Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Subscription Concerns

    • 3237 posts
    November 20, 2018 3:43 AM PST

    Standard month to month subscription rate:  $19.99

    Discounted monthly rate for 6 month advanced purchase:  $17.99

    Discounted monthly rate for 12 month advanced purchase:  $14.99

     

    I wouldn't mind seeing the above.  At the end of the day, VR can charge a premium rate if they deliver on their tenets.  There is no "industry standard" for that type of service.

    • 793 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:23 AM PST

    Bronsun said:

    Sadly a subsription model is the best way all around. As soon as you go down a FTP, cash stores or some other variation things get bad. I believe 15$ a month is a doable amount. Even in this terrible economy where most people don't even make that an hour.

    As an idea, to give people who were on a lower income level an opportunity to play, perhaps offer a monthly subscription range that had a fixed time cap per day to play for a lower pricet. This could be attached to their account and when the player reached a login timer amount their account would be locked until they paid the next month or bought more time. This is just an idea I thought of right now so don't kill the messenger.

    Example; using a 30 day month.

    15$ a month - gets the player 24hours a day. They can play as much as they want. 720 hours a month.

    10$ a month - 12hours a day or until time runs out. They can 360 hours a month.

    5$ a month - 6hours a day or until time runs out. 180 hours a month.

     

    Terrible idea?

     

    The idea isn't bad, but your numbers are.

    $10 a month for 12 hours a day? That's like 95% of your playerbase.

    Even $5 at 6hrs/day would probably cover 80% or more, a large majority.

     

    Something more like

    $10/month gets you 60hrs a month, use them all in 2.5 days if you want.

    $15/month get you 90hrs a month.

    $20 gets you unlimited

     

    Even at that I myself, would fall in the $15 dollar range typically, as I usually get in 3-4hrs a night 4-5 nights a week, maybe longer on weekends sometimes.

    That would put me at 4hrs x 5 days = 20 hrs x 4 weeks = 80 hrs

    But I would still go unlimited just because I do sometimes get in longer sessions, and just hate having to track my time. :)

    Maybe even $10 for 40, $15 for 60

     


    This post was edited by Fulton at November 20, 2018 4:34 AM PST
    • 178 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:38 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Standard month to month subscription rate:  $14.99

    Discounted monthly rate for 6 month advanced purchase:  $12.49

    Discounted monthly rate for 12 month advanced purchase:  $9.99

     I wouldn't mind seeing the above. 

    fixed that for ya....

    youre welcome.

    there is an industry standard, and many many "casual" players who might have tried panteon and stayed, will not do that if the subscription will be above 15$.

     

    • 3237 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:59 AM PST

    You didn't fix anything for me.  I stated what I personally wouldn't mind seeing and I stand firm on that.

    • 1247 posts
    November 20, 2018 5:04 AM PST

    @1AD7 yea, that’s fine. I wouldn’t mind paying a little more, so long as it’s subsciption based.

    • 2138 posts
    November 20, 2018 8:16 AM PST

    *looks for the righteous necro seeking to slay the evily charismatic drood so Manouk can experience shadenfrued, lest they be heeded by the gods*

    • 1860 posts
    November 20, 2018 10:23 AM PST

    How did this change into talking about specific subscription rates? lol We are good at getting off topic...anyway, here's this:

    Aradune said:  I think we've something we have to prove, that Pantheon is going to be fun, and fun long term (months and even years).  VR is a small company and Pantheon will be our first MMO (or, really, first 'anything').  Because of that I don't think it would be wise to charge more than what is 'industry standard'.  Perhaps some servers that offer something 'more' would have a higher sub, but we need to figure out what that 'more' is and make sure it ressonates with a large enough portion of our target audience.    Now if we were EA, or Microsoft, or Activision, etc., maybe we could change the industry and successfully raise the 'sub standard'-- but we are not (yet anyway :)

     

    • 646 posts
    November 20, 2018 11:57 AM PST

    Bronsun said:A $14.99 sub fee is fair considering the average household income hasn't risen to meet the cost of living in well over a decade either so it kind of balances out. Sadly MMO's are a reflection of income stagnation and not the inflation of the real world.

    Indeed. It's especially significant when people often pay multiple subs for a household. I definitely would not be willing to pay more than $15/month for an MMO subscription.

    • 363 posts
    November 20, 2018 12:13 PM PST

    Fulton said:

     

    The idea isn't bad, but your numbers are.

