Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

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    • 42 posts
    January 16, 2019 1:32 PM PST

    What I think all of you saying "concentrate on the PVE" are failing to grasp is that by watching the PVP and how it works and making the classes equal there as best they can should ALSO make the classes even in PVE

    Personally Im for having a 3 types of pvp servers  make one race based so there would be 9 teams on that server.  Make one be open everyone v everyone.  Then the last I would suggest 3 teams split the races up into 3 different teams or maybe make it so when you create a character you chose a "team" then you are stuck with that forever just a thought

     

    If it were three teams by race I would say Skar, Dark Myr, and Ogres ... Then Dwarves, Haflings, and Gnomes... and Last but not least  Humans, Elves and Archai 

    I started my EQ1 on TZ,  tried RZ stayed on TZ  later tried a care bear server and could not stand it.

     

     

    • 945 posts
    January 16, 2019 1:48 PM PST

    macgregoroi said:

    With my experience in EQ1 and PvP was that until you got to max level with some raid gear you where a sitting duck so most people would level up on a PvE server and get their character in a reasonably compeditive state then move them over to a PvP server. 

    This was when I quit playing EQ1... when they allowed PvE players to transfer to the PvP server... after 5 years of having locked servers.  The PvE players were in full Temple of Veeshan and Plane of Time gear while we were still trying to progress through PoT content... In a game that was so gear dependent, ungeared players stood 0 chance in PvP after that.  This is the reason I will be playing PvE... knowing that they will inevitably have population issues (like all games do) and start to allow PvE to PvP transfers; at which point I will likely have at least one outrageously geared character to transfer over *shrug*

    To also elaborate on the O.P. comment about PvP servers progressing faster than PvE servers due to player skill - this is only the case in instanced games.  It is quite the opposite in an open world game where one coordinated group (from a guild competing for a world boss for instance) can absolutely shut down your entire guild's progression.  Likewise, one good player can grief a whole group if at the max level range... at one point in EQ during kunark I remember playing on my lvl 20'ish alt and getting destroyed in PvP by a monk that had his epic, obviously in planes gear and had some other things like j-boots/fungi tunic etc... he de-leveled from 60 to mid 20's range and was absolutely untouchable with the 4 levels +/- window of pvp.  He was fighting multiple groups of players and guards simultaneously with impunity greatly hindering progression from 20-30 for quite some time.

    • 1033 posts
    January 16, 2019 1:48 PM PST

    Nathos said:

    What I think all of you saying "concentrate on the PVE" are failing to grasp is that by watching the PVP and how it works and making the classes equal there as best they can should ALSO make the classes even in PVE

    Personally Im for having a 3 types of pvp servers  make one race based so there would be 9 teams on that server.  Make one be open everyone v everyone.  Then the last I would suggest 3 teams split the races up into 3 different teams or maybe make it so when you create a character you chose a "team" then you are stuck with that forever just a thought

     

    If it were three teams by race I would say Skar, Dark Myr, and Ogres ... Then Dwarves, Haflings, and Gnomes... and Last but not least  Humans, Elves and Archai 

    I started my EQ1 on TZ,  tried RZ stayed on TZ  later tried a care bear server and could not stand it.

     

     

    It doesn't and it never did. PvP requires that classes be balanced between each other and ultimately ends in hemogenization of classes in order to insure every class has no advantage over another. Whether you agree that should happen, it is what does happen and has over and over again through each games attempt at balance. People aren't going to accept that another class may be their rock to their scissors, which is why WoW eventually became a rubber stamp and even if you could get them to accept such, PvP is not PvE, they are not the same, they do not have the same focuses, the same goals, the same strategies, or applications. They are completely different which is why many spells/abilties may be perfectly acceptable in PvE, but are overpowered in PvP. 

    PvE only requires that classes are balanced to the content and that each class provides use within that content. Past that, there is no need for tit for tat, class to class balance as this is PvP based approach to balancing. 

