Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The XP Journey

    • 3237 posts
    September 17, 2018 2:52 PM PDT

    I'd like to preface my post with a list of the stated game tenets that I associate with this topic:

     

    1)  An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable.

    2)  A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

    3)  A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.

    4)  A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.

    5)  An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.

    6)  An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.

    7)  A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.

    8)  A requirement that classes have identities.  No single player should be able to do everything on their own.

    9)  An understanding that player involvement is required for progression.  All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences.  Positive actions should be rewarded.  Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

    10)  A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.

    11)  Content is king.

     

    That's nearly 75% of the tenets so in my eyes this discussion is considered a core part of my planned experience with Pantheon.  I am going to break down what each tenet means to me and then add some closing thoughts that tie everything together.  

     

    An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable.

    In many ways, I would consider this tenet a by-product of the other tenets being achieved.  The more impactful each of the other tenets are, the more meaningful and memorable my levels will ultimately feel.  This tenet represents the name of this thread;  "The XP Journey"  --  will it be an incredible experience or a means to an end?

     

    A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

    Pantheon has been dubbed as a group-centric game and as such this tenet serves as the perfect segue.  "Shared" and "Earned" are the keywords for me here.  The content in Pantheon should be designed to challenge groups of players  --  this should be the rule, not the exception.  Solo viability should be extremely limited and the world and it's challenges should never be watered down to compensate for that reality.  Whether it's overland zones or dungeons, I want to see a world full of NPC's that I have no business messing with when I'm alone.  Whether it's questing, exploring, or leveling ... I will never be able to appreciate a sense of accomplishment if these activities aren't reliant on other players.

     

    A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.

    Player interdependence is the recurring theme with each and every tenet.  Activities that require the aid of fellow adventurers are an integral component of the socially driven and challenging experience that I am looking for.  Leveling up is a big part of the journey and I don't want the accomplishment of doing it to be neutered for the sake of convenience or accessibility.  Enemies should swat down solo players with ease and the idea of emergent gameplay should continue growing in significance as more players are added to the equation.  Quad kiting shouldn't be a thing in Pantheon.  Mass AoE carnage shouldn't be a thing in Pantheon.  Multi-boxing should be rendered highly ineffective when it comes to meaningful progression.  There should be plenty of gatekeepers that prevent content circumvention via sneak/invis/feign death.

     

    A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.

    The "quaternity" needs to reign supreme when it comes time to balance content.  Encounters should be designed to challenge groups that have each major role filled;  Tank/Healer/DPS/Support  --  that is the baseline that should be accounted for.  Enemies should deal burst damage that can only be surived by a tank, and enough sustained damage to require consistent health replenishment from a healer.  Enemies should have a naturally high amount of HP to ensure that the DPS role has an opportunity to shine.  NPC movement patterns and behaviors should be methodical; clean pulls should require good timing, precision, and situational awareness.  Enemies should have a variety of curveballs they throw our way in an effort to disrupt the tried and true approach of a balanced group.  Complex aggro mechanics and positioning should keep players on their toes.  Mana and other combat resources should be precious enough to where every ability or spell cost has some degree of risk/reward.  Support classes should offer resource regeneration, encounter control, and threat modifiers.

    All classes should be able to create "windows of opportunity" that allow other players to synergize their efforts and overcome the obstacles that are designed to challenge us.  The world and it's inhabitants should be ruthless and there should be an expectation of death if these important group mechanics aren't accounted for.  I love the idea of emergent gameplay but it's 2018  --  let's usher in a new wave of tactics and strategy.  The "cheesing" from 15+ years ago is well known and we shouldn't be trying to recreate a world where the old "emergent gameplay" is already considered a viable option.  I want to see surprises and twists and I want players to reinvent the wheel of what emergent gameplay is from a combat perspective.  Combat should be engaging enough to where calculated actions are necessary in order to triumph  --  the more balanced your group is, the more likely you will be able to overcome a mistake, exploit the weaknesses of your enemies, or capitalize on the strengths and synergy potential of your group.

     

    An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.

    The spectrum of risk vs reward should expand much further than relative con level and whether or not an NPC is considered a "named" or not.  The journey to max level should be challenging in and of itself but we should encounter countless "opportunities" along the way.  The XP Chain feature from FFXI would be a great way to add a deep layer of risk vs reward to our journey.  Tackling content that is designed around having a balanced group of adventurers should be a challenge in and of itself but the real magic happens when you add a time-to-kill variable and chaining mechanic to the equation.

    In order to qualify for an XP chain, an NPC must be even-con or higher to every member of the group.  Killing the 4'th or 5'th mob in a chain prior to the timer expiring creates both a risk and reward element that cannot possibly be achieved otherwise.  Players are incentivized to push the envelope and defeat challenging content while the circumstances are less than favorable.  This creates amazing opportunities for emergent gameplay when it comes to tanking, pulling, healing, managing resources, or squeezing out a little more damage when you need it the most.  I can't think of a better way to capitalize on this tenet (and several others listed here) than including the XP Chain feature from FFXI.

     

    An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.

    But wait ... if the content is designed to require a balanced group and the best XP is only possible when players are performing and synergizing at a high level ... wouldn't this create a standard of excellence that players will seek to achieve?  Absolutely.  If we want leveling up to feel meaningful and memorable then we should be "challenged" in the process.  I don't want leveling to be nothing more than a glorified timesink.  Leveling up can be fun, engaging, meaningful, memorable, challenging, rewarding, prestigious, and incredibly social.  I don't want to see participation trophies.

    I don't want to see players adopting an "anything works" mentality because the game isn't challenging enough.  XP should be considered a precious resource and that isn't possible if players accumulate massive amounts of it without even trying.  The leveling curve should be designed to challenge us by default.  Every level should be hellish and every ding should be heavenly.  The world should be dangerous and actively attempting to whittle our XP bars down.  If you want to grow in power then you need to practice good death prevention habits and make good use of the most precious resource of all; other real players.

     

    A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.

