If the news letter is anything more than a bunch of bullet points giving little more than we know now, I will be amazed. Thankful, but amazed.
One thing I would like to discuss is the apparent time saving this is supposed to provide for pantheon.
Well, given that there is no real out put from VR to the community due now until next year sometime, that impliies that they will be developing 247 throughout that time. Say 4 to 6 months. Then they have to take the bits that are useful to pantheon from the 247 and weave them into the db and client. We are talking another 2 to 4 months. Then get ready for alpha. Oh we are now headed towards the end of 2024, early 25. At the earliest. And I think I am being generous.
Some saving there!
Again, I invite VR to tell me where I am wrong.
Notice that none of the 247 has been streamed...
Ranarius "I disagree with this statement. I do wish there was no NDA so I could explain why :( The point is that you should not have to explain anything, VR should have gotten waaaaay out in front of this (insert anything you wish here.). But, here we all are chatting pleasantly together, so there is that.
If they want to further milk existing pledgers to play their own little side project of a game mode no one asked for I'll be not having a piece of it. What a **** show this is turning into. I just don't believe anything that is coming out of VRs mouth lately.
They could have gone in such a different direction with all of this. Talk to their pledgers honestly about money. Make tough decisions about winding back extra features people dont care much about until later, down the track get the game opened up to people in bare bones format and look to monetize that way.
Maybe...I guess just maybe the MMO version of the game is actually really ****, maybe people who test it don't really want to play it... So they know they could never release it without sinking stupid amounts of money into it. And maybe now they are going to try to phase it out slowly this way whole distracting with whatever this mode is. In their own words people don't hang around to test it
Yeah,... before we get to see what this actually is and does, ill reserve judgement. Guesswork ranges from "not a bad idea!" all the way to "this will bury Pantheon and I want my money back!" for me. So just gonna comment on the one thing we DO know: How this is handled and communicated.
Not happy with it to be short and simple here. The moment a leak puts a negative narrative, you should have either INSTANTLY reacted and tossed the truth out (when the truth is better than the leak suggests obviously!). Since you are planning to talk about it in a week anyway, this would have only pushed that forward by two weeks by the point of the leak.
The other possibility (my preferred one, actually) would have been to just not talk about it at all (like you started out) and just slap the broader community with facts and a showcase of the wonderful progress all at once, to shut them up. That way, you would have gotten all the attention from negative press turned into positive press. People that would not have looked for something at all, would be on board due to the negative press. Kind of abusing the system here, but you know it works.
Of corse both versions only work, if there is actually something positive behind all this and not just something the team talks themselves into believing it is a good thing. We have all done that for projects we work on. So no judgement for that. Since neither of the obvious good PR moves (and I will be frank again: I double checked this with a multi million / year PR department, as it just so happens to be two rooms away from me) have been done,... i really hope it was just an oversight and not due to actually just having nothing good to show.
Anyway. One week it is. Good luck.
Ranarius said:"The mini-game called 247 above is not Pantheon. It is not intended to be Pantheon. It will never become Pantheon. It is not intended to ever become Pantheon."
I disagree with this statement. I do wish there was no NDA so I could explain why :(
How long does VR allow certain things clouded under the NDA that are in the public sphere to poison the perception of the non pre alpha pledgers. It is being portrayed in an awful light by their own statements. Jesus VR if there is something to tell that salvages what a mess this looks like to general punters now is the time to flick the switch and tell it.
To be fair they stated on Discord, that 247 is a gameplay loop WITHIN Pantheon to have faster testing turnaround. So not a different game at all. Just an "encapsulated" mode within Pantheon itself or something. Maybe some form of testing tool that got upgraded to be made available to a broader audience, without the possibilities that testing mode would give a real developer to destroy the game or something.
That is kind of my biggest hope with what we know so far. A repurposed testing tool that got improved to both be more polished, so public audiences can use it and more restricted,... so public audiences can use it.
Edit: Changed my mind, just going to lay it out clearly.
You've lied to us at least twice, firstly regarding funding and second about development schedule. You've strung us along for ten years, lost people to the sands of time under this guise only to now change methodology because you mismanaged yourselves and actively attempted to belittle us for dissenting at any point. Your actions are disgraceful. I'd call you shameful but to do what you've done requires the type of personalities that lack the ability to empathize with other humans in that capacity. Why is the public so distrustful of game companies nowadays? Look in the mirror.
Honestly it's pretty damn terrifying that a monetizable Pantheon survival game gets leaked, shortly after they make the game look like Fortnite......lmao. Furthermore, wasting development time at this stage of the game, seems unthinkable. I'm already starting to regret disagreeing with a change of leadership in the other thread.