    $10 a month for 12 hours a day? That's like 95% of your playerbase.

    Even $5 at 6hrs/day would probably cover 80% or more, a large majority.

     

    Something more like

    $10/month gets you 60hrs a month, use them all in 2.5 days if you want.

    $15/month get you 90hrs a month.

    $20 gets you unlimited

     

    Even at that I myself, would fall in the $15 dollar range typically, as I usually get in 3-4hrs a night 4-5 nights a week, maybe longer on weekends sometimes.

    That would put me at 4hrs x 5 days = 20 hrs x 4 weeks = 80 hrs

    But I would still go unlimited just because I do sometimes get in longer sessions, and just hate having to track my time. :)

    Maybe even $10 for 40, $15 for 60

     

     

    Sure. It was just a quick idea. The numbers can be crunched to work much better. The idea was to allow people to pay and still play within their price range.  :D

    • 145 posts
    November 20, 2018 12:53 PM PST

    Thestus said:

    My fear is that the majority won't.  I'm only pointing out something I saw happen with my own eyes (internally - not as an outside observer).  And yes, I understand what FTP means (micro-transactions, in-game store, etc).  Is that preferred?  No.  Not to me.  I'm just concerned that a subscription won't produce the necessary funds for a successful MMORPG.  

     

    I knew posting this would result in some passionate responses.  But like I said, it's a conern.  I posted anyway because I care, and in my experience I've seen a product fail with a sub model and be saved by FTP (and if you're wondering, I was a huge proponent for the sub-model then too). 

     

    A good way to address this concern, yet give people a chance might be to institute something like Isle of Dawn in Vanguard. Where players have a chance to level and do a little bit of everything and then once they leave the island they can decide whether or not it's worth the sub. Island went up to level 10 on adventuring, diplomacy, and crafting. All spheres.  I do feel you make an excellent point with your concern. Because I know a BUNCH of MMO players who only play stuff if it's free. You give them a chance to get hooked on something they may pay the subscription. But they need that chance to get hooked or they will never even try the game. These aren't a player base you can count on unfortunately. But you may draw thousands of loyal long term customers in that you wouldn't have normally had.

    I'm all for subs too, I think it's one of the best ways to keep spam, and unwanted kiddies out of the game. And people who wont pay a subscription are probably not players you are targetting with this mmo anyways. However to get a nice healthy population you need people trying this game. And you need them to get a taste of it before they have to spend so much money buying the game, then subscribing to the game.

    • 287 posts
    November 20, 2018 1:57 PM PST

    I, too, am in favor of the subscription model. WoW and FFXIV are currently still going strong using a subscription model so I think the OP's fears are unfounded.  F2P may bring in more players but they're not at all committed to the game and tend to ruin the community.  No thanks.

    I'm even in favor of microtransactions so long as the items are purely cosmetic or offer things customer service typically deals with (gender changes, etc).  This quote caught me off guard though:

    Beefcake said:

    I really hope VR never brings in micro transactions. I have seen it destroy the economy of too many games, especially EQ2, my favorite.

    Can you elaborate on that?  I usually hold up EQ2's microtransactions as being the model other games should aim for.  They sold outfits, stuff to build your house with, titles and other non-game-impacting things like that.  Did this change recently?  EQ2's economy was never strong but there was never any impact on that economy from the in-game cash shop that I saw -- no overlap with crafters' goods.

    • 1479 posts
    November 20, 2018 2:14 PM PST

    Can you elaborate on that?  I usually hold up EQ2's microtransactions as being the model other games should aim for.  They sold outfits, stuff to build your house with, titles and other non-game-impacting things like that.  Did this change recently?  EQ2's economy was never strong but there was never any impact on that economy from the in-game cash shop that I saw -- no overlap with crafters' goods.

     

    As long as game modeling is torned between doing cool stuff avaliable throught playing and throught cash shops, you usually ends up having a lot more in the cash shop than in the game.

    • 287 posts
    November 20, 2018 2:23 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Can you elaborate on that?  I usually hold up EQ2's microtransactions as being the model other games should aim for.  They sold outfits, stuff to build your house with, titles and other non-game-impacting things like that.  Did this change recently?  EQ2's economy was never strong but there was never any impact on that economy from the in-game cash shop that I saw -- no overlap with crafters' goods.

     

    As long as game modeling is torned between doing cool stuff avaliable throught playing and throught cash shops, you usually ends up having a lot more in the cash shop than in the game.

