I think many people are falling victim to a line of thinking that is pervasive among today's MMO players, that this type of min maxing of party members is anywhere near a necessity.
If Pantheon is much like EQ, if you need more party members, most of the time it will simply be better to have anyone, any class. If your group is 5 clerics and you've got room for another player and the only available toon is another cleric, you take them happily and are better for it.
This "meta" line of thinking doesn't manifest itself in the real game world as often as people say. Of course there are moments when you need to meet specific thresholds for damage mitigation, healing, crowd control and damage. The rest of the time just go have fun.
There is no perfect group for THE GAME. There might be a preferred setup for certain encounters, but for the vast majority of content I'd bet that groups will be able to play to their strengths.
We are OBSESSED with this idea of the 1/1/1/3 party setup and I think it needs to be thrown right out the window.
Keno Monster said:I think many people are falling victim to a line of thinking that is pervasive among today's MMO players, that this type of min maxing of party members is anywhere near a necessity. If Pantheon is much like EQ, if you need more party members, most of the time it will simply be better to have anyone, any class. If your group is 5 clerics and you've got room for another player and the only available toon is another cleric, you take them happily and are better for it. This "meta" line of thinking doesn't manifest itself in the real game world as often as people say. Of course there are moments when you need to meet specific thresholds for damage mitigation, healing, crowd control and damage. The rest of the time just go have fun. There is no perfect group for THE GAME. There might be a preferred setup for certain encounters, but for the vast majority of content I'd bet that groups will be able to play to their strengths. We are OBSESSED with this idea of the 1/1/1/3 party setup and I think it needs to be thrown right out the window.
To that point, some of my favorite parties have been ones far from "ideal". These groups make for some very interesting and interactive play sessions, especially once the "meta" has been established. With that said, I still lie awake at night and try to imagine the perfect party as a thought experiment. Its much like counting sheep /shrug.
Keno Monster said:I think many people are falling victim to a line of thinking that is pervasive among today's MMO players, that this type of min maxing of party members is anywhere near a necessity.
...
There is no perfect group for THE GAME. There might be a preferred setup for certain encounters, but for the vast majority of content I'd bet that groups will be able to play to their strengths.
We are OBSESSED with this idea of the 1/1/1/3 party setup and I think it needs to be thrown right out the window.
IKR? No Rangers or Dire Lord mentioned. Hardly a mention of Bards. Not even the Necro is considered despite it's likelihood of not being in on release. But it is nice to see some Summoner's mentioned.
I'd say there are too many variables to determine a best group make-up for the game. Group composition is one thing. Ideal group composition for one given scenario is another. Player proficiencey for a specific class yet another. Etc, etc.
I'm most likely running with a regular group composed of:
DIRE, SHM, DRU, SUM, MNK, ENC (or BRD)*
Druid on dps with aux heals stacking Reverberation passive, Dire tanking with the benefit of shm hots and druid VSeed, monk pulling and off tanking, cc doing cc and mana buffs, shm debuffs and heals, summoner dpsing plus pet dps.
Will it be optimal for all group content? Nope. Will we be able to function thru most group content? Yup. Most importantly are we aware it's not optimal and we will have fun trying different approaches to some encounters? Heck yeah!
MauvaisOeil said:I don't really think the rogue has a better DPS overtime than other melee for now.
I will be very surprised if that ^ ends up being true.
I think many of us assume they will top the dps charts similar to eq. At least rogue dps is position based. Monks are already so powerful because of fd and ranger being able to do constant high damage with no downtime from range is OP. That only leaves rogues.
It's interesting from the class spell/ability descriptions that there are some inbuilt synergies with what look debuffs for certain dmg types, e.g fire/physical from a given class that work well with class b which have strong damage types of the corresponding type. I'm sure this will really help drive group diversity and some "strong pairings" i.e if you've got a druid that's not just healing then a summoner works well (for example). Honestly i think some of the most enjoyable times had in both EQ1, and vanilla wow (5man stratholme) were with "ghetto" groups where you were missing cc and had to root park mobs whilst burning down one. (Cleric main) dealing with the panic that ensued when root invariably broke on two adds at the same time was heart pumping, but very doable with an aware team. Similarly to being deep in chardok holding down multiple camps when you realise you're getting a full room respawn whilst you already have 3 mobs mezzed ^^. I'm looking forward to a SHD, SHM, SUM, MNK, WIZ, Ench/Bard group - bursty and fast room breaks, great for crawling around exploring, possible just swap the mnk out for a cleric for a more exciting time.
