Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Subscription Only & Public servers (incl trial accounts)

    • 127 posts
    January 23, 2019 4:07 AM PST

    starblight said:

    I have been following this thread and I still think whatever they do will work for me but I do see why people are concerned. But now for the reason I am posting again.

    What if current subscribers could hand out trials? If you handed out trials to people that caused problems they could revoke your ability to hand out more trials. This way if you had a friend that wanted to try the game they could play and have a true representation of the game social and all. It would not work for everyone as some people might not have any friends to invite them.

    Some type of referral system to handle trial accounts would be fine for me. As long as the number of active referrals is finite and the accounts are temporary. Otherwise people could create however many alt accounts they like and if for some reason they decide to abandon the game and want to cause some mischief they could have a whole bunch of backup accounts to do so.

    Question is, though, whether referrals would reach VR's target audience for the trials. Anyone who's on the fence about a purchase and who doesn't know anyone else who's already subscribed wouldn't be able to make use of it.

    • 1033 posts
    January 23, 2019 7:04 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    It's a simple fix make it to where trial accounts can only talk in say, tell fashion, that way they can still do harm but only in a tiny Area so easy pinpoint location or direct communication which will be easily tracked. And in terms of gold farmers and such make it to where the trial accounts can't initiate trading but the subcribtions players can open a trade with them, this solves two problems, one the player who is trading with them know they are doing so to get gold they got against the rules and can be punish as they see fit, and it will make it harder for the gold farmers to trade among the selves to put all the gold on one character in which they sell their gold on.  Also make it to where they can't use AH, has it would be heavily abused by them.

     

    You still run into the issue that the free acounts will eventually find a way to abuse the game and players that the developers did not forsee (ie emergent exploits).The accounts are free and they have infinte attempts without consequence to achieve an expoloit. Besides, if the argument is that having a separate server doesn't give an accurate representation of the game, does not putting in numerous controls such as that misrepresent things as well? 

    This also doesn't even begin to consider the issues with how the game will be a levels 1 - 10. It is almost certain that plat farmers, ecploiters, etc... will make the contested content a problem for players. I honestly don't see how the negative impact of this can be avoided, which means paying customers will have to endue the problems that come about from the FTP levels of the game. 

    Some have said that not allowing FTP trials to be on the same server may be a deterent, but have we considered how this will affect those who are paying? Remember that a good amount of the people who came to this game are people who can not stand FTP models, so would it not be detrimental to that relationship by essentially making the game FTP for the first 10 levels? I just see it as counter to why this game exists. 

    • 844 posts
    January 23, 2019 9:44 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    It's a simple fix make it to where trial accounts can only talk in say, tell fashion, that way they can still do harm but only in a tiny Area so easy pinpoint location or direct communication which will be easily tracked. And in terms of gold farmers and such make it to where the trial accounts can't initiate trading but the subcribtions players can open a trade with them, this solves two problems, one the player who is trading with them know they are doing so to get gold they got against the rules and can be punish as they see fit, and it will make it harder for the gold farmers to trade among the selves to put all the gold on one character in which they sell their gold on.  Also make it to where they can't use AH, has it would be heavily abused by them.

    This has been tried in the past and failed. Hacks were still made and used to exploit free trial accounts.

    My underlying issue is still that this is a huge waste of engineering time since free trials are no longer needed given the extensive amount of live streaming/viewing media out there.

    A potential player can easily get a good impression of the game from many venues that make the need for free trials extraneous.

    VR does not have the people hours to spend on this feature that will invariably result in grief.

    • 3237 posts
    January 23, 2019 9:52 AM PST

    zewtastic said:

    VR does not have the people hours to spend on this feature that will invariably result in grief.

    Offering a free trial has been part of their vision for a long time now.  Community onboarding has been emphasized quite a bit and in the end, I think the free trial will pay off big time.  It's important that new players have a chance to play the game with minimal inhibition, and that they are able to experience the important differentiators that make this kind of game special.  While it's true that we have seen issues with the free trial experience in other games, I think history is something that can be learned from.  I'm sure VR has a plan for how they will minimize the potential abuse that can stem from trial accounts without watering down the experience so badly that people wouldn't feel compelled to convert as a subscriber.  I have no doubt that VR can capture a "magical experience" in 10 levels.  A big part of that magic is having shared experiences with other players.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 23, 2019 9:56 AM PST
    • 31 posts
    January 23, 2019 9:52 AM PST

    zewtastic said:

    A potential player can easily get a good impression of the game from many venues that make the need for free trials extraneous.

