Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Should spells/buffs persist after removed from bar?

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:49 PM PST

    Naunet said:

    Keno Monster said:Imagine how absolutely awful it's going to be for buffing classes to have to redo buffs mid fight all the time. Talk about garbage gameplay.

    They're... buffing classes. Their role would be to provide buffs in combat, and buffs can be a lot more engaging than "press button and forget".

    They are NOT just buffing classes. Reducing them to that is going to destroy the desire to play them. Allowing long term buffs is what alleviates the tedium of button mashing games and allows them to use all the other tools in their toolbelt. They can heal, they can dot, they can nuke, they can CC, they can manage their pet, etc, etc, etc. 

    Additionally, from what we already know of the game there are going to be gameplay mechanics that require multile classes to work together to achieve a synergistic effect, for example the shaman wet status and druid lightning abilities. There is so much already going on in the game that will enhance gameplay and require attention. You've yet to explain how disallowing long term buffs(and making pets vanish if they aren't memmed?!?!??) will actually make gameplay better other than "it could be good", while I've given reason after reason after reason. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at January 18, 2019 1:55 PM PST
    • 483 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:57 PM PST

    @Keno Monster

    I don't get where the notion of having a small action bar just for buffs of 2-3 extra slots that can only be cast outside of combat to elimitate the cluncky mechanic of memorizing buffs just to cast them once every 30+ mins and remorizing again the combat ability set-up, leads to "button mashing" and "ablity bloat of 80+ spells" 

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:59 PM PST

    jpedrote said:

    @Keno Monster

    I don't get where the notion of having a small action bar just for buffs of 2-3 extra slots that can only be cast outside of combat to elimitate the cluncky mechanic of memorizing buffs just to cast them once every 30+ mins and remorizing again the combat ability set-up, leads to "button mashing" and "ablity bloat of 80+ spells" 

    Not at all what I'm arguing. There are multiple angles to this discussion and that is not what I have been talking about. Frankly, again, I think this is a non issue. I don't see why people can't just sit down in combat and mem the spell they want with the extra risk of drawing aggro and taking the automatic critical hit that comes when  you're attacked while sitting. The issue I have is with people who are saying that the game will be better if pets DESPAWN if they aren't kept memorized, etc, etc, etc. 

    Call it a personal opinion, but I think it is illogical to differentiate between buff spells and other spells. They are all just spells. They do not require separate distinction. Logically, thinks like kick or bash or taunt or sense heading fall into a different category, to me. There is a category of innate abilities that do not need to be "cast" and therefore don't take up a slot in a limited bar. To me there is a clear distinction between that type of thing and spells, while spells are just spells. This is so much ado about nothing. Let people remem spells in combat with the requirement that they be at high risk while doing so and be done with it. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at January 18, 2019 2:06 PM PST
    • 370 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:06 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    They are NOT just buffing classes.

     

    I played an Enchanter in EQ. I didn't get groups because I could CC. Monks, rangers, and bards could single pull pretty effectively. It was a nice tool, but it wasn't why an Enchanter was in every group. Crack and Haste. I was a buff bot. I was primarly a buffing class. When buffs wore off my number one prioirty was to reapply them, all other duties typically came after that.

     

    Forcing me to cast my buffs more often didn't make it engaging. I didn't enjoy casting haste because of its short duration, it was a bothersome time sink. I don't want my buffs to be an aura that just get applied to group members. That takes away my ability to buff lowbies, friends, other groups... you know be part of the greater community.

     

    I'm on board with an alternate skill bar for buffs. Something like 6-8 Combat abilities then like 4 or so "buffs".

     

    I hate skll bloat. I love FF14 but that game has now gotten to the point where there are simply too many skills to really enjoy the game. 

    • 388 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:07 PM PST

    Yes, buffs should remain even if not mem'd. who would want to take away the fun of buffing. I used to love Buffing at the EC tunnel. Everyone there was lev 3-10, so the buffs really made it super fun for the group.  I remember getting cleric and enchanter buffs and SoW and we would run to Befallen (the most awesome newbie dungeon ever created), and those buffs would help us get Keys for the doors and make it downstairs where the real danger started. Great exps because it was High potential for death. 

    I also don't want short 5 min / 10 min buffs.  It's already TERRIBLE that we can't change out spells while sitting/medding In Combat. EQ didn't have that restiction. 

    Don't make buffs Suck too. Let me get a 30 min to 1 hour buffs.  Buffs are Super helpful for NAKED corpse runs too.  5 min buffs are useless buffs. 

     

    • 483 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:09 PM PST

    But the current plan is to no allow memorizing spells in combat, can't provide a link, maybe bazgrim can help, but Brad said somewhere that meming in combat will not be allowed.

