Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Breaking a Camp

    • 411 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:27 AM PDT

    Those who are familiar with set spawn times on each individual mob may know about breaking camps. This is when you have an area or room filled with enemies and you kill them all. Assuming they weren't killed exactly simultaneously, they will respawn individually as their respawn timers end. They can then be killed individually, further separating their respawn timers. If done correctly you can get single pulls indefinitely. To summarize the characteristics of this style of play:

    1) It requires planning around respawn timers. This can use timers to be really exact, but going by feel is a skill that people can get better at over time and is the common approach.
    2) It has frontloaded difficulty. The first pulls will either require splitting (feign death, lull, etc.) or pulling the whole pack, but everything afterwards will have reduced difficulty if correctly single pulled.
    3) It encourages uninterrupted play. Allowing entire packs or rooms to respawn will return their frontloaded difficulty.
    4) It is relatively efficient. A consequence of the reduced difficulty is that grinding this way is efficient, so it is the preferable approach when possible.

    The only other option that I'm aware of is the shared respawn timer. Killing any mob within a pack starts the pack's timer (X minutes) and the whole pack respawns after X minutes. Each mob can still only be killed once every X minutes (as with individual timers), but they must be split up using abilities or killed as a group.

    If you have participated in EQ-style camp breaking, do you like it? If you haven't, do you think it sounds like a good thing?

    • 646 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:43 AM PDT

    I have never participated in EQ-style camp breaking. However, I have engaged in farming for a rare drop in an area in other MMOs, which mechanically would be a similar task, even if the end goal is different. I personally think sitting in one place and continuously killing mobs that respawn sounds really boring.

    • 35 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:48 AM PDT

    I experienced this in EQ and my vote is against set spawn timers as the long grinds sitting in one location wears on you. I would much rather be pushed through a dungeon environment where if you do not keep moving and killing you eventually get overwelmed because mobs are on random timers. I also like one way in one way out zones that force you to progress through and area to get out. Favorite zone of all time in any game Veeshan's Peak. The best progress or die zone ever created

    • 793 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:51 AM PDT

     

    In General, I think respawn timers should be random on a time range. Like instead of a mob's respawn being 6 mins, it should be anywhere between 4-8 minutes, this would make such breaking a little more difficult, a little more exciting, and sometimes surprising. It could also make maintaining the camp a little more work.

     

     

    • 36 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:51 AM PDT

    I did it on occation in EQ. I remember even doing it in Lesser Faydark to break up the camp of 3 bandits so I could solo them for exp. Another time in a duo with a friend we did this in Karana so we could effectively farm exp with just the 2 of us without an overly high risk of dying.

    My opinion is that allowing this is perfectlu acceptable. Some (like Naunet) may find it boring and in that case they can get in a group that kills entire packs at once and then moves if a different pack. Or some other form of exp gain they find enjoyable. But I think the more forms of gameplay that exist, the more ways people will find to be entertained. Unless something is game breaking I see no reason to artifically prevent it. And I don't see camp breaking as breaking the game, just another option in the way you might choose to play.

    • 793 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:56 AM PDT

    Firewalker said:

    I did it on occation in EQ. I remember even doing it in Lesser Faydark to break up the camp of 3 bandits so I could solo them for exp. Another time in a duo with a friend we did this in Karana so we could effectively farm exp with just the 2 of us without an overly high risk of dying.

    My opinion is that allowing this is perfectlu acceptable. Some (like Naunet) may find it boring and in that case they can get in a group that kills entire packs at once and then moves if a different pack. Or some other form of exp gain they find enjoyable. But I think the more forms of gameplay that exist, the more ways people will find to be entertained. Unless something is game breaking I see no reason to artifically prevent it. And I don't see camp breaking as breaking the game, just another option in the way you might choose to play.

     

    Yes, it was those "boring" camps that really gave us all time to socialize and really connect. Creating long lasting friendships.

    • 696 posts
    September 20, 2018 12:02 PM PDT

    I played EQ for awhile, and the initial break in is always the most dangerous. Some spots you can navigate with invis, but some pulls are insanely nasty if gone wrong. Bar Keeper in Unrest was a very nast pull if done wrong, also basement named Ghost had a good chance of pulling the pit with him that would also cause many wipes. The raid zones in Velious were also pretty intense when breaking in as a group to farm for some trash drops.