    This game is not a PvP game, it will not be a PvP game (not in the sense people see WoW, DAoC, Warhammer, Rift, etc...). It is a PvE game that will "allow" PvP on a special server. 

     

    I can't speak for others, but if VR decided to make PvP a part of their main focus (ie making it anything other than the special server it may be), then I would drop this game instantly and move on. I think there are quite a few PvP focused games out there, we don't need to make every game focused on it. 

    • 945 posts
    January 16, 2019 1:54 PM PST

    Tanix said: 

    PvP requires that classes be balanced between each other and ultimately ends in hemogenization of classes in order to insure every class has no advantage over another. 

    This was not true in EQ and absolutely unapplicable for PRotF.  The classes won't even be balanced for PvE.  
    What you are thinking of is a "PvP game" which this is not.  In a PvP game, balance is important - this is a PvE game where the devs have expressed the fact that each class will have its unique strengths and weaknesses (not homonegized).


    This post was edited by Darch at January 16, 2019 1:58 PM PST
    • 42 posts
    January 16, 2019 2:05 PM PST

    Look I dont want them to have PVP for all.   I am only wanting PVP on select servers.  You CB folks can stay on the CB servers and enjoy leveling with out the worry of getting a knife in the back from a fellow player.  I just think it adds to the experience apparantly a bunch of you don't 

    No worries enjoy it how you like it

    • 1033 posts
    January 16, 2019 2:14 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Tanix said: 

    PvP requires that classes be balanced between each other and ultimately ends in hemogenization of classes in order to insure every class has no advantage over another. 

    This was not true in EQ and absolutely unapplicable for PRotF.  The classes won't even be balanced for PvE.  
    What you are thinking of is a "PvP game" which this is not.  In a PvP game, balance is important - this is a PvE game where the devs have expressed the fact that each class will have its unique strengths and weaknesses (not homonegized).

     

    My response was pertaining to this post:

     

    Nathos said:

    What I think all of you saying "concentrate on the PVE" are failing to grasp is that by watching the PVP and how it works and making the classes equal there as best they can should ALSO make the classes even in PVE

     

    Every game that focuses on PvP (not EQ, it really didn't focus much on PvP to be honest) ends up hemogenizing the classes. So, his claim that by focusing on PvP balance, it will ultimately balance the PvE classes is the contention I have. 

    As for if classes become hemogenized, even without PvP, there is the "envy" factor which was the driving force to many classes in EQ becoming hemogenized. I think if VR holds to its goal and does not focus on class to class balance, rather focuses on class to content balance, they can avoid hemogenization, but it will be extremely difficult I think as we have years of people used to expecting class to class balance and they may have issues with that design approach. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 16, 2019 2:15 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 16, 2019 2:31 PM PST

    Nathos said:

    Look I dont want them to have PVP for all.   I am only wanting PVP on select servers.  You CB folks can stay on the CB servers and enjoy leveling with out the worry of getting a knife in the back from a fellow player.  I just think it adds to the experience apparantly a bunch of you don't 

    No worries enjoy it how you like it

     

    Why do you assume people are care bears because they desire to play a PvE game and not deal with the issue of PvP? I never understood this insult, it is rather ignorant, presumptuous and childish. Am I to call you a basement dwelling griefer because you enjoy PvP? 

     

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 16, 2019 2:32 PM PST
    • 287 posts
    January 17, 2019 6:59 AM PST

    Tanix said:

    Nathos said:

    Look I dont want them to have PVP for all.   I am only wanting PVP on select servers.  You CB folks can stay on the CB servers and enjoy leveling with out the worry of getting a knife in the back from a fellow player.  I just think it adds to the experience apparantly a bunch of you don't 

    No worries enjoy it how you like it

     Why do you assume people are care bears because they desire to play a PvE game and not deal with the issue of PvP? I never understood this insult, it is rather ignorant, presumptuous and childish. Am I to call you a basement dwelling griefer because you enjoy PvP? 

     

    This.

