Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

While reworking Skar, can we look at Paladins?

    • 29 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:35 AM PDT

    Wasn't an evil Paladin a Blackguard in 3.5 D&D? I remember playing one in Neverwinter Nights, complete with +4 Scythe.
    I am an old RPer and I am perfectly fine with restrictions as they make you get creative with your builds, or simply make you come back and play through again as something else. I completely oppose the "Ogre wizard/monk half-red dragon" creep that sets in once you begin caving in to demands for every permutation of possible character variation. I would much rather they focus on content, and less on race/class additions to placate a noisey few.

    • 2752 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:37 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Darchias said:

    Well, an important distinction is that Paladins are not just hybrid Clerics/Warriors: They are former clerics that devote the zeal they used to show their deity to a more mortal cause. The Dark Myr culture may revere those clerics to such a degree that Dark Myr Paladins are simply anamatha: No Cleric would dream of leaving the order for any reason, for the cause of their race and their deities tenants are so aligned no cause could transcend the Order.

    With the Paladin flavor as it is (as far as I know) there really isn't much room for another race to be Paladin. The requirement to be a former cleric would have to be lifted to have any non-Cleric race become one. I made my argument for Elf Paladins above, but like I mentioned there, the Cleric requirement for entry kind of puts the kibosh on it.

    That's how I see it. Dark Myr might just be so dedicated to Syronai that for one to assume they could use her gifts to take judgement into their own hands would be heresy of the highest order and an afront to the memory of her and her sacrifice. 

     

    As for just throwing everything out the window and letting race/class be all/all:

     

    If players don't represent the average member of a race culturally then the entire feel of a race and their lore goes straight out the window. Players will encounter and interact with far more player characters of any given race than NPCs; You can't set up lore about gnomes being all about the arcane/studious pursuits when you run across your 20th gnome warrior in a day, likewise if you run into a bunch of ogre wizards, skar clerics, etc. Not to mention that then means they would need to add trainers/quests for those classes to each racial city, further breaking down the lore that it isn't a part of their culture...but really it is. 

     

    Players in things like D&D can get away with straying from whatever cultural norms but that's because they aren't running into others doing the same all over the world, only those in their group might be breaking the mold but otherwise the world/lore and cultures remain intact. 

    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:50 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Iksar said:

    Darchias said:

    Well, an important distinction is that Paladins are not just hybrid Clerics/Warriors: They are former clerics that devote the zeal they used to show their deity to a more mortal cause. The Dark Myr culture may revere those clerics to such a degree that Dark Myr Paladins are simply anamatha: No Cleric would dream of leaving the order for any reason, for the cause of their race and their deities tenants are so aligned no cause could transcend the Order.

    With the Paladin flavor as it is (as far as I know) there really isn't much room for another race to be Paladin. The requirement to be a former cleric would have to be lifted to have any non-Cleric race become one. I made my argument for Elf Paladins above, but like I mentioned there, the Cleric requirement for entry kind of puts the kibosh on it.

    That's how I see it. Dark Myr might just be so dedicated to Syronai that for one to assume they could use her gifts to take judgement into their own hands would be heresy of the highest order and an afront to the memory of her and her sacrifice. 
    add: And having the disclaimer at character creation about the EXP penalty and that you will have difficulty with things like class progression due to trainers being remote would also deter people.

     

    As for just throwing everything out the window and letting race/class be all/all:

     

    If players don't represent the average member of a race culturally then the entire feel of a race and their lore goes straight out the window. Players will encounter and interact with far more player characters of any given race than NPCs; You can't set up lore about gnomes being all about the arcane/studious pursuits when you run across your 20th gnome warrior in a day, likewise if you run into a bunch of ogre wizards, skar clerics, etc. Not to mention that then means they would need to add trainers/quests for those classes to each racial city, further breaking down the lore that it isn't a part of their culture...but really it is. 

     

    Players in things like D&D can get away with straying from whatever cultural norms but that's because they aren't running into others doing the same all over the world, only those in their group might be breaking the mold but otherwise the world/lore and cultures remain intact. 

    I totally get what you are saying Iksar, but I have to believe that there wouldn't be that many Ogre wizards if their INT was capped at 100 out of 255, or Gnome warriors with a max CON of 100 etc.  If you did see them, they would likely not be taken seriously in their racial communities (which would be more realistic).