    I'm a bit split on this, but do tend to lean in your direction of thinking. I can see were a hobbled start, such as max level 5, would be of interest to some. However, your point about other avenues is valid. Youtube reviews have become much more pervasive and extensive over the years. We are certainly not in the same world we lived during EverQuest and Dark Ages of Camelot releases. So, from my perspective I am with the perspective that a trial account would not be necessary if it requires additional dev time.

    I am not overly concerned though. MMO's being what they are, I'm already expecting farmers to be there at launch.

    • 411 posts
    January 23, 2019 10:17 AM PST

    zewtastic said:

    This has been tried in the past and failed. Hacks were still made and used to exploit free trial accounts.

    My underlying issue is still that this is a huge waste of engineering time since free trials are no longer needed given the extensive amount of live streaming/viewing media out there.

    A potential player can easily get a good impression of the game from many venues that make the need for free trials extraneous.

    VR does not have the people hours to spend on this feature that will invariably result in grief.

    I'm not sure that one can get a good impression of this game from watching gameplay videos or live streaming. I've seen many games streamed and MMOs are pretty terrible to watch because you can't visually tell what the player is doing nearly as well as you can in other game types. Watching a video or stream of EQ is positively mind numbing, but playing it is still really fun for reasons that don't come across in video (for me).

    If I hadn't played EQ (and other similar games), then I don't think there's any form of media that would make me want to play Pantheon other than word of mouth or trying it.

    That said, I think free trials are really quite problematic and I wouldn't want to be the one making the choice of whether or not they're worth the grief. If I had to take a crack at restrictions I would think they would have to be no-trade and only be able to talk in group chat and tells, but only tells to people who have contacted you first.

     


    This post was edited by Ainadak at January 23, 2019 10:19 AM PST
    • 793 posts
    January 23, 2019 11:02 AM PST

    Are we making more of this than it should be?

    For starter, most every "free trial" of a subscription game I have done, has always required registering a credit card, which begins auto-charging upon trial ending, and leaving it up to the user to cancel if they choose not to continue.

    Most that have NO interest in continuing to play, usually would not go theough the hassle. I know there have been games I backed out of even trying after they required my CC#, and I knew it was a very small chance I would continue in the game.

    And isn't it rather Elitist to say, "you are a trial player, you are relegated to this second rate experience."

     

     

     

     

     

    • 3237 posts
    January 23, 2019 11:11 AM PST

    VR could create a "trial area" (We'll call it the "Onboarding Zone") in the world that could serve as a meaningful point of interest for subscribed players.  I would propose the following:

    The onboarding zone would exist on every server, but at any given point in time, the "free trial offer" is only available for specific servers determined by VR based on the population trends they observe.  The free trial offer would be an "event" of sorts, and managed by in-game guides.  The guides would be encouraged to help with the onboarding process and that would include answering questions, offering to group, and otherwise being representative of the type of helpful community member that we would want handling this very important role.  Since the onboarding zone is considered a meaningful PoI in the world, there should also be a healthy amount of subscribed players that frequent the zone.  VR has mentioned in the past that they want to create an incentive for players to mentor.  Whatever that incentive is, it could be amplified during this event, and for this zone only.  Beyond that, guides could also be given X amount of "tokens" that they could reward to outstanding community members per day.  Ideally these tokens wouldn't have any sort of impact on player power or progress but they could still end up being fun or meaningful.

    By doing all of the above I think we would be improving the onboarding experience.  Guides would be present which means they could handle gold-seller spam or other types of abuse.  Subscribed players would be present for a variety of reasons.  The zone could have a semi-meaningful faction that encourages players to spend some time there.  Knowing that the mentor bonus would be amplified during the event, players would have even more of a reason to participate in the onboarding process.  Those who go above and beyond in this regard might earn the attention of one of the guides and that could end up yielding a fun trinket or consumable.  Since these events only take place for a limited time, and are rotated between servers as needed, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that a range of players would come pay a visit.  Even as a hardcore player I could see myself spending some time in the zone whenever my server is eligible for the event.  The guides could call this event "The Collision"  --  as players we would know that our server is looking to add some folks to the community and it's up to us to recruit them.  I think this could be a lot of fun.

    As far as restrictions go I think it would make sense for VR to require a credit card on file to create a trial account.  Credit card information can be saved and when an abusive account is flagged, so too would their CC info.  Trolls/Griefers/Spammers/Gold-Sellers wouldn't have "infinite lives" to do their bidding because of this barrier to entry.  Beyond that, I also think it would make sense to limit trial accounts to the onboarding zone exclusively until they upgrade to subscriber.  I would remove their ability to send private messages to any player outside of the zone.  No mail boxes in the area.  Trade wouldn't be restricted but VR could track any trades that are conducted and if they see something out of the ordinary they could investigate.  We shouldn't assume the worst with all people but it does make sense to be mindful of how these trial accounts are being used and to respond as necessary.