    I enjoy PvP along with many others but any degree of focus on PvP balance ruins every MMO it happens in.  PvP balance ruins the PvE experience.  Without exception (so far).  

    Simply having mixed servers eventually leads to the need to balance skills and gear for PvP.  This inevitably ends up nerfing PvE as it's not possible to balance for both.  What works in PvE does not always work in PvP as some abilities are way overpowered when used against other players.  In PvE we fight mobs that are way tougher than any single player so the abilities have to be matched for those encounters.  When used against a player instead the player is dead or disabled far too quickly to support a good PvP experience.  Unless all mobs in the game are going to be roughly equivalent to fighting another player there simply is no way to balance this.  And that's not even counting the damage done to player skills when trying to balance them among the classes and builds.

    Leave PvP to the PvP-focused games. Don't ruin Pantheon by  caring about PvP balance.

    • 10 posts
    January 17, 2019 5:52 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    This game is not a PvP game, it will not be a PvP game (not in the sense people see WoW, DAoC, Warhammer, Rift, etc...). It is a PvE game that will "allow" PvP on a special server. 

    I can't speak for others, but if VR decided to make PvP a part of their main focus (ie making it anything other than the special server it may be), then I would drop this game instantly and move on. I think there are quite a few PvP focused games out there, we don't need to make every game focused on it. 

    Amen.

    • 10 posts
    January 17, 2019 5:54 PM PST

    Nathos said:

    Look I dont want them to have PVP for all.   I am only wanting PVP on select servers.  You CB folks can stay on the CB servers and enjoy leveling with out the worry of getting a knife in the back from a fellow player.  I just think it adds to the experience apparantly a bunch of you don't 

    No worries enjoy it how you like it

    Spoken like a true griefer.

    • 42 posts
    January 18, 2019 6:39 AM PST

    Tanix said:

    Why do you assume people are care bears because they desire to play a PvE game and not deal with the issue of PvP? I never understood this insult, it is rather ignorant, presumptuous and childish. Am I to call you a basement dwelling griefer because you enjoy PvP? 

     

    Why do you think I used carebear as a negative term or insult?  Its a term that was used all the time to descripe the difference between playerkillers and player versus everything folks.   it got shortened to PK's and carebears  WAY back.  I even chatted with people at the EQ convention in Boston and used that term.  It was hillarious having people chat with you all nice and then they caught my red name tag that signified I was on a ZEK server.. Quite a few folks actually said "Oh your one of those" and walked away from me.  

     

    Sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings. its not like I was saying you were a snowflake or something. I mean jeesh lighten up Fancis...

    If you PVE'rs want to discuss PVE and how it works go right ahead 

     

    Us PVP'rs want to discuss how the PVP is going to work

    and personally YES in EQ they did nerf certain aspects of how things worked between classes  I seem to recall Wiz getting some kill spell throttled badly vs other players because it "broke" the balance of PVP.

    least thats what my memory is recalling.  I was on both sides of the fence as I had a ranger who was getting smacked by wizards due to that and I also had a wizard that was loving the near instant kill of that spell,  then it got "nerfed" and things went back to nearly being level again..

    Anyway Im just here to discuss how I would like to see PVP run.. I know others will chime in with other ideas who wont agree with mine.. OK Im good with that.  Discusion is good but lets try to keep the PVE discussion out of the PVP thread please.

    • 42 posts
    January 18, 2019 6:40 AM PST

    Jammer said:

    Nathos said:

    Look I dont want them to have PVP for all.   I am only wanting PVP on select servers.  You CB folks can stay on the CB servers and enjoy leveling with out the worry of getting a knife in the back from a fellow player.  I just think it adds to the experience apparantly a bunch of you don't 

    No worries enjoy it how you like it

    Spoken like a true griefer.

     

    ok sorry whats a greifer, its a new term to me when used like that.

    • 1033 posts
    January 18, 2019 9:56 AM PST

    Nathos said:

    Tanix said:

    Why do you assume people are care bears because they desire to play a PvE game and not deal with the issue of PvP? I never understood this insult, it is rather ignorant, presumptuous and childish. Am I to call you a basement dwelling griefer because you enjoy PvP? 

