Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

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    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 9:46 AM PST

    (will update points as i explore the idea and information digging through the threads)

    (omitted #79 as the panel doesn't have representation for pvpers)

    Pantheon Rise of The Fallen Voices of Terminus Show #85 Mechanics: PvP Discussion w/ Phaiden

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc7li8XOcxU

     

    first and foremost i agree with devs that pve should be primary focus of the game.  the purpose of this thread to have coexistence between pve and pvp players, give the devs some ideas, and to build a healthy dicussion.

     

    points of interest: 

    -it appears that the current plan is for characters to be server locked.  pvp on pvp server only/pve on pve server only.  separating the two into respective servers alienates player bases.  from my memories based on guild progression websites, majority of the high end pve guilds were are located on pvp servers.  pvpers tend to be more adaptable and skilled due the way they approach the game.  pve guilds are always looking for players who are dedicated quick learners.  i know that pvpers prefer the management and game plan provided from pvers.  this has been a working relationship that no one talks about.  how do we create an enviroment where coexistence is possible in an open world scenario?

    by default all players are neutral to each other.  a player can flag and can immediately kill another player (they can't kill npcs.  no one likes players that kill quest givers, vendors etc)

    reasons a player would want to kill another player:  said player is disrupting rotation, player wants players location, player wants to grief.

    pvp protection: 

    killed player(neutral) gains stacking damage reduction/damage buff vs players.  each time the neutral player kills a flagged player the buff degrades. 

    player killer(flagged) gains a stacking damage reduction/damage debuff vs players and also prevents them for entering the cities(KOS by guards).  each time the player killer is killed by neutral players the debuff degrades. 

    this can go on indefinitely until one side gives up. it'll cultivate appreciation or animosity.  the purpose of this system is to eliminate any faction based/affiliation and just streamlines the pvp in a case by case situation left up to the players involved.

    *this is strictly for open world

     

    -incentives for pvp in controlled scenario? players that que arena/deathmatch based matches are looking for prestige and lean towards cosmetic rewards(titles, costumes, mounts).  for CTF winning a match rewards a loot drop buff(5% chance for extra loot) for certain time?  point control rewards a gathering buff(additional materials while gathering)?  assault/defend gives crafting buff(time reduction)?

     

    how will pvp function?

    -staying true to the vision of a team based game, it should be balanced around the max party size* no single class should be able to do everything.  using the analogy of chess: if all the pieces were a queen then it would be very boring. classes should have defining strengths and weaknessess.

    -target acquistion(tab target, list, click target, keystrokes allowing previous/next/closest), spell bars/keybindings(ability act and react quickly), mods(will this even exist for pvp?  not having mods accentuates expression and skill)?

    -cc is an important aspect in pvp so would it be balanced with diminishing returns(world of warcraft) or after a certain amount of cc is applied you have a moment of immunity(black desert online)?  dr is balanced in small scale. -cc can be cycle until each dr reset for each type of cc- immunity is better for large scale. -2 cc limit with 5 sec of immunity-

    i'll slowly go through each class on a spell by spell basis and toss ideas

    tanks:  utility primary, cc secondary, damage supplemental

    -dps:  sustained/burst primary, cc secondary, utility supplemental

    -healers:  healing primary, secondary utility, damage supplemental

    -ccrs:  cc primary, damage secondary, utility supplemental

    (tilde used for comments and application for pvp)

     

    Cleric

    Favor of the Order

    Passive ability. Your successful melee attacks heal y ou for X% of the damage they deal.

    White Light

    You overwhelm an Undead enemy with brilliantly pure light, inflicting significant damage over time and imposing your righteous will, causing them to attack the nearest Undead enemy for a short time. ~can be 3 sec disorient~

    Conviction

    Passive Ability. While you maintain a Celestial Bond, your heals cannot be interrupted and you are able to heal while stunned. ~fun for pvp~

    Resilient Pages

    Passive Ability. While holding a Celestial Tome, if your Wisdom is higher than your enemy’s, there is a chance your Tome will reduce X% of incoming damage from that enemy’s attack.

    Celestial Focus

    Epic Skill. When you meditate, you will generate Celestial Power in addition to Mana.

    Tome of the Initiate

    You manifest a Celestial Tome to carry. As you start your journey, you will only be able to wield the power of the basic Tomes provided to Initiates of the Cleric Order. As you grow in level, your ability to manifest and wield more powerful Tomes will grow as well.

    Resurrect

    Brings a fallen ally back to life, restoring a portion of their lost experience. Causes Resurrection Sickness. Only usable out of combat.

