I made a rather lengthy post a while back on my idea for a cartography system that invloved skill and needed tools. various tools able to use at various skill levels some more permanent than others and certain races having benefits that if learned and highly skilled can be placed like icons, that can only be understood by another player if the other player understood the language and culture (similar and including to the orc idea above but more indepth)
From a mechanic perspective it centered around the PITA it is to sign a name with a mouse for most folks. this mouse sensitivity can be turned up depending on the skill in cartopgraphy. low skill, rudimentary scratchings, and wobbly control of mouse ,maybe limited to 3 strokes, etc. so maybe you can draw an X and maybe a line. as yu get better- better mouse control and sensitivity and possibly smallcartography submenue options lile mimited colors or rudimentary geographical icons like animals, hills, tree, cave, like an armor dye menu maybe.
For instance :As you get highly skilled and are a gnome, you get icons that represent energy lines that you can onlly draw on magical parchement with a quill, so you can draw a map, and add icons from a menu showing magical lines and trade that. someone not knowing gnomish language and culture(high faction) would only see the drawing, and not the icons. Likewise a human, so skilled, can only draw on leather with a burl, and a skilled human has icons that show roads, towns and cities that can be placed on their map. Archai, shone and chisel, with element currents icons at high level, you get the idea. So the player has a potential to get many maps, but may only need or use some, or may need or use all, but cannot use all at the same time and like raidan suggests, open one at a time and fill the whle screen.
Your gnome map will burn if you are in lava, your human map might survive but could be damaged, your archai map would probably survive but would be melted, your dwarven crystal sheet would survive but may shatter
Chanus said:I've seen mixed results. But regardless, it's a burden I shouldn't have to put on my group just so people who don't like maps can ensure none of us get to have maps.
I really don't understand the crowd that insists no one gets to have things simply because they don't like them. If you don't want to use a map, don't use a map.
That type of argument doesn't fly. Never has, never will.
I could probably live with a simple map like the one you're advocating, but to ask me not to use a built-in map when I'm lost in a dangerous place is not fair. In the game I will use what I can to be successful, just like everybody else. Anything else would crazy.
Similar arguments always come up when the debate is about traveling: "If you like to travel so much, run all you like, but I need a teleporter at every intersection of the world to enjoy myself." It just doesn't work like that. We must all experience the same level of difficulty for an MMO to be enjoyable.
Jabir said:Chanus said:I've seen mixed results. But regardless, it's a burden I shouldn't have to put on my group just so people who don't like maps can ensure none of us get to have maps.
I really don't understand the crowd that insists no one gets to have things simply because they don't like them. If you don't want to use a map, don't use a map.
That type of argument doesn't fly. Never has, never will.
I could probably live with a simple map like the one you're advocating, but to ask me not to use a built-in map when I'm lost in a dangerous place is not fair. In the game I will use what I can to be successful, just like everybody else. Anything else would crazy.
Similar arguments always come up when the debate is about traveling: "If you like to travel so much, run all you like, but I need a teleporter at every intersection of the world to enjoy myself." It just doesn't work like that. We must all experience the same level of difficulty for an MMO to be enjoyable.
Difficulty != Tedium
I don't agree with not wanting a map or not using a map if it's available, but I also don't agree with forcing everyone to play the game one way just because that's how you like to play it.
Having a map you can choose not to use is an option.
Having no map because you personally like to run around blind is tedious.
This is not the same as fast travel. I'm not skipping content by having a map. I'm more able to engage the actual content if I have a map.
Chanus said:Difficulty != Tedium
I don't agree with not wanting a map or not using a map if it's available, but I also don't agree with forcing everyone to play the game one way just because that's how you like to play it.
Having a map you can choose not to use is an option.
Having no map because you personally like to run around blind is tedious.
This is not the same as fast travel. I'm not skipping content by having a map. I'm more able to engage the actual content if I have a map.
That last sentence does sound like it's difficulty you want to reduce with a map. Just because you find that type of difficulty tedious to deal with, doesn't mean I do.
I'm not trying to force anybody to do anything. I'm describing the game that I would prefer to see, just like you are. But I insist everybody face the same general challenge because a PvE MMO is a competitive environment where achievements yield status.
