I cant watch anymore update videos. I don't understand why anymore would want updates on the devoping lore of the game & not game play. The video in the latest stream showing off the empty underwater enviroment was more than unimpressive. Not even fish or any npcs swimming around. When the team asked for donations in 2019, it was sold as early access & help test the game. When I check game play in streams I see no progress, the game looks years outdated, & doesn't look like it will be ready this decade. How outdated is the game going to be by then with all these new gaming engines hitting the market over then ext couple years. Also no spell check in the forums. Come on.
I have possible solution in the analogy of building a fine home.
Have you seen the photos of suburban development? The row after row after row of homes all looking so similar and crammed together? That's the other guys. They are going for volume and speed to make a few bucks and then leave the area to do it again. That type of place will provide shelter and allow you to poop in peace. It has a kitchen and a small backyard. Fine, nothing bad nothing too good.
Then there are the homes that are built slowly and with great care. They have solid materials, each joint and truss is set exactly. Consideration is given about the angles of light, the space to be present in. The builders are binding there reputation and honor onto the homes existence and will aim to be proud of the work they perform for decades to come.
It takes longer, but the results are clear and welcomed. Custom built vs IKEA, thin and flimsy vs strong and thick, deep and meaningful vs short and forgetful.
Choose wisely and the rewards will last, choose poorly and you may have regrets.
The team at VR appears to me to be craftsmen and passionate about the work. I hope you eventually see the value in your investment, I'm confident I will.
A few things to unpack here. I hope you don't read this as being argumentative or critical of *you*. I don't mean it that way, but I do think there are some few misunderstandings at play.
"I cant watch anymore update videos"
Straight away there may be a misunderstanding here.
I really don't think VR put out 'update videos'. They put out infomation of various kinds, but it is very rarely what most people would call the 'up-to-date' version of the game.
In Parting the Veil they are talking about aspects that may well have been designed years ago - and are mostly developed, even - but that we haven't heard about until now.
In Bring Out Your Devs they are introducing team members and giving us insight into individual's development work.
In previous Roundtables they would talk about a topic of interest to the community as shown from community comments in forums etc and answering community questions.
The Cohh Carnage vids tend to be the most 'update-like' because they tend to try and show the gameplay, but even those were often more showcasing particular aspects.
"I don't understand why anymore would want updates on the devoping lore of the game & not game play"
I would say everyone is keen to see gamplay, and we do, just not every time or unless there is a new gameplay aspect to show. Personally, I'm keen to see as many different aspects of development as VR have time to show us. Developer profiles (especially when new ones are taken on) are great. Insights into individual developer's duties are great. Concepts that are both embedded and still in design are great. Lore is great. Detail of specific sub-systems. Etc Etc. All great.
One of the big things that makes Pantheon different than the way the modern MMORPG genre has gone is their passion for horizontal systems and creating a 'world' not just a 'game'. If it seems there is a lack of 'focus' on main kill-loot gameplay loop, then that's possibly because, while of course, that *is* the main gameplay loop, it is the dozens of complimentary horizontal systems surrounding that main gameplay that make the game world feel meaningful and 'real'.
"The video in the latest stream showing off the empty underwater inviroment was more than unimpressive. Not even fish or any npcs swimming around"
I too was unimpressed in a way, but the point was not to show off graphics and NPC population, the point was to show the concept of underwater verticality and give an idea of the potential. The zone was pretty obviously barely started. VR most often and intentionally show peeks at unfinished 'stuff' and not the very latest most polished progress.
Should they show more polished and impressive stuff to the public? *shrug* Maybe. But it's pre-alpha. Traditional studio developers wouldn't be showing anything at all publicly at this stage. This is all new ground for a small, indie, crowd-funded, non-traditional development team and for the industry.
"When the team asked for donations in 2019, it was sold as early access & help test the game"
I think maybe different people have different understandings of what "early access" and "test the game" mean. For me, as someone who has been a software developer for decades, access to a pre-alpha stage does not mean something 'fun' or even very 'playable'. I would expect pre-alpha to be extremely buggy and incomplete. "Test the game" also implies playing the main gameplay loop, whereas all testing at a pre-alpha stage I've ever been involved in would be of quite limited sub-systems that would in no great way represent 'a game'. Testing I've done at early stages could even involve document-based dry-run flow testing, never mind access to anything like an online system.