    Plea of the Devout

    Bring a fallen ally back to life in the heat of battle. This ability does not cause Resurrection Sickness and will restore 80% of your ally’s Max Health and Mana. Usable in combat. ~has implication for arena based pvp~

    Celestial Aegis

    You manifest the Celestial Aegis for a limited duration. You can place this massive shield of light in the environment, or even carry it for short distances. While it lasts, it is an immovable object that no enemy will be able to pass through. ~cool for pvp~

    Awaken Bravery

    Dramatically increases the Maximum Health and Armor Class of an ally.

    Ethereal Armor

    You manifest celestial armor around an ally. This gift increases their Armor Class and can cause physical attacks against them to become Glancing Hits, dramatically reducing the incoming damage.

    Signet of Refreshing

    A powerful signet that improves the accumulation of your group’s unique combat resources for a short time.

    Edict of Stillness

    You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time, making them unresponsive to activity happening around them unless directly engaged.

    Edict of Peace

    A word of peace surrounds your ally, causing their activities to generate less Hate for the duration of the effect. ~can be used to take reduced damage in pvp~

    Light of Murik

    You whisper across the pages of your Tome, willing the Light of Murik to shine forth. This ability turns your Tome into a moderate light source. If used while you have a Celestial Bond, this ability turns your Tome into a supernatural light source, granting visibility in Atmospheres of supernatural darkness. (Requires Celestial Tome)

    Olamai's Blessing

    A fabled blessing known to purge powerful Curses. ~dispel magical cc?~

    Rebuke

    You release a torrent of celestial power into your enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability will cause Divine damage over time against Undeath.

    Revile Undeath

    You smite an Undead enemy with astonishing power, inflicting high damage and reducing their movement speed by X% for a short time.

    Melee Abilities

    Determined Strike

    You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom.

    Searing Cudgel

    A powerful melee attack that deals greater damage the longer you charge the attack before releasing. Undead targets will take additional Divine damage based on your Strength and Wisdom.

    Healing Abilities

    Celestial Light

    Heals your ally for a moderate amount. If your ally’s health is below 30%, this ability will manifest a celestial guard, increasing that ally’s Armor Class by X% of your Armor Class for Y seconds. If Light Shroud is active on your target, Celestial Light will refresh its duration.

    Burst of Life

    Swiftly heals your ally’s wounds for a high amount.

    Light Shroud

    Shroud your ally in restorative light, healing them over time for X duration. Only useable on one target at a time.

    Arcing Luminance

    Instantly restores a portion of your health, then jumps to two additional group members, healing X% more each jump. After the second group member is healed, you will be healed again for the same amount. The amount healed per jump will increase based on your Wisdom.

    Eko's Purifying Bolt

    You release a bolt of purifying light into an Undead enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability then jumps to heal your Defensive target for an amount equal to the damage dealt. The healing effect will attempt to cure Poisons and Diseases on the affected ally.

    Reckon's Shield

    Surrounds your target with protective light, reducing all incoming damage by X% for Y duration.

    Reckon's Barrier

    Clerics can evolve Reckon’s Shield into Reckon’s Barrier, dramatically increasing the amount of damage reduction. In addition, critical hits against your target while Reckon’s Barrier is active will heal the target for X% of the damage inflicted.

    Reithal's Luminous Shield

    A supernatural healing ability that heals your ally for an amount equal to your Max Health.

    Vigilance

    You mark a target group member for X duration. While marked, Y% of the damage taken by each member of your group will be converted into healing for the marked target. ~cool for pvp~

    Coalescence

    Matches your Health with the Health of your defensive target by either bringing your Defensive target’s Health up to your level, or bringing your Health up to the level of your Defensive target. ~cool for pvp~

     


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at January 19, 2019 9:38 AM PST
    • 239 posts
    January 12, 2019 10:12 AM PST

    I have seen more and more questions about PvP. To be honest I do not like PvP, and will always just steer clear of it. Played EQ for 10+ years and never killed another player. 

    From what I have seen this game will mainly be PvE, with maybe you can fight another player in certain areas like arenas. But I do not think they plan on making skills/gear for PvP based playing. I could be wrong, but I have seen very little talk about it, which leads me to believe it is not a major factor in the game design.

