Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Subscription Only & Public servers (incl trial accounts)

    • 1033 posts
    January 20, 2019 5:24 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    zewtastic said:

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

    back in the day when the only way to experience a game was by buying it, you might make more sense.

    Today if you want to see what a game is about before buying it there are a vast amount of ways to educate yourself. Streaming, youtube, fansites, in-depth reviews, etc.

    Trial accounts are NOT needed, and will in some manner simply end up being a horrible source of grief and exploitation.

    Luckily for us all, VR disagrees. They are heavily invested in making a great on-boarding experience. As their FAQ clearly states:

    “Yes, a new player will be able to download and play Pantheon to a certain level for free, with a minimum of impediments. It's important to us that players, especially those who might not be familiar with classically-spirited MMOs, be given a chance to acclimate and truly enjoy the game. That said, some restrictions on these free characters may have to be made in order to avoid them being used by farmers, griefers, etc.“

    So, although you may disagree, it’s happening.

     

    That says nothing about whether the players will be on a FTP trial server or on a subscription server. 

     

    Sounds like both of us may be happy at the result right? You get your trial server that caters to new players, and we get subscription servers separate from that environment. 

     

    That is a win/win right? 

    • 1618 posts
    January 20, 2019 5:33 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    Beefcake said:

    zewtastic said:

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

    back in the day when the only way to experience a game was by buying it, you might make more sense.

    Today if you want to see what a game is about before buying it there are a vast amount of ways to educate yourself. Streaming, youtube, fansites, in-depth reviews, etc.

    Trial accounts are NOT needed, and will in some manner simply end up being a horrible source of grief and exploitation.

    Luckily for us all, VR disagrees. They are heavily invested in making a great on-boarding experience. As their FAQ clearly states:

    “Yes, a new player will be able to download and play Pantheon to a certain level for free, with a minimum of impediments. It's important to us that players, especially those who might not be familiar with classically-spirited MMOs, be given a chance to acclimate and truly enjoy the game. That said, some restrictions on these free characters may have to be made in order to avoid them being used by farmers, griefers, etc.“

    So, although you may disagree, it’s happening.

     

    That says nothing about whether the players will be on a FTP trial server or on a subscription server. 

     

    Sounds like both of us may be happy at the result right? You get your trial server that caters to new players, and we get subscription servers separate from that environment. 

     

    That is a win/win right? 

    Apparently, you do not understand the definition of MINIMUM OF IMPEDIMENTS. Banning all trial accounts to a separate server away from their friends, is definitely more than a minimum of impediments. Of course, if you would just listen to what VR has already said, this argument would be moot.

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 7:30 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    Beefcake said:

    zewtastic said:

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

    back in the day when the only way to experience a game was by buying it, you might make more sense.

    Today if you want to see what a game is about before buying it there are a vast amount of ways to educate yourself. Streaming, youtube, fansites, in-depth reviews, etc.

    Trial accounts are NOT needed, and will in some manner simply end up being a horrible source of grief and exploitation.

    Luckily for us all, VR disagrees. They are heavily invested in making a great on-boarding experience. As their FAQ clearly states:

    “Yes, a new player will be able to download and play Pantheon to a certain level for free, with a minimum of impediments. It's important to us that players, especially those who might not be familiar with classically-spirited MMOs, be given a chance to acclimate and truly enjoy the game. That said, some restrictions on these free characters may have to be made in order to avoid them being used by farmers, griefers, etc.“

    So, although you may disagree, it’s happening.

     

    That says nothing about whether the players will be on a FTP trial server or on a subscription server. 

     

    Sounds like both of us may be happy at the result right? You get your trial server that caters to new players, and we get subscription servers separate from that environment. 

     

    That is a win/win right? 

    Apparently, you do not understand the definition of MINIMUM OF IMPEDIMENTS. Banning all trial accounts to a separate server away from their friends, is definitely more than a minimum of impediments. Of course, if you would just listen to what VR has already said, this argument would be moot.

     

    That phrase does not establish your case. In fact, you are injecting subjective interpretation to its meaning. Minimum of impediments can very clearly mean a separate server that they eventually transfer from. The problem is, you are making up your own meanings as you see fit, then establishing it as law. 


    I would be careful to admonish others on critical reading skills when you yourself lack them. 


     

     

     

     

    • 3852 posts
    January 21, 2019 7:42 AM PST

    Maybe we can go back to merely disagreeing with each other and not insulting each other?

