When LOTRO announced they were implementing UI modding, one of the developers made a really excellent point: "No single version of a UI element will ever be ideal for all players everywhere. What one player loves about part of the UI can send the player standing next to them reeling into a frothing rage of frustration." That is 100% spot on. In fact, there's a vocal group of players that essentially don't want the UI to provide any information outside of the combat log. Thankfully VR has shown that they are interested in making the UI useful, but they don't seem likely to support UI mods, and I'm good with that. However, I do think the decision to not allow modding should come with responsibility to make a good UI that is also flexible and customizable.
I've been working on a list of UI needs and wants that I'm going to share and update with additional suggestions from the community. I've also done a quick mockup of what some of these suggestions would look like. I've noticed that people tend to immediately imagine the worst, bloated WoW UI when you start talking about adding UI options. So the mockup should help alleviate those fears.
My general philosophy is to take information that the UI is already presenting to the player, but present it in much eaiser format to process while minimizing clutter and maximizing visibility. I mainly play a healer, but I find it very annoying to be watching the party/raid frames on the top left of the screen, scanning my hotbar on the bottom of the screen for cooldown information, and scanning the top or right side of the screen for self buff information. The intentions of having a clean ui and allowing players to soak in the scenery backfires because when you need information, you're forrced to forcus too heavily on the edges of the screen.
Mockup Album: https://imgur.com/a/TRgYSEj ; [sorry if it didn't work, was trying to make minor update. should be good now]
Google Doc with full list of suggestions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15fiXSE4ZoaU_2Gd4FhmLzW1jzR-5SoVqKGnhFpBGQbk/edit?usp=sharing
Even though this does a pretty good job of striking a balance between information and clutter (IMO), keep in mind that this is a depiction of pretty much all the optional elements. In most cases you won't even see all of this being used. I'll now go into a little bit of detail about the parts shown in the mockup, what they are there for, and how they could be customized.
Buff/Debuff Indicators for Party/Raid Frames- Honestly, this is probably the least optional feature, but I would be very surprised if displaying some buffs/hots/debuffs wasn't already planned. What I would like to see is the ability to whitelist and blacklist individual spells, and to set a priority threshold (with effects categorized as minor/standard/major) for effects from self/enemies/friendlies.
HUD status indicator- pretty self explanatory. Most likely used by tanks. Very optional, can also be disabled while out of combat to improve the view while running around.
Aura buff/CD indicators- basically a set of icons that you can program to appear under certain conditions, either when a buff/proc is active or off cooldown. You can do a lot with this. Show an icon when two separate skills are both off CD. Etc. Etc. I would be open to the system giving players a limited number of aura icons to program just to keep things from getting out of hand.
Bar CD indicators- somewhat similar to above, but displays a progress bar for buff durations or cooldown durations. Also could be limited in number.
Target marking icons- this option would go the furthest in terms of offering information that isn't technically already part of the UI. However, note that I labeled it as fluff in the google doc. It's a nice feature IMO, and is mainly useful in groups where you might not be on voice chat.
Main Tank/Main Target frames- Also a new addition to the UI, but one I think should be pretty standard.
Skins or mods? I was pretty sure that they had taken a stance against threat meters and dps meters and the like. If so, I would imagine any skinning that you could do would be very limited, i.e. no functional differences. Otherwise you'd make those meters easy to create.
zoltar said:Skins or mods? I was pretty sure that they had taken a stance against threat meters and dps meters and the like. If so, I would imagine any skinning that you could do would be very limited, i.e. no functional differences. Otherwise you'd make those meters easy to create.
There is a difference between a UI mod and a DPS meter, etc. The mods I am referring to are not added functionality things like a DPS meter. You or I would probably call them skins, but they specifically said UI mods.
Kalok said:There is a difference between a UI mod and a DPS meter, etc. The mods I am referring to are not added functionality things like a DPS meter. You or I would probably call them skins, but they specifically said UI mods.
This is the right approach in my opinion. Allowing the modding community to create custom UIs (without necessarily being able to add extra functionality in the form of DPS/Threat meters) is very much so needed, or there will be a lot of unhappy folks. People are particular with the UI they interact with, and almost every game that has some semblance of a modding community has UI overhauls. The main benefit of this is less work for the devs in trying to spend time and resources finding and creating the "most favored" UI for the community. Just let the modding community handle that part.