    This post was edited by Darch at September 19, 2018 11:53 AM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:54 AM PDT

    Mobius said:

    Wasn't an evil Paladin a Blackguard in 3.5 D&D? I remember playing one in Neverwinter Nights, complete with +4 Scythe.
    I am an old RPer and I am perfectly fine with restrictions as they make you get creative with your builds, or simply make you come back and play through again as something else. I completely oppose the "Ogre wizard/monk half-red dragon" creep that sets in once you begin caving in to demands for every permutation of possible character variation. I would much rather they focus on content, and less on race/class additions to placate a noisey few.

     

    Asking for an Archai Paladin is not the same as min maxing or caving in to every possible permutation. There are only 2 races that can be paladins. There "should" be more. 

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:54 AM PDT

    Iksar said:If players don't represent the average member of a race culturally then the entire feel of a race and their lore goes straight out the window. Players will encounter and interact with far more player characters of any given race than NPCs; You can't set up lore about gnomes being all about the arcane/studious pursuits when you run across your 20th gnome warrior in a day, likewise if you run into a bunch of ogre wizards, skar clerics, etc. Not to mention that then means they would need to add trainers/quests for those classes to each racial city, further breaking down the lore that it isn't a part of their culture...but really it is.

    It doesn't have to be a lore/no-lore dichotomy.

    Taking your gnome warrior as an example... I know many people thought it was silly when Blizzard added Tauren paladins to the game, but I thought it was a brilliant way to incorporate new race/class combinations - providing a solid lore foundation through the story of the Sunwalkers. So in Pantheon, gnomes are intellectual and focused on magic, but that doesn't mean they can't have more physical-oriented classes. First of all, consider this quote from the Warrior page: "However, she is not content with fortitude alone, but refines her mind as well, becoming a master strategist amidst the mayhem of battle." Hmmm, refining the mind to become a master strategist. That certainly seems in line with a popular pursuit of gnomes! There's also a certain elegant practicality to a gnome researcher taking up arms - to defend themselves, their research, their home, or just so that they can more safely venture out into the world for field studies! Perhaps some gnomes conducted research to develop magical means to bolster their strength, allowing them to weild weapons that might otherwise be too much for their kin.

    In my opinion, lore doesn't have to shackle us - especially when it comes to race/class combinations.

    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:59 AM PDT

    I would like all classes possible on any race, however, there could be certain races that really excel at a specific class while other races are poor choices for that class, with capability to improve through gear.

    i.e. a Gnome could play as a Paladin but they would have a drastic disadvantage on total HP and strength, but maybe they have a larger mana pool? The Gnome Paladin could later acquire rare gear that includes HP and strength points to make up for some of that deficiency.

    Alternatively, an Ogre Paladin could have a lot of HP but lack mana, so they will pursue rare gear that provides mana.

     

    Then you will have your "ideal" races, the dwarf or human, where they have pretty balanced stats, without any additional gear.

     

    This is a way that VR could persuade people to play certain races for a class, but not make it ONLY a few races possible.


    This post was edited by Pilch at September 19, 2018 12:00 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:00 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    I totally get what you are saying Iksar, but I have to believe that there wouldn't be that many Ogre wizards if their INT was capped at 100 out of 255, or Gnome warriors with a max CON of 100 etc.  If you did see them, they would likely not be taken seriously in their racial communities (which would be more realistic).

    All races/players will have the same stat soft/hard caps. To do otherwise would end up just short of forcing players of different classes to pick one or two specific races or be heavily gimped and ostracized. 

    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:02 PM PDT

    The devs have stated that their race/class combos are not based on lore, but based on balancing (which has not been fully tested yet) and some combos may change.  We can argue lore all we want either for or against certain combos but at the end of the day its up to the devs.  ;)

    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:04 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Darch said:

    I totally get what you are saying Iksar, but I have to believe that there wouldn't be that many Ogre wizards if their INT was capped at 100 out of 255, or Gnome warriors with a max CON of 100 etc.  If you did see them, they would likely not be taken seriously in their racial communities (which would be more realistic).

    All races/players will have the same stat soft/hard caps. To do otherwise would end up just short of forcing players of different classes to pick one or two specific races or be heavily gimped and ostracized. 

    This is my point.  If a player "wants" to be a Skar Wizard, they could do so knowing that they will likely be less than optimal, but at least they'll have the choice.  Players are being "forced" to be certain races and classes the way it is now.

    edit:  maybe 100/255 was harsh, but it was just an example.  Maybe something like a cap of 200/255 (for that class's primary stat)


    This post was edited by Darch at September 19, 2018 12:06 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:15 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    It doesn't have to be a lore/no-lore dichotomy.