Difficulty may indeed be different than tedium, but nobody's advocating tedium here. We're discussing how difficult it should be to find your way around. With a map you are in fact "skipping content" by eliminating, or at least reducing, the challenge of familiarizing yourself with the world layout. Unless you don't think of the game world as a whole as "content"?
You can compare the game world to a maze. Finding your way is a challenge that some find entertaining while others find it tedious. But with a top-down view where you can track where you've been it becomes pointless.
I brought up travel because teleporting's just another way of making it easier to get to the places in the world where all the fun is supposed to be. Optional markers above the heads of quest givers is another example. It's all about whether you want the game world to be an important part of the overall challenge or essentially a lobby where you arrange the next dungeon crawl. (Extreme, I know).
But my main point was that suggesting I ignore aids that I prefer not to see in game is kinda silly, really. As I said, I can live with a crude map with no indication of where I am or have been.
I agree that modern maps do far too much but at least more rudimentary maps do not really hand feed us - they just let us see what our characters see in a useful way.
I also agree that cartography is a great skill to have though I think it can be a lot more straightforward than the OP suggests. Cartography in games like these goes back at *least* to Might and Magic 2. Which without looking it up has to be some time within a few years of 1980. By edit - 1988. Curses on my failing memory!
((because a PvE MMO is a competitive environment where achievements yield status.))
Probably most people would disagree with this. I certainly do. A MMO provides a world to explore and enjoy and many ways to make a character better - but if you do something I haven't done or do it faster this in no way takes anything away from my experience or enjoyment. Competition with other players is essentially a PvP concept. Your view would mean that anyone with large amounts of time to play (and reasonable ability) is a guaranteed winner and anyone with more limited time is a guaranteed loser and might as well not even download the game. A guarantee for Pantheon's failure.
Competing for server firsts and things against other players is certainly an aspect of the game some people enjoy, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. If I can't have a simple map that shows my location on it for this reason, so that people who don't want to use a map aren't disadvantaged when racing content, I would find that to be a supremely ridiculous game design decision that would push away far more players than it would attract. At the end of the day, an online multiplayer game needs to attract players if it wants to thrive. Byzantine game design for the hardest core is absolutely not the way to do that.
I don't think anyone here is clamoring for Easy Mode, but certain Quality of Life improvements that have entered online gaming over the last two decades actually are improvements to game design.
Chanus said:If I can't have a simple map that shows my location on it for this reason, so that people who don't want to use a map aren't disadvantaged when racing content, I would find that to be a supremely ridiculous game design decision that would push away far more players than it would attract. At the end of the day, an online multiplayer game needs to attract players if it wants to thrive. Byzantine game design for the hardest core is absolutely not the way to do that.
Showing your location is not a map, it is GPS. That has no place in a game like this. Use your eyes and over time with experience you will learn where things are and it will be so_much_more_satisfying. You know what's supremely ridiculous? Knowing exactly where you are in relation to everything else in the world at all times. The suggestion that not having in game GPS is "the hardest core" is absurd.
Chanus said:I don't think anyone here is clamoring for Easy Mode, but certain Quality of Life improvements that have entered online gaming over the last two decades actually are improvements to game design.
And certain changes to game design are not improvements. This is a virtual world like a MUD or even a SIM, not an arcade game .
A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
Chanus said:I don't think anyone here is clamoring for Easy Mode, but certain Quality of Life improvements that have entered online gaming over the last two decades actually are improvements to game design.
I'd actually quite like to dev-made art-style lore-based in-keeping maps, but I don't see it (or want it) as a Quality of Life thing at all.
For me, maps are an opportunity for positive gameplay: Crafting, treasure hunting, collecting, vending, etc.
Also, they make sense in game. The idea of adventurers going off into the wilderness one after the other day after day and no one making maps is bizarre.
dorotea said:A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
In fact, many people are and have been advocating for exactly that. Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?
Keno Monster said:dorotea said:A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
In fact, many people are and have been advocating for exactly that. Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?
Why not use your own fighting skills if you play a warrior? Your own magic (?) if you're a mage?!
