Forums » The Monk

What makes a monk a true off-tank?

    • 51 posts
    December 7, 2018 6:15 AM PST
    If you look on the pantheon page under classes, the 3 tank classes (warrior, pally, direlord) are all listed specifically as "TANK."

    However, the monk is the ONLY class that says "OFF-TANK."

    My question is, what are they doing or giving the monk to make it a true off tank.

    You would think that another warrior or pally/dire would make a better off tank since they seem to be the True tank classes like pantheon is pushing.

    They seem to be specific that the monk is NOT a tank. So why go with a monk to off-tank instead of having another tank fulfil that role?



    I played a monk in eq2. They were labelled tanks, albiet probably the weakest (with raiding in mind). However, they could tank and were built around tanking.

    What I loved most about the monk was that they were weak tanks, but if you were geared well and played the class well, you could be a badass tank. It would really blow some minds of people that swore monks couldn't tank...but I was a raid Main tank a few times. I loved it. I hope it stays the same here.
    • 1631 posts
    December 7, 2018 11:29 AM PST

    I'm sure if you wanted a tank class to off-tank for your group they would be great at it (likely as good as your group's tank).  But the monk being able to off-tank would probably imply that if the situation arose in a group that they couldn't handle adds some other way, the monk could hold his own for long enough, until the tank was available to take over.  Their primary role is DPS.  They should generally outshine a true tank in DPS, and that's generally why groups would want them (and their utility).  Being able to tank in a pinch is just a perk they have over other melee DPS classes.

    It will probably be implemented with abilities with short duration and/or longer cooldowns, and possibly some abilites that tanks get but not to the level they get them (like parry or block), as well as better hp than other DPS classes, and possibly better AC.

    • 221 posts
    December 7, 2018 10:53 PM PST

    If you look at the class page, you can read the abilities (as of now anyway) that give you an idea of how they work as Offtanks. Basically, they are short-term tanks that rely on cooldowns and certain abilities to mitigate damage and heal themselves, but in doing so they will lose DPS (due to mechanics and resourses to use them). So burst defensives with some burst healing over a short duration (same for threat generation).

    Hope this helps.

    • 45 posts
    January 2, 2019 2:01 PM PST

    Without doing any research, I believe the role of a main-tank is to hold agro and sustain damage from 3 or more enemies.  An off-tank would only be able to this with 1 or 2 enemies.  

    The Monk's "tank" role could include taunting any enemy that has peeled off onto the healer/dps and bring it back to the main-tank to re-aquire, or peel an enemy off the main-tank when the healer cannot heal through the tanks failing mitigation situation.  

    • 51 posts
    January 2, 2019 3:18 PM PST
    You are just describing the ROLE of an off-tank.

    You're not describing what makes the monk a viable off tank.

    In a jist, they are making it seem like the monk is just going to be a subpar tank. Perhaps good enough for a small group dungeon run when they just can't get a true tank. But certainly not good enough for raids.


    In a raid of 24, or even 12, I am certainly going to have at least one other tank other thank a monk. So using your example, if a monk is only good enough to handle 1 or 2 mobs....yet the other 3 "true tanks" classes can handle 3 or 4 mobs.....why on Earth would I ever want a monk as an off-tank? Why not just have a second warrior or pally, or DL do it instead?

    That's my point. They are just making it seem very defined that the monk is absolutely a second class tank.
    • 16 posts
    January 4, 2019 2:13 PM PST

    I view the description of the monk (and abilities) to state it's not really what an "off tank" is currently.  The primary thing to the monk will be dps, but they will have some defensive capabilities that will allow them to take a bit of a beating as needed... partially due to the damage they're putting out.

     

    So the "off tank" listing to me is saying the crap hit the fan and need someone to keep the healer alive for a few. :D

     

    For a raid that will require what we think of as an off tank will be another of the tank classes.  The monk will be there as a high damage, but able to help bail out in an emergency.

    • 100 posts
    January 4, 2019 10:55 PM PST
    • 51 posts
    January 4, 2019 11:08 PM PST
    Zazazuu

    Congratulations! You posted an hour's worth of a stream we've all watched!
    • 100 posts
    January 4, 2019 11:42 PM PST

    Sorry, check it out at 51:20 min

    • 51 posts
    January 5, 2019 11:03 AM PST

    So, judging from what you pointed out from the youtube stream (good catch btw) that the monk isn't really a tank at all. If anything, they are a brief...few seconds, last ditch effort of a tank to possibly rez a real tank situation. 

