Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Should spells/buffs persist after removed from bar?

    • 3237 posts
    January 11, 2019 6:53 PM PST

    If someone could please share an example of any other game that utilizes a strictly enforced LAS (governed by the in/out combat distinction) that also features long-term combated related buffs that need to be cycled in and out (or used from separate non-combat hotbars), I would like to do some research on that game.  I mentioned earlier that this design feels like an unchartered middle-ground because I have never seen it applied elsewhere.  Regardless of how any of us interpret or define what an LAS is, or is supposed to do, I feel pretty strongly that the current implementation is what's awkward.  They specifically mention the need for players to intelligently plan which abilities they can utilize to their advantage in the upcoming fight.  To me, it doesn't feel intelligent to "circumvent the LAS"  --  it's more like tediously conforming to an awkward implementation for the sake of being efficient.  Efficiency is pretty important when you're dealing with a challenging and intensely tactical game that has a meaningful death penalty.

    I think the disconnect here Vjek is that there is a segment of the population who has experience with a strictly enforced LAS, and in those experiences, there was always an emphasis on "meaningful choices."  There are multiple people on this thread (and in Discord) who said they would prefer if applied buffs would fade if the caster of those buffs removed them from their LAS.  That, in a nutshell, would properly capture the idea that players would have to intelligently memorize the proper spells that will be effective and beneficial to them for the upcoming fight, in the context of how an LAS is widely perceived to function in the gaming community.  Whether it's circumventing the LAS, gaming the system, or something else entirely, it feels awkward.  At the end of the day, my preference would be to scrap the LAS.  My opinion might change when it becomes more clear how VR plans on accomplishing both of the stated goals that I have shared in this thread.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 12, 2019 12:16 AM PST
    • 313 posts
    January 11, 2019 7:13 PM PST

    Project Gorgon has a LAS.  AFAIK buffs last about 1 minute max.

    • 483 posts
    January 12, 2019 3:45 AM PST

    Full disclose I didn't read all the replies, so if someone already sugested something similar I'm sorry.

    I would like to see something similar to buffs not persisting after being removed, it makes for more meaningul choises and makes having 2 of the same in a group, more valuable.

    But I wouldn't go with a strict "if it's not memorized in the 12 actionbar slot" them it wears off. I would much rather see a 3-4 slot "mini buff actionbar" that allows you to memorize only buffs, and the buffs that are on this "mini buff actionbar" can only be cast outside of combat. 

    If you wish to cast buffs while in combat, them you must memorized them in the "main actionbar" so for example thing like short duration buffs (aka combat buffs, like fear ward, damage reduction shields, tempory absorbs etc,) all go on the main action bar, and the long duration buffs (AC, HP, DEX, etc) all go on a separate action bar, that does not take up slots from more active combat abilities.

    This would also solve the need to constantly re-memorize spells whenever a new group member needs buffs, or a buff wears off.

     

    This 3-4 slot "mini action bar" idea could also be aplied to other aspects of the game, like the active racial abilities, and the active abilities that have really long cooldowns, because one of 2 things will happen with the racial and long cooldowns abilities, they will either be mandatory because they're so powerfull, or never get used because they're a bit underpowered and just "waste" an action bar slot, so everyone will have them memorized on the action bar as part of the "best set-up possible" if they're indeed really powerfull, this will lead to less variety in "builds" because 2-3 abilities will always be the same (talking about things like huge damage reduction for tanks, healing cooldowns that boost healing done for healears, Damage incresases for the Damage dealers, and those spells that in general are very powerfull, but have a 10-30 minute cooldown time).

     

    • 627 posts
    January 12, 2019 4:51 AM PST
    I'm a fan of the out of combat bar for buffs and utility.

    The short duration buff like shaman Primal Fury:

    Ancestral Boon. Fills your ally with primal fury, increasing their critical strike chance of physical and magical abilities by X%. While active, every successful critical strike will further increase their critical strike chance up to Y% for the duration of the effect.