    Good old fashioned player interdependence ... we meet again.  Every class should be able to fulfill a main role and potentially a secondary role or two depending on how much "meaningful character progression" the player has unlocked.  Whether it's opportune situational gear or clever hotbar management I think it's reasonable that our characters can advance beyond being meatshields, pocket heals, deeps, and buff bots.  The game should grow more and more challenging as we continue to level up and the broader access to our toolkits should allow us to counter the new monkey wrenches and curve balls that the world will inevitably throw our way.

    When it comes to power and prestige there is no better way to enjoy these things than offering improved benefits to the other players that are relying on you to accomplish anything meaningful in the game.  This isn't a phenomenon that should only take place at end-game.  Leveling up should take dedication and meaningful character progression should require a coordinated group effort.  Fulfilling your role should feel meaningful and this sensation is inherent when the game is built from the ground up to require it.

     

    A requirement that classes have identities.  No single player should be able to do everything on their own.

    I feel like this has already been explained pretty thoroughly.  Players will be able to do what the game allows them to do and hopefully the cheese that we have seen in other games doesn't rear it's ugly head here.  If you want to accomplish something meaningful in a "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game" then you need to embrace your role in a group setting.  There could be exceptions to this rule but that's all they should ever be ... exceptions.

     

    An understanding that player involvement is required for progression.  All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences.  Positive actions should be rewarded.  Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

    This is another area where I would cite the FFXI XP Chain feature as superior to the XP Bonus that was offered in Everquest.  It was an earned bonus that required high levels of cooperation and teamwork.  Beyond that, it's also important to not disrupt player interdependence by making things too convenient for the casual minded player.  Meaningful travel needs to be a thing.  Advancement should be meaningful and challenging and that entails fighting challenging encounters.  Using the con system as an example ... if an enemy isn't white con or higher then it isn't challenging and therefore shouldn't offer significant XP gain.  Putting together a balanced group and coordinating the efforts of every player in that group to meet up in a given area and spend time working toward a common goal should be viewed as a staple of the game.  Emergent gameplay is a beautiful thing when the game is designed to challenge us rather than reward us.

     

    A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.

    One of the misconceptions about XP chains is that they paved a path toward non-stop PVE combat action.  The reality is that players would endure meaningful downtime in between each and every chain.  The higher chains required your group to start off with maximum resources and by the time you were working on that final link, they were really running thin.  This made combat really interesting because the best rewards were only attainable when your back was pushed against the wall.  "The Grind" as we know it has been a boring and monotonous venture in most MMO's because there usually isn't any real sense of danger.  Imagine a grind where every session can be filled with clutch moments ... emergent player behavior where someone turns the tide of a battle going the wrong way into your favor. 

    These type of moments are jam-packed into a grind that features XP chains because the risk vs reward sensation is constant.  You continue to do battle until your resources are almost completely exhausted and then you pull one more ... because that final link in the chain is going to offer the best possible reward if you achieve it.  Once you do ... it's time to kick back for a little bit and regen your resources.  It offers a brief (2-3 minutes) window of time where your group can reflect on the meaningful progress you are making, knowing it's a direct by-product of the teamwork that every single person is contributing toward.  It's pretty magical when something that is often viewed as boring and monotonous offers high replay value and opportunities for emergent gameplay on a regular basis.  That's sticky ... and fun.

     

    Content is king.

    The more solo content you offer, the less players you'll see available for grouping.  Sometimes less is more and as far as I'm concerned designing content for the solo player is only going to detract from the overall experience that Pantheon is seeking to deliver.  We either want an intensely social and group-centric game or we don't.  I understand that some people don't like the idea of challenging content that requires strong/balanced group compositions.  I understand that some people will remember the days where they could quad kite 4 challenging mobs simultaneously and soak in mounds of XP.  I remember first-hand playing through games where you could create an AoE group and mass-pull entire rooms of NPC's and watch them all melt before your eyes for a nice chunk of XP.  That isn't what I'm looking for with Pantheon.  I want the "average" NPC to be challenging with high HP and damage.  I don't want to steamroll content by playing the game the way it's meant to be played  --  with a full group of adventurers that seek a challenging experience centered around their ability to work together.

     

    Closing Thoughts

    Like many people in this community I miss the good old days when accomplishments felt meaningful.  When it comes to an ideal death penalty, I feel experience loss (with the possibility to de-level) is ideal.  I have spoken with quite a few former EQ players who insist that XP loss alone could never offer enough sting to satisfy the requirements of a meaningful death penalty.  I am confident that XP was more valuable of a resource in FFXI than it was in EQ.  Players absolutely respected and feared death without there ever being a need for corpse runs.  I'm not saying that I'm against corpse runs in Pantheon  --  I think it's an interesting dynamic that I would probably enjoy, but I would rather see gear-loss removed from the equation.

    Instead, I would like to see our corpses retain a chunk of XP that will decay over a period of time before disappearing altogether when the corpse rots.  XP is only as meaningful of a resource as VR wants to make it.  Remove the free XP bonus for adding people to your group like EQ had (it violates tenet#9) and consider something like XP chains from FFXI.  Make the game truly challenging and focused on group-centric play ... and ensure that the leveling process is a big part of that.  Earning and maintaining an XP buffer at max level should be difficult and players should be able to leverage it as a resource.  Pantheon promises "Challenge Reborn"  --  I expect nothing less when it comes to my journey to max level and beyond.

     


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 18, 2019 9:51 AM PST
    • 1785 posts
    September 17, 2018 3:39 PM PDT

    You wrote a lot (which I appreciate, but it was a lot).  Let me see if I parsed out what you're getting at properly:

    1) You would like to see corpse retrieval return experience lost on death, but with diminishing returns based on how long it takes to get back.  You also want the potential for deleveling so that death is a risk for max-level players

    2) You prefer FFXI's XP chain mechanic to an EQ-style passive XP bonus based on group size

    Did that sum it up or did I miss something?

