Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Subscription Only & Public servers (incl trial accounts)

    • 127 posts
    January 12, 2019 9:16 AM PST

    One thing I'm somewhat concerned about with regards to Pantheon is VR's official stance regarding trial accounts.

    1.9 Will there be a trial of the game for me to play before I buy it?

    Yes, a new player will be able to download and play Pantheon to a certain level for free, with a minimum of impediments. It's important to us that players, especially those who might not be familiar with classically-spirited MMOs, be given a chance to acclimate and truly enjoy the game. That said, some restrictions on these free characters may have to be made in order to avoid them being used by farmers, griefers, etc.

    The fact they state the intention is to only have "a minimum of impediments" seems to imply that they do not want to block access to major features like zone wide chats, ability to trade with other players or bar access from non-newbie zones altogether. As those would be significant impediments and stop trials from being able to experience the game the way it's meant to be experienced. This means that there will definitely be many instances where an abuser will slip through the cracks and cause harm. GMs can respond and ban such accounts, but by the time they get to it the damage is already done and new trial accounts can be created to continue to do harm.

     

    I did some digging and the only topic I found where similar concerns were expressed is over a year old. To summarize, many posts expressed a desire to either impose huge impediments on trial accounts to the point where they can barely even talk to other players, or seclude trial accounts on separate trial-only servers/shards so free accounts can't be made with the intention to grief subscribed players and gold farmers/sellers using trial accounts wouldn't have anyone to sell to. On the other side of the argument, there were quite a few who were concerned that boxing in trial accounts in such ways would be very unwelcoming towards REAL new players and not lead to player retention.

     

    Now, I think there might be a decent middle ground in the following solution: have a number of servers that are subscription-only (i.e. do not allow access to trial accounts) and others that are public, where both trial accounts and subscribers can play together. Subscribed players can then choose for themselves whether they want to share a world with trial accounts or not. Most special rules servers (such as RP and PvP servers) should probably always be subscription only because of added ways and incentives to ruin the game for other players that are difficult to police.

    What are your thoughts on this subject and the solution described above? Would you choose to play on a public server or one that's open to subscribers only?


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 14, 2019 4:03 AM PST
    • 560 posts
    January 12, 2019 6:40 PM PST

    I assume they have a good plan on how to implement trials as many games before have had to deal with the same issues. It had some down sides but the trial island in Vanguard I felt worked well. If your suggested solution was chosen I would likely pick a subscription only server.


    This post was edited by Susurrus at January 12, 2019 8:03 PM PST
    • 127 posts
    January 12, 2019 6:58 PM PST

    Hopefully.

    I could be wrong, but I think Pantheon might have race-based starting locations similar to how EQ and other games had them. If that is the case, how would a trial island (by which I assume you mean having a part of the world that trial characters cannot leave) work? Would the starting zone for each race be its own trial island, and would it include main cities themselves?

    Cities will probably still have good reasons for players of all levels to go there. For training, crafting/trading, interacting with faction NPCs or even just passing through as some kind of travel hub (i.e. ports with boats). Most forms of griefing from trial accounts made specifically for that purpose should be pretty well contained within them, but the issue of gold sellers and trolls spamming the chat could still be problematic.


    This post was edited by Kaeldorn at January 12, 2019 7:00 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    January 12, 2019 7:38 PM PST

    Quite likely "minimum of impediments" would mean no access to world or zone chat (we do not yet know how chat will work and there have been debates over world chat is a big plus or a big minus) unless they are on a separate server.

    This is standard in most MMOs and avoids most problems.

    My hope would be that there would be a channel that they did have access to and regular players (subscribers) would also have access so we could try to help people out, recruit for guilds etc.

    To me substantial impediments would mean a very strict time limit, prevention from grouping with regular players, lack of access to any zone or world chat channel, very low level cap such as level 2 being their limit  etc.

    If I am right - and I may very well *not* be I am speculating and have no knowledge of VR's plans - I see no need for mixed servers.

    • 560 posts
    January 12, 2019 8:12 PM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Hopefully.

    I could be wrong, but I think Pantheon might have race-based starting locations similar to how EQ and other games had them. If that is the case, how would a trial island (by which I assume you mean having a part of the world that trial characters cannot leave) work? Would the starting zone for each race be its own trial island, and would it include main cities themselves?