    Will need to be slotted in the active combat bar to be available. Game will release in 2020 or later some quality of life is good and will make the game experiance feel more flewtly and pleasant.

    Adjustment of the combat bar is still there and players need be smart in order to get through the content.
    • 646 posts
    January 12, 2019 10:05 AM PST

    jpedrote said:This 3-4 slot "mini action bar" idea could also be aplied to other aspects of the game, like the active racial abilities, and the active abilities that have really long cooldowns, because one of 2 things will happen with the racial and long cooldowns abilities, they will either be mandatory because they're so powerfull, or never get used because they're a bit underpowered and just "waste" an action bar slot, so everyone will have them memorized on the action bar as part of the "best set-up possible" if they're indeed really powerfull, this will lead to less variety in "builds" because 2-3 abilities will always be the same (talking about things like huge damage reduction for tanks, healing cooldowns that boost healing done for healears, Damage incresases for the Damage dealers, and those spells that in general are very powerfull, but have a 10-30 minute cooldown time).

    3-4 slots is likely as many long-term buffs as any given class will have (if not more). This means there would be no thought or choice that would go into putting these on your "buff bar". So then, what really is the point? To give you a button to press once an hour? To make it more convenient so you don't have to game the system by swapping buttons out of combat just for your buffs? There's nothing particularly engaging about long-term buffs, especially not in an LAS system.

    As for your concern about being unable to balance short-term buffs... Consider that this is a group-based game. I have to fall back on WildStar as an example of this with an LAS, as it's the one I'm most familiar with, but Power Link (and Bloodthirst, and Void Pact, and a number of other buffs) was a very powerful ability. However, there was no need for every single warrior to put it on their bar - nor was it really required to complete content (just in case you didn't have a group with a warrior, which was not an uncommon thing to happen). It was a nice bonus that certainly helped groups succeed at encounters, but it wasn't 100% required.

    • 483 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:21 AM PST

    Naunet said:

    3-4 slots is likely as many long-term buffs as any given class will have (if not more). This means there would be no thought or choice that would go into putting these on your "buff bar". So then, what really is the point? To give you a button to press once an hour? To make it more convenient so you don't have to game the system by swapping buttons out of combat just for your buffs? There's nothing particularly engaging about long-term buffs, especially not in an LAS system.

    As for your concern about being unable to balance short-term buffs... Consider that this is a group-based game. I have to fall back on WildStar as an example of this with an LAS, as it's the one I'm most familiar with, but Power Link (and Bloodthirst, and Void Pact, and a number of other buffs) was a very powerful ability. However, there was no need for every single warrior to put it on their bar - nor was it really required to complete content (just in case you didn't have a group with a warrior, which was not an uncommon thing to happen). It was a nice bonus that certainly helped groups succeed at encounters, but it wasn't 100% required.

    I'm pretty sure there will be more than 4 long duration buffs on healing/support classes. and having a system like this will promote bringing multiple of the same classe to groups and raids, to cover every possible buffs wihout having to sacrifice and active ability slot.

    So what's the point in having buffs to you, if you consider them just a minor task to do every hour or so why even have them. To me buffs shouldn't be an inconvenience, they should be a perk for grouping with other players and other classes, that's why I don't want to see the extra anoying step o nedding to re-memorize buffs in order to cast them, instead I'm sugesting a systm that will actually make you think what buffs you choose to aply to others, as opposed to switching to the "buff setup" where you load every single buffs, cast it on the group and load the combat spells again.

    Sorry but what's LAS I don't know what it is.

    Nothing is 100% required in a game, but handicaping yourself by not picking the best possible setup does not feel good or fair to the other players in the group because above all this is a grouping game where death as consequences so not being the best you possibly can be in a group is disrepecfull to the other players grouping with you.