    Beyond all that, the zone would be designed from the ground up to offer an "onboarding experience."  There would be quests, NPC's, merchants, named NPC's, etc.  The first 5 levels would mostly be solo content but it would gradually get harder to the point where you need a small group, and eventually a large group for certain mobs.  I think it would be fine if the trial accounts group together but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have subscribed players hanging out and helping with the onboarding process.  I think this can be achieved.  Players crave live events and I think it's reasonable that a healthy amount of players would spend some time in the onboarding zone, and assist with the process, whenever their server is eligible for the event.  It would be a controlled environment (with a reasonable barrier to entry) with an active guide presence which should alleviate the amount of evildoers that would otherwise be wreaking havoc.

    Since these events would be scheduled, trial accounts would have a limited amount of time to make their decision on whether or not they want to upgrade.  I think a week long event would be plenty of time for people to get in there and reach level 10.  If people start their trial on the last day or two of the event they should know ahead of time when it's going to end.  Once it's over, players would then have a 24 hour window where they can upgrade their account.  Once upgraded their character would be transferred to the appropriate starter city based on their race.  They would retain any progress made during the trial account.  If someone does not subscribe within that window then their character would be lost.  They would always have the option to create a new character when the next trial event starts, even though it would likely be on a different server.

    There is no reason we couldn't make the onboarding experience for trial accounts a fun and memorable event that subscribed players actually want to to participate in.  We shouldn't be looking at them as second class citizens.  We should be looking at them as people we want to subscribe to the game.  We're trying to bring the "magic" back to the genre and it isn't going to happen on it's own.  Every new subscription is a shared achievement for all of us.  It shows that there is a demand for this kind of game and hopefully other development teams would take notice and start trending their design philosophies more toward the important values that really matter.  The community I have seen here in Pantheon is second to none.  We shouldn't try to make trial accounts "interaction proof."  The more restrictions you put on them the less authentic their experience will be.  Why would someone subscribe to a community based game if they feel weighed down by 100 layers of restrictions that won't allow them to interact with people?  A free trial experience would probably do more harm than good if people feel like they are surrounded in bubble wrap and isolated from the world they are supposed to be enjoying.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 25, 2019 6:22 PM PST
    • 1584 posts
    January 23, 2019 11:27 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    zewtastic said:

    VR does not have the people hours to spend on this feature that will invariably result in grief.

    Offering a free trial has been part of their vision for a long time now.  Community onboarding has been emphasized quite a bit and in the end, I think the free trial will pay off big time.  It's important that new players have a chance to play the game with minimal inhibition, and that they are able to experience the important differentiators that make this kind of game special.  While it's true that we have seen issues with the free trial experience in other games, I think history is something that can be learned from.  I'm sure VR has a plan for how they will minimize the potential abuse that can stem from trial accounts without watering down the experience so badly that people wouldn't feel compelled to convert as a subscriber.  I have no doubt that VR can capture a "magical experience" in 10 levels.  A big part of that magic is having shared experiences with other players.

    To be honest with you 1AD7 I believe in somerhing that is such a big deal as gold sellers/buyers and exploiters and such need to be dealt with harshly, for one we know that the seller isn't really the problem it's the buyers, becuase selling gold doesn't mean ajything if no one is buying so if you punish the buyers severely than other people will not want to do it not becuase they don't want to, but becuase they don't  want to be caught, and I'm talking about perma bans, 3 month bans, things that truly hurt and knowing of they did things legitly they would of one gained more money and have a better character in general, and no this isn't something that should scare people from playing the game, unless if you are a cheater, so saying that being harsh on something that break eula is not worth it than your basically saying that you can keep breaking the rules becuase the rules don't matter.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at January 23, 2019 11:28 AM PST
    • 2752 posts
    January 23, 2019 11:35 AM PST

    Honestly, what would be the problem with trial accounts on normal servers?

     

    Restricted to /say but can respond to /tells. Maybe some sort of trial chat channel that subscribers could opt into if they wanted to give advise.

    Cannot send group invites but can accept them and then chat in /group. Can use LFG UI. 

    Cannot form or join guilds.

    No access to mail, trading, or AH/Marketboard/Whatever

    Limited to a low currency cap (like 5-10 gold). 

    Level Cap

    Possibly zone restricted.

     

    • 411 posts
    January 23, 2019 11:52 AM PST

    @Iksar - While I think your suggested approach or a variant on that theme would probably be the best choice here, the disagreement comes from VR. The OP quotes VR's stance on their trial accounts saying they should have "a minimum of impediments". It's subjective, but all the restrictions that we would want to prevent griefing doesn't really jive with that goal.