    As for pets of buffs despawning if they're not on the bar I don't aggree with that, but I also don't aggree with having to memorize those before combat, cast them ounce and load the combat spell set again, that's why I'm suggesting a less cluncky way of achieving the same flexibity that EQ had, but wihtout the memorizing and rememorizing, because that's really cluncky to me.

    I see buffs, pets, summon foods, teleports, fun spells, and Long DPS/defensive/healing cooldowns and abilities that should be able to be "free cast" (don't need to be memorized or are memorized in a special extra action bar only for that type of spell) 

    In my mind, there should be an extra mini action bar with 2 slots for long important cooldowns 30+ mins, and an extra mini action bar for buffs as I explained in the previous posts, adding to this, things like summon food and other out of combat spells such as teleport should be "free cast" and casted direclty from the spell book, with no restriction other than the caster being out of combat

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:12 PM PST

    EppE said:

    Keno Monster said:

    They are NOT just buffing classes.

     

    I played an Enchanter in EQ. I didn't get groups because I could CC. Monks, rangers, and bards could single pull pretty effectively. It was a nice tool, but it wasn't why an Enchanter was in every group. Crack and Haste. I was a buff bot. I was primarly a buffing class. When buffs wore off my number one prioirty was to reapply them, all other duties typically came after that.

     

    Enchanters who weren't charming or weren't in a group requiring CC had it bad because 2 of their most powerful abilities weren't being used, I agree. We've already seen much more active combat from that class in the Pantheon streams so far than just buffs and mez so hopefully they recognized the issues from the past and are working to make them better. 

    EppE said:

    Forcing me to cast my buffs more often didn't make it engaging. I didn't enjoy casting haste because of its short duration, it was a bothersome time sink. 

     

    Exactly. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:17 PM PST

    jpedrote said:

    But the current plan is to no allow memorizing spells in combat, can't provide a link, maybe bazgrim can help, but Brad said somewhere that meming in combat will not be allowed.

    As for pets of buffs despawning if they're not on the bar I don't aggree with that, but I also don't aggree with having to memorize those before combat, cast them ounce and load the combat spell set again, that's why I'm suggesting a less cluncky way of achieving the same flexibity that EQ had, but wihtout the memorizing and rememorizing, because that's really cluncky to me.

    I see buffs, pets, summon foods, teleports, fun spells, and Long DPS/defensive/healing cooldowns and abilities that should be able to be "free cast" (don't need to be memorized or are memorized in a special extra action bar only for that type of spell) 

    In my mind, there should be an extra mini action bar with 2 slots for long important cooldowns 30+ mins, and an extra mini action bar for buffs as I explained in the previous posts, adding to this, things like summon food and other out of combat spells such as teleport should be "free cast" and casted direclty from the spell book, with no restriction other than the caster being out of combat

    I don't have a problem with any of this, and you are correct, currently in PA, there is no changing spells in combat. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:17 PM PST

    Flapp said:

    Yes, buffs should remain even if not mem'd. who would want to take away the fun of buffing. I used to love Buffing at the EC tunnel. Everyone there was lev 3-10, so the buffs really made it super fun for the group.  I remember getting cleric and enchanter buffs and SoW and we would run to Befallen (the most awesome newbie dungeon ever created), and those buffs would help us get Keys for the doors and make it downstairs where the real danger started. Great exps because it was High potential for death. 

    I also don't want short 5 min / 10 min buffs.  It's already TERRIBLE that we can't change out spells while sitting/medding In Combat. EQ didn't have that restiction. 

    Don't make buffs Suck too. Let me get a 30 min to 1 hour buffs.  Buffs are Super helpful for NAKED corpse runs too.  5 min buffs are useless buffs. 

     

    Amen. Many good points. 

    • 646 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:20 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:They are NOT just buffing classes. Reducing them to that is going to destroy the desire to play them. Allowing long term buffs is what alleviates the tedium of button mashing games and allows them to use all the other tools in their toolbelt. They can heal, they can dot, they can nuke, they can CC, they can manage their pet, etc, etc, etc. 

    Additionally, from what we already know of the game there are going to be gameplay mechanics that require multile classes to work together to achieve a synergistic effect, for example the shaman wet status and druid lightning abilities. There is so much already going on in the game that will enhance gameplay and require attention. You've yet to explain how disallowing long term buffs(and making pets vanish if they aren't memmed?!?!??) will actually make gameplay better other than "it could be good", while I've given reason after reason after reason.

    I'm not reducing them to that. I'm saying your choices in what you put on your action bar should matter and affect the combat you enter. So an enchanter can consider and plan ahead - how many and which of their buffs do they want, versus crowd control, versus other spells? This is at the core of the LAS system. Long term buffs don't play well with an LAS, and so I suggest they be designed more akin to buff spells in games that DO utilize an LAS instead of a "access to everything" action bar. This means they're not just eating up an action bar slot for an hour, but will be part of combat and directly impact your gameplay.

