Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

World Maps

    • 52 posts
    August 6, 2015 11:28 AM PDT

    I agree with not having maps. When there is a mini map with quest markers it's hard not to just stare at it and blindly run to the next quest.

    Some thought's and ideas.

    A world map but very un detailed. I don't want to look at the world map and be like oh there's a cave lets go check it out. I think exploring should be rewarded. Of course it won't take long for everything to be explored and added to a wiki but it will be fun for a while and fun for new players who don't go looking for all the spoilers.

     

    On the world map do not give a specific icon of location. Maybe highlight a large chunk and make it so you can raise a skill to better know your place on a map. 

     

    A compass is a must have.

    Quests: I think the starting locations of most quests should be well mapped or have some kind of ingame assist to find them. As much as I love the old school style where you have to hail and talk to NPC's all this does is make you miss out on quests. Once received a log with good directions would be ample.

     

     

    • 62 posts
    August 23, 2015 6:51 AM PDT

    To whoever manages to read through my entire wall of text, I thank you. I know this may be redundant, but I’ve been dying to add in my two cents for a while now regarding maps… and since I am a supporter now, I can finally post stuff (yay!) so here I go!

     

    I think I have found a way to make everyone happy: the people who want maps, the people who don’t want maps and the people who want a challenge.

     

    No automatic map. ß Yes, yes, that much I think we all already agree on here.

     

    Now here is my suggestion: if you want a map, buy a scroll. If you don’t want a map, don’t buy a scroll. :) Let me elaborate.

     

    Scrolls may be bought from any general merchant – or perhaps a “cartographer merchant” – if players want to have their own in-game map. These scrolls will fill themselves out as you travel, but only when you look at it (sort of like how the maps work in Minecraft). Doing this offers the idea that maps may be treated as a skill, just like sense heading and meditation: the more you sit there and look at (or “study”) your map, the more your cartographer skill goes up, the more detailed it will become and the faster you can create other maps (I will expand on “other maps” in a moment).

     

    However, there should be a detail limit to the maps:

     

    Like someone else said, do not show us villages, farms, towers, castles, caves or dungeons on these maps, nor the names of places. Leave it completely blank, save for terrain, rivers and mountains, etc. and let us – the players – mark up the map(s) ourselves. Give us a set of icons to use to “pin” or “sticker” to our maps, followed by the option to add “handwritten” text below it (i.e. *farm icon* - “Undead farm, great EXP camp!”) that will only read if you hover over the icon with your mouse. This could be fun in so many ways… not only can you mark where big cities, castles and dungeons are, but you could even mark the first place you met your friends, spotted a rare mob, got trained, etc. it can be a memory maker on top of a useful tool and skill.

     

    Scrolls should also only be so big; perhaps just big enough to cover one zone/dungeon at a time.

     

    However, once completed, perhaps multiple maps may be “attached” or “sewn” to one another via a cartographer merchant for a sum of money. Or, perhaps as you level and if there is some form of AA’s in-game, this could be a skill that you can unlock yourself, allowing you to offer your “cartographer services” to other players for a cheaper fee than the actual cartographer merchants (player social-ness FTW!)

     

    There should also be map scroll consequences:

    1. Upon dying, perhaps your map may become torn and need a repair.

    2. If it rains, or you go swimming, your map may become a blur, and have a “cool down” time before it is dry and readable again.

    3. Being drunk in-game should jumble your map around.

    4. Dying via fire should singe your map a bit and need a repair.

     

    All that being said, I personally do not think maps should ever be lost or broken forever (unless of course you “destroy” it or sell it to a merchant) but rather stay damaged and unreadable until you get it repaired, or until it dries after swimming/raining.

     

    Additionally, I am unsure about how I feel regarding being able to sell your maps to other players… so now I’ll take this time to ask you guys: what do you think about these ideas? Is there anything you can expand on or suggest to make it even better? I’m all ears (or eyes, rather).

     

    Thank you!