    • 2752 posts
    January 23, 2019 12:23 PM PST

    A minimum of impediments is indeed extremely subjective wording and I don't think that means it doesn't jive with the restrictions I suggested above or some others have mentioned. Personally I see the above as minimally impeding since they don't really interefere with the core gameplay and getting a feel for how the game handles/works and what it is all about. 

    • 696 posts
    January 23, 2019 12:44 PM PST

    Well, I think one if the biggest downfalls when it comes to getting people in the game is if they can play with you. If servers are seperate from trial accounts, then it will be a huge negative, imo, from easing people into the game. Especially people who come from modern mmos and want to integrate. We talked about this a few years ago and one of the most talked about topic was getting newer players, who are conditioned for insta gratification type of games, to like this game. One of the main ways that was brought up a lot was veteran players helping new players out, by teaching them the ropes and on where to go etc. This is what the mentor system is for. If this is a game that relies on community heavily, which MMOs should, then fragmenting the community isn't a good idea.

     

    One of the most talked about memories from a lot of us was seeing some decked out high level running by and going " I want to be that in the future." In fact, a lot of people played the game more because of seeing veterans who are higher level. 

    If I am a trial account and go into a trial only server where there are people that are only checking out the game and see only other people checking out the game, and gold spammers, then you will get a lot of people not buying the game if the first impression is that. I don't agree with trial accounts in the first place, but if you are going to have them, then they will have to commit to getting the gold spammers under control, and exploiters, while at the same time exposing these new players to the core community. It is a tough undertaking, but that is the way it should go.

    • 127 posts
    January 23, 2019 2:49 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Honestly, what would be the problem with trial accounts on normal servers?

     

    Restricted to /say but can respond to /tells. Maybe some sort of trial chat channel that subscribers could opt into if they wanted to give advise.

    Cannot send group invites but can accept them and then chat in /group. Can use LFG UI. 

    Cannot form or join guilds.

    No access to mail, trading, or AH/Marketboard/Whatever

    Limited to a low currency cap (like 5-10 gold). 

    Level Cap

    Possibly zone restricted.

     

    Those do seem fairly restrictive in my opinion, but let's say that those measures are put in place and the problem of gold seller spam is pretty much dealt with (which I wouldn't be unhappy with).

    People will still find ways to abuse alt accounts to get away with things that are unacceptable.

    For instance, players Bobby and Joey hate each others guts for whatever reason. Joey spots Bobby close to a town with NPC's from a faction he knows will KOS Bobby. So he creates a trial account on a virtual machine that can't be traced back to him, makes a level 1 wizard, runs towards where Bobby is, attacks one of those NPC's from range with a spell and trains them onto Bobby, where he dies. And so does Bobby, taking whatever the penalty for death is.

    Another example. Johnny thinks Pantheon is a shitty game and that roleplaying is for stupid nerds, so he decides it'll be funny to go and troll some of them. He creates and signs on a trial account, creates an ogre with the most ridiculous customized face the game allows and chooses the name 'Happyboi' (or whatever he can get away with through the name filter). He then looks around to find the nearest collection of people RPing together, where he will strip naked and /dance in front of their faces, proclaiming in /say that he's a celebrity from Goldshire Inn and repeatedly request to give him 'moneyz' for his service. Everyone reports him and after 10 minutes a GM comes along to ask Joey's side of the story, which is a load of bull so the trial account gets banned. Then Johnny repeats the process, rolling a dwarf this time, to ruin the immersion and waste time for a different group of players.

    These aren't abuses that are easily avoided with basic limitations. The only certain way to stop this type of behavior is to allow players to completely avoid servers or zones where trial accounts can bother them. And if starting cities are among the places where trial accounts can go, that's a problem in itself.

    • 696 posts
    January 23, 2019 2:56 PM PST

    ^Then why not make a trial island or something that is attached to the server and can be teleported to, but the trial accounts have a flag that they can't be teleported off the island. Still allows people to be on the same server as friends who are veterans and allows interaction among the core community to the trial accounts. I doubt there will be a global chat, and if there is then restrict trial accounts from using it.

    • 127 posts
    January 23, 2019 3:05 PM PST

    Watemper said:

    ^Then why not make a trial island or something that is attached to the server and can be teleported to, but the trial accounts have a flag that they can't be teleported off the island. Still allows people to be on the same server as friends who are veterans and allows interaction among the core community to the trial accounts. I doubt there will be a global chat, and if there is then restrict trial accounts from using it.

