not really a simple answer, but:
I do believe we can do things where you and your group can proceed through, say, a dungeon, and provide areas where you can safely log out, and then log in and continue onward the next play session. In other words, we realize that people are older, have spouses, kids, jobs, etc. Having to have long play sessions ala EQ 1 I don't believe is necessary. I believe we can recognize and accommodate the player who requires shorter play sessions WITHOUT wimping out the game.
I am fine with that, having more or less safe areas in every dungeon, almost like checkpoints, where a person can log out without fear of getting insta killed the second they log in the next day . I am also fine with fellowships and mentoring. The only stuff I am against is stuff like rested xp. I don't think people with less time should be straight out given handouts to help them compete with people who actually do have time to play a lot. At least with fellowships the person with more time on there hands is actually more-or-less donating their own time for your benefit . I think people (including myself) don't want the game to be overly easy where even casual gamers max out their level in just a couple weeks. I think people want being high level to "mean something" .
Aradune said:
Sorry for my brevity in advance -- this is a worthy discussion and there's not really a simple answer, but:
I do believe we can do things where you and your group can proceed through, say, a dungeon, and provide areas where you can safely log out, and then log in and continue onward the next play session. In other words, we realize that people are older, have spouses, kids, jobs, etc. Having to have long play sessions ala EQ 1 I don't believe is necessary. I believe we can recognize and accommodate the player who requires shorter play sessions WITHOUT wimping out the game.
Thoughts?
On a more general topic, however, MMOs, and Pantheon specifically, is about 1. Time Invested and 2. Using skills and tactics effectively. #1 is just part of MMOs. So the person who can in general play more often -- put more hours in -- is going to generally advance more quickly. Some people don't like that, but I not only think it's inescapable, but OK. We will also probably have the option (which I'm pretty sure made it into VG) where you can create a Fellowship and voluntarily donate some of your earned exp to a buddy. That way your friend who can't play as often as you can can keep up, but at your cost -- no free lunch.
I tend to agree on all points and again, it is a personal thing but at least having the option to camp during a dungeon run will allow a lot more people to attempt that dungeon and experience it's atmosphere and challenges while not affecting anyone else's gameplay and on the other side completely, if a guild wanted to organise a full dungeon run and allocate the time to do it 1-2 times a week as a guild event, they could do that too without being hindered by a mechanic slowing them down, so it works well for everyone.
We touched on this in another thread but there will always be someone faster, stronger, better, more skilled, have more time to invest and ultimately get to the top faster, that is life and trying to change that would be foolish as it would ruin someone elses gameplay. People can play at their own pace and not be affected by people who like to play at a faster pace, let them sit at the top twiddling their thumbs while you continue to enjoy the journey. Other peoples success shouldn't be your failure and we shouldn't try to slow someone else down because their play style doesn't suit our own. Let everyone play the game the way they like best and enjoy your own time in the game world would be my advice to anyone against players who rush.
VG had the Brotherhood system which worked very well in keeping friends, family and guilds together. It allowed someone to gain exp at a diminished rate while offline if someone in the brotherhood was earning exp, it would be split between however many were in the Brotherhood, with the max being 6. So if I had my character and 5 friends in a Brotherhood together, if they were all offline and I was questing in a group, I would level 6 times slower than someone that I am grouped with on a single player not in a Brotherhood because every kill, every quest turn in gets shared equally with 5 other offline players. So instead of earning 120 exp for a kill, I only earn 20 exp and the other 100 exp goes to the brotherhood exp pool and gets shared equally with the 5 offline members giving them all 20 exp each. If they are all logged in, they gain the full exp for the kill.
The trade off was that we also got an ability to toggle on/off that allowed us to stop gaining experience completely, this allowed the other side of the fence to slow themselves right down to enjoy the journey at an even slower pace or to continue to play without out leveling their friends, family or guildies etc. So both sides had a mechanic to stay connected and playing with loved ones, friends guildies etc and no one suffers from the other person's usage of these mechanics. I liked having these options a lot.
Some people argue against a Brotherhood system and claim it's power leveling to which I reply, the level of experience is so slow it is "time wise" basically like leveling 6 individual characters, you will get 6 max leveled character but at 6 times as long as levelling 1 character and it would only serve as a convenience to keep friends, families and guild members together, the pros far outweigh the cons and someone using this system will not impact on your gameplay at all.
Note: When I say you/your it's not actually directed a Brad, it is speaking generally to one side or the other depending what your position is on the subject, just for clarification ;)
Aradune said:
Sorry for my brevity in advance -- this is a worthy discussion and there's not really a simple answer, but:
I do believe we can do things where you and your group can proceed through, say, a dungeon, and provide areas where you can safely log out, and then log in and continue onward the next play session. In other words, we realize that people are older, have spouses, kids, jobs, etc. Having to have long play sessions ala EQ 1 I don't believe is necessary. I believe we can recognize and accommodate the player who requires shorter play sessions WITHOUT wimping out the game.
Thoughts?