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 10:30 AM PST

    i agree that pvp should not be a mainstay of the game.  at the end of the day mmos cannot exist without a good pve backbone.  what i'm aiming for is a streamline source for pve to pvp.  in current state of mmos pvp and pve are 2 seperate entities which is a sad story.  in the early days of wow this state of streamline somewhat existed, however, it changed over time to be 2 seperate sources of gameplay.  i never understood this.

     

    for example:  your party is grinding at a certain location.  some guy comes along and messes up your rotation.  what are you going to do?  what can you do?  if you aren't allowed to do anything then what's the point of it being an mmo?  the game should just be a coop story game then.


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at January 12, 2019 10:31 AM PST
    • 27 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:02 AM PST

    They have talked about it before in a stream that there will be PvP servers from my understanding that will be the only way to PvP in the game is to be on one of those servers. but that could change. but they have said that the game is primarily PvE.

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:12 AM PST

    black desert online has a great idea of how pvp is handled in a pve enviroment.  i just don't like the idea of someone coming into a location i've or my party was at and not being able to do anything about it.  at that point what are my choices? in a pve enviroment i either deal with him trolling my rotation or i leave.  it's mostly about choice and perspective and there is no way you can account for all situations.  best thing to do?  either you flag up and kill him or he flags up and kills you.  what's the penality?  loss of time on both sides.  so what's the incentive of being on a pvp server?  now will it be where you can channel hop or characters are bound to that server?

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:31 AM PST

    Quambu said:

    They have talked about it before in a stream that there will be PvP servers from my understanding that will be the only way to PvP in the game is to be on one of those servers. but that could change. but they have said that the game is primarily PvE.

    appreciate the resource i'll look into it XD

    • 264 posts
    January 12, 2019 1:52 PM PST

    stellarmind said:

    black desert online has a great idea of how pvp is handled in a pve enviroment.  i just don't like the idea of someone coming into a location i've or my party was at and not being able to do anything about it.  at that point what are my choices? in a pve enviroment i either deal with him trolling my rotation or i leave.  it's mostly about choice and perspective and there is no way you can account for all situations.  best thing to do?  either you flag up and kill him or he flags up and kills you.  what's the penality?  loss of time on both sides.  so what's the incentive of being on a pvp server?  now will it be where you can channel hop or characters are bound to that server?

     

    So about the incentive of being on a pvp server...usually it's something that adds extra challenge/intrigue. For example I could never play on a PvE server in WoW because the mobs are too easy, I need enemy players that can actually kill me to keep things interesting. Most of the newer MMOs are like that, where it's almost impossible to die and theres no consequence for dying either. If an MMORPG has more challenging PvE I don't feel the need to be on a PvP server. That doesn't mean I won't roll alts on them since it can still be fun however when the game world is harsh the last thing I need is a player ambushing me on top of it. I dabbled on Rallos Zek in EQ and while I had fun it was just too much for me heh.

    • 25 posts
    January 12, 2019 1:59 PM PST

    With my experience in EQ1 and PvP was that until you got to max level with some raid gear you where a sitting duck so most people would level up on a PvE server and get their character in a reasonably compeditive state then move them over to a PvP server. 
    I don't think that's how they really want the game to function.

    Also, EQ1 had and Pantheon will have some nasty balance issues that will not make PvP a good option for most people.  I played on a PvP server in WoW and had a blast, but Bliz put a ton of focus on the balance of the characters which, in the end, ended up making the game kinda lame because each class stopped having their own unique flavor. 

    I don't plan on playing PvP in Pantheon.  Though I may /duel with people. I still remember the first time I was abler to kill my friend who played a monk with my cleric in EQ. haha He was shocked when it happened. 

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 2:05 PM PST

    Ziegfried said:

    stellarmind said:

    black desert online has a great idea of how pvp is handled in a pve enviroment.  i just don't like the idea of someone coming into a location i've or my party was at and not being able to do anything about it.  at that point what are my choices? in a pve enviroment i either deal with him trolling my rotation or i leave.  it's mostly about choice and perspective and there is no way you can account for all situations.  best thing to do?  either you flag up and kill him or he flags up and kills you.  what's the penality?  loss of time on both sides.  so what's the incentive of being on a pvp server?  now will it be where you can channel hop or characters are bound to that server?

