i think that in a group setting, if youre bringing an offtank, you can swap the CC (Enchanter) for an extra dps class. If i was doing this i would go with Warrior, Wizard, Monk, Rogue, Ranger, Shaman. This group has pulls, emergency CC, melee buffs and alot of damage. If im bringing an enchanter i would go with Any of the 3 tanks, Enchanter, Cleric, Wizard, Summoner, Rogue. In either of the cases, i think bringing 2 healers for a 6man group wont be ideal :)
Janus said:They don't slow things down. In fact, let's say you remove the Bard and the Shaman and place another Rogue and an Enchanter instead. Now the Cleric mana is able to compete with the content with no issue of requiring side heals. You have Melee AND Spell Slows and you have Melee Hastes AND Spell Hastes. You also have something Shaman's don't have, a Damage Reduction Debuff that stacks with Slow. Then you factor in long term Silences since spell use from NPCs is apparently a major issue to Healer mana, especially those mobs that use high damage PBAE or AE attacks. Then you factor in 60 second long Pacify which allows you to single pull if need be, Regular Mez to lock down multiple targets, an AE mez and an Unresistable Mez. This while the Enchanter can Siphon Mana from their targets having far fewer issues with mana than you may lead on. Then let's get into Charm and Shock & Awe which when used by a skilled Enchanter not only can remove two targets from a fight, it creates additional damage for the group that exceeds that of a single DPS class.
If we take EQ1 as the drawing board...
On paper this looks good. But it doesnt work in game that way. If you only have 1 healer you are limited in speed by that healers mana. If you arent driving your cleric oom after a certain amount of time, you're not killing fast enough, or pulling fast enough. By dropping the shaman and bard you lose massive group buff synergy with the melee classes, over haste alone will out dps anything the enchanter brings to the table (not including charm, which I will touch on).
If you roll with a single healer, you can never do anything that exceeds that healers capabilities. When you have the shaman providing the defensive utility (in the form of cripples and slows) and then falling back on spot heals, you can pretty much engage any mob you want without fear.
Charming for exp is not worth it. You're either dire charming something too low, or you're normal charming something too high. If you're not hasting your pet, again, it's not worth it. And it's not worth the risk to haste your pet AND provide slows and buffs.
Not to mention you are not relying on 2 mana pools (cleric and chanter) as opposed to 1 (cleric) since cannibalize gives shaman unlimited mana.
The only way you would be able to fit an enchanter into a group and compete with what I've mentioned would be if you went Clr, War, Enc, Nec, Nec, Wiz.
And you would need to engage mobs that allowed the necros to mind wrack, since it would be a 600 mana gain for everyone and the necros would break even. You would also need to fight mobs that are susceptible to both poison and fire so that the necros can dot and nuke to their hearts content.
The downfall in this group is that you have no puller. (And even if the enchanter pulls it's still not as efficient) and you have no bard (for spell damage and regen song for the necros). If you drop the wizard for a bard. you dont have enough dps to compete. And you also lack a secondary healer, but the extra mana the necros provide allow the chanter to rune liberally which can assist in a pinch.
Theres just nothing as efficient as my group makeup. Trust me I've tried them all lol, and if I havent. I've directly competed against them.
Ezrael said:How much DPS will your all melee group be doing when you come up against mobs with heavy AoE? Or when you come up against a mob with insane AC and melee damage mitigation?
Also, your assumptions of having 3 Rogues for CC while outputting crazy DPS also forgets that Smoke and Mirrors costs 75% endurance, if you use it then that Rogue loses a lot of damage output for a period of time before their endurance can regenerate.
For having CC on demand from those Rogues also means they can't fully DPS because they must always have 75% endurance available on demand to use Smoke and Mirrors, either you go full DPS and can't use it, one Rogue never goes full DPS, or all of you try to reserve a bit while maintaining only steadier DPS.
I sincerely doubt there will be many mobs in the game that chain cast aoe spells. If it's a single 1 time aoe, or a timed aoe, that is exactly what the shaman is there for. Backup heals.