On a more general topic, however, MMOs, and Pantheon specifically, is about 1. Time Invested and 2. Using skills and tactics effectively. #1 is just part of MMOs. So the person who can in general play more often -- put more hours in -- is going to generally advance more quickly. Some people don't like that, but I not only think it's inescapable, but OK. We will also probably have the option (which I'm pretty sure made it into VG) where you can create a Fellowship and voluntarily donate some of your earned exp to a buddy. That way your friend who can't play as often as you can can keep up, but at your cost -- no free lunch.
The vibe im getting from you Brad is that dungeons will be crawls and not camps....you start at the entrance and then work your way to the exit (this is pretty much how they did dungeons in EQ2). Is this your plan for dungeons? will there not be camps? Dungeons like KC or Seb where you get a "camp" then just spend time hunting that area? I really really hope there is some plan for this, I know you personally have stated you dont like camps but ALOT of us do...it was a great way to build a community and to really get to know your group mates and make friends. I have no problem with the "brotherhood" or fellowship thing, beats mentoring imho as most mentoring systems are broken and just lead to Uber toons clearing out whole dungeons in one pull
Sevens - I agree. I LOVE dungeon camps. Dungeon camps are an opportunity to not press buttons constantly. Which means you have a little more time to focus on nothing more than enjoying the time spent with the people you are there with.
One of my favorite stories about camping... A guild mate needed a drop from some mob... I don't even remember which mob it was or which dungeon it was in. The respawn time was a couple minutes - so we would kill, sit, kill, sit, kill, sit. We were doing this for a guildie.
To pass the time, on a whim, I started a game of "who's hotter" in group chat. I began the game with two names of famous people who were truly hot - but - after several rounds, the whole thing devolved into comparisons like "Who's hotter, Mrs. Roper or Aunt Clara" (look 'em up if you don't get the reference) - and it was a BLAST. All of us there, for several days afterward referenced the event in guild chat with nobody admitting who actually started devolving the compares - and making fun of each other for some of the more ludicrous ones.
It was a camp that was more sit than kill... and one of the most memorable evenings for me in EQ, because it just got SOOOO incredibly silly.
That doesn't mean all dungeons need to be camps - but it would be nice for he game to have crawls AND camps.
Wandidar said:
Sevens - I agree. I LOVE dungeon camps. Dungeon camps are an opportunity to not press buttons constantly. Which means you have a little more time to focus on nothing more than enjoying the time spent with the people you are there with.
One of my favorite stories about camping... A guild mate needed a drop from some mob... I don't even remember which mob it was or which dungeon it was in. The respawn time was a couple minutes - so we would kill, sit, kill, sit, kill, sit. We were doing this for a guildie.
To pass the time, on a whim, I started a game of "who's hotter" in group chat. I began the game with two names of famous people who were truly hot - but - after several rounds, the whole thing devolved into comparisons like "Who's hotter, Mrs. Roper or Aunt Clara" (look 'em up if you don't get the reference) - and it was a BLAST. All of us there, for several days afterward referenced the event in guild chat with nobody admitting who actually started devolving the compares - and making fun of each other for some of the more ludicrous ones.
It was a camp that was more sit than kill... and one of the most memorable evenings for me in EQ, because it just got SOOOO incredibly silly.
That doesn't mean all dungeons need to be camps - but it would be nice for he game to have crawls AND camps.
Agreed 100% just I am getting the vibe that the dungeons will be crawls. And one thing I must stress is that when Im talking about "camps" I dont mean like camping a certain mob for a certain drop but just grabbing the Left Courtyard in Karnors Castle and just spending the day there.
P.S Mrs Roper was much hotter...she was a horny old coot where as Aunt Clara was to spacey
By the way - I've mentioned these a few times now, so I'm going to link a couple so folks can see what I mean... because I think these kinds of conversations can be resolved before they begin - or at least framed before they get out of control by the devs using this sort of vehicle. Specifically, the "Foundational Principles" section of the Camelot Unchained website.
I feel OK posting these because Camelot Unchained is not really competing for the same player base. Pantheon, I think, is aiming toward people who like an old school PvE centric MMO. Camelot Unchained is aiming at folks who like old school PvP - to the near or total exclusion of PvE.
http://camelotunchained.com/v2/foundational-principle-1-be-willing-to-take-risks-even-if-fortune-doesnt-always-favor-the-bold/
http://camelotunchained.com/v2/foundational-principle-3/ ; - This one seems particularly salient to this conversation by the way
http://camelotunchained.com/v2/foundational-principle-5-gold-sellers-still-suck/ - Relevant to another active thread here
Overall they have 15 of these currently posted covering all sorts of topics - and I think (as said above) such clear, concise statements on some pretty huge topics serves (for them) to focus conversation. It allows prospective players to start with what the dev SPECIFICALLY said and move forward - rather than take sides on some of these discussions and wage forum war to protect turf.
this is a new world, its a new day and age, most eq players will admit they would NOT go back and play EQ in this day and age, EQ was work, if you really want an idea of what would be the perfect MMO then think of it this way....