I pledged in 2014. Part of the information I had was very early prototype footage, but mostly I did it on the strength of hearing Brad MacQuaid talk about it and reading the tenets. Being able to be actually involved in *any* capacity to help get it made is icing on the cake.
Maybe VR should be more explicit and clear on what the pre-alpha experience will be, exactly, but to be honest there is a lot of pre-alpha footage out there, only some of which is gameplay. I don't think they've misrepresented it at all. Anyone thinking of pledging should be looking at the website and the footage - and there's a load more than in 2014 - and I think it's pretty clear from that what pre-alpha sessions will be like: Some will be playable and fun. Some will be very limited and focused tests that won't be such 'fun'.
"When I check game play in streams I see no progress, the game looks years outdated, & doesn't look like it will be ready this decade"
Phrases like "the game looks" and "look like it will be" kinda make it clear you're judging 'gameplay' on pre-alpha test session 'graphics' and these are very different things.
As far as graphics is concerned, I think there are very few vids where the graphics are actually the thing being showcased and even then, many aspects of 'the graphics' will *not* be being showcased, for example there was a video showing improvements over Unity shadow capability, but even in that video showing 'graphics' the textures and environment weren't impressive, because they were showing off shadows. Again, the nature of pre-alpha testing is that almost always everything but the sub-system being tested are turned down or off or whatever.
Graphics have only recently started to become a focus for polish, really. I know games like Ashes of Creation continually show flashy graphics and Unreal Engine 5 loveliness, but they have received quite a lot of criticism for only really showing 'progress' in the pretty graphics arena and giving very little information on how the game will actually play.
VR's focus has alway been almost the opposite. On the systems and sub-systems that will be the foundation of the gameplay loop. While they have often talked about working on graphics and animation they almost always talk about the technicalities related to it. They have over the years replaced the Unity assets because they weren't efficient enough as much anything, re-factoring for the HDRP pipeline was also as much to improve efficiency and functionality as to improve fidelity and quality. They re-rigged and re-designed player models as much for efficiency as for aesthetics.
It is very hard to 'showcase' these kind of priorities. When you 'watch' a VR vid, you have to listen as much, or maybe more, than you have to watch if you want to know what is going on.
"How outdated is the game going to be by then with all these new gaming engines hitting the market over then ext couple years?"
It's not, or at least it really shouldn't be, because they *are* using an 'engine': Unity, and they are showing that when Unity updates, they are encorporating those updates.
Another thing that you appear frustrated by, to me shows another reason why they will not get outdated: They are not polishing until they are ready. They are concentrating on the vital sub-systems. As far as I'm concerned this is the *right* way to do it.
Though they have a difficult pressure from being a crowd-funded project: they must always have something to 'show' to potential backers, the final texture and animation polishing should be the *last* thing they do.
It does result in this odd dual nature, where they are continually showing stuff to the public, but it perhaps doesn't 'look' as good as you'd hope and I sure am concerned that what they show isn't sometimes to the best advantage of the reputation of the game, but also I understand that there is a certain reputational *advantage* to what they are 'showing' also. *I* appreciate that they care more about the game's depth and meaning than perhaps having flashy graphics and I actually quite like that, so perhaps others will too.
Also, I'm fully confident that the graphics and animations *will* eventually be all they should be in a modern game...
I don't feel attacked @stonefish or @disposalist
I'm glad y'all are fully confident. I still don't get it. Game looks like **** & every new big update on information from VR makes it seem like the game is further & further from completion. That underwater video really pissed me off. They played epic music while showing off absolute garbage.
Mateowanna said:I don't feel attacked @stonefish or @disposalist
I'm glad y'all are fully confident. I still don't get it. Game looks like **** & every new big update on information from VR makes it seem like the game is further & further from completion. That underwater video really pissed me off. They played epic music while showing off absolute garbage.
I am eager to help the devs test things when the time comes, but i am not willing to shell out any more money to just get into Pre Alpha and visit all the hidden NDA forums. I have been involved with computer work most of my adult life. I have seen pretty much most of it. At 52, i have been waiting since it was first thought of by Brad, i pledged some support. I would like to see the game enter a full Alpha, then Beta and not mashed together like an EA game under steam. I started to watch the cool concept videos too, but i need to test without all the hype, or lore or concept art. I am a get it done tester, and see the results. If it fails i usually informed clients of issues. In the end the team is working really hard to make this work. Nobody wishes for anything to fail or take any longer then expected.