    Limiting the variety of ability options a players can put in their bars because 2-3 abilities are practically "mandatory" because they're so usefull and invaluable in difficult situations does not seem like good gameplay design to me. Having a system where the long cooldown abilities are usable without having to take up a main action bar slot, and remain innactive for 90% of the gameplay time, will lead to a much larger build variety due to the extra 2-3 slots being used on more obscure abilites, taht would normally never get picked into the main action bar.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at January 12, 2019 11:30 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:46 AM PST

    What you're describing is pretty similar to how concentration worked in EQ2, jpedrote.  Every class had a variety of abilities that they could use that would take up one of their 5 concentration slots.  This worked great for a class like enchanter, for example, because their big haste buff was single target and required concentration.  Depending on your group composition, you might want to put that haste ability on 3 other players ... but once you get to that point, it will likely come at the expense of something else.  I can't remember all of the buffs they had but I think they had a self buff, a group buff that provided INT, a group mana buff, etc.  Again, for a class like enchanter, concentration worked great.  For the majority of other classes, though, concentration was a failed gimmick, and it ultimately lead to hotbar bloat, IMO.  The reason why is because the devs seemed to want to emphasize the concentration mechanic ... so every class in the game received  fluff-buffs to fill up these concentration slots and make use of the mechanic, but 90% of them never had any meaningful choices to make.  They could have made every single one of those buffs passive and it wouldn't have made any difference in how the game was played.  Using them required nothing more than an inconsequential click, and their existence only served as extra filler for hotbars that already felt somewhat bloated.

    In the end, I think a concentration-like mechanic can be really great for classes that offer meaningful buffs.  The LAS term is defined as "Limited Action Set"  --  it's the idea that you have X amount of abilities but can only cast a portion of them at any given time.  It's designed to make players think about what they are up against and prioritize that limited hotbar real esate with abilities/spells that are particularly useful for that battle.  If buffs ended up getting their own little mini bar, it could almost be called an "LUS" or "Limited Utility Set."  I think there is merit in that approach but the only concern I would have is that I wouldn't want it to feel the same way concentration did in EQ2, for most classes.  For bards/enchanters and some other classes who actually have choices to make?  Sure, an LUS could feel great for them.  If other classes don't have meaningful choices to make then they shouldn't have the LUS.  That was the issue in EQ2 ... concentration felt like a contrived mechanic for most classes that had no meaningful impact on gameplay.  It was forced onto the majority in a really gimmicky way just so that it could be meaningful for a few classes.

    At the same time, the disconnect we have here is that when you have a class like enchanter ... they are a support class.  Being able to provide meaningful buffs is a staple of that class and when you think about what an LAS is, and what it's designed to do, their "Support and CC" abilities should absolutely be enveloped into that same LAS.  It doesn't really make sense if a rogue is limited to 12 slots and isn't able to offer any value outside of them because they don't have buffs they can cast on others.  Now think about an enchanter who can cast all of their buffs and then replace them with something else.  Many people have tried explaining how this is "LAS Circumvention"  --  that is exactly what it is.  An LAS is designed to make players intelligently think about the abilities/spells that will help them in the upcoming battle, and to memorize them.  It's designed to create "Choose this, or that" situations.  When all is said and done playing the spellbook mini-game can lead to one class providing benefits from 10+ abilities that aren't regulated by the LAS, and then having 12 additional abilities that they do have committed to the LAS.  How could they balance something like that?  It sounds like a nightmare.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 12, 2019 12:05 PM PST
    • 332 posts
    January 12, 2019 11:57 AM PST

    That is are point , the system makes perfect sense.

    Granted eq2 did have some cheesy buffs , but that was eq2 and even you stated the system made sense for "specific" class but not other's .

    This is not eq2 , the solution .. make worthwhile buffs for those other classes so it is not a "gimick".


    This post was edited by Xxar at January 12, 2019 11:58 AM PST
    • 483 posts
    January 12, 2019 12:16 PM PST

    @oneADseven

    I can deffinetly agree on the EQ2 ability bloat, i never player the game seriously, but that are way to many freaking spells on that game xd.

