StoneFish said: Yup. The spoiled child has been given the cookie, and soon it will repeat the behavior demanding another. It will then ask to be thanked for stopping it's cry. The development time has been increased and further stress placed upon the builders.Lol! Ok your version is much more succinct.
The thing I didn’t like about the whole 247 thing and how sketchy it all was, was that having such a loop doesn’t give you proper statistics. Pantheon has been touted as a sandbox style game like EQ was where people make their own fun and adventure with very little guidance and quests to do; that’s what players are supposed to be testing as well as mechanics. To me, having testers in there 24/7 would be the perfect opportunity to give me player retention stats and replay ability stats that I can use going forward and improve on. The fact that testers consumed content and then left because it wasn’t engaging enough tells me two things:
1. The testers see themselves as more of a player with very early access and less as a tester.
2. The testers got bored really quick of playing the same thing over and over again and therefore stopped testing.
To make 247 and add extraction to it to make it more appealing to get stats does not bode well for me. Not only that having to add more to the game to keep even the testers engaged means you really need to take a step back and figure out how to keep people engaged, because if you can’t keep even your testers engaged with the EQ style old sandbox-make-your-own-fun with-little-quests type of game…then you have a bigger problem than you might realize. 247 isn’t doing anything but skewing the numbers of just how many people are going to stay and play this game in the future, at least that’s how I viewed it. If you want to just test the mechanics out and see if there are bugs in it, then it should be done in the same setting that the MMORPG is going to have, not a separate loop with extraction. That’s the only way you are going to find bugs and issues relative to the MMORPG and not a different loop that won’t be implemented. Also, again, if the testers are consuming too much too fast and are even bored with coming back to do the same things…then you really need to consider how you are setting this game up. For me, yes I didn’t like 247 for all the same reasons everyone else was saying here, but what bothered me the most was the reasons they were doing it and how they needed this to keep testers engaged and active to get stats. You shouldn’t need to keep testers engaged, they are there for testing, and if you can’t keep them there testing, then that tells me that the game is not going to have the player retention they were hoping to have in the future.
lotuss79 said:
Chenzeme, if you want an honest response to the concerns you raised it goes something like this.
They can still slow the way players consume content with the mmo format.
1: Slow down xp to 1/2 or 1/4 the standard rate. (most of their PA tests had 2x xp rates, they were intentionally hustling players though the content)
2: Do regular server wipes that incentivize testers to start over by testing different classes.
3: Project Farethale was a complete vertical slice of the game with content to lvl 50. Open up more of the game world to testing.
I commented on this back in the beginning of the Pre-Alpha testing, but the Pre-Alpha "testers" aren't actual testers, and solely relying on them to test is a very poor use of time. I say this from the perspective of formerly being a professional tester for Sony. These pledgers "PAID" to play around with a game under development... they aren't employees on a payroll with objectives, goals and deadlines. What I said (repeatedly) years ago, was something akin to "I'm not going to "pay" VR to "work" for them." I would however "pay to play" and allow them to collect data - but in that scenario, your data is not going to be all encompassing, and will in fact miss a lot of data points.
I actually thought that 247 was a great idea to get more data points without hiring actual testers... their issue was announcing it as 247 instead of announcing it as instanced content testing. They could've targeted the "instanced testing" by having people achieve specific goals that were actually designed to test certain mechanics over and over again... like you do in actual game testing (replaying the same XYZ scenario X number of times with specific variables).
lotuss79 said: They can still slow the way players consume content with the mmo format. 1: Slow down xp to 1/2 or 1/4 the standard rate. (most of their PA tests had 2x xp rates, they were intentionally hustling players though the content) 2: Do regular server wipes that incentivize testers to start over by testing different classes. They do not need to provide a finished gameplay experience, that's what release is for. They can rightly expect their testers in an Alpha phase to experience server wipes and not just keep 'advancing' forever as in a finished game.
I think both of these points are great and valid strategies. Point number 1, I have suggested in other posts.
Some have raised concerns about testers not testing what VR wants tested. VR just needs to find a way to incentivize testing activities. One example could be slowing XP down 10X and then if testers do X, Y, and Z activities they would get a 2X XP bonus for those activities. Another example, if you complete X amount of testing activities over a period of X time, you get a 20 slot bag for your first character on Live.
chenzeme said:
Lotuss79, I only ever want an honest response and I think your points 1 & 2 are very valid. Point 3 though would just disperse the players even more so you would still get a problem with collecting stats for heavily populations. But yup a complete zone from 1 to 50 would be ideal from a player tester point of view.
"Testers" should not be "leveling" 1-50. That's not testing, that's grinding. Asking players to level 1-50 in an incomplete game (no quests/missions/objectives) will only produce grinding, which is awful for data point collection on testing.
Testers should be logging in with assigned race/class at very specific levels with specific gear in very specific areas to "test". Allowing "players" to make random decisions and hoping for "test" results is a waste of everyone's time. The 247 model would've been good for this as long as people knew it was only for testing purposes.
Darch said:"Testers" should not be "leveling" 1-50. That's not testing, that's grinding. Asking players to level 1-50 in an incomplete game (no quests/missions/objectives) will only produce grinding, which is awful for data point collection on testing.
Testers should be logging in with assigned race/class at very specific levels with specific gear in very specific areas to "test". Allowing "players" to make random decisions and hoping for "test" results is a waste of everyone's time. The 247 model would've been good for this as long as people knew it was only for testing purposes.
I think the problem is the income model VR has currently. A lot of people paid for Alpha and Pre-Alpha access to be able to play the game. Some/many are not paying $X to work for VR and that is fine. Most Alpha and Beta testers either get paid by the company or test for free.