However on that note, please understand the development level that is required to get to an Alpha stage. It is long, it requires tons of cash, and it requires a ton of team members to make a good MMO. The talent is wide here. So i too will continue to support the game, and not watch the videos. When we get there, ill test it out like a Newbie from start to finish. I am a raider, hardcore no more like the bat phone kids but i have done that for a long time too. I just wish to see the project progress too.
A lot of what we have seen, visually, lately has still been refactoring of stuff we have already seen. I mean, I clearly remember them showcasing all of the "finished" character models and being very excited about it; probably years ago now. Then, a few months ago we were informed that they finished the human model. For me it felt "meh". I understand why the old models had to go; it makes sense. And I understand why the team is excited to have more workable models that will speed up development in other areas such as animation and armor. I also understand why the community is excited that the team has new tools to make things easier to develop speeding things up in the long run. That said, I thought all character models were complete right up until they announced that they had completed the human model and the rest are to follow. I can't really get excited learning we are farther behind than I thought we were. Maybe I missed something; but if I did so could others have. The character models are just one example of refactoring; but there have been quite a few.
That is on the visual front. And visual stuff has a big impact and is memorable. But on the gameplay / combat systems / game systems front; the progress seems to me to have mostly been forward. From developing tools to build class abilities, using those same tools for NPC abilities, NPC AI, crafting, gathering, underlying infrastructure and code, etc... we have seen a lot of forward progress and not nearly as much refactoring. This is very positive to me since games first and formost have to be functional and fun. Overall I am frustrated with the progress that has been made, but at this time I am more confident than ever that the game will release and be a blast to play. But like you; the temptation of VIP forum access and Pre-Alpha testing is not strong enough to get me to fork over any more cash.
These comments disregard the code refactoring which to me sounded more like taking a proof of concept and turning it into a production ready product.
On a final note I just want to say that I have positive feelings about the direction of the game and the teams ability to bring it to completion.
Mateowanna said:... every new big update on information from VR makes it seem like the game is further & further from completion...
I think I can see where you're coming from if we're just talking about the Monthly Live Streams. I imagine it would only look like progress if you had the full picture and the live stream is only one part of the full picture. Where does the Wellpond stand in terms of "progress?" To me it showed that the HDRP is doing what it's supposed to do. The HDRP is fairly new, but without knowing much about the why/what/when of the HDRP the Wellpond stream might have been a lot less impressive to me. Anyway, just posting to say that I get it, and I think feedback like that is probably valuable, just try to remember to keep it constructive.
On another note, the newsletter today also showed a lot of progress. Another part of the big picture.
Sometimes the "look" of something is deceiving. Refried beans and sour cream on a plate, ugly but tasty. A big flashy fishing boat is run by fools, pick the dirty smelly one if you want a big catch. I don't expect the best graphics from this game, I expect a challenge that requires teamwork and endorphin hits. Substance over style. The well-pond was strange to look at because it was the structure without the trimmings and lighting and activity and shadows and and and. Scale and possibilities seemed to be the main goal of that video. But I too could do without the music, I'd rather hear from the builders about challenges and how they solved them, but I understand why they don't put that out there. If you've ever walked through an active large job site without a reason to be there you can detect the uneasy glares of people worried that you may judge their incomplete work as a shortcoming.
StoneFish said:The well-pond was strange to look at because it was the structure without the trimmings and lighting and activity and shadows and and and.
Yes... if you were paying attention to what they were saying after the Wellpond footage you will hear them say that the 'Depth Effect' is not turned on, which will effect the light defusion through the water; Meaning that the deeper you go the less light will be coming from above and the darker things will seem. Also Tehom said: "What you are looking at right now is still the canvas. So you're looking at the area that is still yet to be brought to life as we bring in all manner of this beautiful bioluminescent Flora, you know all the different animals and the ecosystems that we intend to have thriving down in this place."
They then showed off a lot of the concept Art for the Flora and Creatures that you will find down there. Some of which will add bioluminescent colors that will change the shadows and lighting as you move around.
Perhaps there will also be currents added that will effect movement and will make these plants and vines and such sway or spin in the current.
I share your frustration. I may have said as much elsewhere that my eyes glaze over every time I see the 'to-do' list. This frustration is not so much with the team as it is for the team. There was nothing worse for me than coming to the end of a big job (in the trades) and having to deal with the punch list items that needed to be completed before I could move on to something new. The fact that they overcame what I would call a near-fatal game design pitfall with hard coding is a testament to their tenacity and desire to create a game worth investing our time in. I am glad that the community was able to rally and toss out some thoughts and opinions on your dilemma. I would however bounce the word imminence off the back of Joppa's head, heh.
