Something I loved about EQ was that the God deities were in the game and targetable(killable). I also, like how all npc's were attackable. I remember being level 1 and just following the text and reading the note in my invientory to meet the guild master, when I got to him I accidently hit A (for auto-attack) on my keyboard and punched him and immediatley got one shot. THAT was an experience. It taught me something about the game right out of the gates. I liked that. If felt real, it felt right. Scared me too!
Does Pantheon plan to have a like F*** around and find out playstyle like this?
Valorous1 said:Something I loved about EQ was that the God deities were in the game and targetable(killable). I also, like how all npc's were targetable. I remember being level 1 and just following the text and reading the note in my invientory to meet the guild master, when I got to him I accidently hit A (for auto-attack) on my keyboard and punched him and immediatley got one shot. THAT was an experience. It taught me something about the game right out of the gates. I liked that. If felt real, it felt right. Scared me too!
Does Pantheon plan to have a like F*** around and find out playstyle like this?
I'll bet a 1 year subscription to Pantheon that not all NPCs will be attackable, specifically NPCs giving out quests/tasks, merchants, class traininers, etc. They wont want to deal with the uproar that will follow if someone kills some NPC that another player needs to talk to for a quest even if that player just had to wait a few minutes for it to respawn. As for the gods? No clue if they will ever appear in the game.
Yeah, I doubt they will allow for that. I really do like that "WATCH OUT" feeling that the game had. Like if you ran to close to a npc of the wrong faction they would attack you. Sometimes you had to ask for help from higher level players just to run acrossed a zone in order to not get pummpled by someone or something!
While I get the point and agree that it would make the world feel more realistic - I also remember all too well the early days of WoW and how griefers and pvp types made life extremely frustrating for players that simply wanted to get quests, turn in quests, and sell things. Let a NPC kill a character - sure. Let characters kill NPCs? In a game with slow travel so that players trying to get quests or cash-in quests or deal with merchants would need to spend 15 minutes going to another town where the same thing might be happening? Makes perfect sense on a pvp server I will say that much. On a pve server - I see issues.
IMO:
If a or the primary design goal of the game is a PvE experience, I see no value in enabling indirect PvP.
Which is what killing quest NPCs, trainers, merchants, and similar is, in practice.
However, if Visionary Realms -wants- to have indirect PvP as a primary design goal? Then by all means, let anyone kill any NPC in the game, at any time.
Where they land on their implementation will let the customers determine their current design goals, regardless if they communicate them directly or not.
History has demonstrated that a larger paying persistent demographic would prefer it if their playtime isn't interrupted by things similar to and/or specifically indirect PvP.
So, if you want to attract and retain that larger paying persistent demographic, you should prevent egregious abuse of your primary game loops.
But, if you don't care how many customers you get? Again, let any other player arbitrarily prevent a subset of your paying customers to participate in the primary game loop, because it doesn't matter.
If you want my opinion on how I would implement if it was my game? Outside of very narrow-scope & specific story-related scenarios, I would prevent players from attacking quest givers, trainers, merchants, and essential NPCs. But, that's just me. :)
As far as gods go, I don't think gods should exist in the same dimension as mortals (nor mortals exist in the same dimension as gods), but they can certainly send avatars into our realm for a wide variety of purposes. This gives designers the most flexibility to implement whatever encounters they wish, with respect to religious/worship/deity stories and loops.
vjek said:If you want my opinion on how I would implement if it was my game? Outside of very narrow-scope & specific story-related scenarios, I would prevent players from attacking quest givers, trainers, merchants, and essential NPCs. But, that's just me. :)
I could accept a limited, narrow scope of NPCs that cannot be attacked but everything else should be fair game, open to players attacking them for whatever reason they want (or just by accident). I would expect that if you're wanting to build faction with some other faction you would need to go kill the things that faction opposes. For example, if you want to build faction with the Orcs that inhabit Avender's Pass, killing guards and other NPCs in Thronefast/Avender's Pass that are on the Thronefast faction would need to be viable targets. Then there are players that just want to XP off all those NPCs, specifically guards, because why not? Why should they be exempt from a source of XP and loot?
IMO:
From my perspective, it comes down to the definition of essential. If all guards are essential? Then all guards could be un-attackable.
I think, though, that there is a measured response possible here, in implementation. I would say that if it's a design goal that the new player experience be one that is more fun and less punitive, that the guards that patrol the level 1-3 area should be un-attackable.
As the player then proceeds outside the city, sewers, or similar, guards could be attackable by anyone.