    • 3237 posts
    September 17, 2018 3:50 PM PDT

    There was quite a bit more to it than that.  The why is just as important as the what/how, but it's obviously subjective.  I wanted to provide a more detailed account on what a meaningful leveling journey would feel like for me.  I have shared a decent amount of this information before and have been met with various objections that were alluded to throughout the post.

    • 643 posts
    September 17, 2018 4:32 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I'd like to preface my post with a list of the stated game tenets that I associate with this topic:

     ...

    4)  A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.

    ...

    I wish we could definitively expand upon this. 

    Yes, these games are ultimately about beating/defeating your enemies but the genre, in general, got so watered down mostly because there was an over-emphasis on just combat, and only combat.  To the point that other aspects of the immersion were sacrificed in order to increase the amount of combat you could experience.  The whole MMORPG genre became nothing more than console-style combat games with some trappings of an MMORPG.

    I think this tenet should be re-written to say "A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersion, engaging combat, and meaningful group mechanics."

    The immersion should not be just a vehicle to get to the combat.

    There are a lot of aspects in a good (old school) high fantasy MMORPG besides combat: questing, exploring, traveling, lore, tradeskills, etc.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by fazool at September 17, 2018 4:32 PM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    September 17, 2018 4:38 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    There was quite a bit more to it than that.  The why is just as important as the what/how, but it's obviously subjective.  I wanted to provide a more detailed account on what a meaningful leveling journey would feel like for me.  I have shared a decent amount of this information before and have been met with various objections that were alluded to throughout the post.

    Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that your explanations weren't important or relevant.  I'm just very red today, since I've been in work meetings for pretty much the whole day.

    I mainly just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing the practical aspects of what you are advocating for.

    Edit:  Re-reading, I think you hit on a few things we should maybe discuss separately.

    1) Rate and mechanics of XP gain (and loss)

    2) Encounter design

    3) Area design

    4) Group synergies

    5) Components of challenging combat

     

    I say this because I think all of these work together to provide the experience you describe, but they all exist independently of each other.  If we want Pantheon to provide a newer, better experience than older games, all of these things need to be thought through, not just one or two of them.

     

     


    This post was edited by Nephele at September 18, 2018 7:32 AM PDT
    • 97 posts
    September 17, 2018 5:05 PM PDT

    I particularly do not like the concept of EXP chains, especially in a game like Pantheon where it would break tenet #10 (I think one of the most important tenets and a big reason why we're all here). I get the point you're trying to make between chains but this mechanic would completely alter the mood of the game where every encounter becomes a fight against time and resource management (to a much higher degree). It reminds me of timed mythics in WoW and I despised them! I dislike anything that's timed really. To me it feels gimmicky and un-immersive and "game-ifies" an MMO world. I want to live and breathe in the world, not have anxiety all night long because everyone wants to keep pushing all night and every night to get bonuses.

    Everyone would most likely expect you to be 100% optimal and healers would get a lot of the blame because these sorts of mechanics usually fall on healer's mana. I've seen this story before and I personally do not wish it to be in Pantheon on a normal, regular grouping basis. I believe there could be better challenges/rewards than blowing out your mana pool to see how many mobs you can down. I guess it just doesn't feel like Pantheon to me. 

    • 2419 posts
    September 17, 2018 5:15 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    You wrote a lot (which I appreciate, but it was a lot).  Let me see if I parsed out what you're getting at properly:

    1) You would like to see corpse retrieval return experience lost on death, but with diminishing returns based on how long it takes to get back.  You also want the potential for deleveling so that death is a risk for max-level players

    By this I hope it means that the shorter time it takes to retrieve a corpse the less XP returned?

    • 96 posts
    September 17, 2018 6:03 PM PDT

    EXP chains were one of my favorite features of FFXI. It made those long camping EXP sessions really exciting for short bursts at a time, seeing if you could get that final chain.

    While I understand it "could" make the game feel more rushed if you were in a very hardcore group, I never felt pressured to get the next exp chain. It was more like a bonus that no one expected, but if you could keep it going it felt awesome!

    If I remember correctly the chains went up to #5. Chains 1 through 3 had a lot of time to complete, so they were almost guaranteed if you guys are actively pulling mobs, #4 could be missed if the DPS is not high enough or that pull was really far away but no one really cared. #5 would only happen in a really good group, so most of the time no one was expecting to get #5s. After the chain there is still down time, you have to gather all your mana back to start the chain process over again; I find that this plays into tenet #10 really well.

    One of the reasons I believe that people didnt pressure too hard for constant EXP chaining was because of the death EXP penalty. What would be the sense in forcing your group to get that last chain for some extra EXP if your risking even more EXP if you die?

    I'd love if Pantheon incorporated some sort of EXP chaining

     

    • 3852 posts
    September 17, 2018 6:23 PM PDT

    I disagree emphatically and in all respects with the OP's opinion that solo play opportunities should be extremely limited.

    Less of them - and limited to landscape in the main - yes.

    Inferior loot - yes.

    Inferior xp per minute - yes.

    But there are many reasons to play - and pay for - Pantheon and a focus on grouping is just *one* of many. Someone that would rather solo may want the same slow leveling, severe death penalties, detailed world etc etc as you do. If the game supports only those that play the way you do in *all* respects as distinct from *many* respects we may have so few players that neither you nor anyone else gets what they want.

    Even those that never *want* to solo may only have two or three uninterrupted hours a few times a week if that much. If they cannot do something productive the *other* three or four or five nights their subscription money may go elsewhere. And that will include a lot of people on this forum that talk the talk but simply don't have the uninterrupted time to group all the time. Even though they mean what they say - I do not even remotely imply otherwise.

    A game with extremely limited solo opportunities - whatever that means - will fail. Will that help you - no not in any slightest way. 

    We need to appeal to a wider assortment of the old school than those that will always have time to group when they want to log on.