    Same goes with pet summons.

    This isn't unusual. It's how other games I've played that utilize an LAS system work.

    Flapp said:Yes, buffs should remain even if not mem'd. who would want to take away the fun of buffing. I used to love Buffing at the EC tunnel. Everyone there was lev 3-10, so the buffs really made it super fun for the group.  I remember getting cleric and enchanter buffs and SoW and we would run to Befallen (the most awesome newbie dungeon ever created), and those buffs would help us get Keys for the doors and make it downstairs where the real danger started. Great exps because it was High potential for death. 

    I also don't want short 5 min / 10 min buffs.  It's already TERRIBLE that we can't change out spells while sitting/medding In Combat. EQ didn't have that restiction. 

    Don't make buffs Suck too. Let me get a 30 min to 1 hour buffs.  Buffs are Super helpful for NAKED corpse runs too.  5 min buffs are useless buffs.

    Why should buffs be fire and forget spells? Why can't they be more interesting, possibly even requiring you to adjust your gameplay in order to maintain them (e.g. draining a resource while it's up, requiring you to make use of certain other abilities to maintain your resource to maximize uptime)? Y'all are stuck in this ancient idea of what buffs are, but that style of buff doesn't jive with the design goal of an LAS.


    This post was edited by Naunet at January 18, 2019 2:26 PM PST
    • 483 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:21 PM PST

    agree on the short duration buffs, either make them really short like 15-20seconds self buffs with a 1 mins cooldown (this makes some interesting gameplay aspects with cooldown stacking for burst damage) , or make them 30+ minute buffs, please don't go the with the middle child of these 2, the 5-10 mins buffs, those are awfull and no one likes them....

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 2:34 PM PST

    Naunet said:

    Keno Monster said:They are NOT just buffing classes. Reducing them to that is going to destroy the desire to play them. Allowing long term buffs is what alleviates the tedium of button mashing games and allows them to use all the other tools in their toolbelt. They can heal, they can dot, they can nuke, they can CC, they can manage their pet, etc, etc, etc. 

    Additionally, from what we already know of the game there are going to be gameplay mechanics that require multile classes to work together to achieve a synergistic effect, for example the shaman wet status and druid lightning abilities. There is so much already going on in the game that will enhance gameplay and require attention. You've yet to explain how disallowing long term buffs(and making pets vanish if they aren't memmed?!?!??) will actually make gameplay better other than "it could be good", while I've given reason after reason after reason.

    I'm not reducing them to that. I'm saying your choices in what you put on your action bar should matter and affect the combat you enter. So an enchanter can consider and plan ahead - how many and which of their buffs do they want, versus crowd control, versus other spells? This is at the core of the LAS system. Long term buffs don't play well with an LAS, and so I suggest they be designed more akin to buff spells in games that DO utilize an LAS instead of a "access to everything" action bar. This means they're not just eating up an action bar slot for an hour, but will be part of combat and directly impact your gameplay.

    Same goes with pet summons.

    This isn't unusual. It's how other games I've played that utilize an LAS system work.

    Flapp said:Yes, buffs should remain even if not mem'd. who would want to take away the fun of buffing. I used to love Buffing at the EC tunnel. Everyone there was lev 3-10, so the buffs really made it super fun for the group.  I remember getting cleric and enchanter buffs and SoW and we would run to Befallen (the most awesome newbie dungeon ever created), and those buffs would help us get Keys for the doors and make it downstairs where the real danger started. Great exps because it was High potential for death. 

    I also don't want short 5 min / 10 min buffs.  It's already TERRIBLE that we can't change out spells while sitting/medding In Combat. EQ didn't have that restiction. 

    Don't make buffs Suck too. Let me get a 30 min to 1 hour buffs.  Buffs are Super helpful for NAKED corpse runs too.  5 min buffs are useless buffs.

    Why should buffs be fire and forget spells? Why can't they be more interesting, possibly even requiring you to adjust your gameplay in order to maintain them (e.g. draining a resource while it's up, requiring you to make use of certain other abilities to maintain your resource to maximize uptime)? Y'all are stuck in this ancient idea of what buffs are, but that style of buff doesn't jive with the design goal of an LAS.

    This is about the 4th time recently you've told other people they are thinking wrong but you can't actually defend any of your opinions. Your defense is to ask the question "why not?" and when person after person gives details reasons why they don't like they idea you tell them they aren't thinking about it the right way. We've detailed for you numerous times why passive long term buffs are good, and how Pantheon already has multiple short term interactions during combat to fulfill this engagement you're looking for, and you continue to ignore them and insult people's intelligence. 