It's an exaggerated example, but the point is, your character is an adventurer by profession. To have them getting lost, or not, based on the *players* orienteering skills is not something some people enjoy and not realistic to some either. Even modern graphics/monitors and surround sound don't deliver a realistic enough experience to impart anything like a natural feeling sense of direction. Some kind of mapping, however basic, would be an analog for the kind of abilities an adventurer/explorer might have. As some have suggested, it could actually be a really valuable and fun part of the game, not a QoL convenience at all. Something you have to spend time developing and practicing like any other adventuring skill.
A mapping system can be much less than a GPS system, but much more than nothing (which will, of course, actually be third party spoiler sites).
disposalist said:Keno Monster said:dorotea said:A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
In fact, many people are and have been advocating for exactly that. Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?
Why not use your own fighting skills if you play a warrior? Your own magic (?) if you're a mage?!
To have them getting lost, or not, based on the *players* orienteering skills is not something some people enjoy and not realistic to some either. Even modern graphics/monitors and surround sound don't deliver a realistic enough experience to impart anything like a natural feeling sense of direction. Some kind of mapping, however basic, would be an analog for the kind of abilities an adventurer/explorer might have.
You've got to be kidding. People have been getting lost and then learning their way through games without maps for 40 years.
Keno Monster said:disposalist said:Keno Monster said:dorotea said:A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
In fact, many people are and have been advocating for exactly that. Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?
Why not use your own fighting skills if you play a warrior? Your own magic (?) if you're a mage?!
To have them getting lost, or not, based on the *players* orienteering skills is not something some people enjoy and not realistic to some either. Even modern graphics/monitors and surround sound don't deliver a realistic enough experience to impart anything like a natural feeling sense of direction. Some kind of mapping, however basic, would be an analog for the kind of abilities an adventurer/explorer might have.
You've got to be kidding. People have been getting lost and then learning their way through games without maps for 40 years.
And that makes it the ideal way how?
There have also been games that make it impossible for you to get lost with a GPS-like minimap since, I dunno, Battlezone.
That doesn't make it ideal either.
I understand what you are saying. I am simply saying there are other valid views and ideas.
Personally, I would like to see a combination of a few of these ideas
You start off with a blank map, but you can an old world style map (lots of art, but not very accurate) to give you an idea of what the zones terain is like. As you explore the zone, your map (weather the basic blank, or bought old world map) get filled in with accurate details of your surroundings.
At no point does there need to be a little "you are here" dot. Use your surrounds and your map to figure out where you are on the map, just like you would with a paper map of today (not google maps).
No need for radar, or turn-by-turn directions, or trails to follow.
disposalist said:Keno Monster said:disposalist said:Keno Monster said:dorotea said:A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
In fact, many people are and have been advocating for exactly that. Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?
Why not use your own fighting skills if you play a warrior? Your own magic (?) if you're a mage?!
To have them getting lost, or not, based on the *players* orienteering skills is not something some people enjoy and not realistic to some either. Even modern graphics/monitors and surround sound don't deliver a realistic enough experience to impart anything like a natural feeling sense of direction. Some kind of mapping, however basic, would be an analog for the kind of abilities an adventurer/explorer might have.
You've got to be kidding. People have been getting lost and then learning their way through games without maps for 40 years.
And that makes it the ideal way how?
There have also been games that make it impossible for you to get lost with a GPS-like minimap since, I dunno, Battlezone.
That doesn't make it ideal either.
I understand what you are saying. I am simply saying there are other valid views and ideas.
Because Brad himself has said multiple times, including recently, that they are trying to make a virtual world, not just a video game, a place where you can actually feel like you live.
My girlfriend and I visit the same friends every weekend almost and she can't drive there without her phone telling her when to turn. I stole her phone from her 2 weeks in a row and guess what, now she knows it by heart. I was watching a game review video recently and the author talked about playing through the tutorial in a game and realizing at the end of it that he had learned nothing because it was just sequence of being told what to do and where to go the entire time. He didn't need to pay any attention. He didn't learn anything and felt no attachment to the experience.