Porygon said: Rogues being a pure dps class are usually going to rank at the top in regards to maximum possible dps. Rogues also have utility when it comes to crowd control.
Philo said: The high melee dps (with little to no down time compared to mana classes) and all of the other abilities rogues bring to the table will likely make them choice #1 in the dps role ... minimal CC abilities as mentioned, combined with max or close to max dps makes rogues a no brainer to fill the dps slots.
This was actually discussed in one of the previous threads we had on this subject, and I wanted to point out something for those who think that because Rogues can CC, this makes them the best DPS (especially in Porygon's group makeup with no Enchanter) for a group.
In Early Monk Gameplay (40:26) with CohhCarnage, Joppa clarifies something about the Rogue CC ability.
Joppa said: "The Smoke and Mirriors that he is using there, the Endurance cost is so high that for the Rogue to be able to maintain that he has to completely stop all of his DPS'ing activities."
Kilsin said: "It's pretty much minimal. Obviously the rogue is a DPS class and that's what we are best known for. We will have a little bit of Utility on the side for like for an emergancy kind of CC or something, and as you said it's about 3/4's of my Endruance for 1 use and it only lasts for 30 seconds and can fail and it has a few times."
Of note: in the Rogue Reveal that came much later after this video was made, this ability is listed as lasting only 24 seconds, so it's been tweeked to be even less effective. Since it's cost is so high... if it fails or is broken by accident, the Rogue can't just re-apply immediately. And he needs to pretty much stop his DPS in order to save Endurance to do so.
When you watch the Rogue stream with CohhCarnage back in March 2018, it looks like he gains about 10% of his Endurance per second. So 75% of his bar is about 7.5 seconds. So a failed CC could mean 7.5 seconds of a mob running free. And then even more time of the Rogue doing no DPS abilities on the Main target while he waits on his Endurance to fill again. No to mention the Rogue then doing no DPS for 7.5 seconds just before the CC drops (at the 24 second mark) so he can re-apply when it breaks free. The rogue will likely only get about 10 seconds of DPS in for every 25 second period if he is the main CC'er for the group.
Now I won't argue against Rogue's high DPS... but I think that some of you are assuming that because Rogues can CC, they can be used to replace the Enchanter (or Bard) in the group, and have your CC cake and make the mob Eat DPS too. Which isn't likely to be the case.
I do think Rogues are great and will always love them in my groups. But I don't think they should just be considered 'Best DPS' and be the default in every group and all other DPSers are used only if you can't find another Rogue.
@Philo
Rogue is position based for one and only one ability, Ranger has to ebb and flow between range and melee which can be dangerous in tight spots, or force him to jump away facing the front of the ennemy, monk is... well, monk.
In no game since EQ, positionnal classes dealt more damage than non positionnal. The positionnal factor is just a flavour of the class, for example the monk Chakra system is a bit more complex than the rogue energy regen and that's a flavour too, just like the jump in and out of the ranger. Everyone has constraint of some sort, and monk / ranger have dynamic filling bars where the rogue's fill even if he doesn't attack, allowing him to pool ressource while he has to jump out of melee.
Different flavour, different constraint to different classes filling the same role : I'd say they are meant to perform equally in most fights, with every DPS shining in specific encounters but not to the point it would be utterly broken.
@Porygon
Goofy is correct as was said by Joppa.
"Joppa said: "The Smoke and Mirriors that he is using there, the Endurance cost is so high that for the Rogue to be able to maintain that he has to completely stop all of his DPS'ing activities."
Effectively you have one class that can CC multiples easily while maintaining DPS through hastes as well as Charm/Shock and Awe which together should operate as much DPS if not more than a DPS class, not to mention slows, stuns, mana regeneration etc. The archetype exists for a vital reason.
Having the Support/Control slot filled with a DPS is fine, but you become less efficient and make more challenging content more tricky. It's similar to saying you want a Monk to tank, a Pally to heal or a Cleric to DPS. There are class roles for a reason and a quatrinity for a reason much like other games have a trinity.