    Monk is solely a dps/puller. Unfortunate because I dont see monks being that necessary now. Im sure the monk's dps will be probably the lowest of all the dps classes. Yea, they can pull, but I don't see that being that big of a deal except for raids. And even in a raid situation, would only need 1 monk. 

    Kind of sad to me. I LOVE playing underrated/underplayed classes. Monk is usually that for me. I also like being good at classes that aren't "The best" at their role. In EQ2 monks were the bottom choice for tanking in raids. But I was so well geared/skill I main tanked quite a bit in EQ2. I could also throw up surprising dps numbers in raids too when not tanking. 

    It seems to me that this will not be the case here. Seems monks role will really just be to pull in raids, dps in groups/raids, and then maybe tank some easier group content or off tank if the MT goes down in a group...no off tanking in raids. 

    I'm just worried how their dps will stack compared to other dps classes. If its not close, I can see raids only have 1 monk max ONLY to pull and then stack the raid with better dps. 

    • 221 posts
    January 5, 2019 7:11 PM PST

    I don't think Monk dps will be low. What he says in that clip, by "burst tanking", he is refering to Defensive cooldowns and self-healing abilities.  So pop those things and you can offtank for a little while, get mobs CC'd or a tank battle rez'd etc. That to me, is a fine role for the monk. I am sure their melee dps will rival that of a rogue, as it always has in most other games. One of the largest benefits of the monk has always been the survivability.

    • 683 posts
    January 10, 2019 8:22 AM PST

    To piggyback onto Fragile's last comment, the monk's DPS doesn't rely so heavily on positioning like the rogue and ranger (having to mix ranged and melee to maximize DPS).  So it may be safe to say that in some situations all of the melee DPS classes will outshine others.  To answer the Original Post, I think that the Monk is labeled as an Off-Tank because they have threat generating abilities (not just pulling threat from DPS), along with defensive and self healing abilties.  Hard threat generating abilities combined with feign death can also be used to "eat" a heavy attack if the main tank is low on HP, then FD the threat back to the tank immediately after your cooldowns are done.  I'm sure if well geared/over-leveled for an area that the monnk could probably be a great tank when taking the threat generated from their DPS into account as well.

    • 20 posts
    January 12, 2019 1:31 AM PST

    The monk being an off tank would most likely be due to their avoidance. A true tank is built to withstand the blows that are directed toward them but a monk as a offtank is meant to dodge the hits. You can kinda ignore an offtank in this fashion as they shouldnt be taking as much sustained damage and coupled with what Darch said they have threat generating abilities to keep the mob off the healer and they can heal themselves to some degree.

    In the end how good a monk is at offtanking will be based on their avoidance capabilites as well as their defensive, healing and threat cooldowns but also largely on the skill level of the person playing the monk. A well played monk will most likely make you pause and itching to create an alt and try to get to that level of skill just as it should be with any well played class.

    • 1039 posts
    January 27, 2019 11:43 PM PST

    It was kind of nice to see the monk with tanking abilities again as it was in EQ. I quit EQ when GoD came out due to the monk mitigation nerf finally taking its toll (they put it in right before SoL came out if I remember right). It really killed the class imo, making it pretty much limited for anything but pulling and DPS. Even that, they killed off monk HtH/dual wield with the push for 2handed and the negatives of damage shields on mobs destroying the monks health. Add in also that by PoP Bards were a far superior pulling class (they gave them a form of FD) and in all but very specific circumstances monk pulls were less effective. Monks got the shaft pretty hard for a while in EQ mostly due to the temper tantrums of certain players who exagerated things. Also, heck... the irony of a bard (who could swarm kite entire zones, then being given a FD) going on how monks deserved a nerf was less than amusing. I think this is where I got very jaded about the whole "role" thing and class envy arguments. 

    • 221 posts
    January 28, 2019 12:32 AM PST

    Monk was top tier dps during all that time though, then rivaling rogues post-2.0's - The tank nerf sucked but if raid geared, you could still tank non-bosses no problem. As far as damage shields, thats why your cleric had the Mark of Karn line plus the OoW AA's (you quit before this) that made your offhand not take damage from damage shields (or Ripostes). 2hd'ers were never better, ever (assuming you didn't have crap 1hd'ers). In my raids I always just told bards to sit back down lol, but none of them were really that skilled at pulling anyway.