Hi Mate. Personally I think Thunderleg really hit the nail on the head. I think VR has tenacity, heart and great leadership. The hard coding path was an error. Big one. It needed to go. Since then... They have really turned their programming on its head and are making great progress....imo! I can only hope you stay on because I truly thing Terminus will be a great place to live for years.
Mateowanna said:I took in the latest Jappa video about items & got really excited again. I loved Vanguard & was so frusterated it didn't get the time / development it needed. I am happy VR is taking their time.
It is all a matter of degree. At the one extreme - we will all give up or die of old age. At the other extreme they will push out a buggy, incomplete piece of crap and we will all play for a week or two and give up.
My basic philosophy on this particular issue focuses on the old saying that the perfect is the enemy of the good. If they can get out a game in a year that is far less well done than they could manage with more time, but is better than most other MMOs, they should do it. This gives us something to play and them a revenue stream. The slow pace of play that they intend factors into this - they can release with no content at all for the highest levels and work on that while most of us get there. No good game designer *ever* thinks that the game is perfect and he or she has no improvements to make. But the time comes when the thing needs to be released anyway.
I agree in all respects about Vanguard - a game that with all its flaws I found better than EQ in so many ways. As it should have been given improvements in computers and the general state of the art since 1999. But, frankly, I would rather have a decent Pantheon in a year than Vanguard 2 in five years.
Never forget that the longer they take the more computers and systems are likely to keep improving so that the game they slowly and lovingly craft and release in 2027 will be fantastic by 2022 standards. And an unattractive piece of crap by 2027 standards.
dorotea said:Mateowanna said:I took in the latest Jappa video about items & got really excited again. I loved Vanguard & was so frusterated it didn't get the time / development it needed. I am happy VR is taking their time.
It is all a matter of degree. At the one extreme - we will all give up or die of old age. At the other extreme they will push out a buggy, incomplete piece of crap and we will all play for a week or two and give up.
My basic philosophy on this particular issue focuses on the old saying that the perfect is the enemy of the good. If they can get out a game in a year that is far less well done than they could manage with more time, but is better than most other MMOs, they should do it. This gives us something to play and them a revenue stream. The slow pace of play that they intend factors into this - they can release with no content at all for the highest levels and work on that while most of us get there. No good game designer *ever* thinks that the game is perfect and he or she has no improvements to make. But the time comes when the thing needs to be released anyway.
I agree in all respects about Vanguard - a game that with all its flaws I found better than EQ in so many ways. As it should have been given improvements in computers and the general state of the art since 1999. But, frankly, I would rather have a decent Pantheon in a year than Vanguard 2 in five years.
Never forget that the longer they take the more computers and systems are likely to keep improving so that the game they slowly and lovingly craft and release in 2027 will be fantastic by 2022 standards. And an unattractive piece of crap by 2027 standards.
I believe a lot of the work they have been doing the last couple of years has been to insulate themselves against exactly what you are talking about. They have been re-building tools and sub-systems to make them more modern, but also more scalable and agile so they are better future-proofed.
It is not impossible at all these days, especially when working on top of a framework like Unity that does 'move with times', to keep a project up-to-date.
I do agree, however, that they will reach a point where they should, and I think they will, release the game and keep it up-to-date while it is live (with upgrades and DLCs).
On the one hand, I hate the "live service" model, but only because modern companies have tended to abuse it as an excuse to release stuff that is incomplete and fix it later. It doesn't have to be that way.
I suspect too much feature creap is the main issue keeping this game down.
Embers Adrift is out now and playable. Low fantasy game without magic but still has that EQ feel. It's a simpler game than Pantheon and that made it possible for a small team to get it out the door.
The encouraging thing about Embers Adrift is that it shows there is a market for the old school style of play. Hopefully, the Pantheon devs can regain their focus and get something playable out before our grandkids retire.
I have been in silent 'waiting for Beta' mode for a few years, will probably upgrade to Alpha soon, so this is a question not a complaint.
When I watched the “water world” portion of the last video I was wondering why this feature is important. Not ‘creep’ nor unnecessary, but why now? I have been watching the slow but steady progress as most of you for a while.