    That's a fair point but if the income from monthly subs can't cover the cost of adding non-cash-shop cool stuff and there is no cash shop then you get neither.  And if they can do both what's the harm?  Is it just about "my $20/mo should get me everything available in the game"?  Or something else?

    • 211 posts
    November 20, 2018 2:33 PM PST

    Is this something the special ruleset servers could deal with? Maybe not a good idea for a special 'shard' to be f2p with microtransactions? That server could be like the Wild West with all the undesirables haha!

    • 1479 posts
    November 20, 2018 2:36 PM PST

    Akilae said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Can you elaborate on that?  I usually hold up EQ2's microtransactions as being the model other games should aim for.  They sold outfits, stuff to build your house with, titles and other non-game-impacting things like that.  Did this change recently?  EQ2's economy was never strong but there was never any impact on that economy from the in-game cash shop that I saw -- no overlap with crafters' goods.

     

    As long as game modeling is torned between doing cool stuff avaliable throught playing and throught cash shops, you usually ends up having a lot more in the cash shop than in the game.

    That's a fair point but if the income from monthly subs can't cover the cost of adding non-cash-shop cool stuff and there is no cash shop then you get neither.  And if they can do both what's the harm?  Is it just about "my $20/mo should get me everything available in the game"?  Or something else?

     

    Paying an access and sub to a game is already signing for full content as long as you're able to defeat it or defeat the odds, yes.

    Basically, a decade ago MMO were designed even in a different way : As long as you paid the game and/or expansions, you had the full access to whatever you paid for. The sub was for routine cost like server hosting, routine fix and patches, not even for content. That's where we are now : You pay a game and/or expansions but you HAVE to pay the monthly fee to get access to streamlined content that should be baseline in the game/xpac you bought. Sub is not meant to sustain the game's forward development but for routine costs, game and expansions are however meant to be fully paid by their own sale.

    They stated it themselves, as long as they have a few thousands players or so, they can sustain the game. Bringing cash shot into the equation is not only bad for us, users, but for the game's longevity and goals. Brad even did a conference to explain how micro transaction were putting the development teams in a small cycle of "design and get cash immediately" at the cost of the overall game longevity and future. Because micro transactions are a short term goal and game depending on it loose interest months after months until even MT cannot sustain the game anymore, and ultimately zap it.

    MT also breaks the core fundamental of any game we play online : We are not paying to get more or less than the others, and IRL fortune should never have any influence over what we get even if it's just cosmetic.


    This post was edited by Mauvais_Oeil at November 20, 2018 2:37 PM PST
    • 1714 posts
    November 20, 2018 3:34 PM PST

    $15 a month is a joke when people pay that much for a movie ticket and spend $10 a day on coffee drinks and cigarettes and all those other things. People bringing up income issues for $15 a month for a game they might play 100 hours in that time blow my mind. 

    • 627 posts
    November 20, 2018 3:43 PM PST
    Some games Sella for "less" depending on what country you are living in. For instance Eu price might be 10 us dollars, where Asian price might 5 us dollars (as an example). If VR adjust their subscription fee to fit their buyers location, maybe we will see a big increase in the player Base, and earn more revenue over all. Just an idea that I personally would not mind seeing.

    I'm located in Denmark our prices are high and income are high aswell. So I would have to pay "more" than a guy who earns "less" compared to Western standards.

    I fell the only functionally solution is the subscription model, I would not mind paying for cosmetics, mounts or emotes to give VR the possibility to earn more than what they get from all their subscriptions.

    Upwards and onward friends!
    • 646 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:16 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:$15 a month is a joke when people pay that much for a movie ticket and spend $10 a day on coffee drinks and cigarettes and all those other things. People bringing up income issues for $15 a month for a game they might play 100 hours in that time blow my mind.

    Lots of people don't do any of that. Ridiculous assumptions don't help you.

    • 287 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:23 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    MT also breaks the core fundamental of any game we play online : We are not paying to get more or less than the others, and IRL fortune should never have any influence over what we get even if it's just cosmetic.

    Something else to consider:

    In EQ2 you monthly sub included some amount of "sony cash" (or whatever it was called, I no longer recall).  You could save that up and use that to purchase consmetics or whetever in the store.  I bought plenty of stuff in the store but never once spent extra dollars to do so.  The "store" became just another source of cosmetic items for purely vanity reasons, not much different than saving up gold to buy something from a vendor. 