    I would say I liked setting up camps. Gives you an apperciation for the zone, and most mobs add a lot of value in terms of exp and potiental gem drops. Most MMO's are hack n slash that go through the dungeon and then forget about it. In EQ, you really had to take in your surroundings when pulling and understanding the layout of the dungeon to a much greater degree than most mmos. Some groups would have timers for harder pulls so your puller doesn't get destroyed in the process of pulling just to have other adds spawn on him when he is pulling. I also liked setting up camps because it brings in a whole new strategic element that other MMOs don't really have. Especially since mobs will chase you until you zone or kill them, it brought way more dangerous situations when trains happened while you were pretty deep into your dungeons.

    I view camping is the same as instance farming in other MMOs. Instance MMOs you just run through the same dungeon over and over again until you get that piece, but establishing camps pretty much is the same except you don't have to redo the instance over and over and it's more about controlling your area that you establish while not screwing up a pull and have a badly times pull when mobs respawn.


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 20, 2018 12:18 PM PDT
    • 198 posts
    September 20, 2018 12:10 PM PDT

    Ainadak said:

    Those who are familiar with set spawn times on each individual mob may know about breaking camps. This is when you have an area or room filled with enemies and you kill them all. Assuming they weren't killed exactly simultaneously, they will respawn individually as their respawn timers end. They can then be killed individually, further separating their respawn timers. If done correctly you can get single pulls indefinitely. To summarize the characteristics of this style of play:

    1) It requires planning around respawn timers. This can use timers to be really exact, but going by feel is a skill that people can get better at over time and is the common approach.
    2) It has frontloaded difficulty. The first pulls will either require splitting (feign death, lull, etc.) or pulling the whole pack, but everything afterwards will have reduced difficulty if correctly single pulled.
    3) It encourages uninterrupted play. Allowing entire packs or rooms to respawn will return their frontloaded difficulty.
    4) It is relatively efficient. A consequence of the reduced difficulty is that grinding this way is efficient, so it is the preferable approach when possible.

    The only other option that I'm aware of is the shared respawn timer. Killing any mob within a pack starts the pack's timer (X minutes) and the whole pack respawns after X minutes. Each mob can still only be killed once every X minutes (as with individual timers), but they must be split up using abilities or killed as a group.

    If you have participated in EQ-style camp breaking, do you like it? If you haven't, do you think it sounds like a good thing?

     

    Yes, I pretty much expect some camping based on what we've seen so far.  What I would like is some random boss spawn locations (possibly roamers too) to help spread the wealth around a bit.

    • 36 posts
    September 20, 2018 12:11 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Yes, it was those "boring" camps that really gave us all time to socialize and really connect. Creating long lasting friendships.

    The time in Karana I mentioned, that was with someone I met in game (back in 1999) and due to gameplay and time to socialize we are still friends to this day and talk periodically. He even flew in to town a few years ago for the weding of a mutual friend that lives near me. He and I are both looking forward to Pantheon so we can have fun together in a game like this is targeting.

    • 945 posts
    September 20, 2018 12:24 PM PDT

    Since the game is going to be primarily open world "camping" will be an absolute necessity as opposed to trying to be continuously pushing your way through an entire dungeon.  You will likely need to fight your way to some camps, but once "camp" has been established I think most people will find that sitting at a camp is a more enjoyable time than grinding through a dungeon.  If you are the type of person that needs to constantly be on the move, may I suggest playing one of the melee DPS roles (or maybe Bard) and designate yourself as a "puller".  I know some days I feel like being on the move, and other days I am content with holding a camp and chatting.  Pulling usually doesnt allow you time to relax when everyone else gets to chitchat and frolick while you're trying to time pathing and avoid overpulling. ;p


    This post was edited by Darch at September 20, 2018 12:24 PM PDT
    • 303 posts
    September 20, 2018 1:29 PM PDT

    I think its fun but I'm known to enjoy mindless grinding

    • 1120 posts
    September 20, 2018 1:32 PM PDT

    I would prefer All mobs in the game to have variable spawn timers.  This creates an added level of difficulty and excitement in static spawn camping.  Maybe a max variance of 25% + or -.

    Static spawn camping with set timers is too easy.   I used to take naps in between the spawns at frenzied camps so I could last longer!


    This post was edited by Porygon at September 20, 2018 1:33 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    September 20, 2018 1:39 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    In General, I think respawn timers should be random on a time range. Like instead of a mob's respawn being 6 mins, it should be anywhere between 4-8 minutes, this would make such breaking a little more difficult, a little more exciting, and sometimes surprising. It could also make maintaining the camp a little more work.