    This post was edited by Perplexing89 at August 23, 2015 4:13 PM PDT
    • 107 posts
    August 23, 2015 9:39 AM PDT
    Radash said:

    We have not gone over the specifics of the map just yet. I perfer a combination of a world map being set up like a handrawn map with some geography but nothing specific. As far as a more detailed map I have gotten used to the now traditional method of having an easy detailed map, but I have always been fond of not having one available and maybe a way to hand make it in a map tool or something. Similiar to how EQ's map tools were, where you could add lines and dots and things to mark obstacles or bojects. Again we have not decided which route to take just yet.

    Same, I liked the "hand drawn" that seemed like an artifact and gave you a very general idea of how the world was layed out, but detailed maps should be player generated. Hope Pantheon goes that way. 

    • 3016 posts
    August 23, 2015 9:43 AM PDT

    I believe there was some discussion around a cartography skill,  where a crafter makes maps to sell...player economy.   Don't know what is happening with that idea, if it was considered...and so on.  Perhaps Kilsin can tell us whether its too early to discuss that yet.  :)


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at August 24, 2015 12:06 PM PDT
    • 595 posts
    August 23, 2015 10:04 AM PDT
    Perplexing89 said:

    To whoever manages to read through my entire wall of text, I thank you. I know this may be redundant, but I’ve been dying to add in my two cents for a while now regarding maps… and since I am a supporter now, I can finally post stuff (yay!) so here I go!

    I think I have found a way to make everyone happy: the people who want maps, the people who don’t want maps and the people who want a challenge.

    No automatic map. ß Yes, yes, that much I think we all already agree on here.

    Now here is my suggestion: if you want a map, buy a scroll. If you don’t want a map, don’t buy a scroll. :) Let me elaborate.

    Scrolls may be bought from any general merchant – or perhaps a “cartographer merchant” – if players want to have their own in-game map. These scrolls will fill themselves out as you travel, but only when you look at it (sort of like how the maps work in Minecraft). Doing this offers the idea that maps may be treated as a skill, just like sense heading and meditation: the more you sit there and look at (or “study”) your map, the more your cartographer skill goes up, the more detailed it will become and the faster you can create other maps (I will expand on “other maps” in a moment).

    However, there should be a detail limit to the maps:

    Like someone else said, do not show us villages, farms, towers, castles, caves or dungeons on these maps, nor the names of places. Leave it completely blank, save for terrain, rivers and mountains, etc. and let us – the players – mark up the map(s) ourselves. Give us a set of icons to use to “pin” or “sticker” to our maps, followed by the option to add “handwritten” text below it (i.e. *farm icon* - “Undead farm, great EXP camp!”) that will only read if you hover over the icon with your mouse. This could be fun in so many ways… not only can you mark where big cities, castles and dungeons are, but you could even mark the first place you met your friends, spotted a rare mob, got trained, etc. it can be a memory maker on top of a useful tool and skill.

    Scrolls should also only be so big; perhaps just big enough to cover one zone/dungeon at a time.

    However, once completed, perhaps multiple maps may be “attached” or “sewn” to one another via a cartographer merchant for a sum of money. Or, perhaps as you level and if there is some form of AA’s in-game, this could be a skill that you can unlock yourself, allowing you to offer your “cartographer services” to other players for a cheaper fee than the actual cartographer merchants (player social-ness FTW!)

    There should also be map scroll consequences:

    1. Upon dying, perhaps your map may become torn and need a repair.

    2. If it rains, or you go swimming, your map may become a blur, and have a “cool down” time before it is dry and readable again.

    3. Being drunk in-game should jumble your map around.

    4. Dying via fire should singe your map a bit and need a repair.

    All that being said, I personally do not think maps should ever be lost or broken forever (unless of course you “destroy” it or sell it to a merchant) but rather stay damaged and unreadable until you get it repaired, or until it dries after swimming/raining.

    Additionally, I am unsure about how I feel regarding being able to sell your maps to other players… so now I’ll take this time to ask you guys: what do you think about these ideas? Is there anything you can expand on or suggest to make it even better? I’m all ears (or eyes, rather).

    Thank you!

     

    Great post.  There are some really great ideas here and I love your enthusiasm!

     

    There's been quite a bit of discussion in regard to this and there are many on both sides of this argument.  I personally love the idea of a cartographer skill and would love to see it implemented with great success, just not in Pantheon :/  I really just don't want looking at maps to know where I am to be part of the experience at all.  