    • 3237 posts
    January 18, 2019 7:31 PM PST

    2.2 Will there be a limitation to the number of abilities we can use at a given time?

    You may be limited to a subset of your abilities for the next encounter, causing you to have to intelligently plan ahead and memorize the spells most effective against the upcoming enemy.  Likewise, you'll want to memorize spells that counter the upcoming mob’s abilities.  Lastly, you may have some abilities that work synergistically with others in your group.  But the key point here is that these tactical decisions can be made right before the actual encounter.  Then, say you move on deeper into the dungeon and are about to confront a different boss with different abilities and a different disposition, it may make tactical sense to prep different abilities.  So yes, you are limited to that extent (you cannot simply use any of your 80+ abilities whenever you wish) because planning for the battle ahead and doing so effectively is key to Pantheon.  The exact number of spells, abilities, feats and actions one can prep is TBD and won’t likely be finalized until Beta. What’s depicted in screenshots showing the UI is not final.

     

    The highlighted text above offers a pretty reasonable explanation on why long-term buffs don't really work well with a strictly enforced LAS.  Let me break it down:

    "You may be limited to a subset of your abilities for the next encounter, causing you to have to intelligently plan ahead and memorize the spells most effective against the upcoming enemy.  Likewise, you'll want to memorize spells that counter the upcoming mob’s abilities. "

    This phrase emphasizes the need to intelligently plan ahead and memorize abilities most effective against the upcoming enemy.  The implication is that your choices matter.  Let's consider the following:

    1)  If the enemy has a really nasty AoE attack that can be interrupted, it would probably be wise to have an interrupt on your bar.

    2)  If it has a thousand needles attack (deals exactly 1k damage) then it probably makes sense to have an HP buff on your bar as a way to stack health and counter the damage that otherwise can't be mitigated.

    3)  If it applies a stacking DoT that causes your character to explode after X amount of stacks, it probably makes sense to have a few options for purging that effect.

     

    #1 and #3 have to be intelligently planned around.  #2 does not.  This is because #1 and #3 are "active" abilities while #2 is considered a "persistent" ability.  You can cast your HP buff, as well as every other long-term buff your class offers, and then safely remove them from your hotbar.  The only way you wouldn't want to do this is if the mob has a dispel ability since it could cancel out your HP buff and that would require it to be reapplied mid-combat.  Another far-fetched reason would be if you are expecting players to die, since again, the reapplication of the buff would be important.  The important distinction here is that you only "intelligently plan ahead" for buffs when their reapplication becomes necessary mid-fight.  If that isn't necessary, it never makes sense to enter combat with long-term buffs on your bar.

    There really is no sense of intelligent planning going on here.  Every buff that can be utilized will be utilized and then immediately replaced with an "active" ability that would make better use of your limited hotbar real estate.  For balancing purposes, that creates quite the conundrum.  On any given fight it's possible that your buffing classes would be contributing 15-20+ abilities that are "most effective against the upcoming enemy" while your non-buffing classes would be limited to 12.  That means that your LAS isn't being strictly enforced, that a degree of intelligent planning is being circumvented (by some classes), and that all classes need to be balanced around this realization.  For all intents and purposes, the LAS would be creating problems rather than doing it's job.

    Furthermore:

    "So yes, you are limited to that extent (you cannot simply use any of your 80+ abilities whenever you wish) because planning for the battle ahead and doing so effectively is key to Pantheon."

    Again, we see an emphasis on "planning for the battle ahead" while operating under the context that you cannot simply use any of your abilities whenever you wish.  Unless it's a design goal that managing buffs are exempt from intelligent planning, something has to give.  I have mentioned several times on this thread that I am a fan of long-term buffs.  I think they are a great component of the combat system as a whole, but only if they are consistent with the stated goals.  Planning your buffs intelligently should be just as important as planning your heals, taunts, debuffs, or nukes.

    In the end, I am not a fan of the LAS.  VR has stated multiple goals on their FAQ that can cause conflict with each other when tied down by an LAS.  On one hand they are emphasizing the need to intelligently plan ahead, and on the other hand, they are emphasizing a combat system that is "So tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible."

    Let's think about what that means.  It sounds ... intense.  There is supposed to be so much going on, with so many things to counter, and the timing of so many abilities crucial ... yet at the same time, all of this action is supposed to somehow be condensed within the LAS (limited action set).  These two goals are in direct opposition of each other and in the end, one of them is going to be compromised for the other.  There is no way to have your cake and eat it too in this context.  A far better option, in my opinion, would be to remove the LAS completely.  Long-term buffs already contradict the system as it's been outlined here.  There are better ways to "intelligently plan ahead" than playing a drag and drop spell-book mini-game.  Positioning, timing, situational gear, temporary buffs, group/raid composition, resource management, crowd control, cooldowns, synergy, and then the efficiency of all these things merged together ... I'd like to plan for all of that.  To be honest I would like to see "intelligent planning of long duration buffs" added to the mix as well, assuming it's facilitated by a "concentration mechanic."