The same reason I don't want GPS in game is the same reason most of us don't want quest hubs and exclamation points leading us around by our noses. When the game autopilots you through it, you cease to care. When you actually have to pay attention and learn, and yes, get lost and spend time finding your way, the end result is a terrific amount of satisfaction and immersion.
I do not mean to be condescending but it makes me genuinely very sad that people don't understand or appreciate this. This is FUNDAMENTAL to what they are trying to recapture.
When you visit a new city in real life, even with GPS, do you automatically know where the bank is? No, you have to learn it. Maybe there's a one way grid that you didn't see on google maps or there's some wonky intersection where you can't turn left. Well you learned it yourself and are now prepared to do it better next time. You've gained confidence and experience. When you zone in to your starting city do you honestly expect to know where everything is automatically? We're going to spend a few hours learning how to get from our guild leader to the zone entrance and then back to our guild leader, and then we'll branch out and find the bank and then trace back to the guild leader and then we'll learn bank to zone and then zone to blacksmith and then blacksmith to mailbox etc, etc, etc, and eventually you will have mastered this area. THAT is satisfying, THAT creates a deep connection between the player and the game. This type of thing in a manner of speaking is also a type of horizontal scaling, you are gaining real experience learing the world that will pay off that will be 100% ruined with GPS.
Keno Monster said:disposalist said:Keno Monster said:disposalist said:Keno Monster said:dorotea said:A GPS? You mean if I am out walking and have a map of the city and I happen to know where I am on that map - courtesy of a high tech device known as *eyes* - that is a GPS?
Now granted - something that shows me where I am if I am dropped into that place and had not had a chance to see it with my own eyes would be similar to a GPS but that isn't what anyone is advocating. Only what we see with our own eyes - full "fog of war" - ignoring any cartography skill for the moment.
In fact, many people are and have been advocating for exactly that. Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?
Why not use your own fighting skills if you play a warrior? Your own magic (?) if you're a mage?!
To have them getting lost, or not, based on the *players* orienteering skills is not something some people enjoy and not realistic to some either. Even modern graphics/monitors and surround sound don't deliver a realistic enough experience to impart anything like a natural feeling sense of direction. Some kind of mapping, however basic, would be an analog for the kind of abilities an adventurer/explorer might have.
You've got to be kidding. People have been getting lost and then learning their way through games without maps for 40 years.
And that makes it the ideal way how?
There have also been games that make it impossible for you to get lost with a GPS-like minimap since, I dunno, Battlezone.
That doesn't make it ideal either.
I understand what you are saying. I am simply saying there are other valid views and ideas.
Because Brad himself has said multiple times, including recently, that they are trying to make a virtual world, not just a video game, a place where you can actually feel like you live.
My girlfriend and I visit the same friends every weekend almost and she can't drive there without her phone telling her when to turn. I stole her phone from her 2 weeks in a row and guess what, now she knows it by heart. I was watching a game review video recently and the author talked about playing through the tutorial in a game and realizing at the end of it that he had learned nothing because it was just sequence of being told what to do and where to go the entire time. He didn't need to pay any attention. He didn't learn anything and felt no attachment to the experience.
The same reason I don't want GPS in game is the same reason most of us don't want quest hubs and exclamation points leading us around by our noses. When the game autopilots you through it, you cease to care. When you actually have to pay attention and learn, and yes, get lost and spend time finding your way, the end result is a terrific amount of satisfaction and immersion.
I do not mean to be condescending but it makes me genuinely very sad that people don't understand or appreciate this. This is FUNDAMENTAL to what they are trying to recapture.
When you visit a new city in real life, even with GPS, do you automatically know where the bank is? No, you have to learn it. Maybe there's a one way grid that you didn't see on google maps or there's some wonky intersection where you can't turn left. Well you learned it yourself and are now prepared to do it better next time. You've gained confidence and experience. When you zone in to your starting city do you honestly expect to know where everything is automatically? We're going to spend a few hours learning how to get from our guild leader to the zone entrance and then back to our guild leader, and then we'll branch out and find the bank and then trace back to the guild leader and then we'll learn bank to zone and then zone to blacksmith and then blacksmith to mailbox etc, etc, etc, and eventually you will have mastered this area. THAT is satisfying, THAT creates a deep connection between the player and the game. This type of thing in a manner of speaking is also a type of horizontal scaling, you are gaining real experience learing the world that will pay off that will be 100% ruined with GPS.