The solution seems to be to have 2 servers. One server for all the people that paid to play and let them play however they want. You get whatever data you can from that. The second server for actual testers. They don't pay for this access and as a result you can control what they are testing.
Darch said:"Testers" should not be "leveling" 1-50. That's not testing, that's grinding. Asking players to level 1-50 in an incomplete game (no quests/missions/objectives) will only produce grinding, which is awful for data point collection on testing.
Testers should be logging in with assigned race/class at very specific levels with specific gear in very specific areas to "test". ...
IMO:
Correct. Testers should be testing, not playing, especially in the made-up status of pre-alpha.
If more than 50% of the game is subject to change? Focused tests are the only thing that CAN provide value, and even then? That value is brief and temporally limited, as in, it ages quickly, as soon as you make adjustments to the systems you tested.
You'll also note that M&M had a stress test on Nov 11th, 2023. Not a balance test. Not a progression test. A stress test. They were not solely & explicitly testing XP rates, or combat balance, class balance, equipment balance, economic balance, or any of that, which will come along MUCH later in the dev cycle. They were testing how many concurrent client connections the server could tolerate. That those players were in the noob yard killing bats and rats was coincidental, and any data gathered on anything other than the focus of the test was a bonus, not a stated up-front goal within the scope of the test.
Why does this matter? Becauase VR can do the exact same thing. If you want to see if your server can handle 3000, 5000, or 10000 concurrent connections? Have a public stress test.
If the goal is something else? Then state that publicly. For example: From Dec 4th to 8th, during business hours, we will be testing this zone, with these races and these classes, for progression. Please login during this time and consume x content, (in whatever game loop you want to test).
These are all solved problems, it merely requires the desire to accomplisht the goal, and implementation.
There was never any need to build GoR/247 to acquire testing data. None. All that was required was a public testing schedule.
lotuss79 said: But if you want to see where the childishness is coming from right now, look absolutely no further than the ride or die VR defenders who are taking the opportunity to call people who disagree with them "dbags". Read DarkAkuma's post. That's a temper tantrum. Its pure angry hate. Everyone who has been 100% wrong on all these issues (including VR themselves), once proven wrong just respond with snark, anger and hate, then point the finger at others. True story
Wow... If you took away that from my comment in that other thread... You are the saddest person I have ever seen.
1. Inferring that I am childish. Ha! This is coming from a person who is literally using the childish tactic of trying to deflect things back at me, as I will further point out.
2. I am clearly not a "ride or die VR defender". I do have, and have expressed issues with Pantheon and 247. I have even expressed my understanding and agreement on some of the issues with the graphics style change that people have. I just don't do it in everything post... so because of that, you pretend I am a shill? lol
3. I did not "call people who disagree with me dbags" as you claim. You are purposefully trying to reverse that on me, like a child yourself. I very specifically called people who were insulting other people on that thread, purely for disagreeing with them, dbags. I.E. all the complainers that get toxic against anyone who simply does not hate the art change. Calling them delusional, on copium, liars, strawmaning them, etc. You can disagree with 247, the art change, or whatever... all you want! That is fine! I get that, and I support your right to have a voice and opinion. But it's people like you who start slinging such insults at others for others doing so, that brings out the insults from me.
4. That was not even remotely a temper tantrum. Haha! Again, you seem to be trying to use the childish tactic of taking things I have said about others like you, and saying "Nuh uhh! You're ___!". The only tantrums I have seen have been from people complaining about these changes, being quick to insult everyone, posting tons of comments as if to pretend there are more voices for their opinion than there are (tying to be as loud as possible), and crying that the end is nigh while saying "If you don't change this back, im leaving!".
5. And yet again... calling it "pure angry hate" is an absurd attempt at reflecting. Though while I never previously said the complainers were "pure angry and hate filled", the fact that you are trying to deflect it as if I did... suggests that you are. In fact, as mentioned at the end of that comment, the only reason I posted the comment at all was to show support for those who were getting attacked and ganged up on for having views in contrast to the complainers.
If you incorrectly took all that away from my comment(s), that says more about you. You out yourself as one of the toxic non-constructive complainers I was trying to point out. Good job!
And since you have trouble misplacing the emotions behind words on the internet... Anything I have said in this post has zero "anger" or "hate". Just pity and humor. I find this sad, and hilarious!
Wow! Thanks for the laugh! I've been avoiding posts here lately due to the toxicity. So its great to see something positive come out of such peoples posts! =)
chenzeme said: I think people's perception of pre-alpha, alpha and beta is just off the mark. These have never been advertised as early access. They are totally different. There is no way pre-alpha or alpha would be close to a complete game, ever. Only in beta should you expect every system to be in place and most of the content. Any other expectation is just deluding yourself. Regardless whether the thought is that you are not testers, in reality you are. And people need to realise this. It is unrealistic to expect more from a pre-alpha status (regardless of length of development). Until we move to beta, we are testers and should expect to be.
Not really, they stated early on that they weren't going with the commonly used definitions of things like alpha and beta; it's the whole reason why we have pre-alphas. I'll see where I can find where they said it and link it, but I know for a fact that it was something people argued about WAY back at the beginning of this whole thing.
chenzeme said:
Nope. The whole point is, it is in test phase. We are testers. VR tries stuff out. We feedback, they change it or keep it. We are not in a early release play mode.
Prevenge said:
chenzeme said:
Nope. The whole point is, it is in test phase. We are testers. VR tries stuff out. We feedback, they change it or keep it. We are not in a early release play mode.
It's hard to blame people though, in a world where every MMORPG they've played in the last 10 years WAS pay to play however you want, in the alpha.
I liked the comment they made during the Q&A that they'd be stepping in more often to request focused testing from players. Despite the fact that a lot of people are just logging in to play the game, I think a lot of people will step up and test what they are asked to test, if VR is going to dole out tasks on a regular basis.