    We need to appeal to a wider assortment of younger (or less MMO-experienced) people that may not plan on grouping 95% of the time but may learn to love it. You don't get new people to learn to play that way by forcing them to group - you suck them in with a good game that lets them have a choice and ...encourage them .... by the good community, the greater xp rewards and the better loot that the groups get. Thus I said as I always say on this topic that solo cannot and shouldn't be separate but equal. It should be separate and inferior. But not inferior in the sense of meaningless - a sop - a phantasm - a fiction - as you would have it. Quite playable just not as rewarding so those that play it will enjoy the game but be encouraged to join the groups they see getting more than they do and in less time.

    As usual your post is well written and contains many things I agree with. But this one point I disagree oh so very strongly with.


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 17, 2018 6:41 PM PDT
    • 999 posts
    September 17, 2018 6:56 PM PDT

    I read over the concept of Exp Chaining that you had linked for me previously @OneADSeven and I can agree that it does seem to be a unique (and perhaps exciting feature) to a monotonous grind. 

    But, like most in-game mechanics, I still prefer for the natural in-game synergy of the group to create a chain-like mechanic.  I'd be perfectly fine with removing any group incentive bonus that EQ had as the incentive to group should be for better exp, loot, etc.  That all hinges on how group-centric Pantheon ultimately is though (at least EQ-launchish in my opinion).

    Example of group synergy: in EQ or even VG, if your group found the "sweet" spot of grinding you could chain pull while all the group was either low, or nearly out of mana continously grinding exp.  While, other groups I had been in either blew all their mana on one mob and then would need to /med, or just didn't have the continuous flow - exp was slower.  I'd still prefer features that would enhance that natural synergy between groups rather than provide external bonuses for groups to attempt to achieve it.  This all hinges on resource management being paramount in Pantheon, and players obtaining the skill levels and class knowledge to efficiently utilize resources.  You still have the feeling of what you're describing, without the mechanic being in game.  As an aside, I'd rather have less features that lessen the time to achieve max level than more. 

    Ultimately, I think you want the same game as EQ vets, you just experienced a feature (XP Chains) you liked in FFXI that most EQ vets either haven't, are neutral about, or don't like. I didn't experience it, but based on your explanation, I feel I did in my EQ experience without the game mechanic ever existing.

    And, you didn't experience a feature in EQ (Naked Corpse Runs) that most of everyone that truly played in March of 1999 would say is an extremely important part of the death penalty, which, I've stated several times here that I'd actually like to see increased from EQ launch (death was neglible at max level with 95-99% resses).  The resses should end at 50%ish.

    • 3852 posts
    September 17, 2018 7:07 PM PDT

    Example of group synergy: in EQ or even VG, if your group found the "sweet" spot of grinding you could chain pull while all the group was either low, or nearly out of mana continously grinding exp.  While, other groups I had been in either blew all their mana on one mob and then would need to /med, or just didn't have the continuous flow - exp was slower.  I'd still prefer features that would enhance that natural synergy between groups rather than provide external bonuses for groups to attempt to achieve it.  This all hinges on resource management being paramount in Pantheon, and players obtaining the skill levels and class knowledge to efficiently utilize resources.  You still have the feeling of what you're describing, without the mechanic being in game.

     

    Just for variation from my last post I will add that I agree emphatically and in all respects with this.

    Which doesn't necessarily mean that some form of xp chaining cannot be good - but where I have seen it tried the negatives tend to outweigh the positives. Groups limited to specific classes that the leader feels can chain best and how well you play the class very secondary to skill at this one feature. I have never liked it. But - and this is important - none of these games were FFXI and maybe my bias is misguided.


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 17, 2018 7:08 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 17, 2018 7:50 PM PDT

    I appreciate you chiming in Dorotea.  I didn't mention this but FFXI did feature a beastmaster class that thrived in a solo environment.  I remember seeing plenty of beastmasters out in the world and being a little jealous that they were capable of adventuring in dangerous areas all by themselves.  One of the issues with the class was that it wasn't really great for grouping (I can't remember why, maybe their pet shared XP) and so if you were playing one, you would most likely be playing by yourself.  In any event, you could change classes in FFXI by visiting your house.  If you were in the mood to solo then you could try your hand with this class ... otherwise, you would be one of the many players that were completely reliant on others when it came to achieving meaningful progression.

    I'm not trying to knock on solo play at all ... FFXI had the best solo play I have ever seen in an MMO but it's mostly because of how the "progression" was reversed.  You didn't start off soloing and mature into a person that could play in groups.  Everybody started off as a group reliant player early on and it wasn't until later on after you achieved higher levels and earned meaningful gear that you could actually go out and do some cool things by yourself.  You wouldn't be able to kill at-level content (unless you were a beastmaster) but you could navigate "some" of the stuff in the tier below your level (10 levels = tier) if you were well versed in the area and came prepared with consumables.  

    @Pilch  --  from what I can remember, the chains went up to 5 as well.  I think they eventually expanded upon this number and things got a little crazy.  You are correct in saying that groups wouldn't really make a big deal out of getting the higher chains because of the stakes at play.  If you were trying to focus on XP, retaining what you had was significantly more important than accumulating more.  Good old fashioned loss aversion.  That said, I really enjoyed having that extra layer of risk vs reward when I played.  I have spent countless hours grinding in various MMO's over the years and FFXI stands apart from any other game by a large margin.  I have experienced the "sweet spot" for grinding in other games that basically revolves around managing resources and keeping up a high pace of action but it's always a fall-asleep-in-your-chair type of experience.  When it comes to grinding XP for progression I think it's okay to add a "game mechanic" that offers consistent and compelling risk vs reward scenarios.

    @Raidan  --  I would definitely agree that XP restoral should be limited to no more than 50%.  I think it's important to have a minimum loss of XP for each and every death regardless of whether you are rezzed or retrieve your corpse.  I think somewhere in the range of a 5-7% loss would be fair.  I have heard many stories about the naked corpse runs in EQ and while some people certainly have their good memories, there are plenty of others who resented them.  My biggest gripe with naked corpse runs is that I feel content should be balanced around the idea of us wearing our best gear.  It shouldn't be possible for players to go on a naked corpse run if they died in a dangerous place.