    Minimum of impediments is a phrase that is so highly subjective that it lends itself to many interpretations. 

    One can easily argue that a separate server with no currency limits or chat limits or any other limits (other than a time limit or level limit presumably) is a minimum of impediments especially if the character can then be transferred freely to a normal server. This gives, one can argue, far more of a feel of the game than starting on a normal server with restrictions on access to chat, currency, guilds, or whatever else VR would see fit to impose to discourage goldsellers and to make the playing experience so limited that people will want to subscribe just to get rid of the accursed limitations.

    On the other hand one can argue that merely being on a "separate but equal" server is more than a minimum impediment. Proof being that Tanix *has* argued it.

    Neither position reflects irrationality, stupidity or poor reading skills.

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 8:02 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    Maybe we can go back to merely disagreeing with each other and not insulting each other?

    Minimum of impediments is a phrase that is so highly subjective that it lends itself to many interpretations. 

    One can easily argue that a separate server with no currency limits or chat limits or any other limits (other than a time limit or level limit presumably) is a minimum of impediments especially if the character can then be transferred freely to a normal server. This gives, one can argue, far more of a feel of the game than starting on a normal server with restrictions on access to chat, currency, guilds, or whatever else VR would see fit to impose to discourage goldsellers and to make the playing experience so limited that people will want to subscribe just to get rid of the accursed limitations.

    On the other hand one can argue that merely being on a "separate but equal" server is more than a minimum impediment. Proof being that Tanix *has* argued it.

    Neither position reflects irrationality, stupidity or poor reading skills.

     

    The irrationality of the position is to claim a subjective position is the only valid one. That was my contention with Beefcake and I am not one to take it on the chin when people swing at me, hence my less than kind reply. 

    • 844 posts
    January 21, 2019 9:52 AM PST

    Considering that as far as I am aware, none of VR staff making these decisions have worked on modern MMOs the likes of AA or BDO, both of which employed using various types of free trial starts. Both of which had disasterous impacts on players via hacking, griefing, cheating, exploiting.

    But, without seeing internal details on the financial success of this practise, it's hard to say whether dealing with the negative and potentially image marring result has been worth it.

    Both AA and BDO were 100% FTP/P2W money grabs, so the underlying business models differ from what VR is advertising.

    Back before there was the luxury of watching live streams of games, dropping $60 on a pay and pray game was painful. Especially when you only ended up playing maybe 4 hours.

    I just don't see the need of spending code time on making a mechanic to allow 10 levels of free play anymore.

    And I see it creating more problems than it's benefit.

     

    If they do, do it. I would prefer to not see these free trial players in the proper world. Maybe create a separate play world for them. There's nothing that says they have to be in the game with actual paying customers.

    • 127 posts
    January 21, 2019 10:33 AM PST

    Guys, there's no point in arguing whether subscribers playing alongside trial accounts or trial accounts playing on an isolated server is superior. The latter is not going to happen, because it's not a mimimal impediment by any stretch of the imagination and so it doesn't match the goals VR has in mind for their trials.

    Giving subscribers the choice to play on subscription-only servers still allows trial players to mingle with subscribers who don't mind the possible drawbacks as much, so it is at least a possibility VR might still want to consider. Along with certain limits to chat, trades, inventory and possibly access to different zones, public servers could still provide an acceptable experience for enough subscribed players so that spammers and trolls don't dominate the server.

    Of course keeping staff on the job of investigating reports related to trial accounts and banning them will likely be quite costly, but that's not really our problem. If VR decides they can't or don't want to deal with it (anymore), or that trials have run their course (not enough people using it for the intended purpose anymore) and they want to invest their resources elsewhere, it's up to them to decide how to deal with it. That's a business decision and I don't think VR is all that interested in hearing what our take on it is.

    • 2752 posts
    January 21, 2019 10:49 AM PST

    FFXIV has a robust free trial and I can't remember any issues with trial accounts/players there, and as far as I can tell it has done a great job at converting trials to purchases & subscriptions. 

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 11:15 AM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Guys, there's no point in arguing whether subscribers playing alongside trial accounts or trial accounts playing on an isolated server is superior. The latter is not going to happen, because it's not a mimimal impediment by any stretch of the imagination and so it doesn't match the goals VR has in mind for their trials.