    Taking your gnome warrior as an example... I know many people thought it was silly when Blizzard added Tauren paladins to the game, but I thought it was a brilliant way to incorporate new race/class combinations - providing a solid lore foundation through the story of the Sunwalkers. So in Pantheon, gnomes are intellectual and focused on magic, but that doesn't mean they can't have more physical-oriented classes. First of all, consider this quote from the Warrior page: "However, she is not content with fortitude alone, but refines her mind as well, becoming a master strategist amidst the mayhem of battle." Hmmm, refining the mind to become a master strategist. That certainly seems in line with a popular pursuit of gnomes! There's also a certain elegant practicality to a gnome researcher taking up arms - to defend themselves, their research, their home, or just so that they can more safely venture out into the world for field studies! Perhaps some gnomes conducted research to develop magical means to bolster their strength, allowing them to weild weapons that might otherwise be too much for their kin.

    In my opinion, lore doesn't have to shackle us - especially when it comes to race/class combinations.

    It does if they truly want to create a world and not just a game. Lore is pretty important for that.

    Gnomes have wispy ethereal bodies that would presumeably collapse under the weight of plate armors and heavy weaponry, not like they can build muscle or anything since they have none; regardless it seems to me that a race so gifted in the arcane would play to their own strengths and take up arms and defend themselves with magic instead of trying to make a weakness of theirs slightly less weak so they can charge out and try to melee things (that are likely much larger and physically stronger than them) down in heavy armors. Can't really have gnome cleric/paladin either as gnomes don't seem to have any deities (and the heavy armors etc), let alone strong connections with them if they do exist but aren't mentioned at all. 

    Lots of issues like that are presented by lore, by creating a world with unique races/cultures/histories instead of just a game with some loose lore that mostly doesn't apply. 

    • 633 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:18 PM PDT

    If you're going to gimp race/class combinations instead of simply not allowing them, then you're likely hurting yourself in the long run.  Because people will create those race/class combinations and a year down the road will be upset that their character can't perform as others at high levels.  Then you'll have to put up with people complaining about the caps or restrictions, or you'll have people quitting because they get frustrated.  May as well have started out preventing people from playing those race/class combinations in the first place.

    • 134 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:21 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    This is a dead horse that has been kicked and kicked.  Only a handful of Paladin fans like the dev's race/class restriction for Paladin but the Paladin is Brad's baby so no matter how much we complain this will not change for at least 2 expansions.  But to defend your opinion, I too cannot stand the World of Warcraft cliche' of only Humans and Dwarves.  What makes the arguement even worse is that the PRotF Paladin is supposedly a former cleric turned more militant... and the Dark Myr can be both Cleric and Warrior, but not Paladin?  huh?!?  A lot of DnD players will argue that Good and Evil are perception... One man's hero is another man's villain.

     

    I try to make this point to my D&D group all the time but they never seem to listen. Certain situations and circumstances call for different varients of "good" and "evil"

    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:22 PM PDT

    kelenin said:

    If you're going to gimp race/class combinations instead of simply not allowing them, then you're likely hurting yourself in the long run.  Because people will create those race/class combinations and a year down the road will be upset that their character can't perform as others at high levels.  Then you'll have to put up with people complaining about the caps or restrictions, or you'll have people quitting because they get frustrated.  May as well have started out preventing people from playing those race/class combinations in the first place.

    People complaining that their class is weak will happen invevitably and in fact the devs are encouraging some race/class combos being stronger than others.

    add: But you are absolutely correct.


    This post was edited by Darch at September 19, 2018 12:29 PM PDT
    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:31 PM PDT

    kelenin said:

    If you're going to gimp race/class combinations instead of simply not allowing them, then you're likely hurting yourself in the long run.  Because people will create those race/class combinations and a year down the road will be upset that their character can't perform as others at high levels.  Then you'll have to put up with people complaining about the caps or restrictions, or you'll have people quitting because they get frustrated.  May as well have started out preventing people from playing those race/class combinations in the first place.

     

    Progeny system :)

     

    • 363 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:33 PM PDT

    Dulu said:

    Ainadak said:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5771/elves-can-t-be-paladins

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5347/paladin-race-class-picture

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3579/what-race-will-be-your-crusader

    Three topics all on the front page of the Paladin forums.

     

    This isn't about the Paladin class. It's about the design of the game.