    There were obviously mechanics put in place that allowed individual players to sneak around and circumvent content in order to drag (or summon) corpses to the zoneline and I'm not a fan of that either.  I understand that a lot of people are drawn to the player interdependence that was a by-product of corpse runs but it doesn't really sound all that fun or exciting.  To me, it feels more like a "timeout"  --  your gear is held hostage and now you need other people to bail you out of the bad situation you were in.  I am a fan of being reliant on other players but not to the point where their abilities/keys can be viewed as a gating mechanism to our gear.  If someone trains my group and a couple members rage quit for the night, I should be able to continue playing and work off that XP somewhere else rather than feeling 100% obligated to return to my corpse.

    I mentioned that I am intrigued by the idea of our corpses having decaying XP attached to them ... I think this would serve as a great incentive for players to work together and make an attempt to recover corpses whenever possible.  At the same time, they won't be damned if it doesn't happen.  We already know that we won't suffer permanent item loss in Pantheon (according to the FAQ) so what exactly happens to our corpses?  Do they stay there forever?  If they rot, is our gear and inventory going to be automagically sent to our mailbox?  That sounds like a bonus for apathy because someone could literally decide that they won't log in again until their loot is returned to them.  Most players probably won't do this because they want to continue playing the game but if the game holds all of your equipment hostage until you perform action X while also having a built-in safety net that will return it to you after a period of time, sometimes not playing will be viewed as the path of least resistance.  That sounds horrible in my opinion.

    Finally, I wanted to touch on this comment.  "As an aside, I'd rather have less features that lessen the time to achieve max level than more."  The implementation of XP chains does not have to speed up the leveling process.  This is a common misconception.  Adding XP chains can actually slow the overall leveling speed down if balanced properly.  As a quick example, imagine VR saying that they envision the average time to max level being 1,000 hours.  Then they add the XP chain feature but reduce overall XP by 25% to compensate.  You can earn that 25% back if (big if) you make the most of the XP chain feature but that shouldn't always be possible.  There is a reason why getting chain #4's and 5's felt so awesome ... the game was balanced so incredibly well that they were truly difficult to pull off.

    It gave players something to strive for that was both attainable and out of reach at the same time ... it really just came down to how efficient your group was and what kind of risks they were willing to take.  This is one area where "playing a video game" trumps immersion or any other world feature I can think of.  The emergent gameplay that is a direct by-product of this feature delivers "meaningful and engaging group mechanics/combat" on a silver platter.  Adding the element of time as a "difficulty variable" is both really simple and highly effective at the same time.  You create a sense of urgency that opens up windows of opportunity for a type of team-focused and cooperative play that otherwise isn't available.  It's a big reason why multi-boxing for XP was really rare overall.  (I never saw it once.)

    @Nephele  --  I appreciate your insight and breaking things down a bit more.  I agree with everything you said.  I have great memories of seeing all of those different things work together in harmony and would really enjoy having an experience like that again in the future.  I think the biggest reason why I ended up writing a novel is because there were a lot of different factors and variables that culminated in the final experience.  You can't just slap something like XP Chains onto an MMO and expect it to work.  That said, I have done my best to illustrate why I feel a feature like that belongs in a game like this and how it aligns (IMO) with the majority of game tenets.

    It's way too early to implement something like this now (game balance needs to be mostly in place for it to work in the first place) so it's more of something that I think we should take a look at down the road assuming all of the other contributing elements are in-tact.  I hope the journey to max level is going to feel meaningful and memorable in this game and when I reminisce on what that kind of journey felt like in previous experiences, there was one that stood out from the rest.  I really just want leveling up to be challenging and engaging rather than a glorified time-sink.  Grinding XP is so incredibly monotonous and boring in most games.  If it isn't killing mobs then it's cycling through quests.  I want to be engaged and attentive while I level and the only way that's going to happen is if the game pushes back a bit.  Risk vs reward is paramount and XP should always be considered a precious resource.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 17, 2018 9:46 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:09 PM PDT

    Given my "separate but inferior" approach and your explanation that maybe "solo viability should be extremely limited" didn't mean *quite* what I took it to mean we may not be enormously far apart.

    There are people that feel that there should be almost no solo play - that group-centric should be read as group-only. This is one of my hot button issues - I tend to be quick to attempt to point out the countervailing considerations.

    Their view is not totally irrational - even separate but inferior solo play drains people away from groups and makes it harder to get groups. Of course I understand this.

    But I feel as explained in detail above that it is far better for the game's survival to include people that prefer solo play as valued customers and then encourage them to group via an unbalanced playing field. If they still won't group - well nothing would have worked and the availability of solo play doesn't remove them from the universe of available groupmates - they never were in that universe. But their money supports the game. I have yet to meet anyone on this forum that believes that an idealogically pure game that fails is good for any of us though reasonably people can disagree with my opinion that drawing in people that may solo most of the time is good for a group-centric game.


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 17, 2018 8:12 PM PDT
    • 510 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:14 PM PDT

    The problem I have with a "mostly grouping" title is that there really are two main types of players out there.  There are those that love to quest.  They enjoy the scenery and the lore of the world.  They will do what they can to stack up on quests and complete them all at the same time if possible (but it is never possible).  They actually WILL repeat some quests a few times - but never hundreds of times in mind altering tedium.  They stop to smell the roses.  The other player is the guy that joins a great group and sits there and grinds away on the same handful of mobs for two straight levels.  Then they pick up and move on to the next set of mobs and do the same thing for the next few levels.  let's face it - four hours of grouping is a LOT easier and far more rewarding than questing.  This is too bad IMHO.  Someone that is questing for 4 hours should get the same sort of return as someone who sits and grinds.  If anything, grinding should give diminising returns on the XP.    Nothing makes me stop playing a title more than watching a group sit there and grind and hit max level 2 days after launch.  I would like to see a Time algorythm that controls XP gain to an extent.  Max out the XP gain over a certain amount of time by killing mobs and you get less and less until you hit zero XP rewards for killing them.  If those people want to then go and quest for XP, thatsd fine.  If they decide to take a little time off and trasdeskill for tradeskill XP, thats fine too.  If they want to sit there and continue to grind on mobs but without any XP - let them.  Maybe they were after loot anyways.  Regardless, I think there needs to be an artificial way of limiting speed leveling through grinding on the same damned 5 mobs for countless hours.  These instant max levels are the single worst thing for any title.