    Just look at it this way.  If players have access to their full kits then NPC's will have access to theirs.  Combat can be more challenging, more demanding, and have less margin for error.  Now ... assuming that we cannot change our hotbars mid-combat, just imagine a situation where you get trained.  Oh, and the train happened while you were shuffling around in your spell-book.  Sorry shaman, you're stuck with 7 buffs on your bar (this is how it would feel with a real LAS system) and now you're going to be gimped for the fight.  People are sitting there messing around with their spell-book and their ability to react and deal with the problem that was just dropped in their lap is limited.

    I want this game to have a harsh death penalty and it would be pretty ridiculous if players had to wipe because they have the wrong hotbar loaded up at an inopportune time.  That isn't a matter of players having their backs against the wall ... that's players being handicapped by a non-immersive and artificial restriction of what spells and abilities they have memorized, and then being punished, severely, because of another restriction (cannot change bars while engaged in combat) that prevents them from being able to do anything about it.  I would like to see an emphasis on invisible roamers, staggered respawn timers/locations, sudden climate changes, and other surprises (like random archetypes/dispositions for adds that are summoned by a boss mid-fight) that cannot be prepared for.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 19, 2019 11:35 AM PST
    • 125 posts
    January 18, 2019 8:21 PM PST
    I really liked how certain abilities were incorporated into the mechanics of core skills and a limited by a 5 or 6 line macro system.

    Like evade, if you sneak during combat you lose aggro.
    You may not sneak if you’re auto attacking.

    So you made a macro
    1st line is turning off auto attack.
    Second is sneaking
    Third is again turning on auto attack because you don’t steal from your groupmates.
    On the fourth line you seriously turn on auto attack.

    Was there macros available for re mesmerizing spells? Like for all your longer buffs and what not? It doesn’t make it Barney style like some of you are suggesting but I think the macro system and having to flip pages to re cast long term buffs was efficient on its own and in itself the time nessessary to manage it is emersive in itself.
    • 1921 posts
    January 18, 2019 9:49 PM PST

    oneADseven said: ... That means that your LAS isn't being strictly enforced, that a degree of intelligent planning is being circumvented (by some classes), and that all classes need to be balanced around this realization.  ...

    There is no circumvention in this case, nor could there ever be, as the scope and enforcement of the LAS is strictly limited to: in-combat only.  Which is all that's been demonstrated in the videos thus far, and the only thing mentioned in the FAQ.

    • 303 posts
    January 18, 2019 9:58 PM PST

    I think it'd be nice if buffs with long duration didn't have to be memd

    • 3237 posts
    January 18, 2019 10:08 PM PST

    vjek said:

    There is no circumvention in this case, nor could there ever be, as the scope and enforcement of the LAS is strictly limited to: in-combat only.  Which is all that's been demonstrated in the videos thus far, and the only thing mentioned in the FAQ.

    If buffs (abilities/spells) offer an in-combat advantage then they should fall under the same "intelligent planning" umbrella as every other ability/spell in the game that does the same.  Why would they be exempt?  Meaningful this/that buff choices are a textbook example of intelligently using your abilities/spells to counter specific elements of the mob you are preparing to fight.  In order for that to be true, then the answer to the question asked in the OP is "No."  Buffs should not persist when removed from your bar.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 18, 2019 10:44 PM PST
    • 379 posts
    January 18, 2019 11:56 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    vjek said:

    There is no circumvention in this case, nor could there ever be, as the scope and enforcement of the LAS is strictly limited to: in-combat only.  Which is all that's been demonstrated in the videos thus far, and the only thing mentioned in the FAQ.

    If buffs (abilities/spells) offer an in-combat advantage then they should fall under the same "intelligent planning" umbrella as every other ability/spell in the game that does the same.  Why would they be exempt?  Meaningful this/that buff choices are a textbook example of intelligently using your abilities/spells to counter specific elements of the mob you are preparing to fight.  In order for that to be true, then the answer to the question asked in the OP is "No."  Buffs should not persist when removed from your bar.

    Think of it from another perspective - Intelligently remembering to take long duration buffs back off your bar would in fact make the LAS matter in terms of 'circumvention'. Case in point, that "oh ****" moment when you un-memmed random_ability_01 to buff and combat starts. I think everyone is spinning in circles here for no reason.

    • 1921 posts
    January 19, 2019 8:31 AM PST

    oneADseven said: If buffs (abilities/spells) offer an in-combat advantage then they should fall under the same "intelligent planning" umbrella as every other ability/spell in the game that does the same. 

    They do, already.  Cast anything you want out of combat.  Only cast from your in-combat bar, when in-combat.  Pretty simple.
    oneADseven said: Why would they be exempt?