Why not, for instance. devote the time and limited budget to finishing the land areas as playable or at least testable for Alpha? Water features can be added as Beta is becoming available.
In a past life, I was a contractor and was homeless – renting- for a while. I set aside some budget and time to build a house on land that I owned. I did allow “feature creep” a bit so it took me two years to finish the making all the trim and the kitchen cabinets. It was, for a while, pre-alpha but it was warm and dry. After it was finished, I converted a shop area into a finished office. About ten years ago and working in a different field, I realized that I had been non too happy with how I has done the kitchen/breakfast nook. With some time on my hands, I took out a few walls, moved some plumbing and electric and made some matching cabinets. The first day when my wife got home, she wondered “What happened to my walls.”
We sold the house several years ago as empty nesters and bought a cottage les than half the size, which needed a total renovation. Being retired it took me two years to get it finished. My wife tolerated pre- alpha with a kitchen consisting of a piece on plywood on saw horses with a sink cut in, while I made the cabinets, and a counter top from 8/4 slab wood. It’s done. Everyone likes it and remarks how an old guy can still function. Over the next several months while waiting for Alpha, I will probably redo the bathroom - not necessary or urgent – but my wife will like it.
O.K. Too long and meandering. I learned to meander some fifty years ago while in collage in Texas. Get to where you are going and enjoy the journey.
I get it. I have tried almost every MMO out there. “Nothing tastes” All of us feel it. I can almost see the angst on Joppa’s face sometimes. Why not “finish” what we have and wait for the rest?
Inselberg said:I have been in silent 'waiting for Beta' mode for a few years, will probably upgrade to Alpha soon, so this is a question not a complaint.
When I watched the “water world” portion of the last video I was wondering why this feature is important. Not ‘creep’ nor unnecessary, but why now? I have been watching the slow but steady progress as most of you for a while.
Why not, for instance. devote the time and limited budget to finishing the land areas as playable or at least testable for Alpha? Water features can be added as Beta is becoming available.
In a past life, I was a contractor and was homeless – renting- for a while. I set aside some budget and time to build a house on land that I owned. I did allow “feature creep” a bit so it took me two years to finish the making all the trim and the kitchen cabinets. It was, for a while, pre-alpha but it was warm and dry. After it was finished, I converted a shop area into a finished office. About ten years ago and working in a different field, I realized that I had been non too happy with how I has done the kitchen/breakfast nook. With some time on my hands, I took out a few walls, moved some plumbing and electric and made some matching cabinets. The first day when my wife got home, she wondered “What happened to my walls.”
We sold the house several years ago as empty nesters and bought a cottage les than half the size, which needed a total renovation. Being retired it took me two years to get it finished. My wife tolerated pre- alpha with a kitchen consisting of a piece on plywood on saw horses with a sink cut in, while I made the cabinets, and a counter top from 8/4 slab wood. It’s done. Everyone likes it and remarks how an old guy can still function. Over the next several months while waiting for Alpha, I will probably redo the bathroom - not necessary or urgent – but my wife will like it.
O.K. Too long and meandering. I learned to meander some fifty years ago while in collage in Texas. Get to where you are going and enjoy the journey.
I get it. I have tried almost every MMO out there. “Nothing tastes” All of us feel it. I can almost see the angst on Joppa’s face sometimes. Why not “finish” what we have and wait for the rest?
Not meandering. Well, yes a bit meandering, but I absolutely get the point, well made. And welcome to the forums!
I think there are a few reasons VR aren't doing it that way.
Firstly, though, they *are* to some good extent hehe. There are quite a few features that some of us would love that won't be in for release. Mentoring. Progeny. Stuff that VR feel *can* wait for later is going to have to. There may even be a class or two, that some are really keen on, that won't be in at release. Though we have high hopes for Bard, it looks like Necromancer will probably not be in at release.
Also, there are whole zones of content planned for after release - check out the map here (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/world).
Secondly, they walk a tricky line of taking care of the important fundamentals on one side and making it polished enough to attract crowd-funding on the other. They get a lot of criticism for not caring *enough* about making it 'look good', or at least not prioritising it. They are continually showing unfinished stuff, like The Well, in order to demonstrate 'concepts' instead of doing what Intrepid does with Ashes of Creation and showing attractive mounts (that they already sell in a cash shop, I believe?) and pretty graphics sequences from the latest Unreal Engine.