     

    I think you would be surprised at how much time you actually spend looking at either the mini-map or a full sized map, even if its just toggling it for a second.  I did a little experiment which entailed disabling my map in Guild Wars 2 - I was so indoctrinated to opening my map that I couldn't keep myself from pressing "m" even though I knew full well that my map wouldn't open.  It took dozens of hours (and days of gameplay) to retrain years of muscle memory and programming that taught me "MMOs have maps".

     

    I don't want to be programmed anymore.  Maps become a crutch whether you think you'll use them or not.

     

    • 18 posts
    August 23, 2015 10:56 AM PDT

    Nikademis said:

     

    I think you would be surprised at how much time you actually spend looking at either the mini-map or a full sized map, even if its just toggling it for a second.

     

    I don't want to be programmed anymore.  Maps become a crutch whether you think you'll use them or not.

     

    I couldnt have said it better. They are useful, but so much so that they take away from the game itself. I dare say you wind up spending more time looking at the maps then the actual landscapes that people worked so hard to create. I would love for directions to go by land marks. It makes you really take notice of the world around you, since its the only way you can know where you are and just adds so much more to the immersion level.

     

     

    • 1281 posts
    August 24, 2015 11:20 AM PDT

    If you're navigating the world map rather than navigating what's on screen, the map is probably a little too detailed.

     

    I am in complete agreement that the world map should only have minor details. Similar to old cartographers maps which were always available to explorers. If more detailed maps are to be available they should require the player to visit the area and purchase from a local merchant. They should not just be something where you start the game with complete details of the world.

     

    Regarding mini-map/radar: I definitely do not want a radar type system. But for classes like Rangers that get tracking, I think a mini-map/radar would be a sophisticated way to handle that.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at August 24, 2015 11:21 AM PDT
    • 30 posts
    October 5, 2016 8:11 PM PDT

    I am a fan of the cartography skill.. the higher your skill, the better the map.  I'm even a fan of buying a compass/buying a map in order to make this skill increase.  I also think the idea of having to repair the map is unique and should be evaluated.  Maybe if your own cartography skill is high enough you can repair it yourself?  I think the ideas posted above do solve the "I need a map/I don't want no steenking map!" issues :)

     

     

    • 249 posts
    October 5, 2016 8:47 PM PDT
    Why not make the maps entirely hand drawn? Regardless, i dont want the map to show my location at all.
    • 86 posts
    October 5, 2016 11:44 PM PDT

    I like the idea of limited maps but I do need a little something to take the place of my mind's dead reckoning.  Sort of like how first-person view in games shows a limited amount of head bobbing, your mind naturally anticipates your body's movements and compensates accordingly, allowing you to focus on a reasonably stable image, games need to have realistic expectations of interaction.

    I'm a huge fan of the 'fog of war' thing like old warcraft, not WoW, the old one.

    • 294 posts
    October 6, 2016 5:17 PM PDT

    Crude but effective and much more creative. Here is my idea of a world map.

    Get an old brown-paper grocery bag. Wrinkle it all up to make it old and worn looking. Perhaps burn the edges carefully as not to ruin it, but to give it an even better, rougher, look.

    Get some colored pencils.

    Draw the map. That's right. Fill it in as you go along in your journey. Hang it on the wall next to your computer. Its perfect, unique, and 100% yours.

    • 232 posts
    October 7, 2016 6:37 AM PDT

    In-game world maps, like the paper maps packaged with EQ, would be a great visual reference to where you're at in the world.  I absolutely approve.

    Zone maps on the other hand, I dont feel should be automatically provided as we've seen in other MMO's.  I think making your own map based on what you've seen is a fair idea.  I like the way Rust handles this.  You craft and in-game map and "equip" it.  As you travel around, your map reveals based on what you've seen (specific radius from your character).

    My favorite idea is no zone map or no mini-map at all.  Call me old fashioned, but I feel this provides the ultimate in immersion, and your own internal "cartography" skill (ie, remembering the zone) will be your map.  Just like IRL, when you travel through a certain area a few times, you recognize and become familiar with your surroudings and know the way based on your experience of being there before, not based on an artificial cartography skill that you've diligently leveled up.  From a game systems standpoint, I understand this is pretty unexciting, but feel this would utimately offer the most immersive and memorable experience.