    They're not, based on the current public design.  As has been explained several times.

    Fragile said:... I think everyone is spinning in circles here for no reason.

    Correct.

    The only thing they've demonstrated, shown, talked about, alluded to, posted about, given interviews on, and in any other way communicated is:  It will be like EQ1, except you can't change your spells in combat.  There's nothing to "fix".
    But the microsecond a developer says everything they've demonstrated, shown, talked about, alluded to, posted about, given interviews on, and in any other way communicated about this topic, to date, is wrong, and the community is mis-interpreting it?
    Then, at that point, after the developer drops that shoe?  Sounds like a great time to discuss in what way it might be different.

    • 3237 posts
    January 19, 2019 9:33 AM PST

    vjek said:

    They do, already.  Cast anything you want out of combat.  Only cast from your in-combat bar, when in-combat.  Pretty simple.

    Please show me a single interview or demonstration where any member of VR said that it's acceptable to use your buffs and then remove them from your bar.  It hasn't happened in a single stream that I know of.  I have watched many streams, though, where buffs were maintained on bars while their effects were being leveraged.  So while most players here understand that you can "circumvent" the LAS by cleverly manipulating the hotbar in between the hard in/out combat states, it's never been demonstrated from an official capacity.  It's clearly more efficient to do this, so why hasn't it been shown off?  I can think of a few reasons.  Being able to leverage the effects of an ability without having to commit a slot to it is antithetical to the intelligent planning that is emphasized with the LAS model.

    vjek said: They're not, based on the current public design.  As has been explained several times.  The only thing they've demonstrated, shown, talked about, alluded to, posted about, given interviews on, and in any other way communicated is:  It will be like EQ1, except you can't change your spells in combat.  There's nothing to "fix".  But the microsecond a developer says everything they've demonstrated, shown, talked about, alluded to, posted about, given interviews on, and in any other way communicated about this topic, to date, is wrong, and the community is mis-interpreting it?  Then, at that point, after the developer drops that shoe?  Sounds like a great time to discuss in what way it might be different.

    If you could please provide any evidence of these demonstrations, showcasings, conversations, allusions, posts, interviews, or other communications, that would be really helpful.  I have never heard of the LAS being referred to as an "in-combat bar."  I have seen it used to cast spells while out-of-combat extensively, though.  I have never heard them say "Cast anything you want while out of combat, but be limited to your LAS while in-combat" either.  They have always been one and the same.  Your actions are governed by the LAS regardless of whether or not you are in combat.  When did they say "It will be like EQ1, except you can't change your spells in combat."  --  that one isn't ringing a bell for me.  You are saying there is "nothing to fix" but also hold the position that "I expect they'll just allow all players to cast out of their spellbook, or utilizing any number of non-combat hotbars, out of combat.  But that's just me. :)"  Where is the consistency?  If there is nothing to fix, what makes you think they will deviate from EQ1 and allow players to cast directly from the spellbook?

    I remember reading, specifically, from Kilsin, that the LAS is not set in stone.

    ( https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/5qkhrq/limited_action_set_good_or_bad/ )

    He mentioned how combat can be even more challenging and tactical with unlimited ability slots and I wholeheartedly agree with him.  Even in the FAQ it says that you may be limited to a subset of your abilities for the next encounter.

    To give you another example of how players could circumvent the LAS, please consider the following combat scenarios:

    Rogues have a high powered attack with a 30 minute cooldown.  They use the attack.  After combat ends, they realize that it cannot be used again for 30 minutes.  At this point, it clearly makes sense to remove this ability from their bar since commiting a slot to it has zero benefit until the cooldown is refreshed.  In order to prevent this circumvention, there are a couple options.  They could make it so that if an ability is on cooldown it cannot be removed from your LAS.  They could also make it so that you can remove it from your LAS, but the cooldown ceases to tick while an LAS slot is not commited to that ability.

    Both options work but the key takeaway here is that they would have to create a workaround that prevents the exploitation of the LAS.  Are either of these options viable?  Is that how it worked in EQ?  If you think it makes sense to implement either of these options, why do you think that is?  To be honest it would be pretty horrible if players had to swap abilities out just because they are on an extended cooldown.  That would be really tedious game design and encourage circumvention.  They will either do something about that, or they won't.  If they do prevent said circumvention, that should show, without a doubt, that they don't want you to benefit from abilities/spells unless you have a slot committed to them on your LAS.