I'm not sure how many different ways I can stress that I don't want a GPS-like quality of life convenience mapping system, but that some form of mapping can be a positive for the game, even giving suggestions and hoping for discussion.
Why do you keep arguing against GPS easy mode when maybe only one person (not me) is arguing for it?
I know very well what Brad said about making a virtual world. Maps exist in the real world. They exist in fantasy novels and movies. They existed in medieval times. What is it about adventurers and explorers using maps that makes it less of a virtual world?
disposalist said:Why do you keep arguing against GPS easy mode when maybe only one person (not me) is arguing for it?
I know very well what Brad said about making a virtual world. Maps exist in the real world. They exist in fantasy novels and movies. They existed in medieval times. What is it about adventurers and explorers using maps that makes it less of a virtual world?
I was asked why I think my opinion on what they should do is "ideal" and I gave multiple examples why. And you guys are sweeping under the rug the many posts by people in almost all of these mapping threads who want exactly GPS. And, btw, removing fog of war is effectively GPS. It tells you where you are on the map as you travel around it. That has no place in a game like this. If you want to argue for a cartography skill(hell, why not just have them recode MSPAINT into the game client so people can draw with their mouse as they go) that's fine. I think it's a huge waste of precious time and resources for a game that is clinging to relevance and already well well behind schedule. While the mapping issue will be solved inside the game or out, there are many fundamental things the game must have internally that cannot be recreated or augmented externally. Mapping is not one of them, so don't waste time. They're a tiny team with the window for success shrinking.
disposalist said:To have them getting lost, or not, based on the *players* orienteering skills is not something some people enjoy and not realistic to some either. Even modern graphics/monitors and surround sound don't deliver a realistic enough experience to impart anything like a natural feeling sense of direction.
I'm really really struggling and confused here. How can you be serious with this statement? People found their way in EQ 20 years ago. They found their way in MUDs 10 years before that. I straight up cannot believe that you think the actual player being required to learn/memorize areas is a bad thing. It blows my mind. What in the world does "surround sound" have to do with learning that if you go north until you see the windmill and then turn right and follow the path to the tower with the giant skeletons outside that you're almost to the zone line? That's why I'm "arguing" with you, because you don't seem to "get it", or you're refusing to acknowledge the points I'm making. This is why I said above that it makes me sad. How in the WORLD is getting lost in a place you've never been before unrealistic? Those were your words. What is so hard to understand about the extremely postive connection players can make with the game when they have to actually use their own faculties to become better players?
People found their way in EQ in most places, yes, and resorted to third party map sites as soon as it got complicated because there was nothing in game. Of course we aren't talking about trivial situations like taking a left at the windmill.
"you think the actual player being required to learn/memorize areas is a bad thing". Didn't say that at all. But you do know that people learn/memorise areas that are anything like complex by... making a map!
I'll be doing that myself at home, by the way, but by putting nothing in game you will get a *lot* of people who are less interested in that kind of thing going to spoiler sites which I think is bad for their enjoyment and for the game.
"How in the WORLD is getting lost in a place you've never been before unrealistic. Those were your words". Those are some of my words rearranged to suit.
The important word there is "player". I'm suggesting that basing our avatars' (in game characters) heroic exploring capabilities on the players' (real world people) ability to not get confused by increasingly complex graphics and world design is not necessarily an ideal to aim for. There is scope for improvement. It's worth discussing.
If you're refusing to entertain that there is any possible positive incarnation of anything map-like then *shrug* fine. That's your opinion. You're welcome to it.
I do see your points. I even agree with a lot of them. I also wish to discuss other points.
disposalist said:People found their way in EQ in most places, yes, and resorted to third party map sites as soon as it got complicated because there was nothing in game. Of course we aren't talking about trivial situations like taking a left at the windmill.
"you think the actual player being required to learn/memorize areas is a bad thing". Didn't say that at all. But you do know that people learn/memorise areas that are anything like complex by... making a map!