    Actually, there is a very valid point in discussing such as is evident by the facts presented concerning the process. The fact that VR is making a decision on one way or another does not change these facts. Also, you are again claiming it is not a minimal impediment. A player can start on a trial server, experience the game and once they choose to subscribe, be copied to a production server. That is not a "major impeditment" by any reasonable means I can see. They still get to experience the game, they still get to play with others, and in this example, they are able to keep their progression. That is not major unless you are stretching "reasonable" to levels of absurdity. 

     

    Kaeldorn said:

    Giving subscribers the choice to play on subscription-only servers still allows trial players to mingle with subscribers who don't mind the possible drawbacks as much, so it is at least a possibility VR might still want to consider. Along with certain limits to chat, trades, inventory and possibly access to different zones, public servers could still provide an acceptable experience for enough subscribed players so that spammers and trolls don't dominate the server.

    This in my opinion is the only reasonable option VR has as to force subscribing players to be subject to the problems FTP has, even if it is only for levels 1-10, is in my opinon some what of a deal breaker mainly because it will be extremely difficult to keep the FTP from abusing the game as opposed to keeping them separate. 

     

    Kaeldorn said:

    Of course keeping staff on the job of investigating reports related to trial accounts and banning them will likely be quite costly, but that's not really our problem. If VR decides they can't or don't want to deal with it (anymore), or that trials have run their course (not enough people using it for the intended purpose anymore) and they want to invest their resources elsewhere, it's up to them to decide how to deal with it. That's a business decision and I don't think VR is all that interested in hearing what our take on it is.

     

    Which is then back loading cost to support staff rather than using technology to stifle the abuses (something they already said they will lack in). It is all a trade off obviously, but I find the desire to impede or disrupte paying customers to accomodate non-paying "potential" ones to be an extremely poor business decision. It is chasing "what might be" while ignoring "what is" and the fallout to such may end up costing dearly to the most important key to this game, retaining players. Due to Pantheons design and niche approach, they NEED to retain players as they can not apply the FTP model of sucker and dump to which most modern MMO companies apply. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 21, 2019 11:17 AM PST
    • 303 posts
    January 21, 2019 11:27 AM PST

    If being on the same server as a trial account is such a negative thing then how can the solution be to put trial accounts on a server with only other trial accounts? The purpose of the trial is to gain a new subscriber but how will they get a feel for the game if all they see is a bunch of random people who also have no idea and have a bunch of restrictions? That kind of trial probably won'tbe very effective.

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 11:27 AM PST

    zewtastic said:

    Back before there was the luxury of watching live streams of games, dropping $60 on a pay and pray game was painful. Especially when you only ended up playing maybe 4 hours.

    I just don't see the need of spending code time on making a mechanic to allow 10 levels of free play anymore.

    And I see it creating more problems than it's benefit.

     

    Agreed. Since Youtube long plays, and various other means of gaining information, it is more than a reasonable amount of information to provide a decision. 

     

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 11:33 AM PST

    Spluffen said:

    If being on the same server as a trial account is such a negative thing then how can the solution be to put trial accounts on a server with only other trial accounts? The purpose of the trial is to gain a new subscriber but how will they get a feel for the game if all they see is a bunch of random people who also have no idea and have a bunch of restrictions? That kind of trial probably won'tbe very effective.

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything, then doesn't that defeat the concept of this game? Does it not put up a false premise as to what type of player this game is seeking?

    Fact is, a trial server with only trial accounts will be no different in that basic concept. New players will explore, find other people exploring and there will be varying level of knowledge concering that (ie people of level 1-10 will be available so that level 1's will still have information sources). 

    The main difference is that the trial server will ALSO have spamers/gold sellers, numerous random griefers (with nothing to lose), etc... 

     

    The subscription servers "may" have such, but they will have to PAY to do it and risk being banned, losing money in the process (a deterrent). 

     

     

    • 303 posts
    January 21, 2019 11:56 AM PST

    Tanix said:

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    Answers are: "Like any other game." and "Yes." respectively.

    Tanix said:

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything

    It is not. Since the rest of the post is based on that assumption I will skip it.

     

    I asked the original questions after asking myself if I would like such a trial and if I was to recommend the game to my friends, would I like that to be their first impressions. I won't elaborate now, maybe I will do it later. I will note that whatever is follows in my mind won't necessarily be magically transferred to others over a short post.

     

     

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 12:03 PM PST

    Spluffen said:

    Tanix said:

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    Answers are: "Like any other game." and "Yes." respectively.