    • 3852 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:34 PM PDT

    I am the first type of player and I have repeated quests dozens of times on different characters. Maybe not hundreds.

    I *like* quests. 

    I do *not* like to grind.

    When I discuss group versus solo my hope is that there will be quests that require a group and their will be quests that do not. I consider grinding a last resort.

    I am almost tempted to misquote Salvar Hardin (not looking up the spelling) from Asimov's Foundation books. "Grinding is the last resort of the incompetent".

    But that isn't really true its more a matter of play style than ability. Plus - more important - it wouldn't be nice.

    • 303 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:36 PM PDT

    @Nephretiti I'm biased in this because I do love grinding. Solo or in group, depending on my mood. I can enjoy questing and stuff too but generally I care very little about story or lore in video games.

    One example which probably sounds boring to somebody who doesn't enjoy grinding is when I decided to acquire exalted with a faction in vanilla wow called cenarion circle. I had figured out that the fastest way I could gain reputation completely solo was to accept a repeatable quest chain's first quest, run 2 minutes, turn it in, abandon it and then go back and do it all over. The item I had to turn in had a 3 minute cooldown so I basically had to do it in 3 minute bursts. I haven't really calculated this before so forgive me if my math is all off but I believe I was Friendly so it would've been 6000+9000+21000 reputation I required, I got 25 reputation every 3 minutes so it would've taken 72 hours (I did 36k/25x3/60)? I didn't do that in one sitting of course but every sitting, after a couple of hours, I'd be in an almost trance-like state. It was very relaxing, no thoughts or anything. I look back on that grind fondly. Of course it wasn't mechanically difficult but it required patience and it taught me to be more patient even after it was done, I think.

    I'd be very sad if I couldn't approach an RPG in that way, in fact its the biggest reason I play them at all. I really like to drone away and watch my silly numbers increase. I absolutely love repetitive methods in a semi-religious way.

     

    • 2756 posts
    September 18, 2018 3:20 AM PDT

    Avaen said:

    I particularly do not like the concept of EXP chains, especially in a game like Pantheon where it would break tenet #10 (I think one of the most important tenets and a big reason why we're all here). I get the point you're trying to make between chains but this mechanic would completely alter the mood of the game where every encounter becomes a fight against time and resource management (to a much higher degree). It reminds me of timed mythics in WoW and I despised them! I dislike anything that's timed really. To me it feels gimmicky and un-immersive and "game-ifies" an MMO world. I want to live and breathe in the world, not have anxiety all night long because everyone wants to keep pushing all night and every night to get bonuses.

    Everyone would most likely expect you to be 100% optimal and healers would get a lot of the blame because these sorts of mechanics usually fall on healer's mana. I've seen this story before and I personally do not wish it to be in Pantheon on a normal, regular grouping basis. I believe there could be better challenges/rewards than blowing out your mana pool to see how many mobs you can down. I guess it just doesn't feel like Pantheon to me. 

    Whilst I like the *concept* of XP chains I absolutely would not want the time/effeciency pressure they bring. One thing I've hated in every MMO where it happened (which was all of them, but some more than others) was groups that push push push push you to be fast and only use your most efficient abilities and stop chatting and stop talking to NPCs and stop exploring, etc.

    Sometimes the whole efficiency thing can be a fun challenge, but if you put a prime XP-gain game mechanic around it, it will rule every group and session you have.

    Yuck.

    • 1479 posts
    September 18, 2018 3:28 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Avaen said:

    I particularly do not like the concept of EXP chains, especially in a game like Pantheon where it would break tenet #10 (I think one of the most important tenets and a big reason why we're all here). I get the point you're trying to make between chains but this mechanic would completely alter the mood of the game where every encounter becomes a fight against time and resource management (to a much higher degree). It reminds me of timed mythics in WoW and I despised them! I dislike anything that's timed really. To me it feels gimmicky and un-immersive and "game-ifies" an MMO world. I want to live and breathe in the world, not have anxiety all night long because everyone wants to keep pushing all night and every night to get bonuses.

    Everyone would most likely expect you to be 100% optimal and healers would get a lot of the blame because these sorts of mechanics usually fall on healer's mana. I've seen this story before and I personally do not wish it to be in Pantheon on a normal, regular grouping basis. I believe there could be better challenges/rewards than blowing out your mana pool to see how many mobs you can down. I guess it just doesn't feel like Pantheon to me. 

    Whilst I like the *concept* of XP chains I absolutely would not want the time/effeciency pressure they bring. One thing I've hated in every MMO where it happened (which was all of them, but some more than others) was groups that push push push push you to be fast and only use your most efficient abilities and stop chatting and stop talking to NPCs and stop exploring, etc.

    Sometimes the whole efficiency thing can be a fun challenge, but if you put a prime XP-gain game mechanic around it, it will rule every group and session you have.

    Yuck.

     

    Can't say much more, group efficiency is already a reward by itself, pushing it to a non linear benefit will only make socialization worse and caveat the loss if the group isn't pushing enough. I know OneAd is really enticed to this mechanic, but I think it's fitting other genre of games but not pantheon, likely more oriental grindy MMO's where the journey is less important than the goal.

     

    If your group is 20% more efficient or quick, you should get 20% more exp/gold/loots but not jump to 30/50/70% because you broke a specific treshold.

    • 646 posts
    September 18, 2018 6:55 AM PDT

    dorotea said:I am the first type of player and I have repeated quests dozens of times on different characters. Maybe not hundreds.

    I *like* quests. 

    I do *not* like to grind.

    When I discuss group versus solo my hope is that there will be quests that require a group and their will be quests that do not. I consider grinding a last resort.