You have to go by the mechanics and the numbers and not just hopes and wishes or end up looking foolish. With that said, any number of cominbations are possible as group structure allows for less rigid group composition but that composition determines capability and efficiency.
Janus said:@Porygon
Goofy is correct as was said by Joppa.
"Joppa said: "The Smoke and Mirriors that he is using there, the Endurance cost is so high that for the Rogue to be able to maintain that he has to completely stop all of his DPS'ing activities."
Effectively you have one class that can CC multiples easily while maintaining DPS through hastes as well as Charm/Shock and Awe which together should operate as much DPS if not more than a DPS class, not to mention slows, stuns, mana regeneration etc. The archetype exists for a vital reason.
Having the Support/Control slot filled with a DPS is fine, but you become less efficient and make more challenging content more tricky. It's similar to saying you want a Monk to tank, a Pally to heal or a Cleric to DPS. There are class roles for a reason and a quatrinity for a reason much like other games have a trinity.
You have to go by the mechanics and the numbers and not just hopes and wishes or end up looking foolish. With that said, any number of cominbations are possible as group structure allows for less rigid group composition but that composition determines capability and efficiency.
To me it seems fair if the control archetype bring good damages but less than a full DPS, however it brings control over the fight, mana for every mana user, which should translate into efficiency overall.
@MauvaisOeil
Typically the Support/Control will out-dps an actual DPS but with a caveat. DPS stack 100% whereas a class that depends on buffs for their passive DPS do not. Hastes and the Mana regen buffs can be removed from a second Enchanter for instance (Unsure how Bard will work). For this reason a rudimentary model works like this.
Group Example 1
Tank = 40% DPS
Healer = 10% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
Total = 450%
Group Example 2
Tank = 40% DPS
Healer - 10% DPS
Support/CC = 125% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
Total = 475%
Group Example 3
Tank = 40% DPS
Healer = 10% DPS
Support/CC = 125% DPS
Support/CC = 50% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
DPS = 100% DPS
Total = 425%
Group 1 is less damage than group 2 but group 1 and 2 is stronger than group 3. Support/Control do not stack well and while that may be determined on how easily Charm is used or how strong it is, the point should still stand. I feel a group with more than one Support/Control is less likely than a group without one but ultimately, a group will want one above a single DPS if they had to choose for that Support/Control slot.
The other aspect to pay attention to is that when a group is smaller, the Support/Control provides less passive DPS since you have fewer people in group benefiting from the Melee/Spell hastes, Damage Add, Mana Regen Buff and Mana Replenishment Nuke. In this sense, a DPS is singularly more DPS than than the Support/Control in your groups of 2-3.
All in all, the entire process is very nuanced but I agree you your earlier point in that they should do less damage but also provide assistance through damage mitigation through slows and also Mana Regen which applies to the healer.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Porygon said: Rogues being a pure dps class are usually going to rank at the top in regards to maximum possible dps. Rogues also have utility when it comes to crowd control.
Philo said: The high melee dps (with little to no down time compared to mana classes) and all of the other abilities rogues bring to the table will likely make them choice #1 in the dps role ... minimal CC abilities as mentioned, combined with max or close to max dps makes rogues a no brainer to fill the dps slots.
This was actually discussed in one of the previous threads we had on this subject, and I wanted to point out something for those who think that because Rogues can CC, this makes them the best DPS (especially in Porygon's group makeup with no Enchanter) for a group.
In Early Monk Gameplay (40:26) with CohhCarnage, Joppa clarifies something about the Rogue CC ability.
Joppa said: "The Smoke and Mirriors that he is using there, the Endurance cost is so high that for the Rogue to be able to maintain that he has to completely stop all of his DPS'ing activities."
Kilsin said: "It's pretty much minimal. Obviously the rogue is a DPS class and that's what we are best known for. We will have a little bit of Utility on the side for like for an emergancy kind of CC or something, and as you said it's about 3/4's of my Endruance for 1 use and it only lasts for 30 seconds and can fail and it has a few times."
Of note: in the Rogue Reveal that came much later after this video was made, this ability is listed as lasting only 24 seconds, so it's been tweeked to be even less effective. Since it's cost is so high... if it fails or is broken by accident, the Rogue can't just re-apply immediately. And he needs to pretty much stop his DPS in order to save Endurance to do so.