    Thanks for clarifying what LAS means ahah, wasn't getting the acronym.

    As I said above I don't see long duration buffs as a major part of gameplay, that should require a time sink anoyance like the EQ1 rememorizing mehcanic, but I also don't want to see it go the way of wow where it's just a click the buff once an hour and be done with it, I think that having a system similar to concentration or the mini-bars would be great, but all the support/healer classes need to have enough long duration buffs to allow them meaningfull decesion when the time comes to fill that mini-bar, and to avoid the EQ2 situation where some classes just have a click and be done with it buff choice due to only having 1-2 long duration buffs, those long duration buffs should be reserved for healing/support and caster classes (so only the support/heal and caster classes would have acces to this mini-bar or concentration mechanic, tanks and melee DPS wouldn't use this mechanic).

    The melee and tank classes should focus on having short term buffs (memorized on the main 12 slot action bar) that can boost the party efficiency in though situations, instead of having 1-2 buffs that serve no gameplay pourpouse what so ever and might as well be a passive. Or you know give tanks and melee classes, party wide passives, that will make for some interesting raid setup organization, making it necessary to distribute different classes throughout the various groups in the raid, to ensure every group has the passives they need the most.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at January 12, 2019 12:30 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 12, 2019 12:24 PM PST

    Xxar said:

    That is are point , the system makes perfect sense.

    Granted eq2 did have some cheesy buffs , but that was eq2 and even you stated the system made sense for "specific" class but not other's .

    This is not eq2 , the solution .. make worthwhile buffs for those other classes so it is not a "gimick".

    It's not that simple.  They tried to "make worthwhile buffs for those other classes" and that's exactly what ended up being a gimmick.  Again, concentration works great for classes like an enchanter because a big part of their kit is centered around the idea of using their own abilities to bolster their allies.  When you have a class that is designed to offer powerful buffs to other players, concentration works great.  You have access to a variety of buffs, and have a group full of eager allies who want more than you could ever give ... but not everybody can get what they want.  That's where the enchanter has to "concentrate" and pick and choose who gets what based on things like the group composition or the upcoming battle.

    Compare that to a class like the rogue.  Rogues are a melee DPS class and they aren't really designed to have buffs that they use to bolster their allies.  That's what the enchanter is for.  The rogue is a great candidate, though, for those enchanter buffs.  That is legitimate synergy right there and it plays into the whole idea of having important roles/archetypes in the quaternity model.  So, going along with what you are suggesting here, let's consider what EQ2 tried doing in the context of "make worthwhile buffs for those other classes so it is not a gimmick."  They created worthwhile buffs ... for every class.  If you didn't use those buffs, you would be critically handicapping yourself.

    So now you have all these classes who have worthwhile buffs, but since they are all self buffs, where are the meaningful choices to make?  The enchanter has to decide whether it's worth giving the monk in the group a haste buff (the ranger and rogue already have it) but understands that if they do give the monk that buff, they will have to drop their own self buff that grants INT and maximum mana.  They have 5 concentration slots to work with and many combinations of how they can utilize their wide range of buffs to the best of their ability.  It's the complete opposite of giving non-buffing classes a bunch of self buffs that could never compete with that kind of dynamic decision making process.

    Unless you're suggesting that all classes get buffs that they can cast on other players (like enchanters) or that all non-buffing classes get 10 self buffs to choose from, while only being able to utilize 5 at any given point in time, what kind of solution is there, really?  Would it actually be a good idea to give a class like the rogue 10 self buffs to choose from?  I don't think it would be.  If you give every class a ton of self buffs to choose from then you're muddying the quaternity and class/role interdependence.  You would be taking away from what makes the utility classes like bard/enchanter unique just to make the "concentration mechanic" worthwhile for other classes.  Sounds like a huge plate of gimmick with a side of class identity crisis that gets washed down with a "solution."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 12, 2019 12:55 PM PST
    • 429 posts
    January 12, 2019 12:37 PM PST

    @zoltar you mention PG , great game btw .  Have tested n played it since 2012 . 

