Ranarius said:The problem with 1st person view in my opinion is that most games I've played do not allow you to turn your head. You have to turn your entire body to see to the side. If they designed 1st person view with the ability to use your neck muslces I'd be a lot more willing to say "go for it."
^^ This!
One mechanic I hated in EQ was the "stun from behind" when trying to run away. Literally every mob could do it, and would do it every few seconds. So even if you could technically have made it to safety (hp-wise), you would often die because those stuns just stopped you too often. And of course, at 20% hp or below your run would slow down to a walk...and you knew it was over anyway :)
Sarim said:One mechanic I hated in EQ was the "stun from behind" when trying to run away. Literally every mob could do it, and would do it every few seconds. So even if you could technically have made it to safety (hp-wise), you would often die because those stuns just stopped you too often. And of course, at 20% hp or below your run would slow down to a walk...and you knew it was over anyway :)
But it's just another reason for players to join groups and create risk. Sure it could do with some modernization but those types of experiences are fun.
This is hard to answer because some mechanics that I consider bad were added to EQ due to declining populations (like mercenaries).
But I do have two that I think work. I think a mechanic that I didn't like, that was added while the game was still popular, was a whole bunch of differnt type of tokens/currencies that are only earnable in specific areas that quickly are forgotten about when the next expansion comes out. For the very few players that still need/want to earn it you can't do to requiring a group and no one wanting to group there.
The other would be expansions that lock all content behind raid quest like Plains of Power did at launch. It was horrible for non-raiders becuase there was very little to do. I don't mind the high end stuff being locked by you need to give players more than a couple zones.
Selling items in EQ1 or any other game that had that old school mechanic. Please implement a good mark as junk system so that we can just sell off our junk relatively quickly. This is a quality of life feature that actually makes sense : our character knows when we pick something up whether or not it's just vendor trash or not, so selling it should be relatively simple and quick.
TLogan said:Selling items in EQ1 or any other game that had that old school mechanic. Please implement a good mark as junk system so that we can just sell off our junk relatively quickly. This is a quality of life feature that actually makes sense : our character knows when we pick something up whether or not it's just vendor trash or not, so selling it should be relatively simple and quick.
Why not just make grey loot utterly worthless? If you or another player doesn't want it, why would a vendor pay for it? Just leave it on the corpse. Or better yet, don't have mobs drop grey loot at all.
@Akilae One person’s trash is another’s treasure. From my understanding trash loot is just another way of giving currency for killing other then having actual currency drop form a mob. It would be a little odd if say a Bear dropped coin but a bear skull would make sense and some vender might buy for medicine making or decoration purposes (Shrug).
I personally completely agree with TLogan on this. But I find no joy in inventory management and so I love QoL features that help in anyway with inventory management. In EQ I was always very broke because I hated inventory management so much, I would almost never loot. I hope they add tools like the ability to lock an item you want to keep and mark other items as vendor trash for quick and easy selling. DDO was not perfect when it came to inventory but it had some really nice features in regard to this.
Totally agree with starlight in that gray loot is essential, and makes sense. Not only should there be a "sell junk" button at the vendor but I have a proposal that would be a wonderful QoL feature for Pantheon : there should be a permanent filter system in place where I can mark thinks and they auto sort into said bag if applicable (crafting materials, 5th backpack) as 1. Junk 2. Keep : items (potential upgrade) 3. Keep : crafting materials 4. "Auction" materials/gear to trade with other players.
I am all for having to click or have someone in party click to loot each and every corpse, but we should have the option to permanently filter items after first discovery to said locations. It simply makes sense.
Of course these filters can be changed at any given time (may switch professions etc). If multiple backpacks to sort items don't exist maybe a subtle color based border could exist to differentiate what category an item belongs to for easy sorting.
My worst experiences with game mechanics have come from EQ1 and EQ2 ironically enough (contributed to why I stopped playing). In EQ1 it was the poor mobility/navigation in a game that tried to create a false sense of "open world". i.e. If you can see a tree on top of a hill, you should be able to walk to it and not be blocked by an invisible wall... which was especially frustrating when running for your life but suddenly duck and start crawling in place because an invisible corner in the game makes you stop moving (add to that the fact that there were no maps so 90% of your game time was speant skirting the boundaries of an entire zone until you accidently stumbled upon a LOADING PLEASE WAIT... and hoping that you didn't die but actually found the next zone). In EQ2 I was turned off from the combination of a bajillion abilities that you could macro to the same button which didn't mean anything and key MMO immersion aspect of having your avatar be responsive to key presses was completely thrown out of the window with the queuing of abilities.