     

    Why do you think I used carebear as a negative term or insult?  Its a term that was used all the time to descripe the difference between playerkillers and player versus everything folks.   it got shortened to PK's and carebears  WAY back.  I even chatted with people at the EQ convention in Boston and used that term.  It was hillarious having people chat with you all nice and then they caught my red name tag that signified I was on a ZEK server.. Quite a few folks actually said "Oh your one of those" and walked away from me.  

     

    Sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings. its not like I was saying you were a snowflake or something. I mean jeesh lighten up Fancis...

    If you PVE'rs want to discuss PVE and how it works go right ahead 

     

    Us PVP'rs want to discuss how the PVP is going to work

    and personally YES in EQ they did nerf certain aspects of how things worked between classes  I seem to recall Wiz getting some kill spell throttled badly vs other players because it "broke" the balance of PVP.

    least thats what my memory is recalling.  I was on both sides of the fence as I had a ranger who was getting smacked by wizards due to that and I also had a wizard that was loving the near instant kill of that spell,  then it got "nerfed" and things went back to nearly being level again..

    Anyway Im just here to discuss how I would like to see PVP run.. I know others will chime in with other ideas who wont agree with mine.. OK Im good with that.  Discusion is good but lets try to keep the PVE discussion out of the PVP thread please.

    The term is a negative term, it was created specifically to insult people who did not want to PvP. A care bear is a fluffly little baby cartoon animal from a childs cartoon show. You implying people who do not want to PvP are these things is absolutely an insult. Maybe you are just too young and ingnorant and sheepishly use words you know nothing about because all the other L33T PvPers out there use those cool words right? 

    It is bad enough that you are insulting, but then you are ignorant about your own insults. That either makes you a social moron, or a troll. 

    Either way, I doubt you are here to try and discuss anything *as, rather just like you do in PvP, you are trying to irritate and antagonize. You make the perfect case as to why some people dislike PvP. 

     

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 18, 2019 10:01 AM PST
    • 287 posts
    January 18, 2019 10:21 AM PST

    Nathos said:

    Discusion is good but lets try to keep the PVE discussion out of the PVP thread please.

    That's not possible.  What is done to balance PvP directly impacts PvE and almost never in a good way.  PvE becomes a casualty of PvP balancing efforts.  There is no way to discuss one without discussing the other, at least not in this context of Pantheon.


    This post was edited by Akilae at January 18, 2019 10:22 AM PST
    • 42 posts
    January 18, 2019 12:50 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    The term is a negative term, it was created specifically to insult people who did not want to PvP. A care bear is a fluffly little baby cartoon animal from a childs cartoon show. You implying people who do not want to PvP are these things is absolutely an insult. Maybe you are just too young and ingnorant and sheepishly use words you know nothing about because all the other L33T PvPers out there use those cool words right? 

    It is bad enough that you are insulting, but then you are ignorant about your own insults. That either makes you a social moron, or a troll. 

    Either way, I doubt you are here to try and discuss anything *as, rather just like you do in PvP, you are trying to irritate and antagonize. You make the perfect case as to why some people dislike PvP. 

     

    Its insulting cause you took the label as an insult.  Its just another term for PVE'r  Why cause they were blue servers and they all went after content, not each other. 

    So I labeled it as such when I was playing back in 2000 and also when I attended the EQ convention in Boston, No one back then boo-hoo'd about it then some of them even wore it as a badge of honor  they were the nice carebear folks and I was an evil player killer

    But seriously I'm insulting?  You have labeled me ignorant, insulting, a troll,AND a social moron. 

     

    As I said forgive me for hurting your feelings you seem really butt hurt about the term.

     

    SO PVE'r   How about some nice things Tanix to say instead of calling my thoughts basically trash.

     

    So far you have not countered anything I put forth from my actual experiences in RL or in EQ as to game play.