    This post was edited by Dekaden at October 7, 2016 6:37 AM PDT
    • 163 posts
    October 7, 2016 10:30 AM PDT

    I had some thoughts about this too. Brad did say he don't want to have maps as they can ruin immersion. He likes the thought of folks making their own or sharing. He said he would think about it.

    We had a very good discussion on the Voices of Terminus Show about a lore keeper skill. This brings in an Idea I thought about for a while now. Players could chooses to work on a cartographer skill along with the lore keeper skill......these skills working together could unlock fragment map pieces of important interest in the game. Players don't get a full map of a zone but get hints and subtle pieces information of an area or important locations for clues.

    I think combining a cartographer skill and lore master skill could work together to really bring immersion together.

    • 1019 posts
    October 8, 2016 7:31 PM PDT

    I'm a map I'm a map I'm a map I'm a map I'm a map!!

    • 781 posts
    • 3016 posts
    October 8, 2016 8:56 PM PDT

    Kelem said:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1766/ordanance-survey-style-maps

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds

     

    Think these are the ones CanadinaXegony :)  *cheers

     

    yup thanks Kelem :)  that post that you are referring to was in 2015,  a lot of discussion about maps has happened since I made that post  ;)

     

    Cana

    • 3016 posts
    October 8, 2016 8:58 PM PDT

    Dalinsia said:

    I had some thoughts about this too. Brad did say he don't want to have maps as they can ruin immersion. He likes the thought of folks making their own or sharing. He said he would think about it.

    We had a very good discussion on the Voices of Terminus Show about a lore keeper skill. This brings in an Idea I thought about for a while now. Players could chooses to work on a cartographer skill along with the lore keeper skill......these skills working together could unlock fragment map pieces of important interest in the game. Players don't get a full map of a zone but get hints and subtle pieces information of an area or important locations for clues.

    I think combining a cartographer skill and lore master skill could work together to really bring immersion together.

     

    I really like the idea of cartography and lore master skills Dalinsia :)

     

    Cana

    • 3016 posts
    October 8, 2016 8:59 PM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Kelem said:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1766/ordanance-survey-style-maps

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds

     

    Think these are the ones CanadinaXegony :)  *cheers

     

    yup thanks Kelem :)  that post that you are referring to was in August 2015,  a lot of discussion about maps has happened since I made that post  ;)

     

    Cana

    • 173 posts
    October 9, 2016 5:48 AM PDT

    Some great ideas in here.  Like many, I would rather not have a map so detailed I could just follow my map to wherever I wanted to go/see/do.  I really like the idea of a cartographer merchant and the ability to make our own maps.  Being able to do it in game would be preferable to hand drawing maps on a note pad next to my keyboard.  It would also add another level of depth and immersion to the game for me.

     

    Start out with a map that perhaps shows that there are mountains, rivers and such then allow the individual player to add to their own map.  That's my ideal solution (at last to me).

    • 36 posts
    October 9, 2016 9:06 AM PDT

    Zaedria said:

    I am a fan of the cartography skill.. the higher your skill, the better the map.  I'm even a fan of buying a compass/buying a map in order to make this skill increase.  I also think the idea of having to repair the map is unique and should be evaluated.  Maybe if your own cartography skill is high enough you can repair it yourself?  I think the ideas posted above do solve the "I need a map/I don't want no steenking map!" issues :)

     

     

     

    Make cartography a tradeskill. Just give an ouline of walls in the zone and a legend, then the cartogragher can fill in the rest of the details. They can sell their maps on the market.

    • 49 posts
    October 9, 2016 1:59 PM PDT

    Ashvaild said: Why not make the maps entirely hand drawn? Regardless, i dont want the map to show my location at all.

    I think this is essential to not make the maps ruin the game experience. If it shows your position, it is simply too easy to navigate. Let maps be like in the real analog world, where you would have to look out in the terrain to recognice landmarks from the map etc.

    I like the idea of cartographers being able to create handdrawn maps. Maybe even anyone should be able to sketch anything to parse along to friends etc. 