So in summary, the worst game mechanics for me have to deal with not having the control and expected responses of my avatar within a game world. As an epic adventurer, I don't want to get stuck on a pice of seaweed while swimming (Siren's Grotto) or accept some dragon having to slowly wind up and claw me in the face because I can't activate my block ability until my 6 other queued abilities finish going off.
Akilae said:TLogan said:Selling items in EQ1 or any other game that had that old school mechanic. Please implement a good mark as junk system so that we can just sell off our junk relatively quickly. This is a quality of life feature that actually makes sense : our character knows when we pick something up whether or not it's just vendor trash or not, so selling it should be relatively simple and quick.
Why not just make grey loot utterly worthless? If you or another player doesn't want it, why would a vendor pay for it? Just leave it on the corpse. Or better yet, don't have mobs drop grey loot at all.
Yeah I think this is a better idea. Just about all loot should serve some purpose, be it quest/task, crafting, salvaging, or equipment. Trash loot shouldn't exist and things the player deems as trash should remain on the corpse.
Akilae said: Why not just make grey loot utterly worthless? If you or another player doesn't want it, why would a vendor pay for it? Just leave it on the corpse. Or better yet, don't have mobs drop grey loot at all.Yep, that would be a step in the right direction, for certain.
Akilae said:Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - What was the worst game mechanic you've had experience with and why was it so bad? #MMOPRG#CommunityMatters
The unbalanced, dare I say unfair, mechanic where by casters suffered extraordinarily higher resists rates (meaning decreased efficiency and efficacy) when facing NPCs of equal or higher level than the player. Melee suffered far less from this with some classes experiencing nearly zero decreases in efficiency. What this meant was that, on raids specifically, caster DPS was less valued than melee DPS. Why have 4 wizards who get full resist after resist after resist, then are out of mana, when you can have far higher efficiency from rogues who can keep attacking ad infinitum?
What I've seen in the Pantheon streams shows this is again rearing its ugly head.
Ugh, yes. What a refreshing thing it would be to play a game where casters are competitive with melee. Melee endurance, if there is such a thing at all, is never an issue. Even if they run out of it they can still autoattack and defend themselves. Casters, when they run out of mana, are utterly defenseless. To make these two anywhere close to equivalent most caster abilities, especially defensive spells, would have to no longer consume mana and mana regen should be at least as quick as melee endurance regen.
The whole resist+resist+resist thing is garbage, too. If a melee character can hit Mob X 9 times out of 10 then a caster of equal level should, too. Fizzle + resist was always far worse than miss + dodge + parry. Then there's the long cast times versus instant melee strikes... more garbage.
Being a caster should not be so costly, especially if their dps is meant to be on par with melee. If all of those costs must remain then they should be dramatically higher dps than melee.
Although I get what you are saying - (in EQ any way) this balance was there due to the ease in which a caster could solo compared to the melee. Melee were more efficient in raids while casters were more efficient in small groups or solo. Nobody would play a melee if casters were just always better in every way.
vjek said:Akilae said: Why not just make grey loot utterly worthless? If you or another player doesn't want it, why would a vendor pay for it? Just leave it on the corpse. Or better yet, don't have mobs drop grey loot at all.Yep, that would be a step in the right direction, for certain.
The second step would be to have all dropped/corpse loot have zero vendor sellback value, and be un-equippable, without going through a process that involves an NPC.
If you're willing to accept that second step, then a functioning economy is within reach. :)
Add in no direct currency drops from any mobs, and you're well on your way to mathematically logical design. /swoon
I am a little confused on “and be un-equippable”. Is this even if you just picked it up but did not equip it? So more like bind on pickup? I think I see were you are going with this and I like the idea of having a functioning economy but as I have never seen one in an MMO yet it is theoretical on my part that I would find it fun and enjoyable. As I stated above, I do not enjoy inventory management so if this system worked, I would not miss caring around a bunch of stuff just so I can sell it.
But I am a huge fan of hand-me-downs. So much so that I am not sure I want a functioning economy if it means I can’t give my alts my old gear, or pass off weapons to guild members or RL friends. This is something I really like about EQ and I hope they keep that in Pantheon.
Another question, if all items that drop of mobs have no vender value then how would currency enter the economy in the first place?
Darch said:...add to that the fact that there were no maps so 90% of your game time was speant skirting the boundaries of an entire zone until you accidently stumbled upon a LOADING PLEASE WAIT... and hoping that you didn't die but actually found the next zone...