But, if you wanted the new player experience to be less fun and more punitive right out of the gate? (literally)
Then sure, make the newbie yard guards killable, and let the new players die as a consequence. :)
vjek said:IMO:
From my perspective, it comes down to the definition of essential. If all guards are essential? Then all guards could be un-attackable.
I think, though, that there is a measured response possible here, in implementation. I would say that if it's a design goal that the new player experience be one that is more fun and less punitive, that the guards that patrol the level 1-3 area should be un-attackable.
As the player then proceeds outside the city, sewers, or similar, guards could be attackable by anyone.
But, if you wanted the new player experience to be less fun and more punitive right out of the gate? (literally)
Then sure, make the newbie yard guards killable, and let the new players die as a consequence. :)
I would agree that only the guards which are in the lowest level areas, the newbie areas, would be considered 'essential'. Some guard just walking around or standing at some outpost? Free game. EQ1 just had the newbie guards be level 50 such that people could attack them but they would just instantly die. Not until much later when player power exceeded those guards were they then buffed again to be essentially unkillable. Still attackable, but unkillable. I think that is a distinction we could keep. Attackable but you're just gonna die so why bother.
I think everyone should be killable. This creates a realism that EQ1 gave. Obviously NPC's that are giving quests can't be dead all the time, so maybe they have a 1 minute respawn and after they respawn they are invulnerable for a few minutes. Protected by the Gods. Also, while dead, you should be able to see their corpse so players know they are dead and coming back soon. And, if the NPC is so important to the game, they should just have a lot of HP or guards next to them. Maybe the NPC has a pet that protects it, there are many ways to have attackable NPC’s and still protect them.
However, having said all that, there should be severe consequences for killing NPC’s. Perhaps guards attack you, perhaps you lose faction standing, something to make you think twice.
Just think back to when The Sleeper was killed in EQ1. Killing Kerafyrm was the greatest gaming feat that in the history of gaming. I still remember that day and I talk about it fondly. If 500 players want to group together to take out the leader of Terminus, it should be nearly impossible.. but not completely impossible.
SilkyWhip said:Accidentally tapping auto attack while targeting an NPC and getting boxed up, is a tradition that goes back generations. I dare say, it's a part of new player experience!
Exactly, also as long as they avoid insane respawn times and push massive faction hits it is not that problematic. I really liked how people were not simply welcome in every city. Sometimes from being malicious and sometimes from accidents they refused to die or run away on. After accidentally attacking the NPC they killed 10 guards that tried to stop them and now everyone hates them here. That is far more interesting of a story than, everyone loves me everywhere because I am the chosen one.
Add in a powerful high level captain of the guards coming down to lay down the law to people trying to seige the city to balance things out a bit and we are all good.
I like when I see someone or even a guild doing something strange in a game, like trying to attempt something impossible. For instance, take down Kerafyrm. It has always been interesting to see people come up with crazy ideas on how to farm xp/gold/etc in a unique way that was not predicted to happen.
All NPCs should be killable. Find other ways to mitigate players doing dumb things like quick respawns and/or respawns with temporary immunity or whatever. As for gods etc? I draw a general exception there. I don't want to see them in the game or killable, it's always been such a peeve of mine to think some small group of mortals takes down beings of that power level.
I have a possible solution to placate both sides of this debate. Before you lose your mind when I mention the word "instance", its not what 90% of you think. What they could easily do is have vendors and quest NPCs (or any important NPC) instanced. Many MMOs use the technology that can flag your account/character for a particular instance in which certain NPCs exist (or don't). The "load" into that instance can be nearly instantaneous/unoticable to the player(s). If you kill an NPC that is critical to something, then that NPC no longer exists "for you", but you can still see other people interacting with where the NPC "use to exist" for you... because it still exists for them. Another example this is used in is for "keying" for certain events. Perhaps certain stages in a series of quests triggers a horde of NPCs that raid and destroy a village - and all of the NPCs in that village can be "dead" for the specific flagged player(s) until they trigger another event in the quest to save the city... but other players (that haven't met that part of the quest trigger) can still interact with the NPCs completely unaware of the deadly fate that awaits the citizens.
The technology has been around for at least 15 years now that I know of.
Add: Of course contested NPCs (open world bosses etc) shouldn't be instanced - but otherwise important NPCs (especially quest or perception points), that defeating does nothing but grief other players, should be instanced IMO.
i.e.: I would immediately quit the game and want a refund if I get a cool perception trigger on my screen **cool music** You hear a girl crying around the corner **cool music** ... and I look around for an hour for a crying girl just to have some douche laughing at me because he keeps killing the crying girl every time she spawns. No thanks!