    Here's the thing PG is a skill type game . (half a dozen animal forms, dozen combat , 2 dozen trades , and 2 dozen other skills all on one char ) . 

     Was only a couple years a go that Pg decided to stop in combat changing skills ( I applaud Eric for that change ) because when you have access to all classes/animal/combat whatnot even during combat you belittle the content .  Having said that I also recall Eq , Pantheon is class bases (similar to but more modern ) .  We all were all not only able to  react but to act based on the situation the group make up / raid make up /situaction .  we were able to use whatever spell we bought/found/learn , casted memmed in combat/out of combat ... to me that was a great decision because it was not a shaman casting warrior abilities ( limited by class abilities ) . this was acting/reacting/using my class to the best of (MY) abilities . 

    Not a deal breaker if i can't change my spells ( not skills ) during combat .  What is problomatic IMHO is long term buffs going away cause i changed my spells/skills . 

    Part of what made those long lasting games is COMMUNITY , part of what Pantheon is all about . 

    What is Community ?  Is it not about helping others ? Buffs/Gear/a few coin perhaps ? ( even info ) . 

      Well i Am all for long term buffs , Im all for helping others , all for making Pantheon great . (buffing is not a chore nor has it ever been in any game I've played ) .  Let's make buffs great again (okay bad pun ) . What does make it a chore is walking along road buffing pally with speed/str/stam/ whatnot . then see a nice group (full) buff them up cause they not have shaman . then meet up with guildies change all my spells leaving all others ( Sugar Honey Iced Tea out of luck ) . well you get my drift .  That in no way makes the community better , nor grouping , nor meeting people . nor anything but self centered . nor does it make the game better .

     Being able to exchange spells during combat (IMHO) make a person more active n reactive (you always know a good player versus bad player ) not to mention 12 spells before i do a encounter only means i got 12 buttons to push :) . does not make me more active or better . 

    Either way , I believe in the first original goals of Pantheon , taking whats best about the (old school ) games introducing the new .Buffing was IMO a good thing , lost in many games today /helpful/buffing ( instead thinking its a chore , only a chore if you have to cast them every frig'ing min ) offering gear you've outgrown ( instead of everything being bind on equip ) . many upon many things made a community .   Not deal breaker just sad .

     


    This post was edited by Shea at January 12, 2019 2:14 PM PST
    • 332 posts
    January 12, 2019 8:44 PM PST

    @oneADseven That's all perspective in the rebuttle , as I stated there can be worthwhile buffs or abilitys for each class. 

    This can be controlled by amount of concentration slots to keep it balanced .

    Why can't a rogue have a raid wide dps buff that is comparable to a raid wide dps buff of a enchanter  ?

    The difference might be the cost or the abilitys even stack. ie The enchanters might cost 2 for the raid or group wide version and the rogues cost all 5.

    That lead's to meaniful choices , that same rogue might also have a poison weapon ability at the cost of 1 concentration but has a overall higher dps mod for a single target, then a raid wide version of a different  ability.

    Now the added bonus , a raid might want to run 2 or 3 rogues , to max out all the abilitys for there set up . 1 rogue doing the raid wide , the other 2 mixing it with the dps single target mod on the top dps, just giving as a example. This leads to in general no unwanted class or limits on classes imo. That being the ultimate goal for a game built on holy trinity.

    The entire point on that subject , is it boils down to the developers over all idea of the ability and how it can fall into the system , not the other way around so that it does not become a gimick.

    Alot of this is all based on nothing , until we can get raid size numbers , hard caps and soft caps ... it's talk to simply talk :)

     


    This post was edited by Xxar at January 12, 2019 8:51 PM PST
    • 646 posts
    January 13, 2019 11:07 AM PST

    Xxar said:That lead's to meaniful choices , that same rogue might also have a poison weapon ability at the cost of 1 concentration but has a overall higher dps mod for a single target, then a raid wide version of a different  ability.