It's interesting that one person's "worst" can be someone elses "best." I agree with the other stuff you said (the invisible walls, bad corners, trees on a hill you can't walk to, etc) but the no maps thing I've liked since the beginning of gaming, which for me was about 1985. I remember some of the first dungeon crawl games I ever played. Memorizing directions that you went so you could get back out, or drawing your own maps on paper. In everquest I always felt like part of the adventure was learning the zones. Once you learned a zone you weren't spending 90% of your game time trying to find places. You only spent 90% of the time looking for places AS you were learning the zone.
But anyway, I'm the wierdo that enjoys learning the area, mapping it out in my mind (or on paper!), and then using that information to get where I want to go.
Daily limits: Not everybody has the time to login every day - please make 7 or 14 day limits (if limits are necessary) so people can choose to do a few steps every day, or an 8h session on the weekend to achieve the same progress.
Synchronized dance raids: Instead of having every member of a raid perform like trained circus animals and wipe everybody on error, please give us tactical challenges: Hordes of weaker mobs that have to be kept from reaching certain locations, goals to be accomplished in different rooms / areas in short successions, etc. This allows the raid to operate in multiple groups or double groups with the group leader / raid leader actually having to make tactical decisions and commanding units to tackle dynamic problems. Even send in the reserve if something goes wrong, because it does not mean automatic, unrecoverable failure.
No-Drop recipes / crafting materials: Recipes or crafting materials that you can only get on a raid. Not all crafters are avid raiders and want to support their friends / guild members without being dragged through various raids to do the looting.
Endless spawn camping for access quests / major quest lines: Endless campfests, because everybody needs the access / main quest and thus needs to kill an ultra rare spawn npc with an 8 hour spawn timer.
I really hate RNG in all of its obnoxious forms. be it in loot drops or in crafting or in upgrade attempts. RNG will kill any joy a person can have in game play. It is obnoxious and anyone who thinks it is a good idea deserves to be perma placed on the 0% end of the table. This was especially bad in Black Desert Online, it was so bad I quit playing because of it.
Some of you folks have had halcyon experiences with online gaming, if the worst thing you've experienced is an EQ-style train or the immersion breaking of a dungeon finder! As an aside, the biggest problem with a Dungeon Finder isn't that it teleports you in (which is better than the travel time/"sorry, have to go" treadmill; finding a pickup dungeon group shouldn't feel like trying to schedule a Zoom meeting for my whole work team!). The biggest problem is the community breaking, especially with WoW's cross-server dungeon finder diluting the player pool to the point where you're effectively guaranteed to never see those groupmates again, because that effectively makes you anonymous (which makes there be no benefit to positive social interaction... and no penalty to being a jerk).
My worst game mechanic experience? The brief period in time in Allods where the death penalty resulted in one piece of your gear having all its stats become negative modifiers, permanently, unless you used a cash-shop item to fix it. Yeah. Frankly, horribly mishandled death penalties are a fast way to turn people off in general. EQ2's death penalty at launch (it was changed not long after) was crippling. The basic idea wasn't bad; deaths gave you "XP debt" that you had to pay off before earning further progression. Okay, that's fine, but in its first version, you got a lesser share of XP debt if another party member died. Of course, you had to be alive to receive this penalty yourself, so if a group looked likely to wipe, it created a perverse incentive where you wanted to be the first person to die. This immensely disincentivized playing tanks (who would often die last even on full group wipes), and rendered several of the game's dungeons effectively off-limits to gameplay. Fallen Gate pushed a lot of players out of the game for exactly that reason; Ruins of Varsoon was almost certainly worse.
"Honorable" mentions:
We all like quests that provide actual story and lore. But FF14's massive "main storyline quest" gating makes catching a new player up to current content even more daunting than the usual level grind. Enjoy the literally 100 quests that you must do after hitting level 50 but before you're permitted access to level 51+ content! Admittedly, they've realized this is a problem and a quest squish is incoming soon. But still. Extreme flagging requirements to specific zones (EQ: Original Veeshan's Peak key, Vex Thal key, PoP progression especially before 80/20; WoW: Original Onyxia chain) are similar, but generally gate access to specific raid content which is... less bad, in my mind.
Cash sinks are good. But mandatory and unequal cash sinks are awful. Repair costs can sometimes be a trap, especially in games where the tanks accrue gear damage multiplicatively faster than other classes. Or pretty much any time when a class actually used ammunition. Both of these (EQ2 tanks early on, ammo-era WoW hunters especially using Timeless Arrows) sometimes led to situations where running content with some characters could realistically cost more money in upkeep than the content provided!