And you I don't think you comprehend the whole rogue CCing aspect. Rogue energy seemed to work alot like wow rogue energy. Meaning if I know I'm pulling 2 mobs. 1 of my rogues will be on CC duty on incoming (with a 2nd on as backup incase of a resist). There is no dps on incoming, so this does not affect the fight. Once the mob is CCd that rogue can go all out from tha point on, 18 seconds after the mob would need to be CCd again. Which just means that 12 seconds into the fight one of the rogues eases up and starts to pool energy, the mob will already be slowed and debuffed by the shaman, and depending on the 1st mobs life, and how dangerous they are. You might even see the warrior just tank 2 after the first CC is up.
Point is. The rogues arent going to be standing around with 75 energy at all times. They will have it when they need it.
And your point about white damage (or melee attacks, auto attacks, whatever you want to call it) is incorrect. Every mmo that I have ever played has had the majority of damage coming from auto attacks. It doesnt make sense otherwise. The abilities stem their to augment the melee attacks. Not the other way around.
Porygon said:Ezrael said:How much DPS will your all melee group be doing when you come up against mobs with heavy AoE? Or when you come up against a mob with insane AC and melee damage mitigation?
Also, your assumptions of having 3 Rogues for CC while outputting crazy DPS also forgets that Smoke and Mirrors costs 75% endurance, if you use it then that Rogue loses a lot of damage output for a period of time before their endurance can regenerate.
For having CC on demand from those Rogues also means they can't fully DPS because they must always have 75% endurance available on demand to use Smoke and Mirrors, either you go full DPS and can't use it, one Rogue never goes full DPS, or all of you try to reserve a bit while maintaining only steadier DPS.
I sincerely doubt there will be many mobs in the game that chain cast aoe spells. If it's a single 1 time aoe, or a timed aoe, that is exactly what the shaman is there for. Backup heals.
And you I don't think you comprehend the whole rogue CCing aspect. Rogue energy seemed to work alot like wow rogue energy. Meaning if I know I'm pulling 2 mobs. 1 of my rogues will be on CC duty on incoming (with a 2nd on as backup incase of a resist). There is no dps on incoming, so this does not affect the fight. Once the mob is CCd that rogue can go all out from tha point on, 18 seconds after the mob would need to be CCd again. Which just means that 12 seconds into the fight one of the rogues eases up and starts to pool energy, the mob will already be slowed and debuffed by the shaman, and depending on the 1st mobs life, and how dangerous they are. You might even see the warrior just tank 2 after the first CC is up.
Point is. The rogues arent going to be standing around with 75 energy at all times. They will have it when they need it.
And your point about white damage (or melee attacks, auto attacks, whatever you want to call it) is incorrect. Every mmo that I have ever played has had the majority of damage coming from auto attacks. It doesnt make sense otherwise. The abilities stem their to augment the melee attacks. Not the other way around.
Just to add : The shaman's slow last time I checked was tied to a dot debuff, thus impossible to cook mezzed adds before breaking cc.
Edit : seems like the primal curse is not dependant of the bane, my bad. Might still be complicate depending of mana cost and resists.
Anyway, about rogue ccing what is the problem with pooling 75 energy ? It's around 7.5s of regen, worth even less if you only delay your least dps skills. A ench has to cast and spend mana anyway.
Porygon said:Ezrael said:How much DPS will your all melee group be doing when you come up against mobs with heavy AoE? Or when you come up against a mob with insane AC and melee damage mitigation?
Also, your assumptions of having 3 Rogues for CC while outputting crazy DPS also forgets that Smoke and Mirrors costs 75% endurance, if you use it then that Rogue loses a lot of damage output for a period of time before their endurance can regenerate.
For having CC on demand from those Rogues also means they can't fully DPS because they must always have 75% endurance available on demand to use Smoke and Mirrors, either you go full DPS and can't use it, one Rogue never goes full DPS, or all of you try to reserve a bit while maintaining only steadier DPS.
I sincerely doubt there will be many mobs in the game that chain cast aoe spells. If it's a single 1 time aoe, or a timed aoe, that is exactly what the shaman is there for. Backup heals.