     

    • 42 posts
    January 18, 2019 12:52 PM PST

    Akilae said:

    Nathos said:

    Discusion is good but lets try to keep the PVE discussion out of the PVP thread please.

    That's not possible.  What is done to balance PvP directly impacts PvE and almost never in a good way.  PvE becomes a casualty of PvP balancing efforts.  There is no way to discuss one without discussing the other, at least not in this context of Pantheon.

     

    Not always they could choose to nerf player abilities and spells vs other players back then if they chose.  I gave a perfect example of how they did with the ? comet ?  spell for Wizards from what I recall it worked full power for like a week or so then they nerfed it in PVP and it was still powerful but not what it was vs NPC's 

     

     

    • 560 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:32 PM PST

    Nathos said:

    Why do you think I used carebear as a negative term or insult?  Its a term that was used all the time to descripe the difference between playerkillers and player versus everything folks

    Nathos said:

    Its insulting cause you took the label as an insult.  Its just another term for PVE'r  Why cause they were blue servers and they all went after content, not each other.

     

     

    It is times like this that I wish I was better at expressing my thoughts. I will just say it is confusing to me that anyone could not see how this is demeaning way to describe PVE players. I for one would never describe myself as such.

    But reading though this thread it reinforces a lot of my perception on why mixing PVP and PVE is like mixing oil and water. I think it is important to note that for a PVE player very little if any good can come from mixing the two play styles.

    One of the core reasons I have no interest in playing on a PVP server is my personal experience of friends talking about PVP. Stories of them being proud and excited when they found a perfect opportunity to stab someone in the back. They never had stories of a fair duel or knightly honor.

    Quick note I realize that the world is full of all kinds of people and that my experiences do not fully reflect all PVP players.

     


    This post was edited by Susurrus at January 18, 2019 1:37 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    January 18, 2019 3:09 PM PST

    In defense of Nathos, I am far from young and more experienced at MMOs/MUDs than most and I do not consider carebear to be an insult.

    Sure pvp players often insult pve players and say we play an easy unchallenging game and only pvp players are the true "pros". But they tend to have more ...active .... mouths than we do and go in for a lot of trash talk. They also tend to be younger. I don't think "carebear" increases the insult-level. I am. of course, talking in general and I am sure that the pvp players that post *here* are just as nice and kind and gentle and mature as we carebears are.

    • 1033 posts
    January 19, 2019 7:07 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    In defense of Nathos, I am far from young and more experienced at MMOs/MUDs than most and I do not consider carebear to be an insult.

    Sure pvp players often insult pve players and say we play an easy unchallenging game and only pvp players are the true "pros". But they tend to have more ...active .... mouths than we do and go in for a lot of trash talk. They also tend to be younger. I don't think "carebear" increases the insult-level. I am. of course, talking in general and I am sure that the pvp players that post *here* are just as nice and kind and gentle and mature as we carebears are.

     

    The term was created specifically to be an insult. Whether you or others take it as such is irrelevant, it was originally meant as such and by its basic definition is so.

     

    • 3852 posts
    January 19, 2019 7:34 AM PST

    I envy your ability to feel so certain that you are right and all the people that disagree with you are wrong - even if they were actively playing pvp at the time the word was coined.

    From a linguisitcs point of view it is ...interesting .... to see an argument made that the term is an insult whether or not the person using it takes it as such (your words) and whether or not the person to whom it is directed takes it as such (your words) because of how it was originally meant decades earlier. I would argue that the meaning of words often changes dramatically over years and it often doesn't take all that long. 

    If someone tells you that you are "cool" will you run to put a jacket on before you freeze because it means you are cold? But I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that "it was originally meant as such and by its basic definition is so" (your words)


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 19, 2019 7:36 AM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 19, 2019 9:03 AM PST

    Nathos said:

    Tanix said:

    The term is a negative term, it was created specifically to insult people who did not want to PvP. A care bear is a fluffy little baby cartoon animal from a child's cartoon show. You implying people who do not want to PvP are these things is absolutely an insult. Maybe you are just too young and ignorant and sheepishly use words you know nothing about because all the other L33T PvPers out there use those cool words right? 