    Yes, that could possibly get the job done. It may be a challenge to create a logical explanation why such a place exists and why characters of all races congregate there (naming it a prison colony might come off as insulting... lol) and the creation of the zone itself might also be a lot of work that could potentially be put to other projects, but I'd personally find it a favorable solution because it could really keep the abuse in check. Even if I don't think it'd qualify as a minimal impediment.

    • 470 posts
    January 23, 2019 3:20 PM PST

    starblight said:

    I assume they have a good plan on how to implement trials as many games before have had to deal with the same issues. It had some down sides but the trial island in Vanguard I felt worked well. If your suggested solution was chosen I would likely pick a subscription only server.

    I'm hoping so. The past issues with trial accounts are clear and should be well-documented at this point. So having a clear plan for implimentation should already be at least loosley laid out. I know a lot of limitations were put on these with chat and mail restriction in other MMOs simply due to how badly they were abused by gold sellers and power leveling services that spammed people in tells and open chat to no end. Aion even had a nice little mechanic where you could set up as a store to sell pretty much anywhere at one point and add a little message that would auto repeat periodically. It wasn't long before that neat little concept became an incredible annoyance as gold spam sellers were set up in multiple areas all over the game world. It was hard to gert away from them. So if there's an option for a free account, best believe these companies are already working out ways to exploit it.

    It goes back to that old saying "this is why we can't have nice things".


    This post was edited by Kratuk at January 23, 2019 3:21 PM PST
    • 696 posts
    January 23, 2019 3:33 PM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Watemper said:

    ^Then why not make a trial island or something that is attached to the server and can be teleported to, but the trial accounts have a flag that they can't be teleported off the island. Still allows people to be on the same server as friends who are veterans and allows interaction among the core community to the trial accounts. I doubt there will be a global chat, and if there is then restrict trial accounts from using it.

    Yes, that could possibly get the job done. It may be a challenge to create a logical explanation why such a place exists and why characters of all races congregate there (naming it a prison colony might come off as insulting... lol) and the creation of the zone itself might also be a lot of work that could potentially be put to other projects, but I'd personally find it a favorable solution because it could really keep the abuse in check. Even if I don't think it'd qualify as a minimal impediment.

    As long as there is magic and gods/dieties you can have an infinite amount of lore to back it up.

    • 2752 posts
    January 23, 2019 4:26 PM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Those do seem fairly restrictive in my opinion, but let's say that those measures are put in place and the problem of gold seller spam is pretty much dealt with (which I wouldn't be unhappy with).

    People will still find ways to abuse alt accounts to get away with things that are unacceptable.

    They are mostly the exact restrictions FFXIV has on trials and trials have worked wonders for them in terms of getting new players onboard while at the same time severly hampering spammers/sellers. I did the trial and never felt particularly restricted, especially since friends could still add you to their friends list allowing open lines of /tell with them. 

    As for the other stuff...they seem like rather fringe cases "what if" situations (especially if trials are zone restricted). I think people would find they have far more issues with other subscribed players messing with them than they ever would trial accounts. 

     

    • 35 posts
    January 23, 2019 4:28 PM PST

    I think free trials are a great thing to have. I got into FFXIV for quite a while despite being on the fence about it at first and I can honestly say that I'm not sure that I would have done it if it were not for the 14 day free trial that was available.

     

    Purchasing games is extremely expensive for a lot of people and it can be especially daunting to purchase a game that requires a sub without really knowing if you will enjoy it or not.

     

    On top of all this I don't think I've played an MMO with a more welcoming community than FFXIV besides maybe EQ which I'm much newer to.

    • 1714 posts
    January 23, 2019 5:32 PM PST

    Fulton said:

    Are we making more of this than it should be?

     

    Yes, as always. 

    • 31 posts
    January 23, 2019 5:44 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Fulton said:

    Are we making more of this than it should be?

     

    Yes, as always. 

    Where is the Like button?

    • 844 posts
    January 24, 2019 9:15 AM PST

    Anything that steals away precious content creation and development resources is a big deal for this MMO.

    • 556 posts
    January 25, 2019 10:45 AM PST

    Trials, in my opinion at least, will have access to the entire game up to say lvl 10. The restrictions should be no /tell or zone/server chat and no ability to use the ah or trade with anyone. That keeps out the spammers and gold sellers but allows them to play the game fully to trial it.

    • 1714 posts
    January 25, 2019 12:01 PM PST

    Yet again we are coming up with a lot of solutions that throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's tremendous upside in having trial players in_the_world with everyone else. People will be demoing the game, period, not some separate trial server. If they make friends during their trial, that's it, they're together in that world.