    • 1039 posts
    January 28, 2019 6:15 AM PST

    Fragile said:

    Monk was top tier dps during all that time though, then rivaling rogues post-2.0's - The tank nerf sucked but if raid geared, you could still tank non-bosses no problem. As far as damage shields, thats why your cleric had the Mark of Karn line plus the OoW AA's (you quit before this) that made your offhand not take damage from damage shields (or Ripostes). 2hd'ers were never better, ever (assuming you didn't have crap 1hd'ers). In my raids I always just told bards to sit back down lol, but none of them were really that skilled at pulling anyway.

     

    Sure, but then I didn't play the class for DPS (honestly I never considered EQ classes in terms of that min/max view  of class vs class when I started), rather its general description on release of being a class that could be defensive, do damage, and having other utilties (mend/bind wound specialty, sneak, throwing, etc...). 

    As for the nerf, yeah... if you were above the magic 2200 AC, you could still do ok after the nerf in group tanking, but when that hit, my gear was around 1800 AC. Only those who were doing VT or had key very difficult items to get were pushing that number. So, the nerf killed all but top raiders, which to be honest was another issue. While I did raid, I was never cutting edge (always raiding an expansion behind usually), So all of us monks who were not top of the food chain all of a sudden found our ability to tank in groups stripped from us. 

    I remember Monkly Business doing extensive parses (thousands of hours of play) that showed a druid in leather armor was mitigating 10% better than a monk after the nerf (SoE denied it), but that wasn't just the issue, there was something odd in the change that caused crits to be more common as well, above other classes, even cloth wearers. It didn't kill my pulling as I was always a "touchless" puller who didn't rely on AC to save me even before the change, but my ability to MT in groups or even OT became burdensome to the group as healers couldn't keep up with the damage (I became a mana sponge). I remember the last day I played, I was doing Droga with a ranger and druid. Eventually we just had the ranger tank because they were easier to heal than I, and keep in mind this was a druid who had healed me for 5 years of group all the way up from our teen levels in the game. 

    Like you said though, top raid geared could push the caps to the point where it wasn't an issue, but after dealing with the nerf, the horrible expansions of PoP, garbage LDoN and then watching GoD come out as a slap to the face for 6 man groupers, and the constant catering to whining top guilds in terms of content (Furor throwing tantrums and making threats to SoE if he didn't get what he wanted), I was done. It is also why I am slightly concerned about Pantheon when it comes to raiding. If they stick to raids being a minority focus for the game, I am fine, but... if they go the route of EQ, I won't even bother to try and stay playing due to the fact that they will end up designing content around the raid gear ultimately which will result in the same problems I had in EQ with the nerf and AC. If you weren't raiding high enough to push past the cap, your class was pretty much a single focus class. 

    For the Bards and pulling, yeah... a bad bard was an issue, but if they were good at all, they were better pullers in all but very specific cases, especially if a monk had taught them all the tricks to pulling already. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 28, 2019 6:16 AM PST
    • 20 posts
    January 28, 2019 6:52 AM PST

     

    Tanix said:

    Fragile said:

    Monk was top tier dps during all that time though, then rivaling rogues post-2.0's - The tank nerf sucked but if raid geared, you could still tank non-bosses no problem. As far as damage shields, thats why your cleric had the Mark of Karn line plus the OoW AA's (you quit before this) that made your offhand not take damage from damage shields (or Ripostes). 2hd'ers were never better, ever (assuming you didn't have crap 1hd'ers). In my raids I always just told bards to sit back down lol, but none of them were really that skilled at pulling anyway.

     

    Sure, but then I didn't play the class for DPS (honestly I never considered EQ classes in terms of that min/max view  of class vs class when I started), rather its general description on release of being a class that could be defensive, do damage, and having other utilties (mend/bind wound specialty, sneak, throwing, etc...). 

    As for the nerf, yeah... if you were above the magic 2200 AC, you could still do ok after the nerf in group tanking, but when that hit, my gear was around 1800 AC. Only those who were doing VT or had key very difficult items to get were pushing that number. So, the nerf killed all but top raiders, which to be honest was another issue. While I did raid, I was never cutting edge (always raiding an expansion behind usually), So all of us monks who were not top of the food chain all of a sudden found our ability to tank in groups stripped from us. 