    Another example:

    Rogues get a 30 second buff that increases their attack speed significantly.  Would it make sense, then, for a rogue to use this ability right before a fight starts, and then swap it out for something else?  Even if that takes 10 seconds to do, they would still benefit from 66% of that ability without committing a slot, in-combat.  When games are designed to be challenging and difficult, players will look for any/every way to find an edge.  Players would feel compelled to use this workaround even though it would feel extremely gimmicky.  If you aren't doing it then you aren't being efficient, and when the game has a meaningful death penalty, that means you are putting your group at unnecessary risk.  If that temporary buff would fade when it's removed from the hotbar then that same logic should apply to long-term buffs as well.  Consistency is important and I have yet to hear anything that implies that managing buffs is exempt from "intelligent planning."  If anything else has been suggested then I must have missed the memo.

    Finally, let's also consider this quote from Brad:
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/179/we-want-details-and-specifics-please-explain-in-detail )

    "...I can reveal what we are generally trying to accomplish and the vision and thinking behind it, but it's too early to set number of slots or anything else in stone, specifics and the like.

    Fundamentally, what we're shooting for here is needing to plan for that next encounter, especially significant encounters (boss mobs and the like).  There should be a noticeable reward for prepping for an encounter properly vs. just running into combat without any forethought or tactics.

    There ideally shouldn't be a set of abilities that is always optimal.  It should change depending on where you are and what you are going up against.

    We don't want it to be so key that you are messing with your character's configuration all of the time (needlessly tedious).  Also any type of reconfiguration of your character, or anything really that you may end up doing relatively frequently needs to be supported by an intuitive and easy to use UI and interface.  But on the opposite extreme we do want people to learn about encounters, figure out tactics, etc. again the more so the more significant the mob.  As you learn a dungeon and master its significant or special encounters a big part of that process should be learning what kind of defensive and offensive capabilities these mobs have.  Also, their disposition and behaviors.  Running in blind or with minimal planning should put you at a disadvantage vs. the party that *did* plan.

    Of course, this extends beyond spells that you mem.  Situational gear should play a part as well.  Relics and artifacts should play an important role in the big fights.  Your group composition and how you work with others and not just individually should matter too.  The buffs you apply to yourself and party should matter.  Group positioning (both initial positioning and then re-positioning either based on a plan or in reaction to something the mob did or is about to do), depending on class, DPS, ability to tank or off-tank, etc. should be very important.  What we're trying to implement and reward are real tactics that give you an advantage over the party who just rushes in blindly with little to no thoughtful preparation.  In MMOs your characters abilities, items, etc. generally matter a lot.  Then comes buffs.  Then eventually actual tactics.

    I personally don't see one necessarily always being more important than the other.  Certainly, the items you are using, how you are buffed, etc. should matter a *lot*.  Pantheon will always be an item-centric and 'ability important' game.  But that by no means is a scenario where, at any given level, there's one optimal configuration and as long as you adhere to it, you'll be in good shape.  Items, stats, buffs, etc. will always be extremely important.  Having that optimal configuration vary depending on who you are, where you are, who you are with, etc.  is very important to us -- no 'one size fits all'."

    The main takeaway I observe from the above:

    There are a variety of ways to intelligently plan for the battle ahead, including:  Situational Gear, relics/artifacts, group composition, buff selection, positioning/repositioning, synergy, and tactics.  That list isn't comprehensive because I think all of the following would also apply:  Resource management, available cooldowns, timing, communication, crowd control, role assignments, primary/secondary/tertiary objectives, NPC archetype/disposition consideration, line of sight, situational awareness with respawns or pathers, climate/environment, and pulling strategy.  (Can you split the encounter up?  Do you need to utilize mezz/lull?)  The need to plan ahead can be realized without funneling preparation through the LAS.  Buff selection is supposed to matter a lot.  A concentration mechanic would be good for the buffing classes but should probably be avoided for non-buffing classes in order to prevent it from feeling like a gimmick for most classes, like it did in EQ2.  A bunch of classes had a variety of buffs forced into their arsenel in order to justify the existence of their available concentration slots but in the end, it only contributed to the hotbar bloat.  The vast majority of those buffs could have been passive, without an icon, and the game wouldn't have been played any differently.

    The LAS is not a make-or-break mechanic that the entire combat system is designed around.  It's an element, for sure, but it's not necessarily more important than any of the others, at least not in the sense that meaningful preparation cannot occur without it.  Seeing that buffs are supposed to be a major consideration of the preparation phase, I would again cite what has been described as "LAS Circumvention" as a legitimate issue.  The good news is that long-term buffs can remain, and that there can still be a heavy emphasis on planning for the upcoming battle.  Players can still enjoy a sense of "soft-specialization" by utilizing situational gear, intelligently planned buffs, and playing around the stat modifiers that are listed in the various ability descriptions.  Pantheon is supposed to be an evolved MMO and the combat system as a whole is going to be a major factor when it comes time for players to render a verdict.  I expect pioneering more than emulating when it comes to combat, specifically.  I want to see VR deliver on their goal of:

