Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

No to mods, but yes to customization

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 6:39 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Anything beyond changing the color, position or size of a UI window shouldn't be allowed. No Modding at all, even adding more Hot keys slots would be an advantage.

    I would consider adding extra hotkey slots to be beyond the scope of UI modification, as it is actually game-changing in its effect.

    But why shouldn't I be able to reorganize windows to display existing information where I want it to, such as grouping my xp bar with my health and mana bars if they are by default in separate windows? How does that in any way constitute an advantage? 

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 6:52 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    Anything beyond changing the color, position or size of a UI window shouldn't be allowed. No Modding at all, even adding more Hot keys slots would be an advantage.

    I would consider adding extra hotkey slots to be beyond the scope of UI modification, as it is actually game-changing in its effect.

    But why shouldn't I be able to reorganize windows to display existing information where I want it to, such as grouping my xp bar with my health and mana bars if they are by default in separate windows? How does that in any way constitute an advantage? 

     

    are you talking about merging windows?

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 6:57 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Chanus said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    Anything beyond changing the color, position or size of a UI window shouldn't be allowed. No Modding at all, even adding more Hot keys slots would be an advantage.

    I would consider adding extra hotkey slots to be beyond the scope of UI modification, as it is actually game-changing in its effect.

    But why shouldn't I be able to reorganize windows to display existing information where I want it to, such as grouping my xp bar with my health and mana bars if they are by default in separate windows? How does that in any way constitute an advantage? 

     

    are you talking about merging windows?

    Essentially. Or being able to drag/drop elements or go into the XML file and apply existing and accessible labels to what windows I want.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:02 AM PDT

    If, Merging or “docking” is part of the UI by default, as I suspect the ability to move or resize would be, then I don't see an issue with it. However if it requires modding or altering files, with exception to Theme or skin files (ART), I would be against it.

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:05 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    If, Merging or “docking” is part of the UI by default, as I suspect the ability to move or resize would be, then I don't see an issue with it. However if it requires modding or altering files, with exception to Theme or skin files (ART), I would be against it.

    Why, though? Assuming it's just moving around information that is already available to every player and not adding elements that don't already exist.

    I also don't have a problem with people creating things like DPS meters using chat log files, but I would consider that a separate aspect of modding.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:09 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    If, Merging or “docking” is part of the UI by default, as I suspect the ability to move or resize would be, then I don't see an issue with it. However if it requires modding or altering files, with exception to Theme or skin files (ART), I would be against it.

    Why, though? Assuming it's just moving around information that is already available to every player and not adding elements that don't already exist.

    I also don't have a problem with people creating things like DPS meters using chat log files, but I would consider that a separate aspect of modding.

     

    Because its a “feature” not available to everyone, any modding to add features no matter how trivial should not be allowed.

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:12 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Chanus said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    If, Merging or “docking” is part of the UI by default, as I suspect the ability to move or resize would be, then I don't see an issue with it. However if it requires modding or altering files, with exception to Theme or skin files (ART), I would be against it.

    Why, though? Assuming it's just moving around information that is already available to every player and not adding elements that don't already exist.

    I also don't have a problem with people creating things like DPS meters using chat log files, but I would consider that a separate aspect of modding.

     

    Because its a “feature” not available to everyone, any modding to add features no matter how trivial should not be allowed.

    It would be available to everyone though? Anybody can mod their UI in the same way. Every game has sites dedicated to sharing user-made UI mods.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:19 AM PDT

    Yes, anyone could potentially modify their game, but thats exactly the problem. Once you open that door to Modding, where do you draw the line, how can you be sure an addon won’t eventually become a required mod for running raids ect..

    Id rather everyone play the same version of the game.

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:24 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Yes, anyone could potentially modify their game, but thats exactly the problem. Once you open that door to Modding, where do you draw the line, how can you be sure an addon won’t eventually become a required mod for running raids ect..

    Id rather everyone play the same version of the game.

    I don't really know that this is a real problem. You can restrict what is able to be modded such that features not intended to be available to the player can't be created.