I'll be doing that myself at home, by the way, but by putting nothing in game you will get a *lot* of people who are less interested in that kind of thing going to spoiler sites which I think is bad for their enjoyment and for the game.
"How in the WORLD is getting lost in a place you've never been before unrealistic. Those were your words". Those are some of my words rearranged to suit.
The important word there is "player". I'm suggesting that basing our avatars' (in game characters) heroic exploring capabilities on the players' (real world people) ability to not get confused by increasingly complex graphics and world design is not necessarily an ideal to aim for. There is scope for improvement. It's worth discussing.
If you're refusing to entertain that there is any possible positive incarnation of anything map-like then *shrug* fine. That's your opinion. You're welcome to it.
I do see your points. I even agree with a lot of them. I also wish to discuss other points.
I straight up said that having an in game cartography system is fine, it does not violate any of my "values". I just don't see why they need to code from scratch what is effectively a software application that already exists in many forms. This is not the same argument is "well then why should you even be able to chat in a game, people can just use discord". One of those things is fundamental, not to the success, but the actual ability of the game to exist, and one is not. We have to have a user interface that allows us to interact, we have to have ways to communicate, we have to have ways to trade and manage items and inventory, etc. We do not have to have maps.
I'll also say this, in huge arse zones like eastern wastes or whatever, a map would be handy. In a small(er) zone like Steamfont Mountains? Come on, the zone is not hard to learn. A smallish matter of time will allow you to orient yourself no matter where you are. Additionally, what about dungeons? Are we now suggesting that they design some sort of CAD style 3d mapping system? I'm guessing not. So people will have to *learn*, which is freaking great. Maps are fine and dandy when there are 2 dimensions. Do we want the map to now tell us if we're above or below a certain point? What if you're stuck in a dense forest? Perhaps you remember which direction the creek flowing through it was going and therefore are able to remember which way you came. That's a hell of a lot better immersive gameplay, to me. It rewards people who pay attention, it rewards experience, and it provides a rewarding challenge for someone new.
>Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?<
Precisely my view but with one difference. I see the player and the character as distinctly different - too many years of roleplaying maybe.
I don't want anything on the map the character cannot see (leaving out the possibility of cartography for the time being) but I do think the character will have far more knowledge of what is seen than the player can looking at things from behind a screen and think the player should be allowed to see what the character sees in a more useful way.
dorotea said:>Why not use your own eyes to learn the zone?<
Precisely my view but with one difference. I see the player and the character as distinctly different - too many years of roleplaying maybe.
I don't want anything on the map the character cannot see (leaving out the possibility of cartography for the time being) but I do think the character will have far more knowledge of what is seen than the player can looking at things from behind a screen and think the player should be allowed to see what the character sees in a more useful way.
An argument could even be made that 3rd person view shouldn't be a thing.
I get lost...a lot. IRL, and in game, I use maps. Other people get lost too. Thus, There will be maps. Maybe on a third party site. Maybe I’ll make my own. Personally VR could make it a fun skill to practice, just like fishing or crafting. Once again, it’s a lot less immersive (to me) to go to a third party site to get maps rather than make my own or buy one from another cartographer (in game) who made them. Do I want my current location to show up on a map? No. Terminus is based on a world that doesn’t have computers or satellite communication. That’s not how maps worked in those days. I’d like for the game to allow me to role play someone who lives on Terminus. That’s what I want, I am totally pumped for Pantheon.
Questaar said:I get lost...a lot. IRL, and in game, I use maps. Other people get lost too. Thus, There will be maps. Maybe on a third party site. Maybe I’ll make my own. Personally VR could make it a fun skill to practice, just like fishing or crafting. Once again, it’s a lot less immersive (to me) to go to a third party site to get maps rather than make my own or buy one from another cartographer (in game) who made them. Do I want my current location to show up on a map? No. Terminus is based on a world that doesn’t have computers or satellite communication. That’s not how maps worked in those days. I’d like for the game to allow me to role play someone who lives on Terminus. That’s what I want, I am totally pumped for Pantheon.
It does have magic.