    Cities will probably still have good reasons for players of all levels to go there. For training, crafting/trading, interacting with faction NPCs or even just passing through as some kind of travel hub (i.e. ports with boats). Most forms of griefing from trial accounts made specifically for that purpose should be pretty well contained within them, but the issue of gold sellers and trolls spamming the chat could still be problematic.

    So Vanguard let subscription player’s choices the starting island or your race starting point. I forget if each race had their own or if some shared. This did work but as I suggested before it had some down sides. I think as a way to get a dwindling population to seem larger they gave an item in the starting island you could not get anywhere else and better gear for your level then you got off the island.

    If you were on a free account you could play until around level 10 but could not leave the island.

    • 127 posts
    January 13, 2019 5:25 PM PST

    @dorotea: Not sure if I'd consider those impediments minimal. But I agree if the restrictions for trial accounts are fairly significant there might be no need for splitting up servers into public and subscriber categories.

    @starblight: Alright, thanks for the explanation. I think it'd be strange if all races started in the same spot for trial accounts in this particular game because various races will not get along and it would make it more difficult to introduce players to what THEIR chosen race is all about in the world of Terminus if they were all starting out in a multi cultural settlement. Does that make sense? Maybe splitting them up in alignment based groups (elves, halflings and humans vs. dwarves, gnomes and archai vs dark myr, ogres and skar) could work out better. Even then though the evil races seem to have some huge differences among themselves and they might not even like each other. Dwindling population numbers among low level characters would start to occur more quickly if player starting locations are split up like this though. It would be nice if trial accounts could still travel between the different starting zones and see different parts of the world.

    As for the restriction to play until level 10, at least that part seems to be the plan for Pantheon as well.

    • 1033 posts
    January 16, 2019 8:36 AM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Now, I think there might be a decent middle ground in the following solution: have a number of servers that are subscription-only (i.e. do not allow access to trial accounts) and others that are public, where both trial accounts and subscribers can play together. Subscribed players can then choose for themselves whether they want to share a world with trial accounts or not. Most special rules servers (such as RP and PvP servers) should probably always be subscription only because of added ways and incentives to ruin the game for other players that are difficult to police.

    What are your thoughts on this subject and the solution described above? Would you choose to play on a public server or one that's open to subscribers only?

     

    I think giving the choice to the subscriber is the best option. I have no desire to play on servers with the trial accounts.

    I have read arguments that state that by not allowing trial accounts to play with the subscribers, it will discourage players from the game. Personally, I think if someone doesn't want to spend the buy in to try the game when they have access to video play throughs on youtube and numerous means to search and review the game before the purchase, then likely they aren't that interested anyway and a trial account playing with subscribers isn't going to be the deal breaker. Most who are serious about playing the game likely already know why they are going to it and the trial account will be wasted effort. 

     

    I think that the trial accounts will then do more harm to subscribers and the game than allowing the subscriber the choice of a server without trial accounts. 

    • 2752 posts
    January 16, 2019 11:29 AM PST

    Tanix said:

    Personally, I think if someone doesn't want to spend the buy in to try the game when they have access to video play throughs on youtube and numerous means to search and review the game before the purchase, then likely they aren't that interested anyway and a trial account playing with subscribers isn't going to be the deal breaker. Most who are serious about playing the game likely already know why they are going to it and the trial account will be wasted effort. 

     

    I think that the trial accounts will then do more harm to subscribers and the game than allowing the subscriber the choice of a server without trial accounts. 

    I feel you discredit how much trials can sway people that are on the fence or unsure of a product. Like many things in the world, trying something out first-hand is often much different than just watching videos and reading about it. Of course they aren't serious about playing to begin with but they very well could be after trying it, especially in the MMO sphere where a lot of players have grown jaded and skeptical over the years. Trials are also major when it comes to getting friends to buy into and play a new game or otherwise try something new.

    Don't buy a car until you drive it, you can read all the specs and watch videos of a car being driven but can't get the feel of a car without driving it yourself and the same is more or less true for a great many people when it comes to games. 

    • 793 posts
    January 16, 2019 11:57 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Tanix said:

    Personally, I think if someone doesn't want to spend the buy in to try the game when they have access to video play throughs on youtube and numerous means to search and review the game before the purchase, then likely they aren't that interested anyway and a trial account playing with subscribers isn't going to be the deal breaker. Most who are serious about playing the game likely already know why they are going to it and the trial account will be wasted effort. 