    I remember Monkly Business doing extensive parses (thousands of hours of play) that showed a druid in leather armor was mitigating 10% better than a monk after the nerf (SoE denied it), but that wasn't just the issue, there was something odd in the change that caused crits to be more common as well, above other classes, even cloth wearers. It didn't kill my pulling as I was always a "touchless" puller who didn't rely on AC to save me even before the change, but my ability to MT in groups or even OT became burdensome to the group as healers couldn't keep up with the damage (I became a mana sponge). I remember the last day I played, I was doing Droga with a ranger and druid. Eventually we just had the ranger tank because they were easier to heal than I, and keep in mind this was a druid who had healed me for 5 years of group all the way up from our teen levels in the game. 

    Like you said though, top raid geared could push the caps to the point where it wasn't an issue, but after dealing with the nerf, the horrible expansions of PoP, garbage LDoN and then watching GoD come out as a slap to the face for 6 man groupers, and the constant catering to whining top guilds in terms of content (Furor throwing tantrums and making threats to SoE if he didn't get what he wanted), I was done. It is also why I am slightly concerned about Pantheon when it comes to raiding. If they stick to raids being a minority focus for the game, I am fine, but... if they go the route of EQ, I won't even bother to try and stay playing due to the fact that they will end up designing content around the raid gear ultimately which will result in the same problems I had in EQ with the nerf and AC. If you weren't raiding high enough to push past the cap, your class was pretty much a single focus class. 

    For the Bards and pulling, yeah... a bad bard was an issue, but if they were good at all, they were better pullers in all but very specific cases, especially if a monk had taught them all the tricks to pulling already. 

    GoD was kinda a slap in the face to a lot of classes. Just about every mob summoned so the classes that would kite while looking for a group had a lot harder time doing it. It wasn’t impossible but just very difficult.

    Also a bad bard could still pull but they did it slower. Their fade AA was a no fail instant hate wipe and memblur on any mobs pissed at them. I know it upset quite a few monks especially when they were replaced with bards for group pulling.

    And SOE denied everything for every class Lol. I do remember Furors rants though and they were always good for a laugh and for exposing SOE’s incompetence with releasing content too early and trying to hide it or expect that the top end guilds wouldn’t blow past their inflated difficulty boss checks or that certain key pieces didn’t drop.

    I quit when GoD hit as the game was getting away from the devs at this point. Previous expansions were upping the mob health so they compensated by releasing even better gear but if you fell behind at any time in the gear mill the next expansion mobs would eat you alive.

    Im hoping these devs learned lessons from other games and find a happy medium with increasing mob stats in future expansions/updates and the gear grind needed to combat them

    • 1039 posts
    January 28, 2019 9:15 AM PST

    Kefo said:

     

    Tanix said:

    Fragile said:

    Monk was top tier dps during all that time though, then rivaling rogues post-2.0's - The tank nerf sucked but if raid geared, you could still tank non-bosses no problem. As far as damage shields, thats why your cleric had the Mark of Karn line plus the OoW AA's (you quit before this) that made your offhand not take damage from damage shields (or Ripostes). 2hd'ers were never better, ever (assuming you didn't have crap 1hd'ers). In my raids I always just told bards to sit back down lol, but none of them were really that skilled at pulling anyway.

     

    Sure, but then I didn't play the class for DPS (honestly I never considered EQ classes in terms of that min/max view  of class vs class when I started), rather its general description on release of being a class that could be defensive, do damage, and having other utilties (mend/bind wound specialty, sneak, throwing, etc...). 

    As for the nerf, yeah... if you were above the magic 2200 AC, you could still do ok after the nerf in group tanking, but when that hit, my gear was around 1800 AC. Only those who were doing VT or had key very difficult items to get were pushing that number. So, the nerf killed all but top raiders, which to be honest was another issue. While I did raid, I was never cutting edge (always raiding an expansion behind usually), So all of us monks who were not top of the food chain all of a sudden found our ability to tank in groups stripped from us. 