And you I don't think you comprehend the whole rogue CCing aspect. Rogue energy seemed to work alot like wow rogue energy. Meaning if I know I'm pulling 2 mobs. 1 of my rogues will be on CC duty on incoming (with a 2nd on as backup incase of a resist). There is no dps on incoming, so this does not affect the fight. Once the mob is CCd that rogue can go all out from tha point on, 18 seconds after the mob would need to be CCd again. Which just means that 12 seconds into the fight one of the rogues eases up and starts to pool energy, the mob will already be slowed and debuffed by the shaman, and depending on the 1st mobs life, and how dangerous they are. You might even see the warrior just tank 2 after the first CC is up.
Point is. The rogues arent going to be standing around with 75 energy at all times. They will have it when they need it.
And your point about white damage (or melee attacks, auto attacks, whatever you want to call it) is incorrect. Every mmo that I have ever played has had the majority of damage coming from auto attacks. It doesnt make sense otherwise. The abilities stem their to augment the melee attacks. Not the other way around.
We've already seen mobs with multiple AoEs and mobs with vicious AoEs. These could be frequent or damaging enough to either burn all your healer's mana on group heals or to reduce your party DPS so much that the healer goes OOM.
Rogue CC is a clutch extra option. It is not something I would rely on and build a 'meta party' around at all. It uses a different mechanic and resistance check and is likely harder to lower the resistance check on enemies in the same way that mesmerise can be for Enchanters.
Melee DPS only - creates a very restricted group that I don't see working well across such a variety of content.
Auto-attacks making up the majority of damage in MMOs? In What since EQ1?
All the last MMOs I've played had actual abilities make up the vast majority of damage: GW2, Rift, Aion, Vanguard, EQ2.
Melee auto attack damage is minor supplemental damage between ability usage in all of these games.
You seem to be looking at everything through EQ tinted glasses, your theory crafting is archaic and based upon metrics that we just haven't seen any evidence of in either the design documents and tenents or the actual stream footage.
I would also point out, some of the calculations are being made on currently standing skill performance on streams, which have not gone through balancing yet. Right now, getting the skills designed and implemented is more the focus with tuning them for balance to come later. To evaluate how any class will perform at this point is pointless until the first round of adjustments to skills are made.
Porygon said:
"If we take EQ1 as the drawing board...
On paper this looks good. But it doesnt work in game that way. If you only have 1 healer you are limited in speed by that healers mana. If you arent driving your cleric oom after a certain amount of time, you're not killing fast enough, or pulling fast enough."
Except, by having the issue of multiple mobs, if all aren't dealt with you will have healer mana problems. It helps to remember that Healer mana is helped by both CC, Melee slow and Melee reduction, not to mention silences since spells and AE damage will be a huge factor. Then you have Clarity and mana from nukes. For this reason, Healer mana is far less an issue since you only have to worry about healing a tank who's taking mitigated damage from one mob of which can't cast or use abilities and can be removed entirely from acting through chain stuns or Malison's Lucid Nightmare spell which also has the effect of allowing the Healer to cast without using any resources.
"By dropping the shaman and bard you lose massive group buff synergy with the melee classes, over haste alone will out dps anything the enchanter brings to the table (not including charm, which I will touch on)."
Except, we don't know if Bard haste will stack with Shaman/Enchanter haste. You're doing what you accused me of doing in using Everquest as an example which in turn may not apply to Pantheon. Bringing an Enchanter or Bard may have the same effect and will likely all have stacking issues with regard to haste as Shaman outside of Spell Haste.
"If you roll with a single healer, you can never do anything that exceeds that healers capabilities."
That's the role and one of the largest benefactors of the Enchanter. To make the impossible possible and the possible efficient. You create an atmosphere that's as perfect as you can get from which the Healer may thrive in.
"When you have the shaman providing the defensive utility (in the form of cripples and slows) and then falling back on spot heals, you can pretty much engage any mob you want without fear."