     

    I think that the trial accounts will then do more harm to subscribers and the game than allowing the subscriber the choice of a server without trial accounts. 

    I feel you discredit how much trials can sway people that are on the fence or unsure of a product. Like many things in the world, trying something out first-hand is often much different than just watching videos and reading about it. Of course they aren't serious about playing to begin with but they very well could be after trying it, especially in the MMO sphere where a lot of players have grown jaded and skeptical over the years. Trials are also major when it comes to getting friends to buy into and play a new game or otherwise try something new.

    Don't buy a car until you drive it, you can read all the specs and watch videos of a car being driven but can't get the feel of a car without driving it yourself and the same is more or less true for a great many people when it comes to games. 

     

    Even moreso, driving that car around the dealers lot, is nothing like driving it on public roads, with other drivers.

     

    • 1033 posts
    January 16, 2019 12:10 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Tanix said:

    Personally, I think if someone doesn't want to spend the buy in to try the game when they have access to video play throughs on youtube and numerous means to search and review the game before the purchase, then likely they aren't that interested anyway and a trial account playing with subscribers isn't going to be the deal breaker. Most who are serious about playing the game likely already know why they are going to it and the trial account will be wasted effort. 

     

    I think that the trial accounts will then do more harm to subscribers and the game than allowing the subscriber the choice of a server without trial accounts. 

    I feel you discredit how much trials can sway people that are on the fence or unsure of a product. Like many things in the world, trying something out first-hand is often much different than just watching videos and reading about it. Of course they aren't serious about playing to begin with but they very well could be after trying it, especially in the MMO sphere where a lot of players have grown jaded and skeptical over the years. Trials are also major when it comes to getting friends to buy into and play a new game or otherwise try something new.

    Don't buy a car until you drive it, you can read all the specs and watch videos of a car being driven but can't get the feel of a car without driving it yourself and the same is more or less true for a great many people when it comes to games. 

     

    Well, EQ had a trial demo of the game (offline) and it filled in the various basic elements of play and function, if basic game play to get the feel is all that is needed, such a demo would suffice. I have nothing against them even having a trial server where you can log in, make a character, level up a bit, play with some friends, etc.. and then decide. 

    The problem is, and this is where all the issues arise, when you try to attach that to the servers of people who are already subscribed and then you try to accommodate by allowing people to keep a character they leveled up some on the servers. It brings about numerous problems for abuse, far more than the benefits of the trial I think. 

    In my experience (and I realize this is anecdotal), most people who would not play the game without a demo likely would not play it long anyway even with it. My point is, those who are on the fence after reading, watching YouTube, and having people in detail online explain the game and its play are not likely to be long term or even avid players. This isn't the early days where people are completely unfamiliar with games, various game engines, styles or play, etc... It isn't like playing UO and then being shown EQ and being on the fence because it is so new and mysterious. 

    The point is, I see at lot more cons than pros, though keep in mind I am speaking about the trial server being connected to a subscribed server in any shape or form (this includes level caps and allowed transfers from trial servers). Outside of that I don't see any negatives and honestly, as long as I can pick a server where there are no trial accounts, personally I am fine. 

     

     

     

    • 228 posts
    January 17, 2019 7:40 AM PST

    I would probably go as far as saying that a character developed on a trial server, would have to start over when moved to a subscription server. That would incite those who like the game to subscribe immediately and start the real journey rather than play for free until level 10.

    • 1281 posts
    January 17, 2019 10:07 AM PST

    If you want to sell more units, they shouldn't even have a trial or demo. There has been research that has shown game demo's lower sales, not increase sales. In the modern age, with streaming and video platforms, players should know what they are getting well before they buy it.

    But if they are going to have free trials, there has to be some limitations. They would probably block things like trading (you cannot give items) and have limits to how much gold you can have. I think restricting trial players to their own server would also be a good idea if they don't want to have any restrictions at all. If the player buys the game the character is transfered over to production servers.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 17, 2019 10:10 AM PST
    • 1120 posts
    January 17, 2019 12:58 PM PST

    The issues with a "trial server" is that once the initial rush of the game is over after release.   That server will be very very barren.  Having someone trial a game on an empty server is a terrible idea.

    • 1033 posts
    January 20, 2019 12:46 AM PST

    Porygon said:

    The issues with a "trial server" is that once the initial rush of the game is over after release.   That server will be very very barren.  Having someone trial a game on an empty server is a terrible idea.