    Perhaps I would like to help my friend on his upcomming journey to a fantastic dungeon, scetching a custom map for him how to parse through 3 connected zones, using the north wall, avoiding dangers in the middle and what not.

    Purpose drawn maps will loose value naturally and require replacement for new purposes. It helps with bringing together the community and the immersion of the game.

    • 768 posts
    June 8, 2019 10:21 AM PDT

    Bring this old topic from six feet under...

     

    I recently came across someone showing and explaining a medieval map. 

    What was interesting is, that this actually seemed to have a lot of Pantheon potential/feel.

    The main catch here is that the map might not be geograpically correct, but for that specific region of the world (in Pantheon's case that would be 'Race'). 

    The map highlights some but not all major constructions and the position (geographical features; rivers, hills,...) of that region in comparison to the rest of the world. BUT in that very map...following the lore and myth's of that country...several beasts and legendary objects are also within that same map. If that was not all, Religion is also integrated into that map. 

    What this would mean for the various maps of Terminus and the players playing a specific race? Each race might have access to a map, where their race/region is main focus on that map. Distances on the map are not accurate, but that value of certain locations shows their importance (be that by use of colour, size, depiction or text). 

    Looking futher, you'll have different races with different maps...and different things they want to seek out or see as more important in the world of Terminus. One can not combine all maps into one...due to the inaccuracy of the distances and the abundance of racial differences in lore and other legendary objects. 

    I believe, that this take on maps, would make it very unique for each race to play and challenging for those that want to venture out into a world of other races. They will have to rely on actual communication and guidelines of players or npc's of other races that might give them directions by some means.

    Have a look at the link below to see of what old "world map" I'm talking about.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4uHbTtWbe8

     

    I'ld greatly appreciate people's feedback on this idea.

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at June 8, 2019 10:25 AM PDT
    • 372 posts
    June 8, 2019 11:07 AM PDT

    Barin999 said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4uHbTtWbe8

     

    TLDR:     an imprecise map that is equal part creative illustration?     I like it!

     

     

    edit: It's bothering me that you didn't make this it's own thread.   I've tried bringing back threads like this and people eventually start replying to the OP.   Oh well.  Maybe it'll get seen.


    This post was edited by Tigersin at June 8, 2019 11:09 AM PDT
    • 388 posts
    June 8, 2019 9:37 PM PDT

    Barin999 said:[

    I'ld greatly appreciate people's feedback on this idea.

     

    I found the video very cool. I watched ~most~ of it. While I appreciate the video, I just don't think having this type of map would be useful. I already plan to add a 2nd monitor for a Mac Mini just to be able to have maps and Info available. If Needed. I say that because honestly, I hope to be able to find my way around naturally after exploring and seeing landmarks etc. 

    If Pantheon ever updates it's world map on this site, just something like that is enough for me. just general loc. nothing more. if the Map we have now is accurate, i know that Southwest of Avendyr's pass is the Silent Plains. And if I cross back to the east side of the river i will also find Steppes of Ru'Lun etc. 

    I get that everyone wants a map. I think EQ didn't have maps at launch either. (i can't remember, it's been 20 years)  They had a World view much like we have here under the World tab. 

    I am good with however things come out. maps, no maps. most of these threads get closed very quickly by Kilsin. Everyone wants to fight about it, and basically Brad said. "we are NOT going to have in game maps." Period. no if's, and's, or but's....  myself, i couldn't care less either way. I am just going by what Brad has said Multiple times. "no maps. want map, tab out and look, or run them on a 2nd computer, whatever works," but he's not giving us maps in the game. 

    edit: thanks for that video btw, it really was interesting. 

    Edit 2: not sure how much this matters, but I do want In Game Maps. if there is a Vote for or against.    I REALLY don't like going to 3rd party crap sites like alakhazams, they are virus/malware infested trash. Windows 10 won't even let me download EQ Brewall Maps without admin over-ride while warning me these files are unsafe. I don't want to have to download garbage from shady sites. 

     


    This post was edited by Flapp at June 10, 2019 9:35 PM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    June 8, 2019 11:33 PM PDT

    There is a huge portion of the population who don't want maps. There's little point on them wasting time on an in game map if the only answer for it to exist is that "someone else will do it online". Yeah, so let that be.