Looking at what they have said, it's implied that they will allow skins but not mods-- although they are claiming a skin is a "mod" becuase it modifies the code. What most people think of as "mods" they would like to call "addons". Whatever. The semantics isn't important. Bottom line is that it's still up in the air whether you'll be able to do some of thing things I'm talking about here with a skin/mod/addon, and even if you could, some of them would work better as part of the default UI.
Have a problem with a dps meter? Then don't use one. Let the other people that like to have that information readily available at least have the option. I don't want to turn this into a 'dps meter' thread by any means, but it turns me into the hulk when I see so much flames about it - considering the bulk of the playerbase (including myself) actually want them.
Fragile said:Have a problem with a dps meter? Then don't use one. Let the other people that like to have that information readily available at least have the option. I don't want to turn this into a 'dps meter' thread by any means, but it turns me into the hulk when I see so much flames about it - considering the bulk of the playerbase (including myself) actually want them.
No one's flaming DPS meters, we're talking about modding/customizing the UI within the framework that VR has outlined, i.e. they're not going to provide DPS meters themselves in any way since they're against it, nor will they provide the necessary API for modders to integrate one. Since a combat log is being made available, I doubt you have much to worry about since parsers will find their way into players' hands.
Thanks for explaining. I would rather have something in-game, rather than an alt-tab GamParse style log parsing/reader program though. Guess we'll see in the future. I am totally onboard with all the things Zoltar has posted above. The only thing missing is the Health of Target's Target, but I am sure that is just assumed.
Fragile said:Have a problem with a dps meter? Then don't use one. Let the other people that like to have that information readily available at least have the option. I don't want to turn this into a 'dps meter' thread by any means, but it turns me into the hulk when I see so much flames about it - considering the bulk of the playerbase (including myself) actually want them.
Wrong answer, here's why. Have a problem with minimaps? Don't use it. Have a problem with group finder? Don't use it. Have a problem with the easy button? Don't use it. By now you probably get my point, your answer is not sufficient because anything that makes the game easier is going to be utilized. In a group based game if you are not using the tools available you hinder the group needlessly. If the game gives players a tool for invincibility and a player chooses not to use it guess what? The vast majority of the players are going to use that tool! And if said player refuses to use the invincible button people won't let that player join.
I've seen much better responses on the subject of DPS meters, you know...discussing whether or not players should have to do their own homework, or if they should refer to 3rd party sites, or if the DPS meter should be baked into the game itself. Discussing how much info the meter should actually give. The idea that Pantheon should be launched without a DPS meter yet have the UI be customized to add said feature is downright foolish. Either include the DPS meter or do not. Do not go the route of WoW with it's DBM, Omen, QuestHelper, Gearscore, etc.
Develop a solid base UI. Include the information you want available. Simple as that.
Ziegfried said:Wrong answer, here's why. Have a problem with minimaps? Don't use it. Have a problem with group finder? Don't use it. Have a problem with the easy button? Don't use it. By now you probably get my point, your answer is not sufficient because anything that makes the game easier is going to be utilized. In a group based game if you are not using the tools available you hinder the group needlessly. If the game gives players a tool for invincibility and a player chooses not to use it guess what? The vast majority of the players are going to use that tool! And if said player refuses to use the invincible button people won't let that player join.
I've seen much better responses on the subject of DPS meters, you know...discussing whether or not players should have to do their own homework, or if they should refer to 3rd party sites, or if the DPS meter should be baked into the game itself. Discussing how much info the meter should actually give. The idea that Pantheon should be launched without a DPS meter yet have the UI be customized to add said feature is downright foolish. Either include the DPS meter or do not. Do not go the route of WoW with it's DBM, Omen, QuestHelper, Gearscore, etc.
Develop a solid base UI. Include the information you want available. Simple as that.
Except they have already said logging will be available. So your damage numbers are available, others damage numbers are available. I am also not saying that they need to include it, but I would like the framework to be there so I don't have to rely on a 3rd party logging program to tell me if I am min/max'ing correctly or if I am making the correct button presses to do the most damage or take the least amount of damage.
They have said that they will allow UI skins - Moving windows, resizing them, new color schemes, elements grouped differently etc.
They have said they will not allow in-game mods. I don't know how they will accomplish this, but there you have it.