     

    I think that was their point. What you and some others want is changing design. Play it, and enjoy it or perhaps find another game. Don't you think its odd that you want to change what these dev's are creating sight unseen?

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 1:18 PM PDT

    Iksar said:It does if they truly want to create a world and not just a game. Lore is pretty important for that.

    This statement is meaningless. Lore can be whatever VR wants it to be, and race/class limitations are in no way necessary to "create a wrold and not just a game".

    I just spent a whole paragraph explaining how lore can support something as seemingly "unusual" as a gnome warrior. Besides, gnomes lacking a physical form doesn't preclude being able to wear armor in my mind. If anything, they could potentially be stronger because they don't have to deal with the limitations of organic muscles, bones, and tendons.

    • 2752 posts
    September 19, 2018 1:52 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Iksar said:It does if they truly want to create a world and not just a game. Lore is pretty important for that.

    This statement is meaningless. Lore can be whatever VR wants it to be, and race/class limitations are in no way necessary to "create a wrold and not just a game".

    I just spent a whole paragraph explaining how lore can support something as seemingly "unusual" as a gnome warrior. Besides, gnomes lacking a physical form doesn't preclude being able to wear armor in my mind. If anything, they could potentially be stronger because they don't have to deal with the limitations of organic muscles, bones, and tendons.

    If they rewrite a majority of the lore for the races and world then sure, the lore can support everyone being everything. There is no easy lore change to allow, for example, Skar cleric/paladin/wizard/summoner/enchanter/druid. Same general idea for highly physical STR based classes like dire lord/paladin/ranger/monk/warrior or such a heavy deity centric class like cleric not being easily changed so that gnome can do those jobs.

    Sure you could go off the deep end and just "but magic" anything in a fantasy game, but it's pretty lazy. Some gnomes bolster their bodily ability and physical strength so they can engage in melee combat less effectively than others? What happens if they get dispelled? Do they collapse or just implode? 

    • 1479 posts
    September 19, 2018 2:19 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Iksar said:It does if they truly want to create a world and not just a game. Lore is pretty important for that.

    This statement is meaningless. Lore can be whatever VR wants it to be, and race/class limitations are in no way necessary to "create a wrold and not just a game".

    I just spent a whole paragraph explaining how lore can support something as seemingly "unusual" as a gnome warrior. Besides, gnomes lacking a physical form doesn't preclude being able to wear armor in my mind. If anything, they could potentially be stronger because they don't have to deal with the limitations of organic muscles, bones, and tendons.

    That's a false argument, Lore is meant to support the game design but if game design dictates what lore should be, you end up with a very poorly coherent universe which translate into a dull, bland game even non lore friendly players will avoid. Wow made this error by opening some non sense class/race combos (tauren paladins, dwarven mages, other examples not included) that felt poor even if argumented with "lore" in game, that's when balance or player complaints lead the game and the lore to desecrate into something unfitting.

    While many player don't care about lore or roleplay, most (I won't say every because I'm sure some guy will join and claim he don't) care about a coherent and organic universe. You wouldn't play darksouls if it featured cute teddies, you wouldn't play Modern Warfare if it featurer Assasins with swords and shields. That's the same for any game, and the reason a lot of asian MMORPG are barely alive (Tera, heh), coherence and organic design of the world is a core key to make a game immersive and interesting.

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 2:28 PM PDT

    Iksar said:If they rewrite a majority of the lore for the races and world then sure, the lore can support everyone being everything. There is no easy lore change to allow, for example, Skar cleric/paladin/wizard/summoner/enchanter/druid. Same general idea for highly physical STR based classes like dire lord/paladin/ranger/monk/warrior or such a heavy deity centric class like cleric not being easily changed so that gnome can do those jobs.

    Sure you could go off the deep end and just "but magic" anything in a fantasy game, but it's pretty lazy. Some gnomes bolster their bodily ability and physical strength so they can engage in melee combat less effectively than others? What happens if they get dispelled? Do they collapse or just implode?

    It honestly feels like you're not giving enough credence to my ideas. The explanation I whipped up for gnome warriors wasn't just "but magic" and actually made use of a sentence of lore already in the class description. VR wouldn't have to change anything. (Bodies made of energy suggest, at least to me, that they would be even more durable than us fleshies!)