    Tanix said:

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything

    It is not. Since the rest of the post is based on that assumption I will skip it.

     

    I asked the original questions after asking myself if I would like such a trial and if I was to recommend the game to my friends, would I like that to be their first impressions. I won't elaborate now, maybe I will do it later. I will note that whatever is follows in my mind won't necessarily be magically transferred to others over a short post.

     

     

     

    No worries, my question was not to entrap you, obviously some elements of this discussion are highly subjective, I was just trying to find purchase into your realm of thinking, so don't feel as if you are at a stake and the flames are begining to rise. /chuckle

    • 1618 posts
    January 21, 2019 1:50 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything, then doesn't that defeat the concept of this game? Does it not put up a false premise as to what type of player this game is seeking?

    Fact is, a trial server with only trial accounts will be no different in that basic concept. New players will explore, find other people exploring and there will be varying level of knowledge concering that (ie people of level 1-10 will be available so that level 1's will still have information sources). 

    I think the main flaw in your reasoning here is the presumption on who tends to use free trials, outside of intentional spammers/griefers. People that are already willing to subscribe and intend to play are not the intended audience for free trials. They are intended for people that are not necessarily used to/experienced with this type of classic MMO. 

    IF VR lives ups to its promises/hype, the game will be substantially different than the modern MMOs that they are playing now (assuming they are even playing MMOs). Therefore, free trials are good for players with little classic MMO experience. 

    Free trials are not about handouts and showing them everything, as you claim. 

    I know that I have some work ahead of me, getting my friends into this game after their bad experiences with modern MMOs. Pantheon is supposed to be a community game. They are going to want to play together, especially with my family. They are not going to want to be handed a trial key and told, go play with random people. You cannot play with me until you pay $60.

    A new game experience is much better with friends than with strangers. This goes for launch also. I don’t think that I am going out on a limb by stating that most players at launch will be playing and learning the game with existing friends. Some of those friends will be dedicated fanatics with pre-paid subscriptions. Others will be friends on trial accounts, trying to determine if the game is for them.

    OneADSeven had a good idea last night, requiring credit cards on file for free trials, similar to what many online services, such as Netflix, Hulu, etc. That will minimize the bad behavior accounts, since a card number is upfront and can be banned. Limiting some chat channels on trials helps minimize abuses. Limiting banking/broker privileges can also eliminate abuses. These are the type of minimum impediments that solve most abuses, while allowing the players to engage with the full game/community.

     

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 2:07 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything, then doesn't that defeat the concept of this game? Does it not put up a false premise as to what type of player this game is seeking?

    Fact is, a trial server with only trial accounts will be no different in that basic concept. New players will explore, find other people exploring and there will be varying level of knowledge concering that (ie people of level 1-10 will be available so that level 1's will still have information sources). 

    I think the main flaw in your reasoning here is the presumption on who tends to use free trials, outside of intentional spammers/griefers. People that are already willing to subscribe and intend to play are not the intended audience for free trials. They are intended for people that are not necessarily used to/experienced with this type of classic MMO. 

    IF VR lives ups to its promises/hype, the game will be substantially different than the modern MMOs that they are playing now (assuming they are even playing MMOs). Therefore, free trials are good for players with little classic MMO experience. 

    Free trials are not about handouts and showing them everything, as you claim. 

    I know that I have some work ahead of me, getting my friends into this game after their bad experiences with modern MMOs. Pantheon is supposed to be a community game. They are going to want to play together, especially with my family. They are not going to want to be handed a trial key and told, go play with random people. You cannot play with me until you pay $60.

    A new game experience is much better with friends than with strangers. This goes for launch also. I don’t think that I am going out on a limb by stating that most players at launch will be playing and learning the game with existing friends. Some of those friends will be dedicated fanatics with pre-paid subscriptions. Others will be friends on trial accounts, trying to determine if the game is for them.

    OneADSeven had a good idea last night, requiring credit cards on file for free trials, similar to what many online services, such as Netflix, Hulu, etc. That will minimize the bad behavior accounts, since a card number is upfront and can be banned. Limiting some chat channels on trials helps minimize abuses. Limiting banking/broker privileges can also eliminate abuses. These are the type of minimum impediments that solve most abuses, while allowing the players to engage with the full game/community.