    I agree completely.  All timers should have some degree of randomness applied, the value of the randomness should be noticable. In addition, respawn timers should not be global in the sense they apply to all group-level content everywhere.  Some mobs/zones can have faster respawns (definitely for newbie zones which should spawn very quickly) while other zones or certain NPCs can have longer timers. The random variable should also differ, shorter here, longer there.

    Having an absolutely predictable spawn timer (which will be quickly identified then widely known) serves to make only the initial break challenging.  Everything that comes after is simple...and simple means boring. I like having to be prepared for the unexpected (and even the unwelcomed).

    • 1785 posts
    September 20, 2018 2:02 PM PDT

    I agree that respawn timers should have some randomness to them to keep things from getting too easy after the initial break.

    However, I think we should consider the consequences of what we're asking for as well before we get too aggressive on making respawn times very short or very long.

    If the primary way to earn experience is to kill enemies, then players will seek the most efficient way to do that.

    If that method is camping, dungeons and outdoor areas will be able to support as many players as the respawn rate and mob density will allow (note:  I'm not taking loot incentives into account here which may make some camps more desirable than others.)

    If that method is "crawling", where players keep moving to get more kills in, then players will come into conflict over available mobs more frequently, and dungeons especially will need to be designed with multiple pathways for players to go deeper into them.

    Personally I love crawling a dungeon far more than camping.  But I hate getting to a point in that where everything ahead of me is dead because we caught up with some other group.  Conversely, I also hate getting to an interesting room that might have a named mob or something and setting up camp only to have more groups keep showing up because their own crawls led them to the same place.

    Just some stuff we should think about if we're talking about respawns and density.


    This post was edited by Nephele at September 20, 2018 2:03 PM PDT
    • 643 posts
    September 20, 2018 2:24 PM PDT

    I disagree with the sentiment against grinding.  You need a balance of both play styles.

     

    One thing my friends and I *LOVED* doing was finding a great locaiton in DSP or OT or WoS, setting up camp on a hill, and then pulling and chain pulling  for hours while we sat and socialized and had fun.  

    I personally hate killing and racing through a dungeon.

    So, no, it is not a universal truth that camps are boring or bad.

    As for spawn timers, I you can still break a camp with random spawns, it's just more risky and unpredictable.  I like some fixed spawn timers and some varying spawn timers.  EQ had both, but most of the trash mobs were 6 or 20 minutes.

    • 2752 posts
    September 20, 2018 4:19 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Personally I love crawling a dungeon far more than camping.  But I hate getting to a point in that where everything ahead of me is dead because we caught up with some other group.  Conversely, I also hate getting to an interesting room that might have a named mob or something and setting up camp only to have more groups keep showing up because their own crawls led them to the same place.

    Just some stuff we should think about if we're talking about respawns and density.

    Also, I don't think crawling would be terribly well supported in general given the far wider level range (in general) that Pantheon dungeons/zones are likely to have. You more than likely can't take your group and crawl through a dungeon to any kind of realistically satisfying end point, which would only further add to players/groups running into and over one another competing for whatever kills they can find as those that reach a point with higher level mobs have to turn around. 

    • 945 posts
    September 20, 2018 4:53 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Nephele said:

    Personally I love crawling a dungeon far more than camping.  But I hate getting to a point in that where everything ahead of me is dead because we caught up with some other group.  Conversely, I also hate getting to an interesting room that might have a named mob or something and setting up camp only to have more groups keep showing up because their own crawls led them to the same place.

    Just some stuff we should think about if we're talking about respawns and density.

    Also, I don't think crawling would be terribly well supported in general given the far wider level range (in general) that Pantheon dungeons/zones are likely to have. You more than likely can't take your group and crawl through a dungeon to any kind of realistically satisfying end point, which would only further add to players/groups running into and over one another competing for whatever kills they can find as those that reach a point with higher level mobs have to turn around. 

    This is exactly what I was referring to about 6 posts back.

    • 1714 posts
    September 20, 2018 6:25 PM PDT

    Camp breaking and maintaining was absolutely awesome in EQ and set great players apart from average ones. 

    • 58 posts
    September 20, 2018 9:51 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    I would prefer All mobs in the game to have variable spawn timers.  This creates an added level of difficulty and excitement in static spawn camping.  Maybe a max variance of 25% + or -.

    Static spawn camping with set timers is too easy.   I used to take naps in between the spawns at frenzied camps so I could last longer!