They have also said that logging your combat chat text will be in the client. And they have said that if you want to use that log for any purpose out of game to have at. But that you can't put add-ons into the game client that create new functionality. I think (and I'd have to dig it up to confirm it) that Kilsin said you could even run out of game threat meters if you really wanted to, that there's nothing they can really do to stop that short of not including the logging. But you can't put the results into the game client.
I agree completely, OP! UI customization is criticle for the very reason your quote provides. There will NEVER be a UI design that satisfies everyone, and no single dev or even a small group of devs will be able to come up with a UI that provides information in a way that is accessible to everyone. IMO, addons are critical and I do hope they change their mind. But at the very least they need to work on including a number of important features that, in other MMOs, have traditionally been left to addons.
In a game where managing threat is supposed to be so hugely important, I think not including a way to monitor your threat in-game is an oversight. FFXIV handles this unobtrusively by including a small bar in your party/raid frame that fills in/changes color based on where your threat is at. If you're top in threat, it's red and filled in. The person closest to you in threat will have theirs in yellow, with the bar progressing. It gives everyone a warning about someone coming up on you in threat, without messing with the overall flow of the UI too much.
Quick google search example image: http://i.imgur.com/keopnII.png
Out of the OP's suggested UI features (and all of them I agree with), the ones I most want/must have aree:
- mouseover healing functionality
- buff/debuff icon display within the party/raid frames (and a CLEAR distinction between which is which... preferably a way to customize where each appears)
- quite frankly, my ideal party and raid frame set up looks as close to Grid as possible (https://media.forgecdn.net/avatars/55/939/636141366500971019.jpg)
- aura displays for buffs especially
- font size scaling for all UI elements, including chat (you would be amazed at how many MMOs don't have this)
- transparency slider for chat boxes (again you would be amazed at how many MMOs don't have this)
- built in threat meter (see above description)
... With those, in addition to being able to resize and relocate every UI element, I can probably live with whatever else the game provides.
Naunet said:
In a game where managing threat is supposed to be so hugely important, I think not including a way to monitor your threat in-game is an oversight.
I just can't believe people think a bar or number on the screen should be used to replace being a good player. Become familar with your class, its skills and abilities, and those of your group members and you will not need your hand held with a threat meter. Be a good player, it's MORE FUN that way too.
Like others have said you'll be able to parse the data, if thats in game or 3rd part what does it matter.. the result is the same but seems like its going to be 3rd party. Due to +ve bias you can't parse accurately "by eye" most people are 2X -5X+ out. Saying this we all managed aggro management without aggro meters and parsing (a severe death penalty is a great teacher) in Vanilla EQ1, you actively monitored what was going on rather than simply click your skills in sequence and keep an eye on an aggro bar... the slower combat allows you to get a better feel of the fight/aggro etc, with an aggro meter then the slower combat you wont have to pay attention as much... who cares the game tells you via a bar.
I don't think you'll get accurate threat data from parsing data as VR have stated here are class/race modifiers at play so just parsing DPS/Heal/Taunt etc wont be enough., you'll just get a damage balance which wont = Aggro.
Personally I'd just let VR design their own game, I'm sure they know more about UI design and their vision than anyone here and it's going to be what it's going to be irrispective. Have some faith in the Dev IMO.
rocketmagnet said:Like others have said you'll be able to parse the data, if thats in game or 3rd part what does it matter.. the result is the same but seems like its going to be 3rd party. Due to +ve bias you can't parse accurately "by eye" most people are 2X -5X+ out. Saying this we all managed aggro management without aggro meters and parsing (a severe death penalty is a great teacher) in Vanilla EQ1, you actively monitored what was going on rather than simply click your skills in sequence and keep an eye on an aggro bar... the slower combat allows, with an aggro meter then the slower combat would be fundamentally broken imo.
I don't think you'll get accurate threat data from parsing data as VR have stated here are class/race modifiers at play so just parsing DPS/Heal/Taunt etc wont be enough., you'll just get a damage balance which wont = Aggro.
Personally I'd just let VR design their own game, I'm sure they know more about UI design and their vision than anyone here and it's going to be what it's going to be irrispective. Have some faith in the Dev IMO.
Bingo. This game already has a number of de/anti aggro abilities across multiple classes. People will be expected to utilize those abilities to limit their aggro in certain situations. These are elements that reward skill, experience, and effort. That people are up in arms about requiring a heads up display for something they could figure out on their own if they would just TRY both amazes and scares me.