Except the Enchanter has Slows and Damage reduction (which stack), Stuns, Silences, (Again, you're using EQ here as the Incapacitate line isn't in) and can remove all damage from a mob entirely. Not to mention removing a number of mobs out of the fight to be taken one on one. The only advantage is the spot heals but that falls to the issue of provding a 50% boost when that Enchanter would have provided a 120% boost when taken as a whole for both classes in the Support/Control archetype.
"Charming for exp is not worth it. You're either dire charming something too low, or you're normal charming something too high. If you're not hasting your pet, again, it's not worth it. And it's not worth the risk to haste your pet AND provide slows and buffs."
The risk is fine. With skill, it was easy in EQ to maintain a charmed pet of the content we were fighting. Even more so in Pantheon since we apparently have a self-replenishing Rune which is a God-send for those who prefer to use charm in exp groups. The damage unhasted was about 50-70% of a DPS class in EQ. It may be the same in Pantheon and when you factor in that plus Spell Hastes, Melee Haste and nukes, you end up being about on par with a DPS in that regard. The downside is that formula doesn't stack so you'll rarely see two Bards or Enchanters in a group. We don't know how Charm will work in Pantheon but currently, Dire Charm is one option, and by that point, you can haste and duel wield it which is a topic of another discussion. I'm in the camp where Charm should scale your pet back a good portion in capacity due to how overpowered it can be, especially when permanently charmed.
Something to also mention. If it works as I think, since Shock & Awe isn't controlled, you could charm one mob and Shock & Awe the other where you now have two mobs attacking that primary mob your tank is on. There are some intresting ways to go about this that could prove beneficial, especially when one is Dire Charmed.
"Not to mention you are not relying on 2 mana pools (cleric and chanter) as opposed to 1 (cleric) since cannibalize gives shaman unlimited mana."
Shamans in Pantheon do not have Cannibalize. Enchanters do have Clarity and a mana drain that works on every mob type that replenishes about 20% of their mana every 2 minutes. Then you factor in nukes which give mana to the group including negating a portion of that nuke cost. With the bag of tricks listed above, Clerics won't be having mana issues if they and the Enchanter aren't new or unskilled.
"The only way you would be able to fit an enchanter into a group and compete with what I've mentioned would be if you went Clr, War, Enc, Nec, Nec, Wiz."
That can work as well but as stated above, a melee breakdown works as well. FYI, there's no Necro yet, so replace that Necro with a Summoner.
"And you would need to engage mobs that allowed the necros to mind wrack, since it would be a 600 mana gain for everyone and the necros would break even. You would also need to fight mobs that are susceptible to both poison and fire so that the necros can dot and nuke to their hearts content."
Again, this is Everquest your referring to, not Pantheon. We're delving a bit off topic.
"The downfall in this group is that you have no puller. (And even if the enchanter pulls it's still not as efficient)"
This is what Pacify is for, although other classes have one, not only Enchanter. Also, in exp groups, it's better for exp if you pull multiples which you then lock down and take one at a time for a few reasons. One, you can charm one to aid in the speed in which you kill, and two, you don't have a puller constantly out competing with other pullers in the zone or getting mobs split which takes time and end up losing that puller as DPS for most of the fight. When parsed over 7 years, the multiple pull method gave much more experience in a given period over the course of hundreds of groups. For this reason, a blind idiot can pull with a competent Enchanter and the content would be handled appropriately. That's one of the sole benefits of the Archetype.
"...and you have no bard (for spell damage and regen song for the necros)."
No Bard or Necro are in Pantheon yet and we don't know if Bards have a mana song or how their mechanics will work. That and we don't know how a Necro will work. They may not have those abilities and they may not stack. It's also using a singular class to make a point of which you'd see a marginal change in terms of performance.
"If you drop the wizard for a bard. you dont have enough dps to compete. And you also lack a secondary healer, but the extra mana the necros provide allow the chanter to rune liberally which can assist in a pinch."
I think we've devolved a bit off the topic into minutia and we're using Everquest a bit too much here with classes that don't exist yet or abilities which aren't in Pantheon.
"Theres just nothing as efficient as my group makeup. Trust me I've tried them all lol, and if I havent. I've directly competed against them."