Rattenmann: To be fair they stated on Discord, that 247 is a gameplay loop WITHIN Pantheon to have faster testing turnaround. So not a different game at all. Just an "encapsulated" mode within Pantheon itself or something.
To make 247 marketable, there is no way that they can develop this within a testing loop. Yeah, there will be cross over code, but there will also be a lot of independent development that has nothing to do with Pantheon in there too. So, the MMO RPG will be impacted.
The fact is, Pantheon has already been impacted by the fact they are changing just about every asset for this mini game and suspending any further direct development. This has been going on for at least a couple of months now and will not start again for at least a few more months. No, Pantheon is impacted already and will be impacted further. Basically, until they are done with 247 and have integrated the crossover code, Pantheon is impacted.
I used to be in camp; “VR know what’s best for Pantheon” and “It makes sense to do this change” and “VR have been open about everything, so we should just let them get on with getting on”. But this? This is something else entirely. From the comms shut down, this has been badly handled. It is a slap in the face for people who have waited many years. It is underhanded. I could go on (and have done, I know).
To be fair? To be fair, VR stated that the changes were to quicken delivery of Pantheon and inferred that the 24 7 testing was for Pantheon (YES, they didn’t specify, but that’s what everyone (except VR) thought). To be fair, VR didn’t say anything about this mini game until it was forced on them, so how could we think anything else? To be fair, VR have not been fair.
I was hoping that Alpha was nearing, maybe by early next year. This will push that back until the following year, at least (yup, I cannot see Pantheon in Alpha until 2025!). This saddens me, hugely.
One thing I will give VR credit for; they have allowed us to vent without interference (above the basic behave yourself rule). For that, kudos and thank you. For the way you have handled this? Not so much!
chenzeme said:To be fair? To be fair, VR stated that the changes were to quicken delivery of Pantheon and inferred that the 24 7 testing was for Pantheon (YES, they didn’t specify, but that’s what everyone (except VR) thought). To be fair, VR didn’t say anything about this mini game until it was forced on them, so how could we think anything else? To be fair, VR have not been fair.
Another note about VR stating things will accellerate development. VR has stated many changes were to shorten the development of Pantheon. But since they don't share their projections of how long development will take we have no way of holding them to this promise.
Ruinar said:chenzeme said:To be fair? To be fair, VR stated that the changes were to quicken delivery of Pantheon and inferred that the 24 7 testing was for Pantheon (YES, they didn’t specify, but that’s what everyone (except VR) thought). To be fair, VR didn’t say anything about this mini game until it was forced on them, so how could we think anything else? To be fair, VR have not been fair.
Another note about VR stating things will accellerate development. VR has stated many changes were to shorten the development of Pantheon. But since they don't share their projections of how long development will take we have no way of holding them to this promise.
Oh..so true! I cannot count the number of times VR said that once they finish building this tool or that tool that it will speed up development. Yet where is the proof.
Vandraad said:Ruinar said:chenzeme said:To be fair? To be fair, VR stated that the changes were to quicken delivery of Pantheon and inferred that the 24 7 testing was for Pantheon (YES, they didn’t specify, but that’s what everyone (except VR) thought). To be fair, VR didn’t say anything about this mini game until it was forced on them, so how could we think anything else? To be fair, VR have not been fair.
Another note about VR stating things will accellerate development. VR has stated many changes were to shorten the development of Pantheon. But since they don't share their projections of how long development will take we have no way of holding them to this promise.
Oh..so true! I cannot count the number of times VR said that once they finish building this tool or that tool that it will speed up development. Yet where is the proof.
I guess the 247 players will see the benefit!
VR has said that they had enough money to see the game through to release. I said at the time that this was a true but misleading statement because it omitted any timeframe. I can easily see someone asking internally "Is it OK if I say this? We really do have the money and the staff to get the game to release. In 2068 maybe but no law requires us to mention THAT."
Optimistic highlighting of increases in staff levels were precisely the same. True, but they didn't necessarily mean what a casual reader would think. Hiring someone to work 10 hours a month or less is not the same as adding a full-time employee. But, if anything, these statements were less misleading since we all knew they had many or all part-time staff members not working in-person at an office. Anyone that didn't put two and two together was just wearing rosy glasses not being lied to. This too was mentioned on the forums although no one saw fit to highlight it.
In short - I have yet to see any persuasive evidence that they ever lied to us. Slanted things significantly to look as good as possible - assuredly.