     

    So about the incentive of being on a pvp server...usually it's something that adds extra challenge/intrigue. For example I could never play on a PvE server in WoW because the mobs are too easy, I need enemy players that can actually kill me to keep things interesting. Most of the newer MMOs are like that, where it's almost impossible to die and theres no consequence for dying either. If an MMORPG has more challenging PvE I don't feel the need to be on a PvP server. That doesn't mean I won't roll alts on them since it can still be fun however when the game world is harsh the last thing I need is a player ambushing me on top of it. I dabbled on Rallos Zek in EQ and while I had fun it was just too much for me heh.

    i'm not 100% on this, but from what i understand you can easily die in pve if accidently pull 2 or 3 additional mobs.  old school wow use to be this way.  well that's something also to think about.  i know they said the game isn't faction based, but you'll have affliations.  it's more or less a way to defend your spot if some yoohoo comes along and hinders your rotation. bdo has a pvp channel you can hop to for extra loot drop and doesn't penalize for pvp actions.  that being said we don't know yet if you can hop channels are there is some server locked system.  shoot i remember times on a pve server on wow in desolace where i would be grinding a spot and an alliance hunter to pull extra mobs, FD and chain the mobs on to me.  what could i do? just afk or leave the area.  shouldn't i be allowed to attack said player?


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at January 12, 2019 2:10 PM PST
    • 264 posts
    January 12, 2019 2:14 PM PST

    Old school WoW really wasn't that hard. I rolled a warrior on a PvP server in vanilla and I can't imagine playing on a PvE server even back then I would have gotten bored. Pulling 2 or 3 mobs I had plenty of tools even as a warrior to prevent dying... 1) hamstring 2) piercing howl 3) intimidating shout 4) macro shield swap, defensive stance + shieldwall 5) use a swiftness/healing potion. The mobs in WoW are leashed and it was incredibly easy to flee compared to EQ where you had to go to guards or a zone line. If Pantheon is anywhere near as easy as vanilla WoW I will probably be rolling on the PvP server.

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 2:17 PM PST

    macgregoroi said:

    With my experience in EQ1 and PvP was that until you got to max level with some raid gear you where a sitting duck so most people would level up on a PvE server and get their character in a reasonably compeditive state then move them over to a PvP server. 
    I don't think that's how they really want the game to function.

    Also, EQ1 had and Pantheon will have some nasty balance issues that will not make PvP a good option for most people.  I played on a PvP server in WoW and had a blast, but Bliz put a ton of focus on the balance of the characters which, in the end, ended up making the game kinda lame because each class stopped having their own unique flavor. 

    I don't plan on playing PvP in Pantheon.  Though I may /duel with people. I still remember the first time I was abler to kill my friend who played a monk with my cleric in EQ. haha He was shocked when it happened. 

    i agree that the primary focus should be pve.  there are fewer sucessful mmos that focus on pvp with supplemental pve.  i think pvp should be optional and supplemental to gameplay.  that's how wow was intitally and for the most part very enjoyable.  we know that pantheon isn't balanced in isolated 1v1 pve. highly skilled pvpers also knew that 1v1 matchups were rock paper scissors depending on the class, but that dynamic is offsetted with teamplay.

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 2:22 PM PST

    Ziegfried said:

    Old school WoW really wasn't that hard. I rolled a warrior on a PvP server in vanilla and I can't imagine playing on a PvE server even back then I would have gotten bored. Pulling 2 or 3 mobs I had plenty of tools even as a warrior to prevent dying... 1) hamstring 2) piercing howl 3) intimidating shout 4) macro shield swap, defensive stance + shieldwall 5) use a swiftness/healing potion. The mobs in WoW are leashed and it was incredibly easy to flee compared to EQ where you had to go to guards or a zone line. If Pantheon is anywhere near as easy as vanilla WoW I will probably be rolling on the PvP server.

    that shows mastery and knowledge of the game to do so and willingness to use external resources via free action potion etc etc.  this does 2 things: creates demand for said potions and inspires others to push the capabilities of the class.

    • 3237 posts
    January 12, 2019 2:23 PM PST

    I started an FAQ thread awhile ago that may be of interest to you, which can be found here:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8530/frequently-asked-questions

    It contains a bunch of popular topics that have a range of open/active threads where that topic (or related sub-topics) are already being discussed.  Here is the PVP excerpt:

     

    10)  Will I be able to PVP in Pantheon?

    FAQ Excerpt  ( 16.0 Will there be PvP? )

    "Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP shards we would launch with. That being said, we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard. It is also worth mentioning that when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience. As the game grows there could be additional variations of PvP shards and more attention paid to the unique gameplay mechanics associated with PvP."

    FAQ Excerpt  ( 16.1 Many games struggle to create unique classes because of the balancing issues that PvP creates. How do you prevent PvP from affecting PvE? )

    "The issue with balance and PvP vs PvE is not one that is that difficult to solve but it does require planning: you just use different formulas and data - you don't cross your streams. That way, if we need to make Paladins in PvE more powerful, we can do that without disrupting PvP balance. And vice versa."