    When the amount of people who trial your game drops to such an amount where there is nobody to group with, a trial server is no longer necessary. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 20, 2019 12:46 AM PST
    • 332 posts
    January 20, 2019 12:41 PM PST

    Have the starting location or trial area a entirely different "location" that does not interact with the "main" game. That way ooc , general etc is limited to that area , thus giving the full "feeling" of the game but preventing script based rerolls affecting the server with various spam. This also forces a sub to leave said area .

    • 1618 posts
    January 20, 2019 1:03 PM PST

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

    • 1033 posts
    January 20, 2019 1:15 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

     

    It has nothing to do with being elite, it is entirely based on the problems that free acounts bring to the game. There is no loss to a free acount which means all of the bad behaviors and actors can run rampant without consequence. This is not a generalization that all people who would try a trial are bad people, it is simply a point of fact concerning what trial accounts bring. 

    You know who is more important than a potential customer? A currrent paying customer and when you treat paying customers less than your trial customers by forcing them to deal with the problems with free acounts because "potential customers" refuse to become paying customers, you are essentially treating your paying customers as second class citizens.

     

    So please, stop demanding they treat paying customers like second class citizens. 

    • 264 posts
    January 20, 2019 1:33 PM PST

     I don't like the idea of free trial accounts in the first place, but if VR is going that route they should be on separate servers. It's not about eliteness, I played on the free servers in Runescape back in the day and I have some serious horror stories about the "community" there. People with zero investment in the game are gonna do mass botting and trolling that's just how it is. The sad part is a lot of potential players may get turned off by their fellow free trial "newbies" and quit, it's why I don't like the idea at all. Imagine all the bots in the newbie zones hogging up all the mobs ugh I can see it now. And you can take that to the bank that's what is going to happen...at best the GMs will be constantly mopping the bots/trolls up wasting valuable time that could have been spent on subscribing customers. 

    • 1618 posts
    January 20, 2019 1:48 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

     

    It has nothing to do with being elite, it is entirely based on the problems that free acounts bring to the game. There is no loss to a free acount which means all of the bad behaviors and actors can run rampant without consequence. This is not a generalization that all people who would try a trial are bad people, it is simply a point of fact concerning what trial accounts bring. 

    You know who is more important than a potential customer? A currrent paying customer and when you treat paying customers less than your trial customers by forcing them to deal with the problems with free acounts because "potential customers" refuse to become paying customers, you are essentially treating your paying customers as second class citizens.

     

    So please, stop demanding they treat paying customers like second class citizens. 

    Yup, we get your point. Community is important, as long as no one new tries to join it.

    • 1033 posts
    January 20, 2019 2:10 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Tanix said:

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

     

    It has nothing to do with being elite, it is entirely based on the problems that free acounts bring to the game. There is no loss to a free acount which means all of the bad behaviors and actors can run rampant without consequence. This is not a generalization that all people who would try a trial are bad people, it is simply a point of fact concerning what trial accounts bring. 

    You know who is more important than a potential customer? A currrent paying customer and when you treat paying customers less than your trial customers by forcing them to deal with the problems with free acounts because "potential customers" refuse to become paying customers, you are essentially treating your paying customers as second class citizens.

     

    So please, stop demanding they treat paying customers like second class citizens. 

    Yup, we get your point. Community is important, as long as no one new tries to join it.

     

    That isn't even a logical response. What does that even mean? 

    You are completely ignoring all of the issues that come up with free accounts. Until you even begin to attend to those points, your argument serves no purpose other than to complain. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 20, 2019 2:11 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 20, 2019 2:16 PM PST

    Ziegfried said:

     I don't like the idea of free trial accounts in the first place, but if VR is going that route they should be on separate servers. It's not about eliteness, I played on the free servers in Runescape back in the day and I have some serious horror stories about the "community" there. People with zero investment in the game are gonna do mass botting and trolling that's just how it is. The sad part is a lot of potential players may get turned off by their fellow free trial "newbies" and quit, it's why I don't like the idea at all. Imagine all the bots in the newbie zones hogging up all the mobs ugh I can see it now. And you can take that to the bank that's what is going to happen...at best the GMs will be constantly mopping the bots/trolls up wasting valuable time that could have been spent on subscribing customers. 

    Exactly!