In short - I have yet to see that the pivot to a mini-game is a mistake. An act of desperation - with no question whatsoever. Unlikely to succeed (given that at least three MMOs in development have tried this and failed) - definitely. But mistake presupposes the selection of a bad choice over a better choice. I believe we all are going a bit ballistic over the selection of a bad choice over a worse choice.
Those who say that VR has handled the communication of this U-Turn terribly and deserves it that we are going ballistic over it. Well ....yes this is entirely true.
Vandraad said:Oh..so true! I cannot count the number of times VR said that once they finish building this tool or that tool that it will speed up development. Yet where is the proof.
That is actually a pretty good point. Depressingly true, but very valid. Not the irst time we have heard the excuses. And don't get me wrong, I know development hell just too good myself,... but at some point valid excuses become just excuses. Stuff can happen once, twice,... three times... but if they happen ALL the time, you just have to deal with reality and realize something is wrong.
Savanja: We believe the marriage between MMO and Extraction is something that will speak to a much larger audience... This is not a cancellation of Pantheon, as Pantheon and 247 are symbiotic and developed in tandem.
Vague to say the least. First off, Patheon is a MMO RPG, not just a MMO or an extraction shooter style game for that matter. Maybe raid elements have cross over ideas between the two, but, as far as I can see, extraction games are much less to do with character progression, story lines and exploration and are more to do with; get in, take loot, get out, dont die. Symbiotic? Yes, I can see the raiding elements could have significant cross overs, but anything else? Mmm.. really not so sure.
Do us a favour, VR:
Front up.
Come clean.
Tell us exactly what is being planned.
Tell us if Pantheon will ever release as the MMO RPG successor to EQ you promised. If so, give us a ball park year!
I think the amount of time and energy and money we have invested in this project should give you cause to share at least this with us. I know you wont, but, really, after this, after the disdain you have shown us with the handling of this, you should.
Tell us if Pantheon will ever release as the MMO RPG successor to EQ you promised. If so, give us a ball park year!
I may be remembering this wrong, but did Kilson not state that Pantheon was "never supposed to be a EQ successor"? I mean, I am with you... it CLEARLY was marketed as such to me and that was the reason I pledged,... but neither the games direction, nor the statements made suggest it will be EQ 2, 3, 4 or whatever.
Rattenmann said:Tell us if Pantheon will ever release as the MMO RPG successor to EQ you promised. If so, give us a ball park year!
I may be remembering this wrong, but did Kilson not state that Pantheon was "never supposed to be a EQ successor"? I mean, I am with you... it CLEARLY was marketed as such to me and that was the reason I pledged,... but neither the games direction, nor the statements made suggest it will be EQ 2, 3, 4 or whatever.
People assumed it would be a spiritual successor to EQ only because Brad was involved and he was looking for Pantheon to return to a more 'old school' gaming experience. Its easy to make that conclusion but Pantheon won't be a new EQ1 but its own thing that hopefully has aspects that harken back to those EQ1 experiences.
If people still hold the opinion that we haven't been lied to, they should check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAWrYB3JGxg
Vandraad said:People assumed it would be a spiritual successor to EQ only because Brad was involved and he was looking for Pantheon to return to a more 'old school' gaming experience. Its easy to make that conclusion but Pantheon won't be a new EQ1 but its own thing that hopefully has aspects that harken back to those EQ1 experiences.
Well, those assumptions clearly got amplified by the Team and Brad. They knew it would bring them early funding from a crowd that was starved for their fix and have grown up to have plenty of spare cash around. It would have been easy to just say: "Nope guys, you are mixing this up... not gonna be EQ!", but instead they said: "We have brought the old team together, we have worked on EQ, we love EQ, we want to get back to what made EQ great,...". They only just started to say "Nah, not EQ!", when that funding dried up and they needed a different branch of players.
So yes. Assumptions are bad, but there would have been an easy way to set those straight. They not only did not do that, but they fueled the assumptions. If asked for deatils we got the standard corporate PR speech: "We can't go into details yet, but we will share it asap!". Just like they are doing now. ;-)
That is part of the business but it did cost them reputation and goodwill for sure. And as far as my goodwill goes: Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt NOW, I am more leaning to lighting the torches. Simply because I do feel tricked and abused by the company.
justdrop said:If people still hold the opinion that we haven't been lied to, they should check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAWrYB3JGxg
Something can only be dense relative to something else, it isn't a binary "dense or not dense". Example: You MAY not be considered dense only when compared to something with the density along the lines of a neutron star.