When you watch the Rogue stream with CohhCarnage back in March 2018, it looks like he gains about 10% of his Endurance per second. So 75% of his bar is about 7.5 seconds. So a failed CC could mean 7.5 seconds of a mob running free. And then even more time of the Rogue doing no DPS abilities on the Main target while he waits on his Endurance to fill again. No to mention the Rogue then doing no DPS for 7.5 seconds just before the CC drops (at the 24 second mark) so he can re-apply when it breaks free. The rogue will likely only get about 10 seconds of DPS in for every 25 second period if he is the main CC'er for the group.
Now I won't argue against Rogue's high DPS... but I think that some of you are assuming that because Rogues can CC, they can be used to replace the Enchanter (or Bard) in the group, and have your CC cake and make the mob Eat DPS too. Which isn't likely to be the case.
I do think Rogues are great and will always love them in my groups. But I don't think they should just be considered 'Best DPS' and be the default in every group and all other DPSers are used only if you can't find another Rogue.
I don't think anyone was expecting rogues to CC much in this discussion. To think that was the reason that 3 rogues was recommended is a misunderstanding.
Most groups would consider killing faster, consistently, to be better for a number of reasons. I did mention that sometimes you might want to replace the shaman or cleric with an enchanter...but that doesn't change the dps slots.
When CC was mentioned in relation to rogues I used the word "minimal" (which will be similar with most classes) and you quoted Porg as saying "have utility when it comes to crowd control". I take that to be no more than a standard root or stun.
If anything, with the removal of those early CC abilities that we saw on the rogue that opens up the rogue class to have its damage increased and still be balanced.
I think ranged dps will be highly sought after, we've seen a few of the bosses so far have incredibly high aoe damage that can be avoided simply by being at range, if you have 3 rogues in a party your healer is going to need to expend a lot of mana to keep up if they can even keep up.
I'd like this as a party:-
Cleric, Warrior, Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard and Wizard.
Summoner:-
Summoner for general damage dealing while maintain a safe distance from the monsters, they can also use Summon Behemoth for the enchanter to Charm. Their pet can act as an off-tank in a situation where a monster may need two tanks.
Enchanter:-
Dire charm with the summoner, along with Mesmerize for long duration control over multi-pal monsters on top of there general control they have Rend the Mind giving the group more Mana to play with, as the group has many mana users this will have added value.
Wizards:-
with their spell weaving I believe there mana issues will be much reduced, being able to call upon Arcane spells to replenish mana while firing fire spells to cause damage, once the stance dancing is learned I feel they wont have huge down time, but will be capable of pushing out high burst damage in fights that may have enrage timers or burn phases by stacking fire spells.
Cleric:-
I went with the cleric over the other healers because the cleric has access to a wider range of emergency skills such as Reckon's Shield and Reithal's Luminous Shield. Any of the three healers would work with this combination but I feel the shaman would be the worst selection for this group make up, simply because most of the healing from Hand of Aivelu will go to waste, this is not to say shaman wont work but the AOE healing will not be needed as much in this group set up due to being focused around maintaining range.
Warrior:-
I went with the Warrior because it offers a more traditional tanking set up that works well with enchanters locking down most of the targets. Skills like The Will to Live help in emergency's but all tanks come with some form of emergency skill. I believe any tank would work in this set up.
I mentioned the two heals being needed after watching all of the streams. They seem to always be fighting blues (to make things go faster) with a mix of a few higher cons in each stream.
It looks to me like 2 tank and 2 heals are needed most of the time. I am sure that wouldn't be true if a group was just grinding blues outside or near a zone line etc where danger would be low.
The streams made me rethink my class choice. I wanted to be Cleric, but they seem to struggle with weak heals and high agro.
The Fion (sp?) fight would be impossible without a perfect group. Hope tuning phases can iron out imbalances.
i still plan to try all healing classes. we'll see..
I like the holy trinity / quadrinity quite a bit, but I prefer if it's more of a "best practice" for teaming and not a defacto requirement. If it's made too important, it will lead to longer LFG time, more min/maxing, and more pressure for many to not play the classes they want.