Keno Monster said:I just can't believe people think a bar or number on the screen should be used to replace being a good player. Become familar with your class, its skills and abilities, and those of your group members and you will not need your hand held with a threat meter. Be a good player, it's MORE FUN that way too.
I just can't believe that someone thinks desiring some kind of visual threat indicator means I just don't want to be a good player!
I find such a feature helpful in being proactive about managing threat, so that your cue to pull back isn't a mob punching you in the face.
I agree that having a meter makes managing threat really unsatisfying. It also gives the threat mechanic a very artificial feeling. At the same time, I think it's valid to ask if players should get some kind of feedback via gameplay about threat. In fact, I think a sort of "threat con" would be fantastic. Essentially, hitting a hotkey would give you a message that correlates to a certain range of the agro threshold very much like how conning a mob gives you info about their level and friendliness. For example "Orc Primalist doesn't appear to consider you a threat" or "The Orc Primalist appears to be perturbed by your actions".
I like this system because it fits thematically with Pantheon's con system, requires action and thought for the player, doesn't require any UI space like a meter would, and doesn't give an artifical feeling to threat.
There is a difference between UI and mechanics. If players are asking for stuff like threat meters and when bosses cast certain spells and stuff, then it isn't a UI, but an addon of some sort that is showing you a mechanic. UI is only visual based off of what information is allowed from the standard UI. Custom UIs are only for looks, not more information. If these custom UIs have DPS meters. and boss casting etc. then it becomes a neccessity to have these Custom UIs to not drag your group down.
So I will say it again, Custom UIs are meant for looks, not more information.
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:I just can't believe people think a bar or number on the screen should be used to replace being a good player. Become familar with your class, its skills and abilities, and those of your group members and you will not need your hand held with a threat meter. Be a good player, it's MORE FUN that way too.I just can't believe that someone thinks desiring some kind of visual threat indicator means I just don't want to be a good player!
I find such a feature helpful in being proactive about managing threat, so that your cue to pull back isn't a mob punching you in the face.
And people who are better players will know when to dial it back and not pull aggro in the first place without a meter to tell them how to play the game. That's the whole point. Let that be a deciding factor in what makes a player good. Awareness, experience, timing, familiarity with the situation, skills and abilites.
zoltar said:I agree that having a meter makes managing threat really unsatisfying. It also gives the threat mechanic a very artificial feeling. At the same time, I think it's valid to ask if players should get some kind of feedback via gameplay about threat. In fact, I think a sort of "threat con" would be fantastic. Essentially, hitting a hotkey would give you a message that correlates to a certain range of the agro threshold very much like how conning a mob gives you info about their level and friendliness. For example "Orc Primalist doesn't appear to consider you a threat" or "The Orc Primalist appears to be perturbed by your actions".
I like this system because it fits thematically with Pantheon's con system, requires action and thought for the player, doesn't require any UI space like a meter would, and doesn't give an artifical feeling to threat.
Great post.
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:I just can't believe people think a bar or number on the screen should be used to replace being a good player. Become familar with your class, its skills and abilities, and those of your group members and you will not need your hand held with a threat meter. Be a good player, it's MORE FUN that way too.I just can't believe that someone thinks desiring some kind of visual threat indicator means I just don't want to be a good player!
I find such a feature helpful in being proactive about managing threat, so that your cue to pull back isn't a mob punching you in the face.
Why would you want a game that tells you exactly what to do and what abilities to use and when to use them all the time?
Are you even playing a game at that point or merely a drone following orders...
If that's what you want then current WoW with its UI mods is what you want and it's available right now. Pantheon is not aiming for that style of gameplay.
zoltar said:Yea, but the question is how do you allow UI modding but not allow DPS/threat meters? It seems like giving players tools to mod the UI would necessitate giving them the tools to create a DPS meter.
I couldn't care less if someone has a DPS meter. Big deal if some rogue or wizard gets their jollies off seeing such numbers. All I want is the ability to modify the UI such that I can dictate where and in what fashion all the information that the system sends my character. I need complete freedom in window placement, sizing and transparency. I also need the freedom to change the wording of any text I see. I don't need to see that I hit some mob with my stupid hammer for 4 damage, I only need the number and in a color I choose. Same goes for all other battle text.