     

     

    This is why I said we can both be happy. Make some servers where there are trial accounts and others where there are not. This serves both positions as you can play on a server that allows trial accounts and so you can play with family and friends you are trying to get interested into the game and I can play on a server where only those who are willing to sub will play. 

     

    This is why I said.. this is a win/win! You get what you want, I get what I want.

     

    So what is bad about that scenario? 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 21, 2019 2:09 PM PST
    • 1618 posts
    January 21, 2019 2:22 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything, then doesn't that defeat the concept of this game? Does it not put up a false premise as to what type of player this game is seeking?

    Fact is, a trial server with only trial accounts will be no different in that basic concept. New players will explore, find other people exploring and there will be varying level of knowledge concering that (ie people of level 1-10 will be available so that level 1's will still have information sources). 

    I think the main flaw in your reasoning here is the presumption on who tends to use free trials, outside of intentional spammers/griefers. People that are already willing to subscribe and intend to play are not the intended audience for free trials. They are intended for people that are not necessarily used to/experienced with this type of classic MMO. 

    IF VR lives ups to its promises/hype, the game will be substantially different than the modern MMOs that they are playing now (assuming they are even playing MMOs). Therefore, free trials are good for players with little classic MMO experience. 

    Free trials are not about handouts and showing them everything, as you claim. 

    I know that I have some work ahead of me, getting my friends into this game after their bad experiences with modern MMOs. Pantheon is supposed to be a community game. They are going to want to play together, especially with my family. They are not going to want to be handed a trial key and told, go play with random people. You cannot play with me until you pay $60.

    A new game experience is much better with friends than with strangers. This goes for launch also. I don’t think that I am going out on a limb by stating that most players at launch will be playing and learning the game with existing friends. Some of those friends will be dedicated fanatics with pre-paid subscriptions. Others will be friends on trial accounts, trying to determine if the game is for them.

    OneADSeven had a good idea last night, requiring credit cards on file for free trials, similar to what many online services, such as Netflix, Hulu, etc. That will minimize the bad behavior accounts, since a card number is upfront and can be banned. Limiting some chat channels on trials helps minimize abuses. Limiting banking/broker privileges can also eliminate abuses. These are the type of minimum impediments that solve most abuses, while allowing the players to engage with the full game/community.

     

     

    This is why I said we can both be happy. Make some servers where there are trial accounts and others where there are not. This serves both positions as you can play on a server that allows trial accounts and so you can play with family and friends you are trying to get interested into the game and I can play on a server where only those who are willing to sub will play. 

     

    This is why I said.. this is a win/win! You get what you want, I get what I want.

     

    So what is bad about that scenario? 

    The further segregation of the community. On these forums, you constantly see people wanting specialized servers for every play style: PVP, RP, Broker/No Broker, Trial/Subs-only, Tradeable items/No-trade, etc. Then, of course, people will want combos: PVP, broker, subs only. Then of course, RP PvP, broker, subs only. So many possible combos.

    Every special case/combos splinters the Community. Expecting new players to know exactly what they want when they first create a character is ridiculous. Also, different combinations will be easier than others. That brings world firsts into question.

    • 127 posts
    January 21, 2019 2:46 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    This is why I said we can both be happy. Make some servers where there are trial accounts and others where there are not. This serves both positions as you can play on a server that allows trial accounts and so you can play with family and friends you are trying to get interested into the game and I can play on a server where only those who are willing to sub will play. 

     

    This is why I said.. this is a win/win! You get what you want, I get what I want.

     

    So what is bad about that scenario? 

    The further segregation of the community. On these forums, you constantly see people wanting specialized servers for every play style: PVP, RP, Broker/No Broker, Trial/Subs-only, Tradeable items/No-trade, etc. Then, of course, people will want combos: PVP, broker, subs only. Then of course, RP PvP, broker, subs only. So many possible combos.

    Every special case/combos splinters the Community. Expecting new players to know exactly what they want when they first create a character is ridiculous. Also, different combinations will be easier than others. That brings world firsts into question.

    The complication of people desiring combinations of rulesets is less applicable to this idea than to other requests for special rules servers in my opinion. There's pretty strong arguments to disallow trial accounts completely on any special rules server that focuses on roleplay or PvP, because both are very vulnerable to players looking to abuse anonymous throwaway accounts in order to safely ignore any written code of conduct that requires GM/Guide intervention to resolve. On RP servers, GM's would have to spend their time hunting down throwaway trial accounts created for the sole purpose to disrupt other peoples' roleplay. And on PvP servers you get naked level 1 characters randomly attacking everyone on sight and alternate accounts from subscribed users doing everything in their power to frustrate rival guilds as much as possible while breaking the rules without repercussions. It's in everyone's best interest that trial accounts don't ever touch any server except basic ruleset servers.