    I remember Monkly Business doing extensive parses (thousands of hours of play) that showed a druid in leather armor was mitigating 10% better than a monk after the nerf (SoE denied it), but that wasn't just the issue, there was something odd in the change that caused crits to be more common as well, above other classes, even cloth wearers. It didn't kill my pulling as I was always a "touchless" puller who didn't rely on AC to save me even before the change, but my ability to MT in groups or even OT became burdensome to the group as healers couldn't keep up with the damage (I became a mana sponge). I remember the last day I played, I was doing Droga with a ranger and druid. Eventually we just had the ranger tank because they were easier to heal than I, and keep in mind this was a druid who had healed me for 5 years of group all the way up from our teen levels in the game. 

    Like you said though, top raid geared could push the caps to the point where it wasn't an issue, but after dealing with the nerf, the horrible expansions of PoP, garbage LDoN and then watching GoD come out as a slap to the face for 6 man groupers, and the constant catering to whining top guilds in terms of content (Furor throwing tantrums and making threats to SoE if he didn't get what he wanted), I was done. It is also why I am slightly concerned about Pantheon when it comes to raiding. If they stick to raids being a minority focus for the game, I am fine, but... if they go the route of EQ, I won't even bother to try and stay playing due to the fact that they will end up designing content around the raid gear ultimately which will result in the same problems I had in EQ with the nerf and AC. If you weren't raiding high enough to push past the cap, your class was pretty much a single focus class. 

    For the Bards and pulling, yeah... a bad bard was an issue, but if they were good at all, they were better pullers in all but very specific cases, especially if a monk had taught them all the tricks to pulling already. 

    GoD was kinda a slap in the face to a lot of classes. Just about every mob summoned so the classes that would kite while looking for a group had a lot harder time doing it. It wasn’t impossible but just very difficult.

    Also a bad bard could still pull but they did it slower. Their fade AA was a no fail instant hate wipe and memblur on any mobs pissed at them. I know it upset quite a few monks especially when they were replaced with bards for group pulling.

    And SOE denied everything for every class Lol. I do remember Furors rants though and they were always good for a laugh and for exposing SOE’s incompetence with releasing content too early and trying to hide it or expect that the top end guilds wouldn’t blow past their inflated difficulty boss checks or that certain key pieces didn’t drop.

    I quit when GoD hit as the game was getting away from the devs at this point. Previous expansions were upping the mob health so they compensated by releasing even better gear but if you fell behind at any time in the gear mill the next expansion mobs would eat you alive.

    Im hoping these devs learned lessons from other games and find a happy medium with increasing mob stats in future expansions/updates and the gear grind needed to combat them

     

    I do as well. Yeah, Furor was a character, but he really stuck it to monks with his calls for the nerf and then later admitted they went way too far. He always bugged me, him and Thott (the bard) who would troll Monkly Business going on about how monks deserved the nerf and how bards (even while he was swarm kiting HoH ) still needed attention. I just hope they don't turn this game into an EQ raid clone. 

    Yep, SOE denied everything except admitting they had no clue how to deal with the Bard code. I rember a dev going on about how it was very difficult to deal with the bard code because they were unsure how to make changes to it (this was when SOE took over after Verant left after Velious if I remember right) when people asked why certain aspects of the bards design were as they were (aka why the hell do the keep getting more powerful). 

    The one thing I love though was having tons of SOE threads (before they closed the forums) and then later have them claim things that were COMPLETELY opposite of their previous positions. The problem with plat selling was one. There used to be pages of the developers talking about the numerous issues with plat/item sellers (remember Yantis?) and how this was destroying the game only to have SoE years later open up a RMT server claiming the practice was good for the game. /facepalm


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 28, 2019 9:17 AM PST
    • 221 posts
    January 28, 2019 2:11 PM PST

    Yantis, wow - there's a name I haven't seen in forever.

    • 4 posts
    November 7, 2019 4:43 AM PST
    The vanguard !well played! Monk was always top tier dps in raids. He also could tank few raid targets: war golem, mercaius, ..., some APW bosses. But for sure he was a really good choice for off tanking raid adds. wasnt really good in holding Aggro on multiple mobs, but on single targets yes. KDQ runs, dungeon runs, city of brass and so on...all good with monk tank. A blast soloing and capable of soloing quite a few mobs. Quick and dirty. Insane burst damage.
    The vanguard monk had 2 pathes to choose from. DPS and avoidance (small 2-3hrs questline). Every path also had 2 difference stances, which could be changed every time. As Chris Perkins hinted, the Pantheon monk can come with 2 stances/path to choose from. DPS or avoidance. Pretty excited with what they come out on monk, but pretty sure, he won’t be just a silly pulling class ;)