Buff/debuff slots that are wholly inadequate for the realistic number of buffs/debuffs being applied. Ask an EQ Shadowknight player about managing buff slots. Alternatively, talk to a launch-era WoW warlock player about the experience of raiding Molten Core; many guilds required that raiding warlocks (at the time, primarily a DoT class) refrain from casting any of their spells that applied DoTs or other debuffs because the original debuff slot cap was so low, and there were simply too many other essential effects that needed to stay active.
tooms said:I really hate RNG in all of its obnoxious forms. be it in loot drops or in crafting or in upgrade attempts. RNG will kill any joy a person can have in game play. It is obnoxious and anyone who thinks it is a good idea deserves to be perma placed on the 0% end of the table. This was especially bad in Black Desert Online, it was so bad I quit playing because of it.
RNG can be quite annoying at times, but it presents an element of chance that is at the core of RPGs, going all the way back to the dice of games like DnD. In combat, I think RNG really shines, and while it can be annoying to "miss" 4+ melee swings in a row when you have maxed out hit %, the math works out and in the long run you still benefit from having increased stats.
Where I agree with you the most is when it comes to loot tables. I, somehow, fall into the category of people who have incredibly bad "luck" with loot RNG. Whether it be the item I need dropping, or then even when it does, rolls against other players. I almost don't even bother rolling on things anymore to save myself the frustration of losing, because it seems to be almost guaranteed. It gets especially frustrating when you have seen the same rare item you want drop two, three, four or more times... and everytime it comes up you lose the item to someone new who inevitably has much better gear than you and also says "OMG and this is my first time here, thanks guys!". It just gets frustrating. Solving this problem isn't easy, but if there was a more elegant way to handle this than pure RNG that would be nice.
I know some guilds have handled this by decreasing the range for the RNG roll if you meet certain criteria such as seniority, overall need, importance to your class versus others, main vs. alt, etc. Perhaps the game could implement something similar behind the scenes... and if you've rolled on the same item many times and always lose, that your chances of both seeing it drop and/or winning the roll improve slightly... to help funnel needed items to players who are having particularly bad luck getting it. When you are putting in the work, it just plain sucks to spend months getting a single item that someone else could get in a couple hours in their first group.
This is my list besides what has already been said regarding the ability to train characters and or grief .
- MQ The ability to sell quest rewards that where intended to be no trade in the first place.
- Loot Right's and No Trade looting. The ability for someone to loot a item off a corpse that was not part of the encounter , this trivilizes the value of the item and the encounters themselfs.
Ranarius said:I want to add another one - voice chat. I know this is a contraversial one and I'm guessing I'm the minority but I get to post my opinion :)
I don't like voice chat because I want to hear what the game designeers want me to hear, not other players voices, or the music they're listening to, or their dog barking. I enjoy the in-game music and sound effects. I have quit playing games because voice chat was the norm, and I quit raids in WoW whenever the raid leader said it was a requirement. There ya have it :)
Couldn't agree with this more! I personally hate voice chat, it really breaks the immersion of the game.
Another is daily quests.
This goes without saying, but micro transactions.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - What was the worst game mechanic you've had experience with and why was it so bad? #MMOPRG#CommunityMatters
Death Touch was a pretty bad game mechanic, it didn't really do anything other than just instant kill you, no skill could stop it from happening, and nothing you could do about it except have one of your OT's or any other class with a tuant to grab it before it went off to soak the DT for your MT kept aggro to make it easier for healers to stay healing the right character.
I don't like any mechanic where you end up with a daily checklist of things you just have to do every day. Whether that is research, training something that can only be trained once a day, or daily quests. It gets to the point where you are using your limited gaming time (when it's limited) just running through your checklist of what you have to do that day. At a certain point you aren't really even playing the game any longer. If you take a break for a while, it is almost impossible to catch up, even by investing a large amount of time in the game because of artificial real world time gateways.
I'm not saying that real world time should be ignored, but I just don't like that daily grind aspect of end game. I also hate the feeling that I have to log into a game every day for some reward or to click a few buttons even if I don't particularly feel like it that day.
vjek said:Akilae said: Why not just make grey loot utterly worthless? If you or another player doesn't want it, why would a vendor pay for it? Just leave it on the corpse. Or better yet, don't have mobs drop grey loot at all.Yep, that would be a step in the right direction, for certain.
The second step would be to have all dropped/corpse loot have zero vendor sellback value, and be un-equippable, without going through a process that involves an NPC.
If you're willing to accept that second step, then a functioning economy is within reach. :)
Add in no direct currency drops from any mobs, and you're well on your way to mathematically logical design. /swoon
So just have them not drop anything at all. If it can't be used, can't be equipped and you can't sell it, then why drop the damn thing in the first place? Now you're just there clicking 'destroy' on everything and that is tedius to say the least.