I'm not criticising Ashes - it's arguably 'better' marketing - but VR are happy to show stuff that is very obviously pre-alpha, even with all the criticism that gets them, because the game *is in* pre-alpha and it is actually the kind of stuff backers should be interested in. To me it feels much more genuine and I prefer to get the 'behind the scenes' info, even if it is rough. It's like DVD 'extras'. Of course it's not as polished as the main feature, but it's the more interesting stuff in many ways.
Thirdly, when they demonstrate concepts like The Well, they *are* unfinished. The reason they are unfinished is VR *are* concentrating on the core game and the main areas that will first appear in testing and be fundamental in release. They tell us again and again that they don't show us everything and they don't want to because they don't want to spoil it. I think there is a load of content that they aren't showing us. Also, there is a load of more finished content they *have* shown us that people seem to forget about, like the demo version they told us is used to show potential 'big' investors. Like the huge dungeon of Amberfaet that appeared in a couple of vids - and looks as big as an overland area - and has not been seen again.
Further to that, they don't have *time* to be continually presenting stuff to us even if they thought it was a good idea to show everything. Some might say they *should* have a dedicated team member producing 'marketing material' from what is more complete (or isn't, but could be made to look that way). Again, personally, I'm fine with pre-alpha to just be about actual testing and for pretty marketing efforts to wait until at least alpha or even later.
Fourthly, the situation is pretty unique and though I get your anology of building houses, it is not quite the same. VR had to make a prototype to gain initial funding, then build upon that to continue showing progress and get funding, but eventually had to re-work and re-factor in order to support a more stable and scalable (among other aspects) product. Some will say that was a mistake - they should have just 'gotten it done' building on the original, but most realise it would have been a bigger mistake long term to not re-do what they re-did.
This was somewhat like building development making a show home first, I suppose, but knowing that a lot of it was pre-fab and it wasn't built on solid foundations and didn't have a lot of the plumbing/electrics that the 'real' home would have. If they had tried to re-build the showhome in place, or built other homes in the rest of the development on the same pattern, it would have been a disaster.
They continually take the hard route by rejecting funding that comes with strings attached that would compromise their vision and tenets. By keeping the team as lean as possible and using the funds they have as effectively as possible. By not splurging on fancy presentations and marketing materials, but sticking with more honest and down-to-earth roundtables and dev chats and concept demos.
They have very different pressures, basically, than a very handy man building a home for himself and his wife. Some of the concepts are similar, like the pre-alpha kitchen sink, which proved the concept and tested the plumbing, but whilst you and your wife might be ok with a pre-alpha kitchen as long as the roof doesn't leak and the bedrooms aren't drafty, a non-handy house buyer going to a building developer isn't going to be happy to pay for a new house and find when they move in that some of the rooms are unfinished or that the finish is anything less than what is expected in a modern development.
The analogy there would be that us backers and fans would be thrilled to move in early and live in 'a project' and use what is complete and watch the rest be completed and finished/polished around us, because we understand the building works and, more importantly, we've been homeless (and looking for a home just like this one) for a long time. But most members of the public would very much not be happy. The reputational damage to the builders would be significant. The continual complaints and remedial work whilst trying to build/finish the rest would be a terrible overhead and an awful strain on the team.
Also, where the analogy does not work, is that software development isn't like building a house. The materials and techniques you use when building something that is amongst the most complicated and demanding kind of game development there is have to be the very latest and of the highest quality. Whilst the design and the aesthetic can be as old-school-inspired as you like it is still going to have to be built to a very modern minumum standard (and hopefully much better than that minimum) and have to use much improved modern ways to overcome the many weaknesses of the past.
Whereas buildings can absolutely be functional and desireable when rustic and old-fashioned - people often prefer a wood stove to underfloor central heating or a block wood counter to composite quartz - you can't get away with the equivalent in software development.
VR have gone some of the way to make it possible for them as a small team to do what very large teams do by utilising Unity. They've effectively sub-contracted a lot of the basic work. But they've found over the years that even that wasn't and isn't a simple saving. They've had to make their own assets - not just for uniqueness of product, but for rendering efficiency. They've had to make their own networking sub-system. They had to make some of their own rendering systems and then Unity updated theirs, so they had to encorporate that, which may have made some of the earlier work redundant (a good reason to not do 'polish' work early, though we know why they've had to, as noted above). They've had to make various of their own tools where Unity wasn't efficient and/or was too technical.