    This post was edited by Kaeldorn at January 21, 2019 2:49 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 2:56 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    How will people handle playing this game on day one? Will the game on release not be a bunch of random pwople who have no idea playing the game and trying to find progress while developing relationships in the process?

    If your argument is that the only way a person will want to play the game is if they have people who already know all about the game giving them handouts and showing them everything, then doesn't that defeat the concept of this game? Does it not put up a false premise as to what type of player this game is seeking?

    Fact is, a trial server with only trial accounts will be no different in that basic concept. New players will explore, find other people exploring and there will be varying level of knowledge concering that (ie people of level 1-10 will be available so that level 1's will still have information sources). 

    I think the main flaw in your reasoning here is the presumption on who tends to use free trials, outside of intentional spammers/griefers. People that are already willing to subscribe and intend to play are not the intended audience for free trials. They are intended for people that are not necessarily used to/experienced with this type of classic MMO. 

    IF VR lives ups to its promises/hype, the game will be substantially different than the modern MMOs that they are playing now (assuming they are even playing MMOs). Therefore, free trials are good for players with little classic MMO experience. 

    Free trials are not about handouts and showing them everything, as you claim. 

    I know that I have some work ahead of me, getting my friends into this game after their bad experiences with modern MMOs. Pantheon is supposed to be a community game. They are going to want to play together, especially with my family. They are not going to want to be handed a trial key and told, go play with random people. You cannot play with me until you pay $60.

    A new game experience is much better with friends than with strangers. This goes for launch also. I don’t think that I am going out on a limb by stating that most players at launch will be playing and learning the game with existing friends. Some of those friends will be dedicated fanatics with pre-paid subscriptions. Others will be friends on trial accounts, trying to determine if the game is for them.

    OneADSeven had a good idea last night, requiring credit cards on file for free trials, similar to what many online services, such as Netflix, Hulu, etc. That will minimize the bad behavior accounts, since a card number is upfront and can be banned. Limiting some chat channels on trials helps minimize abuses. Limiting banking/broker privileges can also eliminate abuses. These are the type of minimum impediments that solve most abuses, while allowing the players to engage with the full game/community.

     

     

    This is why I said we can both be happy. Make some servers where there are trial accounts and others where there are not. This serves both positions as you can play on a server that allows trial accounts and so you can play with family and friends you are trying to get interested into the game and I can play on a server where only those who are willing to sub will play. 

     

    This is why I said.. this is a win/win! You get what you want, I get what I want.

     

    So what is bad about that scenario? 

    The further segregation of the community. On these forums, you constantly see people wanting specialized servers for every play style: PVP, RP, Broker/No Broker, Trial/Subs-only, Tradeable items/No-trade, etc. Then, of course, people will want combos: PVP, broker, subs only. Then of course, RP PvP, broker, subs only. So many possible combos.

    Every special case/combos splinters the Community. Expecting new players to know exactly what they want when they first create a character is ridiculous. Also, different combinations will be easier than others. That brings world firsts into question.

     

     

    I think you make the best argument as to why we should have a completely segregated server. I mean, under your argument it is a binary choice. Either we accept all the abuses, problems, complications of playing on a server with FTP accounts, or... we don't.

    Let me be clear. I really don't care about a bunch of people who may or may not play the game demanding they be provided special accommodation when they do not want to commit to anything. That is NOT my problem and it is one counter to business process as it concerns PAYING customers. 

    The fact that you need to convince people to come and play a game with you is YOUR problem, and claiming that there is a "potential" to gain new players if we just cater to those who don't want to actually pay for the game is absurdity, bordering on insanity. 

    So who cares if uncle Fred won't play the game because you can't seem to get him to play by watching a video and explaining the details. In fact, I personally don't want uncle Fred to play EXACTLY because of that. Why? Because I then have to explain to Uncle Fred why he is being unreasonable in his tantrum of objecting to my organization of the group to achieve a goal because he is CLUELESS about basic gaming process or goals.