    Now the added bonus , a raid might want to run 2 or 3 rogues , to max out all the abilitys for there set up . 1 rogue doing the raid wide , the other 2 mixing it with the dps single target mod on the top dps, just giving as a example. This leads to in general no unwanted class or limits on classes imo. That being the ultimate goal for a game built on holy trinity.

    The entire point on that subject , is it boils down to the developers over all idea of the ability and how it can fall into the system , not the other way around so that it does not become a gimick.

    This kind of situation can and has happened without long-term chore buffs. I remain unconvinced that we need some kind of extra buff UI on top of the LAS, when I've seen the LAS work perfectly fine in other MMOs (and without long-term chore buffs).

    • 334 posts
    January 13, 2019 11:51 AM PST

    I think this discussion highlights the difficulty of trying to create a hybridized system between LAS (limited action-set) and non-LAS systems. Many iconic abilities (including many long-term buffs) that make sense in an unrestricted system like EQ create real challenges for the combat designers in a LAS system. The last thing players need is a situation in which they end up fighting with their own UI, dealing with a complicated system that forces them to be continuously dragging and dropping abilities/spells on/off their hotbar to be "optimal."

    I make the claim that Pantheon is going for a hybridized system because, typically, when you're designing combat abilities/spells for a LAS system, those spells and abilities are much more focused and you typically don't see the types of long-term buffs/long-cooldown abilities/spells that EQ/EQ2 had.

    A secondary hotbar for buffs seems somewhat counter-intuitive to the purpose of a LAS system, yet, as it stands, it really does seem like a necessity for Pantheon's current design (and for what we've seen in some abilities/spells). I think the devs should reconsider this current direction and either really focus on creating a true LAS system that isn't going to end up frustrating players (which would result in losing long-term buffs), or abandoning it all-together and focus on creating engaging combat with an unrestricted system.

    • 1479 posts
    January 13, 2019 2:18 PM PST

    Sicario said:

    I think this discussion highlights the difficulty of trying to create a hybridized system between LAS (limited action-set) and non-LAS systems. Many iconic abilities (including many long-term buffs) that make sense in an unrestricted system like EQ create real challenges for the combat designers in a LAS system. The last thing players need is a situation in which they end up fighting with their own UI, dealing with a complicated system that forces them to be continuously dragging and dropping abilities/spells on/off their hotbar to be "optimal."

    I make the claim that Pantheon is going for a hybridized system because, typically, when you're designing combat abilities/spells for a LAS system, those spells and abilities are much more focused and you typically don't see the types of long-term buffs/long-cooldown abilities/spells that EQ/EQ2 had.

    A secondary hotbar for buffs seems somewhat counter-intuitive to the purpose of a LAS system, yet, as it stands, it really does seem like a necessity for Pantheon's current design (and for what we've seen in some abilities/spells). I think the devs should reconsider this current direction and either really focus on creating a true LAS system that isn't going to end up frustrating players (which would result in losing long-term buffs), or abandoning it all-together and focus on creating engaging combat with an unrestricted system.

     

    Frankly I really don't think so. I read the whole topic, and got to the conclusion a buff bar goes against the purpose of pantheon as it allows to access to more abilities than intended at a specific time, and increase the value of buffing class as a whole as they have access to their whole setup of buffs anytime while classes having little to no buff won't.

    It's neither a necessity, or anything but a lightening of the management of buffs. I'm fine with stances bar covering specific class mechanics (pets, stances, etc...) but if it comes to the point a buffing class does access all it's spell panel anytime while a debuffing class would be limitated to 12 slots and choices to make, nope.