Anyway, I'm going on now and meadering somewhat myself, but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Many will say I'm making excuses for VR and being a 'fanboi', but as far as I'm concerned I'm simply listening to what they say and watching very closely what they do and not making assumptions.
Yes, I tend toward the positive, but as a backer, if one does the opposite based on no more evidence than me and flying in the face of what the devs say, then to me, that's just self-defeating and pointless pessimism.
*shrug* I dunno. I've been a backer since 2014 and manage to remain positive. VR are consistently sound genuine and remain passionate and positive. To be otherwise feels like calling them liars and/or cheats and that seems ridiculous never mind unfounded.
I'm not saying that's what you're doing, Inselberg! Or anyone in particular. Just explaining my point of view.
Mateowanna said:I cant watch anymore update videos. I don't understand why anymore would want updates on the devoping lore of the game & not game play. The video in the latest stream showing off the empty underwater enviroment was more than unimpressive. Not even fish or any npcs swimming around. When the team asked for donations in 2019, it was sold as early access & help test the game. When I check game play in streams I see no progress, the game looks years outdated, & doesn't look like it will be ready this decade. How outdated is the game going to be by then with all these new gaming engines hitting the market over then ext couple years. Also no spell check in the forums. Come on.
You are not wrong. I have been in this boat for a while. I'm an early supporter and I have long since kissed that money goodbye. I knew it was a risk but I really believed in Brad despite whatever real or perceived baggage he might have had. I don't think the project required Brad for completion but after so many years and still not even in alpha I no longer believe this game will launch or if it does I have serious doubts about what it will be. I hope I'm wrong but the game was already mostly a niche type MMO and with every passing year that niche gets more and more irrelevant. Will enough interested people be around for it to even matter when this launches in 2025 or 2028? Also, how many years can you ask for support from a pre-alpha state? Not saying this game is a scam or anything like that but it sure isn't a great look IMO.
EQBallzz said:Mateowanna said:I cant watch anymore update videos. I don't understand why anymore would want updates on the devoping lore of the game & not game play. The video in the latest stream showing off the empty underwater enviroment was more than unimpressive. Not even fish or any npcs swimming around. When the team asked for donations in 2019, it was sold as early access & help test the game. When I check game play in streams I see no progress, the game looks years outdated, & doesn't look like it will be ready this decade. How outdated is the game going to be by then with all these new gaming engines hitting the market over then ext couple years. Also no spell check in the forums. Come on.
You are not wrong. I have been in this boat for a while. I'm an early supporter and I have long since kissed that money goodbye. I knew it was a risk but I really believed in Brad despite whatever real or perceived baggage he might have had. I don't think the project required Brad for completion but after so many years and still not even in alpha I no longer believe this game will launch or if it does I have serious doubts about what it will be. I hope I'm wrong but the game was already mostly a niche type MMO and with every passing year that niche gets more and more irrelevant. Will enough interested people be around for it to even matter when this launches in 2025 or 2028? Also, how many years can you ask for support from a pre-alpha state? Not saying this game is a scam or anything like that but it sure isn't a great look IMO.
As many as we need to get the game funded and finished, mate. This is not a secret. We have never hidden the fact that we're a small crowd-funded team of passionate humans making our first MMORPG that relies on pledge sales and small investments.
Hi Y’all,
I don’t believe that any/many of us disagree with this statement.
“As many as we need to get the game funded and finished, mate. This is not a secret. We have never hidden the fact that we're a small crowd-funded team of passionate humans making our first MMORPG that relies on pledge sales and small investments.”
What some are wondering is if there may be a ‘better’ way of increasing support. No crystal ball or insider information is needed to run some numbers. Based on public information some 500 subscribers played in one region during pre-alpha. 500 x N is the number of pledges that include pre-alpha. Only VR knows that number, but is it more than maybe 3 or so? Will waiting another year to draw in more than $750,000 or so in pledges (not including investors)?
On the other hand, with some 10,000 alpha pledges waiting in the wings, might not moving to alpha actually draw in more alpha pledges? An additional 5000 or so alpha pledges increases the ability to move to beta. Moving to alpha would also most likely encourage many beta pledges to upgrade to alpha.
No one expects a perfect unfinished game in alpha, finish what VR must to finish what VR has and the future vision can wait.
Random thoughts no complaints.
Inselberg said:Hi Y’all,
I don’t believe that any/many of us disagree with this statement.