    There's nothing explicit in the Skar lore page that suggests they should be unable to weild magic. Summoner most of all would quite easily fit them. Skar are hyper-vicious, so then what in "Through a single word, the Enchanter can turn the intent of an enemy and break even the strongest of wills into submission" would not suit them? Cleric and paladin are easily supported by giving the Skar their own group of zealots, united by their hateful respect of the Nine God. Cleric/paladin in name for game mechanics, but lore-wise, they would be different from the cleric order of humans or dwarves (a lot like how Sunwalkers and Priestesses of Elune in WoW follow different religions from humans, but the game mechanics call them all priests/paladins for simplicity's sake).

    My point is, these kinds of things aren't just willy-nilly handwaving. It's easy to come up with justifications for even seemingly unconventional race/class combinations, justifications that are far more than just saying, "Eh, **** it, magic!"

    MauvaisOeil said:While many player don't care about lore or roleplay, most (I won't say every because I'm sure some guy will join and claim he don't) care about a coherent and organic universe. You wouldn't play darksouls if it featured cute teddies, you wouldn't play Modern Warfare if it featurer Assasins with swords and shields. That's the same for any game, and the reason a lot of asian MMORPG are barely alive (Tera, heh), coherence and organic design of the world is a core key to make a game immersive and interesting.

    My argument against race/class limitations is not arguing for an incoherent universe. You're setting up strawmen.


    This post was edited by Naunet at September 19, 2018 2:30 PM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    September 19, 2018 3:16 PM PDT
    Honestly I don't think dark myrs should be able to be paladins that would be like dark elves being paladins on eq and they are a evil race, know I don't know if I would consider them to be evil but they definately aren't holy. And just becuase you can be a cleric and warrior doesn't mean anything when it comes to being a paladin, you can be a evil warrior or cleric, you can't be an evil paladin that is a dire lord my friends
    • 1584 posts
    September 19, 2018 3:59 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Iksar said:If they rewrite a majority of the lore for the races and world then sure, the lore can support everyone being everything. There is no easy lore change to allow, for example, Skar cleric/paladin/wizard/summoner/enchanter/druid. Same general idea for highly physical STR based classes like dire lord/paladin/ranger/monk/warrior or such a heavy deity centric class like cleric not being easily changed so that gnome can do those jobs.

    Sure you could go off the deep end and just "but magic" anything in a fantasy game, but it's pretty lazy. Some gnomes bolster their bodily ability and physical strength so they can engage in melee combat less effectively than others? What happens if they get dispelled? Do they collapse or just implode?

    It honestly feels like you're not giving enough credence to my ideas. The explanation I whipped up for gnome warriors wasn't just "but magic" and actually made use of a sentence of lore already in the class description. VR wouldn't have to change anything. (Bodies made of energy suggest, at least to me, that they would be even more durable than us fleshies!)

    There's nothing explicit in the Skar lore page that suggests they should be unable to weild magic. Summoner most of all would quite easily fit them. Skar are hyper-vicious, so then what in "Through a single word, the Enchanter can turn the intent of an enemy and break even the strongest of wills into submission" would not suit them? Cleric and paladin are easily supported by giving the Skar their own group of zealots, united by their hateful respect of the Nine God. Cleric/paladin in name for game mechanics, but lore-wise, they would be different from the cleric order of humans or dwarves (a lot like how Sunwalkers and Priestesses of Elune in WoW follow different religions from humans, but the game mechanics call them all priests/paladins for simplicity's sake).

    My point is, these kinds of things aren't just willy-nilly handwaving. It's easy to come up with justifications for even seemingly unconventional race/class combinations, justifications that are far more than just saying, "Eh, **** it, magic!"

    MauvaisOeil said:While many player don't care about lore or roleplay, most (I won't say every because I'm sure some guy will join and claim he don't) care about a coherent and organic universe. You wouldn't play darksouls if it featured cute teddies, you wouldn't play Modern Warfare if it featurer Assasins with swords and shields. That's the same for any game, and the reason a lot of asian MMORPG are barely alive (Tera, heh), coherence and organic design of the world is a core key to make a game immersive and interesting.

    My argument against race/class limitations is not arguing for an incoherent universe. You're setting up strawmen.

    I'll make it easy, the devs decided that only 2 races can become paladins for balancing proposes, and honestly the lore of the gnomes in no way fits with them being warriors, and also pretty much no other race really fits the paladins theme

    ogres and tribal and use witch doctors and not clerics, 

    Dark myrs aren't holy and no such thing as an unholy paladin

    Elves aren't regilious

    Skar are brutual and don't even care when they kill their own kind and don't care if there was any justification to it at all.