    If you have chat logs, you're going to have DPS meters, that's just unavoidable. 

    I do agree I don't like how in Everquest, in order to raid, there are several add-ons that guilds consider required, but that's mostly due to limitations of the game itself and not having those sorts of features incorporated into the game. At least for the features that aren't actually exploits like ShowEQ.

    But I think the idea that simply rearranging elements of the UI to suit how I want information that's already available to be displayed doesn't necessarily lead down the slippery slope of a suite of UI mods being required by a guild in order to raid.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 7:58 AM PDT

    I would have to disagree here that it is a slippery slope, For example taking your desire to merge windows of information, now if this is by default the thats fine since everyone is on the same playing Field.

    However, even something as simple as the ability to merge the contents of separate windows into one window would provide an advantage over someone who doesn't have the mod installed.

    UI windows have minimum size restraints, a separate health bar, stamina bar, mana bar, would all take up more space than a window of them combined. This extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 8:02 AM PDT

    I think this advantage is being grossly overstated.

    Especially considering windows in UIs can fade to transparent in nearly every game ever made in the last 15-20 years.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 8:10 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    I think this advantage is being grossly overstated.

    Especially considering windows in UIs can fade to transparent in nearly every game ever made in the last 15-20 years.

     

    Those are separate features, that even if we assume will be included, don’t change anything. Hiding you UI makes you blind to certain information, but provides a clear landscape for maximum observation. Its a trade off, not having your cake and eating too.

    • 267 posts
    July 12, 2019 8:17 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Chanus said:

    I think this advantage is being grossly overstated.

    Especially considering windows in UIs can fade to transparent in nearly every game ever made in the last 15-20 years.

     

    Those are separate features, that even if we assume will be included, don’t change anything. Hiding you UI makes you blind to certain information, but provides a clear landscape for maximum observation. Its a trade off, not having your cake and eating too.

    Not hiding the UI. The way it often works is the background of the UI fades to transparent, so the information is still displayed, but you can see past the window.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 8:21 AM PDT

    Fair enough, but keep in mind we don’t know what features will be included, docking is also often a feature of the UI, but my point is we should all play the same version of the game, No Mods.

    • 94 posts
    July 12, 2019 3:10 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    I would have to disagree here that it is a slippery slope, For example taking your desire to merge windows of information, now if this is by default the thats fine since everyone is on the same playing Field.

    However, even something as simple as the ability to merge the contents of separate windows into one window would provide an advantage over someone who doesn't have the mod installed.

    UI windows have minimum size restraints, a separate health bar, stamina bar, mana bar, would all take up more space than a window of them combined. This extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

    I feel this is yet another example of the sacrifices that a PVE game has to make to even semi support PVP. I agree that limiting to what degree you allow customization of the UI is important. But that degree changes a lot when instead of mostly working as a team you are actively fighting one another. I think in a PVE game rearranging your UI as Chanus had suggested is completely reasonable even if not everyone is able to figure out how to do it. But even as a none PVPer I can see how this could be considered an unfair advantage.

    I personally hope they consider PVE primarily when defining the limitations. This will allow them far more freedom in what limits they decide on.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 3:19 PM PDT

    starblight said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    I would have to disagree here that it is a slippery slope, For example taking your desire to merge windows of information, now if this is by default the thats fine since everyone is on the same playing Field.

    However, even something as simple as the ability to merge the contents of separate windows into one window would provide an advantage over someone who doesn't have the mod installed.

    UI windows have minimum size restraints, a separate health bar, stamina bar, mana bar, would all take up more space than a window of them combined. This extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

    I feel this is yet another example of the sacrifices that a PVE game has to make to even semi support PVP. I agree that limiting to what degree you allow customization of the UI is important. But that degree changes a lot when instead of mostly working as a team you are actively fighting one another. I think in a PVE game rearranging your UI as Chanus had suggested is completely reasonable even if not everyone is able to figure out how to do it. But even as a none PVPer I can see how this could be considered an unfair advantage.