    It is bad enough that you are insulting, but then you are ignorant about your own insults. That either makes you a social moron, or a troll. 

    Either way, I doubt you are here to try and discuss anything *as, rather just like you do in PvP, you are trying to irritate and antagonize. You make the perfect case as to why some people dislike PvP. 

     

    Its insulting cause you took the label as an insult.  Its just another term for PVE'r  Why cause they were blue servers and they all went after content, not each other.

     

    Again, this is ignorance and in defiance of the actual meaning and history of the word. Look up what Care Bears are, it is meant to be an insult, there is nothing civil about its use.


    Nathos said:

    So I labeled it as such when I was playing back in 2000 and also when I attended the EQ convention in Boston, No one back then boo-hoo'd about it then some of them even wore it as a badge of honor  they were the nice carebear folks and I was an evil player killer


    Whoopie,I was playing and Wizzing perm death MUDs/MUSHs back in the late 80's, early 90's, your anecdotal excuse to the term is irrelevant. As I said, by the very history and meaning of the word with its use, it is insulting. You are essentially calling anyone who doesn't want to PvP a scared little child who is too tender tp handle playing with the "big boys". It is a taunt, an insult, a demeaning comment meant to be so. Those who think it is just a common term not offensive are either ignorant or lying.



    Nathos said:

    But seriously I'm insulting?  You have labeled me ignorant, insulting, a troll,AND a social moron. 

    They aren't name calling, rather they are accurate descriptions of your behavior. You have attacked form the start, calling names, acting arrogant, dismissing, and demeaning in your comments to those who don't agree with your opinions on PvP. You called me and others directly care bears (ignorant of the term and its origin), you implied I was emotional and over reactive to your insults, as if I am the one over reacting. You seem to be oblivious of your own words, acting as if somehow you are now the victim here. This is what someone who is void of tact and social awareness is, it is called a social moron. They start insulting then act surprised when people call them out on it only to play the victim when pressed on the issue.

     

    Nathos said:

    As I said forgive me for hurting your feelings you seem really butt hurt about the term.

    Again, implying that my feelings are hurt is another slight and using stupid terms like "butt hurt" is typical of the socially immature. The issue is you using terms to demean ignorantly or based on your continued use of words, I have to assume you are either a kid or socially inept, lacking any basic form of ability to interact with people without sounding like an obnoxious child.

     

    Nathos said:

    SO PVE'r   How about some nice things Tanix to say instead of calling my thoughts basically trash.

    You make assumptions, and love to categorize. Based on your responses, I have played PvP long before you in much harsher systems, so can we stop the assumptions that I am of some category that you love to talk down to? Maybe I don't PvP with random people anymore because I find that most of the PvP community has become people like you, childish, socially inept and lacking and form of respect for others?

    Also, you tend to have a problem dealing with reality, I did not call your thoughts trash, I responded to the problems with your position using proper arguments based on experience and logical means. Others here have also pointed out that PvP and PvE don't work well together because of the different focuses, yet you dismissed them out of hand and proclaim your position to be the gospel truth.

     

    Nathos said:

    So far you have not countered anything I put forth from my actual experiences in RL or in EQ as to game play.

     


    I and others absolutely did, you failed to deal with them, you simply ignored/dismissed them, insulted and went on.

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 19, 2019 9:05 AM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 19, 2019 9:16 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    I envy your ability to feel so certain that you are right and all the people that disagree with you are wrong - even if they were actively playing pvp at the time the word was coined.

    From a linguisitcs point of view it is ...interesting .... to see an argument made that the term is an insult whether or not the person using it takes it as such (your words) and whether or not the person to whom it is directed takes it as such (your words) because of how it was originally meant decades earlier. I would argue that the meaning of words often changes dramatically over years and it often doesn't take all that long. 