    • 1618 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:45 PM PST

    Akilae said:

    I, too, am in favor of the subscription model. WoW and FFXIV are currently still going strong using a subscription model so I think the OP's fears are unfounded.  F2P may bring in more players but they're not at all committed to the game and tend to ruin the community.  No thanks.

    I'm even in favor of microtransactions so long as the items are purely cosmetic or offer things customer service typically deals with (gender changes, etc).  This quote caught me off guard though:

    Beefcake said:

    I really hope VR never brings in micro transactions. I have seen it destroy the economy of too many games, especially EQ2, my favorite.

    Can you elaborate on that?  I usually hold up EQ2's microtransactions as being the model other games should aim for.  They sold outfits, stuff to build your house with, titles and other non-game-impacting things like that.  Did this change recently?  EQ2's economy was never strong but there was never any impact on that economy from the in-game cash shop that I saw -- no overlap with crafters' goods.

    Not sure your experience, but cosmetic good sold in microtransactions, combined with Krono, totally wiped out the economy.

    Why get decent gear from crafters, when you were able to bypass levels through XP potions?

    Krono, Cosmetic options, Xp potions, and the like gave plat sellers a way to cash out.

    This totally destroyed the economy.

    • 1618 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:48 PM PST

    AgentGenX said:

    Is this something the special ruleset servers could deal with? Maybe not a good idea for a special 'shard' to be f2p with microtransactions? That server could be like the Wild West with all the undesirables haha!

    Please no. Once a company starts seeing the income possibilities from micro transactions, they will soon move all servers to them.

    Don‘t open the gates. We will all get flooded.

    • 1618 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:51 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Can you elaborate on that?  I usually hold up EQ2's microtransactions as being the model other games should aim for.  They sold outfits, stuff to build your house with, titles and other non-game-impacting things like that.  Did this change recently?  EQ2's economy was never strong but there was never any impact on that economy from the in-game cash shop that I saw -- no overlap with crafters' goods.

     

    As long as game modeling is torned between doing cool stuff avaliable throught playing and throught cash shops, you usually ends up having a lot more in the cash shop than in the game.

    Exactly. Once EQ2 opened their cash shop, they stop developing nice looking items for loot and crafters. If you wanted something cool, it had to be bought from the cash shop.

    VR keeps saying that they want gear to be distinctive and people to recognize their appearance. That gets blown away when you start selling items through a cash shop.

    • 3016 posts
    November 20, 2018 5:01 PM PST

    I am absolutely fine with a sub model.   15 to 20 dollars a month for a month's worth of entertainment...cheap, cheap, cheap these days.  Those that want free to play and cash shops have their pick of other games that do that.    

     

    Cana

    • 363 posts
    November 20, 2018 5:04 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    $15 a month is a joke when people pay that much for a movie ticket and spend $10 a day on coffee drinks and cigarettes and all those other things. People bringing up income issues for $15 a month for a game they might play 100 hours in that time blow my mind. 

     

    5$ for a cup of coffee lasts 30 mins if that. When you buy an game MMO you pay 60$ for the world. Then 15$ per month for access it. Netflix is cheaper. You try getting people to pay more than 15$ and you will definitely see Pantheon fail. Just because you're swimming in money don't assume everyone is. Maybe the wealthy players can have a special place for them in the world. Elysium? ;P

    • 3016 posts
    November 20, 2018 5:11 PM PST

    Bronsun said:

    Keno Monster said:

    $15 a month is a joke when people pay that much for a movie ticket and spend $10 a day on coffee drinks and cigarettes and all those other things. People bringing up income issues for $15 a month for a game they might play 100 hours in that time blow my mind. 

     

    5$ for a cup of coffee lasts 30 mins if that. When you buy an game MMO you pay 60$ for the world. Then 15$ per month for access it. Netflix is cheaper. You try getting people to pay more than 15$ and you will definitely see Pantheon fail. Just because you're swimming in money don't assume everyone is. Maybe the wealthy players can have a special place for them in the world. Elysium? ;P

     

    The assumption I read here is "everyone here is swimming in money"   not true.    And 15 bucks for 30 to 31 days of entering the game and playing many, many hours ..as opposed to going to a bar (50 to 100 bucks)  or going to a movie (20 to 30 bucks for a few hours)  is a pretty cheap form of entertainment.   If you are paying for cash shop items you are paying much more than that 15 bucks a month..."free to play" isn't at all free to play...its a rip off marketting tool that too many people have fallen for over the years.      

     

    Cana