    These are a short view on why I think most of classes people are suggesting shouldn't be paladins, and like other people have said it brings a unique o the game by itself, we don't need paladins to be on 5 different races, much like we don't need any class to be on 5 different races.

    • 1479 posts
    September 19, 2018 4:11 PM PDT

    Naunet said : My argument against race/class limitations is not arguing for an incoherent universe. You're setting up strawmen.

     

    I guess you missed the part where I specifically explained how making up lore for gameplay reason ends up making the coherence worse. I get your point of "making the lore into opening new combos", but that doesn't work that way. I'm no writer, but I think any writer would agree at this : As long as you change your story, background or universe to support new ideas, they will feel out of place and bare justification. A background shouldn't be made to justify things, but things should exist due to the background.

    • 2752 posts
    September 19, 2018 4:25 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    It honestly feels like you're not giving enough credence to my ideas. The explanation I whipped up for gnome warriors wasn't just "but magic" and actually made use of a sentence of lore already in the class description. VR wouldn't have to change anything. (Bodies made of energy suggest, at least to me, that they would be even more durable than us fleshies!)

    There's nothing explicit in the Skar lore page that suggests they should be unable to weild magic. Summoner most of all would quite easily fit them. Skar are hyper-vicious, so then what in "Through a single word, the Enchanter can turn the intent of an enemy and break even the strongest of wills into submission" would not suit them? Cleric and paladin are easily supported by giving the Skar their own group of zealots, united by their hateful respect of the Nine God. Cleric/paladin in name for game mechanics, but lore-wise, they would be different from the cleric order of humans or dwarves (a lot like how Sunwalkers and Priestesses of Elune in WoW follow different religions from humans, but the game mechanics call them all priests/paladins for simplicity's sake).

    My point is, these kinds of things aren't just willy-nilly handwaving. It's easy to come up with justifications for even seemingly unconventional race/class combinations, justifications that are far more than just saying, "Eh, **** it, magic!"

    If we want to be precise, the gnomes have cloth bodies instead of flesh as their souls are bound to the cloth. But we will never really know how exactly that works compared to flesh and blood (if you only cut up a part of the cloth do they injure? Does their essence leak? Or does the entirety of the cloth need to be destroyed to kill them etc).

     

    That wouldn't mesh with Skar lore at all though, it isn't me brushing aside your ideas. From their lore page: "Suicidally vicious, tribal and short-sighted, the Skar fear only their "Nine God" and are there fervent only in their hatred... What truth can be grasped about a race that keeps no written record of its past?" How would it stand that Skar could have casters when they don't even keep written records and are short-sighted in general? Nothing about them would fit spending years poring over research studying the arcane, let alone would they have the resources or proclivity to do so.

     

    Similarly it would be absurd for Skar to have clerics/paladins as their power is entirely divined from ancient tomes/writings/etc from their religious orders; they literally summon books to carry around. Not to mention it would be a serious break with a core aspect of the race and something much of their design branched from (as said in the recent newsletter), which is their antagonistic relationship toward The Nine God and the pure malice they cling to toward it. And finally even if their was some kind of religious outcasts that worshipped The Nine God, it doesn't seem very interested in doing the Skar any favors, let alone blessings or otherwise giving them healing powers. 

     

    It isn't so easy without it being willy-nilly hand-waving.

    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2018 4:39 PM PDT

    One of the cool things about "roleplaying" (MMORPG) is that we can play a character how we envision them.  I think it's fine to go against the grain a bit.  That said, I do think it's fair that the race/class matrix is preserved at character inception.  I think it's reasonable that players could unlock exotic class/race combinations through progeny as it would play into the prestige factor.

    • 1120 posts
    September 19, 2018 5:49 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    This is my point.  If a player "wants" to be a Skar Wizard, they could do so knowing that they will likely be less than optimal, but at least they'll have the choice.  Players are being "forced" to be certain races and classes the way it is now.

    edit:  maybe 100/255 was harsh, but it was just an example.  Maybe something like a cap of 200/255 (for that class's primary stat)

    I'm completely against all/all... but I honestly think this would be a great idea in general.  Not even for classes that "dont fit".   In EQ, your starting stats mattered for all of 2 expansions.  I would love to see various races not only have different starting stats. But also different stat caps for themselves.  Ogres should not be able to have 255 charisma, or 255 intelligence.  But maybe they CAN have 200 wisdom.

    This would make race selection actually matter more than silly racials that won't matter.