    Tedious is something players use to name activities they don't like, but they can be good for the game itself by forcing choices, coordination, proper rebuff moments or periodic rebuffs at the cost of one utility spell. It will sort the good from the bad player stuck in combat with 12 buffs and no active spell.

    • 313 posts
    January 13, 2019 2:58 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Frankly I really don't think so. I read the whole topic, and got to the conclusion a buff bar goes against the purpose of pantheon as it allows to access to more abilities than intended at a specific time, and increase the value of buffing class as a whole as they have access to their whole setup of buffs anytime while classes having little to no buff won't.

    It's neither a necessity, or anything but a lightening of the management of buffs. I'm fine with stances bar covering specific class mechanics (pets, stances, etc...) but if it comes to the point a buffing class does access all it's spell panel anytime while a debuffing class would be limitated to 12 slots and choices to make, nope.

    Tedious is something players use to name activities they don't like, but they can be good for the game itself by forcing choices, coordination, proper rebuff moments or periodic rebuffs at the cost of one utility spell. It will sort the good from the bad player stuck in combat with 12 buffs and no active spell.

    Very presumptive to say it goes against the intentions of Pantheon when they have thus far been clear in stating that the details of the LAS and number of skills have yet to be determined.  Furthremore, allowing the buffs to persist essentially does the exact thing you accuse a buff/secondary bar of doing... BTW, a secondary bar would benefit more than just buffing classes.   There are a plethora of other skills that other classes will be constantly switching in, casting, then switching out.  Summoner has all those group utility spells.  Wizards and druids will have ports.  Rogues will be using skills to coat their weapons in poison, summon rope, disarm traps, etc.   Rangers have tracking, scouting, and trapping abilites.  

    Bottom line is that most ablities can either be classified as core/major abilities that you're going to keep on your bar for combat or minor/fluff/situational/OOC abilities.  It makes a hell of a lot of sense to have a different mechanic for the different types of skills.  Some skills (including many debuffs) blur the lines, and can be addressed on a case by case basis.  I don't see any issue with allowing for some debuffs to be put on the secondary bar, just as some buffs may need to be classified as primary skills.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at January 13, 2019 2:58 PM PST
    • 18 posts
    January 14, 2019 2:56 PM PST

    If we replace 'buff' with 'pet/summon/familiar' do we get the same answer? In other words should summoned pets remain when their spell has been removed from the LAS? 

    I think there's a lot of good discussion here. It seems that VR is not set on a particular system yet, but they have said that they want our skill choice to matter. I'm looking forward to the implementation in the next test, and I'm sure they have some great ideas for how they want this system to function. 

    • 646 posts
    January 14, 2019 3:00 PM PST

    sidis said:If we replace 'buff' with 'pet/summon/familiar' do we get the same answer? In other words should summoned pets remain when their spell has been removed from the LAS?

    No, they should not IMO, which is why I suggest VR designs the pet summon ability similar to how engineer bots functioned in WildStar. That is, the summon button turns into an ability command button when the pet is out/alive. Keeps it from becoming just a dead slot in your LAS.

    • 25 posts
    January 14, 2019 7:22 PM PST

    Buffs should most definitely continue after they are removed from your spell bar.  Your only going to have 10 spells memed at any one time. Buffs will last 30 or so minutes, so wasting a slot just to cast it every 30 minutes is crazy..  Plus buffs are not like a channeled spell like a bard song is. Once the spell is cast the effect is applied and that's that. '

     

    Something to remember here is that Pantheon is a game that is going hold true to the style of play that made EQ loved and cherished and changing something like this would greatly adversely affect the game and the way it's played.  Don't break something that isn't broken.


    This post was edited by macgregoroi at January 14, 2019 7:28 PM PST
    • 483 posts
    January 18, 2019 12:07 PM PST

    macgregoroi said:

    Buffs should most definitely continue after they are removed from your spell bar.  Your only going to have 10 spells memed at any one time. Buffs will last 30 or so minutes, so wasting a slot just to cast it every 30 minutes is crazy..  Plus buffs are not like a channeled spell like a bard song is. Once the spell is cast the effect is applied and that's that. '

     

    Something to remember here is that Pantheon is a game that is going hold true to the style of play that made EQ loved and cherished and changing something like this would greatly adversely affect the game and the way it's played.  Don't break something that isn't broken.