    Agreed, a random timer or variable timer would keep everyone on their toes.   Of course, my main was an enchanter in EQ, so "adds" are where some of the fun comes in.  

    As a related aside, I'd also prefer random or variable spawn locations.  Perhaps each mob might have several possible spawn points, not too far from each other, but far enough to keep it interesting.  

    • 42 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:18 PM PDT

    I think if they want us to crawl they will also need to make a lot of the loot / named mobs spawn location random. Downside to this is that clearing more monsters will in theory increase the chance to spawn said rare spawns / get more good loot. This opens up the risk of higher level players coming back and clearing large amounts of the lower level dungeons to “farm” those loots thus depriving groups of that level range area’s to clear.

    One of the things that made certain loot valuable was the rarity. If only one mob in the zone can drop that item, spawns ever 30 min, has Phers and can drop common, uncommon as well as the rare then you slow that items flow into the market.

    If they can figure out a system that will drain items / money out the economy well enough then this won’t be that big of an issue.

    • 1479 posts
    September 21, 2018 1:58 AM PDT

    I'm all inf or camp breaks, because it represents the topmost defense of any structured ennemy : All forces presents, all patrols roaming. It requires strategy, patience of a few tools to be done properly and it will promote individual skills and group synergy.

     

    However I'm also all in for non static timers. We shouldn't control reinforcement rate by mentally counting respawn timer. A roamer should remain a surprise, reinforcement should also, be surprising enough that it breaks the monotony of controlling everything.

     

    In the end, area camping should remain dangerous in the sense of "I can pull thoses mobs there but what the respawn is shortened and we end up overwhelmed ?", and not be a strictly controlled area. It's players versus environment and the environment should have rules and hazard to make it harder for players. EQ was great but many mechanics were simple and with modern tools, everything is way too much under control and knowledge of players.

    • 2138 posts
    September 21, 2018 2:27 PM PDT

    I like the idea of camps and the ideas of random spawn timers.

    I like dungeon crawling and intense forward moving groups, but sometimes I like semi-casual camp grinding. With random spawn timers it will keep the game play focused.

    • 239 posts
    September 22, 2018 10:40 AM PDT
    Many of lonely nights I would break a 2,3, or 4 spawn camp and just hunker down down for a chance at that one nice piece of gear for myself or buddy or a toon.
    So I may regret saying this. But I would like to see random spawn times, and random names spawn locations. Nothing drastic, maybe a few minutes. Named mobs can spawn in same general area of course, makes no sense for the jailer to spawn in the kitchen area.... unless he was on break looking for a ham sandwich.
    • 2138 posts
    September 22, 2018 10:06 PM PDT

    SoWplz said: Many of lonely nights I would break a 2,3, or 4 spawn camp and just hunker down down for a chance at that one nice piece of gear for myself or buddy or a toon. So I may regret saying this. But I would like to see random spawn times, and random names spawn locations. Nothing drastic, maybe a few minutes. Named mobs can spawn in same general area of course, makes no sense for the jailer to spawn in the kitchen area.... unless he was on break looking for a ham sandwich.

     

    and if the jailor DID spawn in the kitchen, it would be cool if he had a different loot table. Think that is possible? that a named can spawn randomely anywhere, but when they do spawn in a certain area their loot table changes? so like in the jail cells the jailor would have a nice set of lockpicks- or a nice  dagger that is called a "jailors lockpick" and if the jailor spawns in the kitchen it would have a "black rose boneless ham" which would be a nice hand to hand item (the hand is put through the hole where the bone used to be) or maybe a kitchen dishrag as a hand wrap.

    • 432 posts
    September 23, 2018 8:33 AM PDT

    This really depends on the difficulty of the mobs .

    In EQ this difficulty was large and increased when one was getting deeper in a high level dungeon . Going to deep Chardok or Howling Stones made necessary to break camps almost all the time because the mob groups met on the way were quite able to wipe out the whole group not even mentionning adding roamers . So the camp break tactics had to be applied in all cases and all the time regardless if one was going to set camp and grind or "dungeon crawl" . The option to pull everything simply didn't exist because this everything was designed to be powerfull enough to kill the group with a 90 % probability .

    Additionally the stress created by having to be concentrated all the time (especially for enchanters and healers) was so intense that people were generally happy to at last sit down somewhere, break the camp and enjoy a place where one could relax  without needing to permanently fear a horrible death due to a bad pull or 2 yellow adds .