Valorous1 said:Greifers are the worst. I'm not one of them, but I might want to farm some of the confilicting factions guards or something along those lines.
For the people that want to kill city NPCs to have the game feel "more realistic" to them... then perhaps those NPCs could be on multi-day spawn timers (for that player - using the instancing I mentioned above). I always hated watching people killing guards... just sitting down in the middle of the city killing the same 3-4 guys every couple of minutes. Imagine watching someone sitting in front of your town hall slowly murdering cops that walk by and nobody does anything about it... like call dozens of police right inside the building? Huh? lol
But ya... killing NPCs should definitely be allowed, just instance flagged (like I mentioned above).
I imagine they can use their disposition system to make things like this very difficult for players. Maybe city NPC's are loaded up with dispositions that make them run for help, call the guards, and who knows what else. And the guards they call call more guards, etc. I don't know, I'm not the idea guy but I bet the idea guy could come up with a "best of both worlds" solution.
Ranarius said:I imagine they can use their disposition system to make things like this very difficult for players. Maybe city NPC's are loaded up with dispositions that make them run for help, call the guards, and who knows what else. And the guards they call call more guards, etc. I don't know, I'm not the idea guy but I bet the idea guy could come up with a "best of both worlds" solution.
I agree all should be killable. But not easy. I would like to see more organic ways of making it near impossible. Dispositions, or even local residents run screaming through the town alerting all the other guards ending up at the Captain of the guards that would rush to the location followed by a group.
Attacking a quest NPC should immediately flag the player PVP and we as players can defend them ourselves.
Zorkon said:
Attacking a quest NPC should immediately flag the player PVP and we as players can defend them ourselves.
I like this idea. Maybe it flags the player for X number of "online" hours so a player can't kill the NPC and then ninja log until their flag goes away.
This is one of the few "advantages" of playing on a PvP server. The pvp disadvantages outweigh the advantages for me though. I no longer have the time dedicated to PvP in a game not specifically designed for PvP.
Ranarius said:I imagine they can use their disposition system to make things like this very difficult for players. Maybe city NPC's are loaded up with dispositions that make them run for help, call the guards, and who knows what else. And the guards they call call more guards, etc. I don't know, I'm not the idea guy but I bet the idea guy could come up with a "best of both worlds" solution.
What if the dispositioned mobs drop better loot?
Iksar said:All NPCs should be killable. Find other ways to mitigate players doing dumb things like quick respawns and/or respawns with temporary immunity or whatever. As for gods etc? I draw a general exception there. I don't want to see them in the game or killable, it's always been such a peeve of mine to think some small group of mortals takes down beings of that power level.
If, instead, the gods had emisarries or a plenipotentiary with whom the characters who believe in that diety can interact it then keeps the gods somewhat involved in the game. In EQ1 the followers of Tunare could freely enter the Plane of Growth and get quests from Tunare. I'd love to see something like that in Panthon where each diety has their own realm where only their followers can go. Epic quests could be started in such places, as an example.
I too never really liked the thought of killing the gods especially when, just a few expansions later, we were killing NPCs that made the gods from a few expansions back seem like newbie zone NPCs. At some point you just have to say "there is nothing in this game universe that is stronger or more powerful than X" and just leave it at that. I always felt bad for poor Innoruuk and Cazic who got their butts stomped by level 50 characters while their fellow dieties didn't die until Planes of Power and players were level 65.
I totally agree with Vandraad. Both on having the Gods active and reachable at least by some of their followers, and on the extreme undesirability of having entities go from almost all-powerful to trash one-shot by a level 70 over the course of a few expansions.
One thing I truly dislike in any MMO and I have seen it all too often is the prime enemy at release becoming trivial or even an ally after a few years. Just as I dislike factions being critical at release and meaningless two expansions in. Some of that is fine - alliances do change - but a reversal in the basic structure of the multiverse just to give players a new challenge - lazy and depressing for those that take the lore seriously.
If you want to kill guards to make the game feel more immersive, then that should flag you for PvP... if you want to be immersed in the game world, have at it boss, but I'm going to defend my local allies who protect those in my community who rely on them. Not to mention, attacking a guard should rally all of the guards in the town (like it would if you tried attacking an actual guard... who are trained to signal when the thing they're guarding comes in danger).