I know you believe it to be the case, but you're using Everquest, classes not yet in and with mechanics we don't know about and spells which don't exist to prove some group potential which I agree, much like most all group compositions, will work, but to claim it's the best or covers all ground or has the highest DPS is an assumption to such a level, it's almost unbelieveable.
Ezrael said:We've already seen mobs with multiple AoEs and mobs with vicious AoEs. These could be frequent or damaging enough to either burn all your healer's mana on group heals or to reduce your party DPS so much that the healer goes OOM.
Rogue CC is a clutch extra option. It is not something I would rely on and build a 'meta party' around at all. It uses a different mechanic and resistance check and is likely harder to lower the resistance check on enemies in the same way that mesmerise can be for Enchanters.
Melee DPS only - creates a very restricted group that I don't see working well across such a variety of content.
Auto-attacks making up the majority of damage in MMOs? In What since EQ1?
All the last MMOs I've played had actual abilities make up the vast majority of damage: GW2, Rift, Aion, Vanguard, EQ2.
Melee auto attack damage is minor supplemental damage between ability usage in all of these games.
You seem to be looking at everything through EQ tinted glasses, your theory crafting is archaic and based upon metrics that we just haven't seen any evidence of in either the design documents and tenents or the actual stream footage.
What are you even talking about. We've literally seen 2 mobs iirc that aoe. And you just listed every mmo that has failed in the last 10 years. But were supposed to assume that the game is not going to be different from those? Everyone here knows that game is based off of EQ and will most likely closely resemble it once completed. From the streams we've already seen the combat is much slower (similar to eq).
In regards to Rog CC you're just making baseless assumptions. In the streams we have seen the rogue CC have a high success rate. The meta party isnt built around Rog CC. Its built around melee dps being high and consistent with no downtime. The CC is there for the initial camp break and for emergencies.
Noone will know what is correct until the game launches but I would bet money on my group over any other group given the information we've seen so far.
Janus said:Alot of stuff
I'm only basing my assumptions on the game that pantheon is heavily based upon.
You obviously have a love for the enchanter. I myself just feel they are overrated. Thats where we differ. We wont know what the meta will end up being until the game is released. So we will just have to wait and see.
1) Dire Lord (Tank, Spell Mitigation, DPS)
2) Shaman (Utility[Buffs/Debuffs/Rez], Healing, DPS)
3) Monk (Pulling, DPS, Offtank)
4) Cleric (Healing, Buffs, Utility[Pacify/Rez])
5) Bard (CC, Utility[Buffs/Debuffs], DPS) - "Just to kind of make the soft announcement, it is something that I feel confident from my perspective - that we'll be able to have the bard in by launch." -- Joppa
6) Summoner (Utility[Summoned Items, Pet abilities, etc], DPS)
Summoner could be swapped for Rogue if the utility is not needed and only pure DPS is required. This group is based off a dungeon crawling / Gates of Discord trial-style situation. If just doing a mundane camp grind, then it really comes down to min/max dps numbers.
@Janus
I wouldn't take those polls too seriously. Every MMO I've ever played, including EQ, had an abundance of DPS. I would be shocked if Pantheon wasn't the same.
I full expect the majority of groups to be Tank, Healer, CC/Support, 3 X DPS. This would create the most effecient means of leveling since killing faster allows for faster EXP. Mana regen and haste are probably going to be the factors that make the Enchanter the primary Support class with possible Shaman or Bard, if at launch, back ups. This is assuming the Shaman can't main heal. The streams have mainly been people who haven't played Pantheon let alone those classes. This is probably why we've seen some of the make ups on the streams, plus I think they're trying to show off certain classes that are probably more fleshed out. I would like to see a group of people who have been in the PA awhile on a stream so we could see what an actual effecient grouping session could look like.
Based on shortages you'll see other group make ups develop. If classes get port or evac some locations are going to require them to be in the group so you can get out safely. 3 X Melee DPS will probably be the most effecient group as they would likely have the least amount of down time since mana shouldn't be a concern.
**Edit just saw this post was necro'd. Anyways I stand by my request, it would be nice to see some people in PA on stream to see what its like watching someone familiar with their classes play.