Playing in sub-optimal configurationa can be a fun challenge and it helps keep the game fresh since the team has to adapt. And if we end up with achievement badges, it could be fun to have some for things like 'You defeated ScaryBoss without a tank' or 'You defeated ScaryBoss with only Summoners'.
You know you've found the right balance when groups try to fill specific roles, but are still willing to not be 1:1:1:3 and would rather start an adventure shorthanded than wait 30 minutes to find someone.
I also suspect that, like in every other MMO I've played, there will be an oversupply of DPS. I don't trust forum polls since a lot of your more casual players aren't on the forums and they tend to skew DPS.
Interesting to see what roles would be needed in different scenarios and environments.
To assume players wont min max in this game is silly.
If you're crawling through a dungeon you may need to swap a rogue for a monk assuming that monks can pull effectively without too much wasted time. If you're at a static camp, you only need temporary CC to break the various groups before you're able to consistently pull singles.
So dungeon crawling = War, Clr, Shm, Rog, Rog, Mnk
Static camp = War, Clr, Shm, Rog x3
The purpose of the rogue isnt to provide nonstop CC. The CC is only needed until the camp is broken, so killing "maybe" slightly slower to break the camp in order to allow you to kill faster.
Assuming the game is balanced properly you most likely would never see an all caster group serve as the best group given that downtime for mana regen will take place.
Bards are not mentioned because we have no idea what their abilities will be. If they are able to do the things that eq bards can, then you would absolutely want one in the group. We just dont know.
And the rationale for rogues being top dps is they are the only pure melee that are positional. Rangers can ranged and monks can off tank. If your top melee dps is a rangers attacker that's extremely imbalanced. Same with your top melee being able to off tank.
It's the same with the casters. Mages receive pets. And enchanters can CC. Wizards will be the top caster dps because they are purely a caster dps class.
Flapp said:The Fion (sp?) fight would be impossible without a perfect group. Hope tuning phases can iron out imbalances.
None of the players in any of the streams have been very good at all. To base your understanding of how challenging content is from watching mediocre players do it is silly.
It would be like throwing 25 average WoW players against a mythic level raid mob. The fight would seem impossible.
Porygon said:To assume players wont min max in this game is silly.
If you're crawling through a dungeon you may need to swap a rogue for a monk assuming that monks can pull effectively without too much wasted time. If you're at a static camp, you only need temporary CC to break the various groups before you're able to consistently pull singles.
So dungeon crawling = War, Clr, Shm, Rog, Rog, Mnk
Static camp = War, Clr, Shm, Rog x3
The purpose of the rogue isnt to provide nonstop CC. The CC is only needed until the camp is broken, so killing "maybe" slightly slower to break the camp in order to allow you to kill faster.
Assuming the game is balanced properly you most likely would never see an all caster group serve as the best group given that downtime for mana regen will take place.
Bards are not mentioned because we have no idea what their abilities will be. If they are able to do the things that eq bards can, then you would absolutely want one in the group. We just dont know.
And the rationale for rogues being top dps is they are the only pure melee that are positional. Rangers can ranged and monks can off tank. If your top melee dps is a rangers attacker that's extremely imbalanced. Same with your top melee being able to off tank.
It's the same with the casters. Mages receive pets. And enchanters can CC. Wizards will be the top caster dps because they are purely a caster dps class.
That would mean the rogue would outdps the wizard because he is melee and positionnal. And that every melee class would simply have to be better, despite having no downtime or long term ressource to manage.
I mean, thoses game designs are 20 years old and it only culminated in making player stack rogues over anything else, which is exactly what people are doing in this thread.
Precisely why I think they won't do that same error, they want class diversity, homogeneity, and attractivity : Every DPS will perform close to each other, and rogues have some downside (melee and one positionnal ability) and some edges (invisibility, poolable short term non battle engaged dependant ressource, situationnal crowd control), just like every other melee, or even class overall.
Its not about the rogue out dps'n the wizard. We are making the assumption that the rogue will be the highest melee dps. Melee having the large benefit of having much less down time than a mana user. They are consistent high dmg. The consistency part is the most important in your standard exp group where down time kills your efficiency.
I don't see how they could balance it so that the ranger or monk do the same dmg as a rogue for reasons I already mentioned in this thread...but we will see.