    So how about you an Uncle Fred go and play WoW or any other game DESIGNED to appeal to such mediocrity rather than trying to take a game of a specific purpose and design and then expecting it to cater to something it is not? 

    I swear, why on earth do you folks seek a game that CLAIMS it is not what mainstream is and then DEMAND mainstream. It is insanity!

     

     

    • 1618 posts
    January 21, 2019 3:07 PM PST

    .

    Tanix said: So how about you an Uncle Fred go and play WoW or any other game DESIGNED to appeal to such mediocrity rather than trying to take a game of a specific purpose and design and then expecting it to cater to something it is not? I swear, why on earth do you folks seek a game that CLAIMS it is not what mainstream is and then DEMAND mainstream. It is insanity!

    Well, that pretty much ends the conversation. When all else fails, tell people the game is not for them, they are not as elite as you, and that they should go play some easy game. That wins all the arguments.

    Since you have won all the possible arguments, I will leave the thread to you. 


    This post was edited by Beefcake at January 21, 2019 4:06 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 5:55 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    .

    Tanix said: So how about you an Uncle Fred go and play WoW or any other game DESIGNED to appeal to such mediocrity rather than trying to take a game of a specific purpose and design and then expecting it to cater to something it is not? I swear, why on earth do you folks seek a game that CLAIMS it is not what mainstream is and then DEMAND mainstream. It is insanity!

    Well, that pretty much ends the conversation. When all else fails, tell people the game is not for them, they are not as elite as you, and that they should go play some easy game. That wins all the arguments.

    Since you have won all the possible arguments, I will leave the thread to you. 

     

    I tried to reason and even compromise with you on this issue. Each time I did, you continued to push for the position of having all your cake and eat it to. There is no reasoning with you, as your position is that everyone should be forced to play with trial sever players as to allow a server that does not allow such is demeaning to those who "MIGHT" decide to play the game. 

     

    Sorry I can't reason with you, but you lack any form of reason, only that of one demanding compliance. 

    /shrug

    • 59 posts
    January 22, 2019 8:56 PM PST

    I for one would definetly prefer not to be long in the company of those who don't have any real investment in the game if I can help it.. so a seperate server for the trial sounds very reasonable to me.

    When in an environment that allows for basically throw away accounts, reputation means little. No reason to be decent when you can come back under a new name without having put any money in it to begin with. I have had quite enough of that kind of player over the years.

    And on a side note I really have to agree with a question raised above. Why do people demand things that other games already do aka 'mainstream' games? If those ideas and systems were so good.. why would you leave such a game, yet demand another change to be like it? I'll admit to confusion there.

    • 17 posts
    January 22, 2019 9:16 PM PST

    I wish there weren't trials, mainly because of how it has been abused and negatively affected games in the past. And the statement about minimal impediments does seem odd to me since an MMORPG studio obviously knows all this. I'm just hoping they have good code and a backup plans if things don't work as planned. 

     As for the ideas for different ways they could separate trial players and subscribed, I'd be up for about anything that works to protect the game from abuse. I believe that more trial accounts would be opened trying to break the game and negatively effect more players (in the long run) than those opened by players wanting to try the game leading to subscription. I don't think being tough on Trial players is Elitism, it's acknowledging there are likely more Cheaters wanting in this game than genuine players based on all the companies specializing in ways to cheat/hack/etc in MMO's.

    • 560 posts
    January 22, 2019 9:54 PM PST

    I have been following this thread and I still think whatever they do will work for me but I do see why people are concerned. But now for the reason I am posting again.

    What if current subscribers could hand out trials? If you handed out trials to people that caused problems they could revoke your ability to hand out more trials. This way if you had a friend that wanted to try the game they could play and have a true representation of the game social and all. It would not work for everyone as some people might not have any friends to invite them.

    • 1584 posts
    January 23, 2019 4:06 AM PST

    It's a simple fix make it to where trial accounts can only talk in say, tell fashion, that way they can still do harm but only in a tiny Area so easy pinpoint location or direct communication which will be easily tracked. And in terms of gold farmers and such make it to where the trial accounts can't initiate trading but the subcribtions players can open a trade with them, this solves two problems, one the player who is trading with them know they are doing so to get gold they got against the rules and can be punish as they see fit, and it will make it harder for the gold farmers to trade among the selves to put all the gold on one character in which they sell their gold on.  Also make it to where they can't use AH, has it would be heavily abused by them.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at January 23, 2019 4:07 AM PST