the main series of single player games that has a really large following in our particular area of interest is Elder Scrolls, almost every Elder Scrolls player out there says they would love a true Elder Scrolls Online game, not the garbage that Zenimax put out, when Zenimax created Elder Scrolls Online with Matt Firor at the helm Matt decided he was going to recreate once again (against me and many other peoples opinions) another RVR pvp game and use the Elder Scrolls IP to attract the players, many people bought into this idea and tried the idea thinking it was an Elder Scrolls game, but almost all of them figured out what was going on and bailed really quick, over half of them left before their free month was even up.
out of all the cash shops out there the one cash shop system that almost everyone agrees is really fair, high quality and makes a steady profit, is the cash shop from SWTOR, SWTOR has a unique system in that it allows you to buy an outfit for example for 5 dollars and add it to your collection and then you can pay 1 dollar more and unlock that same outfit for the entire account, you can download unlimited copies of this outfit but they are bound to your account so you cant overinflate the economy by selling them.
or whatever it is and then sell it in game for the free to play players to buy for in game gold or whatever, and then use that to get subscription status, its a pretty good system because it allows the freeloaders to feel they are getting something for nothing but in reality someone STILL paid for that original krono to begin with
they allow players to buy different armor sets covering a multitude of styles and then add mods to the armor to develop them in their preferred style, for example it is actually feasible to wear a mage style outfit as a tank just put tank mods into the armor, while it is also possible to dress your mage in plate armor making you feel like your a battlemage but your wearing mage stats in the outfit
Personally I like a crafting style game that allows me to develop my craft from an apprentice level skill to a grandmaster skill and then once I am a Grandmaster allow me to create exceptional quality items and affix my makers mark to the items I craft giving me the recognition of being a grandmaster crafter, its always nice to recognize a piece of armor I made being worn by someone else, what would also be really nice is if we had the ability to unlock high quality unique adaptive armor recipes when we reach the grandmaster level that would give an incentive to reach that level
I feel that removing levels and stuff from game will be beneficial, it would be a lot more interesting to have levels of skill like in Skyrim where you start out as a apprentice mage for example and then level up your magery skills through the ranks until reaching grandmaster levels much like the crafting level system
this is a new world, its a new day and age, most eq players will admit they would NOT go back and play EQ in this day and age, EQ was work, if you really want an idea of what would be the perfect MMO then think of it this way....
I would 10000% go back to EQ1 as it was at launch, more so than playing Rift, or Guild Wars 2, or ESO or WoW or EQ2 or SWTOR or any other online single player game. I want that "work" I want the game to kick my ass. I want to HAVE to rely on others to succeed. Gaming is my hobby...I want it to challenge me, to tax me....to push me to be a better player.
Yeah - it's about what a couple folks stated earlier in the thread - it's not that the game has to be less than EQ, it's realizing that you don't have to be at the top of Pantheon faster than anyone else.
It's about slowing down and enjoying the game.
That is actually what I most loved about EQ. I actually play quite a bit more now than I did when I played EQ. You see, while many folks post the "I'm not a kid anymore / don't have time for it anymore" posts now - When I was playing EQ was when my career was really getting going AND when I was having my kids. My oldest is 18 and a freshman in college. My youngest is 14 and a freshman in high school. I was playing EQ while working a ton of hours and while having a toddler and a newborn in the house.
I played about 3 hours a night after my wife was asleep and after the kids were put to bed for the night.
Playing that much a night (Most nights, with more some nights or on weekends) - I NEVER made it to the uber top end... but you know what? I did make it to "better than most"
I had friends in the uber, top end guilds. They burnt out - they spent time trying to hide from the top. I'd get tells: "Hey Wand, this is so and so, I just want to group tonight... don't let anyone know it's me - my guild is raiding and I don't want to."
But me - somewhere above the middle, below the top me... I was proud to be better than average - maybe "semi-uber" - while still having stuff in front of me to work for. I NEVER ran out of stuff in EQ. That's really the experience I want in Pantheon. Not feeling like I am (or that the game will even let me) rush through everything. Enjoying what is there... virtually "living" in the world during the hours I spend with the game.
So I agree entirely with Sevens - give me a true Brad McQuaid, spiritual successor to EQ - with all that such a game entails... and I will be happy.
you have to remember though running a game nowadays costs a LOT more money than it did back in 1999, in 1999 200k players could fund and maintain a game, EQ in its heyday never reached 500k subscribers if I remember correctly, and nowadays with the cost of running a game, that just isnt a large enough playerbase really, but again its up to Pantheon what size playerbase they consider large enough for the game to actually be considered a success in their book. My point is that if the numbers they are looking for are Larger than 500k players then some sort of compromise is going to have to be made in order to attract a larger playerbase. back in 1999 we only had a few MMORPGS to choose from, nowadays there are thousands, the market is literally saturatated, so if Pantheon is to step up, its gonna have to be special.