    If someone tells you that you are "cool" will you run to put a jacket on before you freeze because it means you are cold? But I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that "it was originally meant as such and by its basic definition is so" (your words)

     

    I was actively playing PvP when it was coined as well. I also know what the origin of the word speaks to. Do you know where "Care Bear" comes from? Do you know what it is? You are seriously going to tell me referring to someone who does not want to PvP as a childish fluffy little baby emotional support bear is an endearing term? Really?

     

    So I am not right simply because I am providing an opinion, I am right because I provide facts with my anecdotal. All you and Nathos have provided is anecdotal claim that conflicts with the basic logical definition and origin of the word. Do you think Griefer is an endearing term to describe PvP players as well?

    So your argument is that the word, which was coined to be derogatory is no longer derogatory because people now ignorantly use it?

    Hate to break it to you, but you are wrong. Go look up Care Bear under Urban Dictionary slang : Care Bear.

    1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears. Abbreviated CB. Compare with RPK, Player Killing/PK, PVP.

    So, I think your argument is invalid as is shown that the number one definition for Care Bear still is listed as an insult and derogatory.

     

     

    • 303 posts
    January 19, 2019 9:18 AM PST

    I'm very much interested in playing on a pvp server, preferably an FFA one if there'll be one avaliable.

    My experience with pvp in mmos is limited to wow but here goes either way: I hope they don't make an effort with pvp at all, just let it happen and balance pve as they see fit. I'm not saying it because I particularily care if pvp balancing interferes with pve or not but because I worry any kind of focus on pvp will take then fun away from it.

    In classic wow when it came out, pvp was absolutely thrilling and an absolutely great experience for those, like me, who really enjoyed the pvp servers (of course there were also pve servers). Later, however, he devs decided to throw the pvp community a bone and implement an honor rank system, battlegrounds, dishonorable kills from killing opposite faction NPCs etc. Its all fine and dandy in its own right I suppose but its definitely a completely different thing. Pvp went from a spontaneous thing that happened organically (that still existed in a more limited for afterwards, granted) to a more organized and pve-like thing where people would carefully form groups and grind things out for double digit hours a day. In TBC came the arenas and pvp gear rewards with special pvp stats that separated gear for pve from gear for pvp, it was largely not viable to use your gear from one while doing the other. In my opinion this dehomogenized the game greatly and I believe split the community in two almost as if they were playing two completely separate games just in the same space. Since then I believe its gotten even more separated.

    All these things of course were probably made to make pvp more structured, "gamified" and overall more competitively fair but imo its a poor fit for pvp combat in a persistent world game. Its more akin to exporting your character looks from the mmo into a moba, playing some and then maybe going back to the mmo. Part of the fun in pvp is the danger and recognizing when an enemy is too powerful to take on. I don't think its reasonable to expect I should always have a fighting chance against someone in a game about character growth and progression. I'm completely fine getting my ass handed to me by a guy with better gear or higher level just like I would expect a high level raid boss to make short work of me if I was wearing poor equipment or was low level.

    I can see why it would be frustrating from the perspective of match-based games like RTS, MOBAs or FPS but in the context of a persistent world RPG where simulated character skill and growth is so important, it makes sense for this to be the same in PvP as well.

    In short: Balance classes and items around PvE. People will figure out a PvP meta around those things and I guarantee PvP will be better off for it. Just look at Brood War, it hasn't been patched in almost 20 years and the meta is still evolving.

    • 1033 posts
    January 19, 2019 9:20 AM PST

    starblight said:

    Quick note I realize that the world is full of all kinds of people and that my experiences do not fully reflect all PVP players.

     

     

    True, but we all are required to use words properly to achieve understanding, otherwise our message is lost. Them ignorantly using a term, then trying to defend it as acceptable is not what I would call genuinely attempting to communicate.

    • 1428 posts
    January 19, 2019 10:24 AM PST

    realistically pvp can never be balance because it's all about perspective of individuals.  the classes are meant to be different, otherwise, why even have classes if you want 'balance'?