    Aradune Blog Excerpt that touches on PVP (07/17/2017)  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/180/want-went-wrong-wo-w-wo-w-killers-or-a-general-lack-of-guts

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6005/pvp-players-ideas-for-meaningful-pvp ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7781/duel-another-player-on-pve ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7150/pv-p-in-pantheon ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6656/pantheon-pvp-forum ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4791/pv-p-open-or-faction-locked ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4395/the-ultimate-decision-pv-e-or-pv-p ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3970/pvp-and-guild-war-questions ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4381/arena-style-pv-p-spectator-mechanics ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4190/anyone-interested-in-pvp ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5371/pvp ;; (Closed)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5030/pv-p ;; (Closed)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4345/why-this-idea-of-different-servers-for-pvp-or-pve ;; (Closed)

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 2:25 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I started an FAQ thread awhile ago that may be of interest to you, which can be found here:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8530/frequently-asked-questions

    It contains a bunch of popular topics that have a range of open/active threads where that topic (or related sub-topics) are already being discussed.  Here is the PVP excerpt:

     

    10)  Will I be able to PVP in Pantheon?

    FAQ Excerpt  ( 16.0 Will there be PvP? )

    "Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP shards we would launch with. That being said, we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard. It is also worth mentioning that when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience. As the game grows there could be additional variations of PvP shards and more attention paid to the unique gameplay mechanics associated with PvP."

    FAQ Excerpt  ( 16.1 Many games struggle to create unique classes because of the balancing issues that PvP creates. How do you prevent PvP from affecting PvE? )

    "The issue with balance and PvP vs PvE is not one that is that difficult to solve but it does require planning: you just use different formulas and data - you don't cross your streams. That way, if we need to make Paladins in PvE more powerful, we can do that without disrupting PvP balance. And vice versa."

    Aradune Blog Excerpt that touches on PVP (07/17/2017)  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/180/want-went-wrong-wo-w-wo-w-killers-or-a-general-lack-of-guts

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6005/pvp-players-ideas-for-meaningful-pvp ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7781/duel-another-player-on-pve ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7150/pv-p-in-pantheon ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6656/pantheon-pvp-forum ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4791/pv-p-open-or-faction-locked ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4395/the-ultimate-decision-pv-e-or-pv-p ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3970/pvp-and-guild-war-questions ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4381/arena-style-pv-p-spectator-mechanics ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4190/anyone-interested-in-pvp ;; (Open)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5371/pvp ;; (Closed)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5030/pv-p ;; (Closed)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4345/why-this-idea-of-different-servers-for-pvp-or-pve ;; (Closed)

    thank you sir looking into it :D

    • 114 posts
    January 12, 2019 6:15 PM PST

    "from my memories most high end pve guilds were based on pvp servers because your pvpers were typically more adaptable and skilled due to the nature in which they play. "

     

    lol ... "my memories" as if that is anything but anecdotal.  then you follow it up with a hidden insult and your the one claiming having separate servers "alienates" the player base.

     

    hahaha ... that's rich.  

    • 560 posts
    January 12, 2019 6:34 PM PST

    So we have PVE Only players, PVP only players, and players that like to dabble in both. I might be out of line but I feel you will find a lot more PVP player that want to play with PVE player then the other way around. I wonder why that is?

    • 3852 posts
    January 12, 2019 7:29 PM PST

    The obvious way to have pvp on pve servers is to limit it to specified pvp zones. 

    That wouldn't bother me as a carebear - doesn't affect me, doesn't affect the NPCs I use. As long as I have no pve need to ever go there.

    Most pvp players wouldn't find such a limited scope to be satisfactory which is why there will be separate servers where they can murder each other to their hearts' content.

    Also with pvp on a pve server they couldn't try to balance classes for pvp at all without negatively affecting the core game whereas if they can make balance changes that *only* apply on a pvp server this isn't an issue.


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 12, 2019 7:30 PM PST
    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:01 PM PST

    valhalla said:

    "from my memories most high end pve guilds were based on pvp servers because your pvpers were typically more adaptable and skilled due to the nature in which they play. "

     

    lol ... "my memories" as if that is anything but anecdotal.  then you follow it up with a hidden insult and your the one claiming having separate servers "alienates" the player base.

     

    hahaha ... that's rich.  