    In fact, I refuse to play any game that is fully FTP because of the issues with it. When they talked about the possibilty of having a trial area for the level 1-10 where FTP plays with the subscribers, I considered, and still am to an extent whether I will even bother playing the game and that depends on if they allow subscribers to be on a different server. I know what comes with it and I want no part of it. As you pointed out, think about how the first 10 levels for the subscriber will be a hassle. So basically 1/5 of the game ends up being FTP garbage because you have to deal with all the people who can't be bothered to commit anything. I don't want to play with those folks, they have plenty of FTP games they can hop back and forth from. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 20, 2019 2:28 PM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Now, I think there might be a decent middle ground in the following solution: have a number of servers that are subscription-only (i.e. do not allow access to trial accounts) and others that are public, where both trial accounts and subscribers can play together. Subscribed players can then choose for themselves whether they want to share a world with trial accounts or not. Most special rules servers (such as RP and PvP servers) should probably always be subscription only because of added ways and incentives to ruin the game for other players that are difficult to police.

    What are your thoughts on this subject and the solution described above? Would you choose to play on a public server or one that's open to subscribers only?

    I'm totally down with this but I doubt it'll happen. An argument against it would be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". New people are the life blood of an MMO and as a "hardcore" player I want as healthy a server and game and community as possible, and therefore I have great incentive to teach and help and assist new players who might otherwise quit the game. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at January 20, 2019 2:29 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 20, 2019 2:44 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Kaeldorn said:

    Now, I think there might be a decent middle ground in the following solution: have a number of servers that are subscription-only (i.e. do not allow access to trial accounts) and others that are public, where both trial accounts and subscribers can play together. Subscribed players can then choose for themselves whether they want to share a world with trial accounts or not. Most special rules servers (such as RP and PvP servers) should probably always be subscription only because of added ways and incentives to ruin the game for other players that are difficult to police.

    What are your thoughts on this subject and the solution described above? Would you choose to play on a public server or one that's open to subscribers only?

    I'm totally down with this but I doubt it'll happen. An argument against it would be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". New people are the life blood of an MMO and as a "hardcore" player I want as healthy a server and game and community as possible, and therefore I have great incentive to teach and help and assist new players who might otherwise quit the game. 

     

    Actually, retaining subscribers is the life blood of an MMO. 

     

    If your target goal is 50k subs. Then if all stay playing, you are doing well. Granted, by basic attrition, you will lose people over time, but even without pandering to FTP gimmicks, you will still gain new players. So, the main goal of an MMO is to produce content that retains the current player. 

     

    The business approach of "new subs are the lifeblood" is a model for FTP and garbage games hoping to sucker in people to the game before they realize it is garbage and to keep catching the game hoppers as they cycle through over and over the many games they play. That model needs many other tools that Pantheon isn't going to use, so... it isn't the important factor here. 

     

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 20, 2019 2:45 PM PST
    • 844 posts
    January 20, 2019 4:18 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

    back in the day when the only way to experience a game was by buying it, you might make more sense.

    Today if you want to see what a game is about before buying it there are a vast amount of ways to educate yourself. Streaming, youtube, fansites, in-depth reviews, etc.

    Trial accounts are NOT needed, and will in some manner simply end up being a horrible source of grief and exploitation.

    • 1618 posts
    January 20, 2019 4:42 PM PST

    zewtastic said:

    Beefcake said:

    I understand your aversion to gold sellers, spammers, etc. However, we need to stop treating trial accounts as second class citizens. This is a community based game. Excluding the trial accounts from the community will only turn them off.

    Trial accounts are potential subscribers. Treat them as such. 

    Stop acting like you are all elite and trial accounts are the untouchables.

    back in the day when the only way to experience a game was by buying it, you might make more sense.

    Today if you want to see what a game is about before buying it there are a vast amount of ways to educate yourself. Streaming, youtube, fansites, in-depth reviews, etc.

    Trial accounts are NOT needed, and will in some manner simply end up being a horrible source of grief and exploitation.

    Luckily for us all, VR disagrees. They are heavily invested in making a great on-boarding experience. As their FAQ clearly states:

    “Yes, a new player will be able to download and play Pantheon to a certain level for free, with a minimum of impediments. It's important to us that players, especially those who might not be familiar with classically-spirited MMOs, be given a chance to acclimate and truly enjoy the game. That said, some restrictions on these free characters may have to be made in order to avoid them being used by farmers, griefers, etc.“

    So, although you may disagree, it’s happening.