    So now I ask what’s the difference between having to memorize the buff first, cast it and take it off the bar again to memorize another spell, compared to simply having the buff be a free cast spell that doesn’t need to be memorized?

    Or as I suggested having a small 2-3 slot action bar only for buffs that will make you choose what buffs you decided to give the party, because they only persist when memorized.

     

    @Naunet

    Great suggestion, about the summon ability becoming and actual useful ability after the pet is summoned, but that makes me also think that it would be more beneficial to have a specify slot outside of the main 12 action bar, because then every summoner would have at least 1 ability be the same for every build, not the worst thing I know, but something to think about

    • 1479 posts
    January 18, 2019 12:40 PM PST

    jpedrote said:

    So now I ask what’s the difference between having to memorize the buff first, cast it and take it off the bar again to memorize another spell, compared to simply having the buff be a free cast spell that doesn’t need to be memorized?

    Or as I suggested having a small 2-3 slot action bar only for buffs that will make you choose what buffs you decided to give the party, because they only persist when memorized.

     

     

    You know, as long as you consider differences insignifiant, you're going to get deeper in shortcuts. Because what the difference now with a buff on a slot bar or an automated buff aura-like that you don't even have to cast because, since it's on a separate bar, it lacks the need to be strategically used.

     

    In the end, from a buff system you go to a perma buff one and the game just got jabed in the knee. Differences matter, even if they are meaningless or inexistant to you, they are important.

    • 483 posts
    January 18, 2019 12:58 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

     

    You know, as long as you consider differences insignifiant, you're going to get deeper in shortcuts. Because what the difference now with a buff on a slot bar or an automated buff aura-like that you don't even have to cast because, since it's on a separate bar, it lacks the need to be strategically used.

     

    In the end, from a buff system you go to a perma buff one and the game just got jabed in the knee. Differences matter, even if they are meaningless or inexistant to you, they are important.

    Except they still need to be strategically used, because you can only cast it outside of combat and they still cost mana to cast, and dont forget that in my suggestion you would only have 2-3 slots for 4-5 buffs, so you need to choose which ones you'll have active, wich also promotes having more than 1 of each class in groups.

    Changes can be made to the EQ formula it doesn't need to be exaclty like EQ, because EQ was not a perfect game, now drawing parallel and saying that changing a cluncky mechanic that was left from EQ will lead to the game getting stabbed on the knee is ridiculous, specially when the outcome of the gameplay would stay exatly the same (mabe even more intricate forcing more decision on the players isntead of load the buff step up, buff everyone and load the combat set-up again).

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:19 PM PST

    When did long term buffs become a chore? Has anyone in the history of gaming said "Gee, I wish this AC/Regen buff I cast on myself would wear off in 10 minutes instead of 30"? Short term button mashing is the chore. The entire reason people are having this discussion is because of the bloat we see in so many other games today, where you have 80+ different skills and spells on hotbars all around your screen. Having long term buffs you can mem once in a while and not have to worry about for an hour, or whatever, is fantastic. Imagine how absolutely awful it's going to be for buffing classes to have to redo buffs mid fight all the time. Talk about garbage gameplay. 

    • 438 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:27 PM PST
    I can honestly say I’ve never said I wish this 1h buff would wear off in 10m @Keno Monster

    Also agreed 100% with what you said
    • 646 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:43 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:Imagine how absolutely awful it's going to be for buffing classes to have to redo buffs mid fight all the time. Talk about garbage gameplay.

    They're... buffing classes. Their role would be to provide buffs in combat, and buffs can be a lot more engaging than "press button and forget".