     

    XD i mean it's real fuzzy classic wow is a long time ago.  and i don't mean to insult.  i'm saying that both pvers and pvpers learn alot from each other

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:03 PM PST

    starblight said:

    So we have PVE Only players, PVP only players, and players that like to dabble in both. I might be out of line but I feel you will find a lot more PVP player that want to play with PVE player then the other way around. I wonder why that is?

    exactly.  that's why i said that pve is first and formost.  i prefer to pvp, however, i enjoy pve with pvers. it tends to be more structure and they tend to have a game plan.

    • 1428 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:09 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    The obvious way to have pvp on pve servers is to limit it to specified pvp zones. 

    That wouldn't bother me as a carebear - doesn't affect me, doesn't affect the NPCs I use. As long as I have no pve need to ever go there.

    Most pvp players wouldn't find such a limited scope to be satisfactory which is why there will be separate servers where they can murder each other to their hearts' content.

    Also with pvp on a pve server they couldn't try to balance classes for pvp at all without negatively affecting the core game whereas if they can make balance changes that *only* apply on a pvp server this isn't an issue.

    pvp class balancing shouldn't be a thing until they've worked out the pve stuff.  there should be some incentive for entering a pvp zone on a pve server.  like getting and 5%exp buff or whatever to 1 hr.  so pvers have some reason to jump the zone.

    • 233 posts
    January 13, 2019 1:27 AM PST

    I hope pvp is there last focus.
    PVP is easy to make, balance the classes and the rest does itself, if you dont beleive look at warsong gulch in WOW, there couldnt be a simpler form of pvp and 15 years later people still love it.

    They should make sure the quests arent boring, that the world and cities and inns feel alive.

    PVP should be evervy MMOs last focus, in my opinion.

    • 3852 posts
    January 13, 2019 8:43 AM PST

    Grrrr 15 minutes on a long and clever reply and the power went out before I could hit "enter".

    If pvp doesn't impact pve very much but brings in or keeps enough players to significantly increase revenue it deserves to be more than the last focus. Though not near the top focus.

    • 1428 posts
    January 13, 2019 9:15 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    Grrrr 15 minutes on a long and clever reply and the power went out before I could hit "enter".

    If pvp doesn't impact pve very much but brings in or keeps enough players to significantly increase revenue it deserves to be more than the last focus. Though not near the top focus.

     

    pvp is better off being supplemental in mmos.  there are very few successful mmos that focus on pvp first and pve on the side.

    • 1033 posts
    January 16, 2019 9:03 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    Grrrr 15 minutes on a long and clever reply and the power went out before I could hit "enter".

    If pvp doesn't impact pve very much but brings in or keeps enough players to significantly increase revenue it deserves to be more than the last focus. Though not near the top focus.

     

    If significantly increasing revenue was the goal, Pantheon would not be what it is now. In my opinion any decisions that are based on "increasing revenue" in such a manner aren't compatible to the design direction of Pantheon. 

    They had many discussions on PvP early on and could have designed this game with many PvP systems from the start if that was their focus. They did not, and so any attempt to add PvP focus outside of their original design will be starting with a handicap and that isn't even getting into the arguments concerning PvE and PvP being compatible. 

    Regardless of how hard you try, PvP always ends up having an impact on PvE. I think the best approach is their current one. 

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 16, 2019 12:16 PM PST
    • 287 posts
    January 16, 2019 12:30 PM PST

    I typically play PvE on PvP servers because the added risk is more interesting.  However, I've also learned that if PvP is anything more than an afterthough then it will, every damn time, ruin the PvE game.

    PvE doesn't really need balance, at least not perfection, because players are only ever competing for placement on the damage meters.  But PvP has to be balanced, rebalanced and rebalanced again. Endlessly.  And they never get it right.  This constant screwing around with class balance means the PvEers are constantly screwed over, and over and over, in a futile attempt to balance a completely unrelated aspect of the game.  It isn't fun, not even for the PvPers.

    And then there is PvP gear. Even if the game doesn't have specific gear meant for PvE and for PvP there will be different gear sets that enhance or complement one or the other.  Then groups of players who are out to grief others will don their PvP gear and go harass PvEers, usually solo or duo players, who are wearing their PvE gear.  This puts the griefers at a huge advantage over the PvEer(s).  This is huge fun for the PvP player but a giant pain in the ass for the PvE player.

    I'm ok with VR putting up a PvP server or two akin to the Zeks in EQ but I'm against them spending any time at all caring about PvP balance.  Let the PvE game be all it can be.