“As many as we need to get the game funded and finished, mate. This is not a secret. We have never hidden the fact that we're a small crowd-funded team of passionate humans making our first MMORPG that relies on pledge sales and small investments.”
What some are wondering is if there may be a ‘better’ way of increasing support. No crystal ball or insider information is needed to run some numbers. Based on public information some 500 subscribers played in one region during pre-alpha. 500 x N is the number of pledges that include pre-alpha. Only VR knows that number, but is it more than maybe 3 or so? Will waiting another year to draw in more than $750,000 or so in pledges (not including investors)?
On the other hand, with some 10,000 alpha pledges waiting in the wings, might not moving to alpha actually draw in more alpha pledges? An additional 5000 or so alpha pledges increases the ability to move to beta. Moving to alpha would also most likely encourage many beta pledges to upgrade to alpha.
No one expects a perfect unfinished game in alpha, finish what VR must to finish what VR has and the future vision can wait.
Random thoughts no complaints.
This is sort of what I was getting at about not being a great look. The game was originally slated to launch in 2017 and here we are at 2023 and still in pre-alpha? It's no secret that a much larger number of players (myself included) pledged with the Knight's pledge (or equivalent) that granted alpha access. When you go 6 years asking for more support and staying in pre-alpha it starts to look like you either don't want that larger number of people to see what there is or there is so little substance that it would shatter the veil of a viable MMO existing.
I'll be the first to admit that this is pure speculation on my part but when you are 6 year past the original launch date and still in pre-alpha that's all people really have to go by is speculation. Again, I am not saying this game is a scam or anything like that. I'm sure there are good people working hard on this project but from an outsiders perspective it feels like the plan isn't working.
"6 years past the original launch date"? I've been watching since 2014 and don't remember ever seeing a launch date. Did hey once give an idea of how long they thought it might take maybe?
*shrug* I'm as excited about this project as anyone and I think I'd remember if they ever seemed to be confident about a date.
"all people have to go by is speculation"? People have many many hors of videos and audio and updates, especially more recently.
Yes, it might not be readily at hand and conveniently compiled and it might be useful for new pledges to see if it were available like that, but really, there is as much info as people might want. More than most would want.
"No one expects a perfect unfinished game in alpha"? Unfortunately the nature of the beast these days is for 'the public' (and the press) to expect a lot from an alpha. Especially when crowd-funding is a thing, the alpha will need to be quite polished, because they can't really hope for uncontrolled footage to not get out. We've already seen some ridiculous criticism from well-known YouTubers even when they know very well they are looking at pre-alpha footage. It's debatable how much damage that does, but it's hardly a good thing and is a great example of the kind of clickbait-is-more-important-than-being-reasonable 'coverage' exists out there.
It's always a tricky line to walk for them: Wanting and needing to show progress, but not wanting to waste time on polishging stuff that might change.
They've received considerable criticism for needing to re-factor and re-work what was essentially a kinda prototype they built upon, but they built on that prototype because they needed to have a 'demo' and to show progress to keep gaining investment. What they made and have now is a proper scalable, robust system to move forward with.
I know some have been somewhat disappointed at what looks like some backward steps in that regard, and what feels like a long time overall, but for me, for a small, independant, crowd-funded, non-traditional development the way they have done things seems fine, the progress they've made is fine and especially in the last couple of years things appear to be going well.
For me the most important thing is the passion, dedication, enthusiasm and positivity the team displays and that has been consistent over the years. The most recent vid was the most upbeat display of a team doing their thing as I've seen.
I don't think they need, at this stage, to do more than they are doing. I don't want them to spend time polishing and presenting any more than they have had to do to keep a presentable fund-attracting demo.
They are getting to a stage where I think they need to be careful over what they show to the public. The up-coming Cohh stream is tricky as they want to showcase the 'feel' of real players being in a 'real' MMORPG and that's hard to 'show'. What most viewers focus on these days is graphics and action, whether or not you tell them that is not the focus of the video.
I think I've gone off on a ramble now. I'll stop typing ;)
I understand that the last thing they said is that they are hoping that if the next pre-alpha is stable enough they will go to monthly or every two months pre-alphas.
We should all set our expectations for no alpha in 2023. Those who cannot take the slow pace might be well advised to put this forum on callup for a year from now and check in then. Because barring a major breakthrough in funding it will remain a fact of life for, as disposalist has said, a small independent crowd-funded group.