    This is me, 100%! I love questing, even if it's quests I've repeated countless times before on other characters. But mob grinding? That is quite possibly the most boring method of leveling that I could possibly imagine.

    I also agree with the above on XP chains. The rush dynamic and pressure they would cause would, I think, run counter to a couple of VR's core tenets.

    • 1584 posts
    September 18, 2018 6:57 AM PDT

    Avaen said:

    I particularly do not like the concept of EXP chains, especially in a game like Pantheon where it would break tenet #10 (I think one of the most important tenets and a big reason why we're all here). I get the point you're trying to make between chains but this mechanic would completely alter the mood of the game where every encounter becomes a fight against time and resource management (to a much higher degree). It reminds me of timed mythics in WoW and I despised them! I dislike anything that's timed really. To me it feels gimmicky and un-immersive and "game-ifies" an MMO world. I want to live and breathe in the world, not have anxiety all night long because everyone wants to keep pushing all night and every night to get bonuses.

    Everyone would most likely expect you to be 100% optimal and healers would get a lot of the blame because these sorts of mechanics usually fall on healer's mana. I've seen this story before and I personally do not wish it to be in Pantheon on a normal, regular grouping basis. I believe there could be better challenges/rewards than blowing out your mana pool to see how many mobs you can down. I guess it just doesn't feel like Pantheon to me. 

    I agree though I do agree with a lot of what 1AD7 said but just from gameplay I've seen if they fought an even con mob it took a but of time for then to kill him and the mana it took on the healing side wasn't no small amount, granted that could of been becuase of bad gear or something but if you truly want the game to remain challenging than the healing should always be using a good chunk of there mana in every encounter or you could simply chain pull 24/7 and gain a huge amount of exp like you do on eq and they don't even have xp chains.

    • 844 posts
    September 18, 2018 7:22 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I'd like to preface my post with a list of the stated game tenets that I associate with this topic:

    1)  An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable.

    2)  A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

    3)  A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.

    4)  A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.

    5)  An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.

    6)  An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.

    7)  A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.

    8)  A requirement that classes have identities.  No single player should be able to do everything on their own.

    9)  An understanding that player involvement is required for progression.  All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences.  Positive actions should be rewarded.  Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

    10)  A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.

    11)  Content is king.

    Gonna disagree with everything. Most is just pablum anyway.

    Molding player experience into what you want is anathema to a sandbox.

    A 'Sandbox' for good or bad leads to the most creative and rewarding gameplay.

    • 1785 posts
    September 18, 2018 7:46 AM PDT

    I have limited time this morning so I can only post a portion of what I'd like to add to the discussion right now.  But up above I broke onead's post down into 5 areas that I think he's talking about:

    1) Rate and mechanics of XP gain (and loss)

    2) Encounter design

    3) Area design

    4) Group synergies

    5) Components of challenging combat

     

    I'd like to talk about these in reverse order.

    Components of challenging combat

    What makes combat challenging?  I think we all agree that it's not just about mobs having more hit points or doing more damage.  I tried to think about some statements that might explain it.

    - It's really encounters that need to be challenging, not individual mobs.  An encounter might be a single mob or it might be multiple mobs that are close to each other

    - Individual mobs should have unique abilities and characteristics that players must adapt their strategy to.  Ideally, no fight should just be "tank n' spank"

    - When an encounter contains multiple mobs, the abilities of those mobs should support each other in some way, adding an additional tactical element.

    - Each fight should involve both strategic choices (preparing correctly) and tactical choices (reacting correctly).  For example, using a blunt weapon against something that's resistant to slashing is a strategic choice.  Stunning the mob to prevent it from casting a spell is a tactical choice.  A defensive example:  Bumping up your fire resist to better mitigate against an attack is a strategic choice.  Swapping who's tanking because the tank just got hit with a vulnerability debuff is a tactical choice.

    - Fights should take long enough to complete that there's room for choices to happen and to matter.

    - There should be enough randomness involved in the different aspects of combat that players may need to react differently depending on how things are progressing.  Critical hits, spell fizzles, misses, and so on all add an element of chance.  Howeve, these elements should work both for and against players.

    - There should be enough variety and randomness in the different attacks and abilities that mobs use that players can still be surprised if they're not paying attention.  If every orc shaman always casts the same spells at the same time in the same way, then players will quickly learn the best method to counter that and simply perform it by rote every time they fight an orc shaman.

     

    I'll try to get more up about the other stuff tonight when I get done with work.  Like I said in my post above, I think it's important to think about all these areas separately, and really flesh them out - but they do work together to build the overall experience for players which is what 1AD7 was getting at in his post.

     

    • 3237 posts
    September 18, 2018 8:20 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Gonna disagree with everything. Most is just pablum anyway.

    Molding player experience into what you want is anathema to a sandbox.

    A 'Sandbox' for good or bad leads to the most creative and rewarding gameplay.

    Here is a quote from Brad:
    "Bottom line though:  A pure sandbox isn't really a game.  Pantheon is definitely influenced by our desire to head in the sandbox direction, but a pure sandbox is not what we're looking for.  Rather, while you shouldn't feel you're on rails, going through quest hubs, forced to follow 1-2 paths, etc, there's still Pantheon the game that sits within the sandbox foundation.  Then, by making sure we have such a foundation, we can not just vertically add content (expansions, new regions to explore, new classes and races, etc.) but also horizontally begin to offer advancement paths beyond your typical adventure focus."

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/181/sandbox-vs-themepark

    Adding a time-to-kill variable to combat shouldn't be considered a themepark in and of itself.  If you want to talk about theme parks then let's consider the quest hubs we have seen in pretty much every game over the last decade.  I see a lot of trigger words like "anxiety/pressure/rush"  --  I guess it's just a matter of perspective.  I enjoy active combat.  This doesn't mean I want hack'n'slash twitch combat ... it just means that I appreciate having more things to think about and windows of opportunity to play around.  FFXI had molasses slow combat (watch a video) but still managed to keep players engaged and attentive to what was going on.  The bottom line for me is that I want leveling up to be challenging in Pantheon rather than just time consuming.  I want XP to be considered a precious resource.