    I personally hope they consider PVE primarily when defining the limitations. This will allow them far more freedom in what limits they decide on.

    This isn't a PVE or PVP issue, that was just an example of how easy something that seems trivial can create an advantage. The safest bet is to not open Pandora's box.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at July 12, 2019 3:20 PM PDT
    • 364 posts
    July 12, 2019 3:47 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:This extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

     

    This is a really flimsy argument.  I mean, you might as well lock the resolution at 1080P if you're going to label more viewing space as a competitive advantage.  

     

    My personal take on where the line should be drawn is that anything that is simply presenting already available information in a more streamlined or useful way is okay.  As long as your customization doesn't take actions or present prevously unavailable information, it's fine.  

    • 94 posts
    July 12, 2019 3:50 PM PDT

    Completely agree that UI customizations are not a PVE or PVP issue alone. But I would like to hear your explanation of why Chanus suggested customization would be an issue as to advantage in PVE. This is serious request I do admit I might just not be seeing it.

    To the argument that it could be a slippery slope. Well that could be true, but to limit basic customization in the fear they might go to far? I have yet to see a MMOs UI I did not want to throw out as complete garbage. I think the rewards outweigh the risks.

    • 240 posts
    July 12, 2019 6:20 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    HemlockReaper said:This extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

     

    This is a really flimsy argument. I mean, you might as well lock the resolution at 1080P if you're going to label more viewing space as a competitive advantage.

     

    My personal take on where the line should be drawn is that anything that is simply presenting already available information in a more streamlined or useful way is okay. As long as your customization doesn't take actions or present prevously unavailable information, it's fine.

    I don't think its that flimsy, meta gamers, and their guilds will take advantage of even the smallest gain, and often make that setup mandatory for the guild.

    Additionally, The resolution options, be it locked at 1080p or varying will be the same for everyone, so that doesn't really apply here. The equivalent would be having the game locked at 1080p, and then downloading a mod that let you run 1440p or higher.

    starblight said:

    Completely agree that UI customizations are not a PVE or PVP issue alone. But I would like to hear your explanation of why Chanus suggested customization would be an issue as to advantage in PVE. This is serious request I do admit I might just not be seeing it.

    To the argument that it could be a slippery slope. Well that could be true, but to limit basic customization in the fear they might go to far? I have yet to see a MMOs UI I did not want to throw out as complete garbage. I think the rewards outweigh the risks.

    I used a PVP example, but truthfully it applies to PVE as well, not so much for casual groups, but top end guilds would likely have some competition between the the various key spots, such as say the healers.

    In a large raid, being able to reduce the screen clutter would allow a healer to spot more allies with out as much screen rotation. Now sure, a similar benefit could be achieved with a better monitor (Higher resolution), but thats a hardware advantage that still working withing the bounds of the default game setup.

     

     

    I honestly don't see why its so difficult to just play the game thats made. I mean I’d love to have a map, but This game will not have one as I understand it. Does that mean its OK for me to add a mod to give me a map, or even mini map? Certainly not, I either play the game as design or move along.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at July 12, 2019 7:27 PM PDT
    • 1211 posts
    July 12, 2019 6:25 PM PDT

    Kalok said:

    zoltar said:

    Yea, but the question is how do you allow UI modding but not allow DPS/threat meters?  It seems like giving players tools to mod the UI would necessitate giving them the tools to create a DPS meter.

    They believe that they have a way, apparently.

    I think, as was mentioned, you are referring to skins as mods.  They are not the same thing.  Sometime VR devs communicate poorly as well.  I think what they said would be allowed was various UI skins as far as this conversation is defining them.


    This post was edited by philo at July 12, 2019 6:31 PM PDT
    • 1538 posts
    July 12, 2019 11:03 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    Skins or mods?  I was pretty sure that they had taken a stance against threat meters and dps meters and the like.  If so, I would imagine any skinning that you could do would be very limited, i.e. no functional differences. Otherwise you'd make those meters easy to create.