    10.4 Will multi-boxing be allowed in Pantheon?

    Our reaction to multi-boxing is to try something first before we even entertain the idea of artificially restricting it.  We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 19, 2019 4:00 PM PST
    • 1714 posts
    January 19, 2019 2:52 PM PST

    I think a severe in combat LAS is really horrible and I'm disappointed that they might be going this direction. People can go on and on about strategy and being prepared all they want, but at the end of the day this is going to plain suck when someone makes a simple mistake and forgets to mem something. That isn't a lack of skill or knowledge and it shouldn't hurt the group. Imagine if you go linkdead and your pet dies and you come back and you're still in combat and can't resummon another pet? Etc, etc, etc. You can enforce quality gameplay requiring people to know the encounters and be prepared without making people be unable to adjust during combat. I hates it. It seems like yet another try hard mechanic that they are coming up with just for the sake of doing something new. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at January 19, 2019 4:40 PM PST
    • 646 posts
    January 19, 2019 4:24 PM PST

    1AD has made excellent posts on this topic and I agree with pretty much everything (aside from me being perfectly okay with LAS system, while he tends to prefer the other form). So I'll just end with this...

    Keno Monster said:Imagine if you go linkdead and your pet dies and you come back and you're still in combat and can't resummon another pet?

    Pet summon ability is something you would keep on your bar. When the pet is out, the button becomes a command ability specifically for that pet. If you disconnect or your pet dies for any other reasoon, you can summon it again.

    • 313 posts
    January 19, 2019 6:23 PM PST

    I think there’s a lot of different perspectives regarding the LAS, its purpose, and its benefits which is making this discussion difficult.  I’m going to sum up how I view the LAS and attempt to do the same for people on the other side of the fence.  If I misstate anyone’s views, feel free to correct me.  I’m hoping that this will help everyone understand the issues better. 

    The aspect that I personally like is that the LAS fosters soft-specialization.  I like the idea that as a shaman, I might enjoy the role of off-healer/DPS and therefore slot in a few more DOTS, spirit companion, and crit buff.  Whereas another shaman might prefer being primary healer, and so he slots in as many healing and emergency spells as he can.  I think this is an important aspect of the game.  You don’t want a player feeling identical to every other player of the class.  Even if there is eventually a “meta” for which skills are “the best” to use, I still see a decent range of diversity happening—and that’s very valuable IMO. 

    The problem is that due to their passive/situational/non-combat nature, certain skills feel very disappointing when viewed through the lens of LAS specialization.  If we are limited to 12 skills and you take a handful of buffs, a decurse, and a rez skill, now you’re practically a passive buff bot.  The LAS treats all skills identically, even though there’s a large divide between most skills in terms of how useful they are or how situational they are.  Discussing this issue was really the motivation behind my original post here, and I had hoped that people would jump on board the idea of a secondary bar that would be a home to these important but, well, secondary skills.  Because like I’ve said, if you can get the benefit of buffs and other skills without having to take up one of your 12 spots during combat, then what’s the point of restricting them to one of those 12 spots?  Some people have liked this idea of a secondary bar, and others have agreed about the fundamental problem with how the LAS works... but their solution is to get rid of the LAS altogether (@1AD7).

    However, it seems like some people view the LAS as just a contemporaneous limitation on the number of skills you can have access to.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If a class has spells that do x, y, and z, my ultimate vision of the LAS is that I end up as a character that can do x and y.   They view it as their character can do x, y, and z—just with a little finagling of their skill bar.  This explains their frustration with not being able to change memorized skills during combat.  It makes perfect sense to me, because those are choices I made for who my character is going to be.  But for them it seems like an arbitrary limitation.  Their character isn’t supposed to just be the skills on their bar right now. 

    Again, apologies if I made incorrect assumptions or conclusions about your views.  But if this is all accurate, then my question is why do you think having the LAS be a quasi-fixed choices is a good design, aside from “that’s how EQ did it.”?  It seems to me that a quasi-limit is 90% tedium and 10% strategy, and it would probably be better to just do away with a LAS if you’re not really limiting people at all. 


    This post was edited by zoltar at January 19, 2019 6:36 PM PST
    • 379 posts
    January 19, 2019 6:56 PM PST

    After sifting through most of this thread now, I believe that the LAS should just be scrapped and allow you to swap/mem spells and abilities in combat. However, I think that there should be a fixed amount of spells/abilities (like it is now) on your hotbar akin to the EQ spell slots. Currently, I think that is 12 (EQ had a base of 8?) - which seems fair. Also letting buffs persist for the entirety of their natural duration seems like a no brainer.

    • 25 posts
    January 19, 2019 8:32 PM PST

    All I gata say is thank god the people who think buffs should be short, have their own bar or fade when the spell is replace are not developing the game....  rofl