    It may seem like my entire post is centered around the idea of adding XP chains to Pantheon.  It isn't about that.  To be honest, I think Nephele offered the most constructive feedback I have seen on this topic in a long time.  Boring/Monotonous grinding is a systemic issue in MMO's.  Many developers strayed away from oldschool grinding and instead went down the path of quest hubs.  I think it's important to add a little spice and flair to everyday combat so that killing things to level up can actually feel fun and rewarding.  If that means we need a "video game mechanic" then so be it.  I feel pretty strongly that there are alot of "gamers" out there that VR should be going after.  If you want to attract these players then you need to showcase meaningful risk vs reward.

    Adding a TTK variable to experience gain is going to lead to emergent gameplay.  Some people will say it's contrived, artificial, or gimmicky.  I feel like "levels" in general are all of those things.  Somehow it's acceptable to think that when you achieve 1,440,250 XP you "ding" and become more powerful.  The mobs you were killing merely seconds ago are suddenly weaker and worth less XP.  Blah blah blah.  Leveling up is a video game mechanic.  I think we should embrace that and instill a sense of difficulty and excitement into the art of XP accumulation.  When I see people saying stuff like they would feel compelled to rush and push push push push push I can't help but think that they have never played a game where XP was truly meaningful.

    Just because the bonus was available didn't mean that every player in the world was consumed by it's very existence.  No ... XP was considered a precious resource and loss aversion was in-tact.  The opportunity to take risks was there but it's not like people were always going to pull that 4'th or 5'th mob no matter the circumstances.  If you're trying to be objective and focus on XP gain then you obviously need to avoid death at all costs.  Players would definitely try to perform at a high level and push their limits but it never got to the point where they would blatantly disregard the impact of a potential death.  That isn't how things work when XP is truly considered a precious resource.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 18, 2018 8:43 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 18, 2018 8:54 AM PDT

    I tend to think of sandbox as very good - it gives flexibility and promotes replayability. Different times through you can do different things.

    I tend to think of themepark as far too limited - always on rails as Brad said doing the same things in the same order each time through. Far worse for people that do not play a lot of characters - very limited flexibility to play it *your* way rather than following the script and being the world saving hero even if you do not *want* to be the world saving hero.

    But is pure themepark worse than pure sandbox - maybe not. Take some of the elder scrolls single player games. You could go almost anywhere and do almost anything since enemy level was adjusted to your own. You weren't funneled into one or two zones where characters your level could survive. Somewhat to my surprise I found that frustrating and unrewarding. When a level 5 and a level 50 had the same opportunities and the same challenges everything felt meaningless and unrewarding. 

    If there are no "rails" at all and you are sent into a large and formless world with "Go forth and slay, my child" what do you have other than endless grinding?

    If there is nothing *but* rails what are you but an automoton going semi-mindlessly through a pre-scriped experience?

    So I agree with Brad on this.

    So how do you have some "rails" but not too constricting? The most common answer I see on these forums is to have much of the progress to level-cap come from grinding (although I can think of at least one person that might be happy if it could come from crafting). Personally I prefer quests but only if they give so little experience per quest that it takes a long time to get to level-cap by questing. Many who object to quests correctly cite the insane rapidity of leveling they provide in certain MMOs but that is in truth an objection to outrageously liberal leveling scales than to the concept of quests.

    Can you have thousands of quests so you can quest to level-cap very slowly but without grinding? Of course - but it takes far more time and effort and is not the way VR plans to go. Pantheon will have quests but will have more grinding than has been normal for many years. Okay - to me as a dedicated questor this falls under "you cannot make an omelet without breaking eggs". 

    So how do you make grinding interesting for those that love to grind. Answer - you don't need to do a thing.

    So how do you make it intersting for Naunet and myself and others of our mindset?

    1. Throw in some quest-like elements. If a NPC asks me to kill 100 pigs and gives a reward equal to the kill xp from 2 pigs does it make leveling too fast? Not really this is a trivial reward. But it gives a feeling of structure, of purpose, to those of us that prefer such. I am not killing pigs to grind I am killing pigs to feed a village or protect its crops. Fooling myself? Maybe but that is the core of a good MMO. Doesn't take that much programming to add the NPC with the 100 or 1,000 pig quest.

    2. Give some overarching and perhaps meaningless reward. A title for killing 10,000 pigs. Dorotea - Bane of Swine. Who wouldn't kill for real-time weeks for such a reward. A combat bonus - because of your great experience killing 10,000 porkers you are better at it and now do 1% more damage to pigs.

    3. Dorotea you are rambling - get on-topic. Maam yes maam. Things that make grinding more interesting. When you kill pigs for hours while trying not to die you will be doing the same things over and over and over and over with little or no risk. I suppose every 10,000th pig could spawn as Harold the Horrible Hog and wipe the group (or if the developers are kinder, drop a special flavored bacon prized by cooks) but perhaps some form of xp chain is a better way to liven things up. Though I still fear that it could produce groups limited to those most adept in chaining.

     

    • 483 posts
    September 18, 2018 10:44 AM PDT

    Again with the XP chain thing, I'm pretty sure they already said they're not going to implement it, anyway, I just don't see it as a good thing for the game, it will create an environment where everytime you don't proc the XP chain you'll feel like you just lost potential XP, because there's a system reminding you that you lost it ( or in this case didn't gain it) it will eventually lead to grouping with slower players feeling extra punishing, because every time you don't get the XP chain you'll be reminded of that loss, making it feel extra shitty. 

    Besides that, there's already a "passive XP chain" if you pull faster/play more efficiently you'll get passivly more experience. instead of seeing XP chain as a mob by mob xp reward that can break if you don't kill the mobs in time, see it as a session by session thing, where you try to be as effective as possible during the entire gaming session so that at the end of it you'll have killed 20-30 more mobs than a group that was slower/innefective.