    That's just not true at all, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Allowing someone to change a font/window size/location/color/transparency has absolutley nothing to do with exposing other elements of the game. What does requiring my password to have an uppercase character and number have to do with the size of my profile avatar?


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at July 12, 2019 11:05 PM PDT
    • 1538 posts
    July 12, 2019 11:13 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    his extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

     

    Yeah, it's called an advancement of technology that across genres and eras of progress we've embraced as a species because it's better. Let's make everyone play on the exact same PC because it's unfair that someone loads faster or has a quicker input. Should we just lock the aspect ratio at 4:3 because some people still run CRTs and they'd be at some made up disadvantage? I cannot believe this is a real argument. Diablo 3 will be 10 years old by the time Pantheon comes out and it supported 21:9 from the get go. Your argument holds zero water. It's akin to saying they should limit frame rates because some people have better video cards. If people want to make their freaking font size smaller so they can see more of their screen, that's not a "competitive advantage". I have a nice smooth mouse pad and a mouse that has software which can adjust DPI on the fly. Ban me. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at July 12, 2019 11:21 PM PDT
    • 94 posts
    July 12, 2019 11:36 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

     

    I honestly don't see why its so difficult to just play the game thats made. I mean I’d love to have a map, but This game will not have one as I understand it. Does that mean its OK for me to add a mod to give me a map, or even mini map? Certainly not, I either play the game as design or move along.

     

    The ability to customize or mod games is one of the core reasons I fell in love with PC games over console. But most likely even more important is the desire for that perfect games that is so rarely made. But as others have stated if they made my perfect game for me it would likely fail so I settle for the ones that hit closest to the mark and then I customize them to better fit.

    I think this is the reason I am also so excitable about Pantheon. It hits closer to the mark in so many ways and it worries me that the developers will be swayed.

    Back to the OP topic I have tried the mods games like WOW had and while I was kind of awestruck by what people made, I felt they had an overall negative impact on the game. But in many games like EQ and VG the changes I made to the UI did not add anything to the game that was not there originally it just rearranged it to look nicer and to limit the clutter on the screen. Too me this is an acceptable and important aspect and I hope it is added.


    This post was edited by starblight at July 12, 2019 11:36 PM PDT
    • 240 posts
    July 13, 2019 5:20 AM PDT

    blockquote]Keno Monster said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    his extra viewing area would be an advantage that allows the user to observe more of the landscape. This could be a potential lethal advantage on PvP servers.

     

    Yeah, it's called an advancement of technology that across genres and eras of progress we've embraced as a species because it's better. Let's make everyone play on the exact same PC because it's unfair that someone loads faster or has a quicker input. Should we just lock the aspect ratio at 4:3 because some people still run CRTs and they'd be at some made up disadvantage? I cannot believe this is a real argument. Diablo 3 will be 10 years old by the time Pantheon comes out and it supported 21:9 from the get go. Your argument holds zero water. It's akin to saying they should limit frame rates because some people have better video cards. If people want to make their freaking font size smaller so they can see more of their screen, that's not a "competitive advantage". I have a nice smooth mouse pad and a mouse that has software which can adjust DPI on the fly. Ban me.

    -----------

    What you just Quoted was in discussion about Adding Mods, Not Hardware, Had you read further down you would have seen I'm not opposed to someone having better hardware.

    Here's a Quote From VR, Notice the part about “or allow the UI to be dramatically changed.”

     


    Kilsin said:

    We have covered this in multiple threads but basically the official stance is we will allow some customisation for the user to move their UI around, skin it and set it up the way they like but we will not support APIs, Addons or 3rd party programs that link information to the game or allow the UI to be dramatically changed.


    From https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4072/ui-map-customization

     

     


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at July 13, 2019 5:21 AM PDT
    • 148 posts
    July 13, 2019 7:12 AM PDT

    I'll be happy just being able to move UI elements around such as the party frames. Sounds like this will be possible so im pretty happy.