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Community Debate - MMORPG Etiquette

    • 9115 posts
    September 17, 2018 3:59 AM PDT
    Community Debate - MMORPG Etiquette - What are some of your make or break etiquette rules for grouping up in a social game - Bonus - What are some etiquette rules you feel OK breaking within a group or social situation in an MMORPG? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
    • 432 posts
    September 17, 2018 4:39 AM PDT

    I tried to remember things that annoyed me most strongly .

    N°1 was when I am LFG and see a guy 2 or 3 boxing for a long time and when I ask to join precising that he can keep the loot he says "No, I don't need more ." Hard to be more antisocial than that .

    N°2 was when I get a tell asking to join a group when I am on the other side of the world and when I arrive, the GL disbands the group saying that he can't find a healer or that he was invited to another group .To the same category belongs the case when a key player (tank, healer, CC) leaves the group without prior notice what generally leads to the end of the group . The GL is like a ship captain - he should be the last to leave the boat .

    N°3 was when there are no explicit loot rules and/or when the GL or always the same player loots everything . This leads sooner or later to somebody blowing a fuse .

    N°4 was when somebody (often the same person) was always starting discussions about politics or his RL opinions on ooc or other general channel . But here blacklisting helped fast .

    These are make or break for me and I do not see others even if there are a few more annoying but less important issues (swearing, calling people noobs , babbling about RL)

    As these things annoy me , by definition I would never feel OK with doing them myself .


    This post was edited by Deadshade at September 17, 2018 4:40 AM PDT
    • 259 posts
    September 17, 2018 5:59 AM PDT

    My biggest Make or Break Etiquette Rule for groups would be Ninja Looting.

    I can't stand it when someone grabs an item that isn't tradeable before it's rolled on.

    Bonus: Live by the rules, be nice and share so everyone can gain experience and loot evenly.

    • 3852 posts
    September 17, 2018 6:06 AM PDT

    I generally agree with Deadshade.

    Someone leaving on short notice unless it is a real emergency "GTG bye" gets on my do not group list quickly.

    Someone leaving because their guild suddenly decides to do something gets on my list even faster - if you join a group and other people are relying on you just tell the guild you have a commitment. Members of guilds that expect you to break those commitments have real trouble getting groups except with each other.

    Someone looting while the fight is still going on - that is usually a no-no. Someone that races around trying to beat group members to almost all the loot even if the fight is over. Someone rolling "need" when they do not need the item or when it is a cash-equivilent that everyone should roll greed on (if the rolling rules are clear).

    Someone not staying with the group. If you want to see every room and slowly read every word any npc says but everyone else is just trying to finish before they run out of time suck it up and come back later in a different group that isn't in a hurry.Or if the group is going slowly and you are impatient - stay with the group and next time ask for a group doing a speed-run.

    • 2756 posts
    September 17, 2018 6:52 AM PDT

    Pretty much everything I can think of breaks down to the same rules that *should* govern everyone's interactions online: -

    Behave like you know you should if you were in the room together.

    People these days seem to think being online means it's ok to act like a sociopath.

    I suppose one that might be an edge case that not everyone will agree with is: Don't assume people want to use voice chat.  If voice chat becomes de facto, then people who don't want to use it will become outcast.

    One for role-players out there: Role-playing a character is not an excuse for *you* to be an arse to other *players*.  No, your character being an evil rogue does not mean ninja looting is ok and your noble knight being constantly insulting and snobby is still unpleasant even when it's in character, etc.

    • 1785 posts
    September 17, 2018 7:06 AM PDT

    I might not be awake enough for this thread yet this morning but I'll try:

    1) Loot distribution - the group leader needs to be up front and transparent about how they're doing it, and players need to respect each other and make an effort to fairly distribute, rather than being greedy

    2) Setting expectations about what the group is there for - are we going after a certain item or quest objective?  Just working on experience?

    3) Respecting everyone else in the group - making sure they're ready before you run off to the next room or start to pull, etc.

    4) Not telling other people how to play their classes, not criticizing them for how they're playing.

    5) Not demanding everyone use voice chat.  Offering is ok, demanding is not.

    6) Not criticizing other people in the group for their gear or ability choices.

    7) Communicating with the group - letting the group know you'll have to leave in advance instead of just ghosting, that sort of thing.

    • 1921 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:01 AM PDT

    The social toxicity factor of all the mechanics that let people be jerks is why they were removed/replaced in modern MMOs.

    Specifically?  Personal Loot, Mult-Tag Quest Credit, and communication methods (beyond /say and /shout). It's why there are things like /ooc, global channels, guild channels, groupsay, voice chat, /ignore, /anon, and /tells. 
    Once you can't affect my quest credit by your actions, and you can't affect my loot by your actions?  My stress level goes to zero.  Do what you want, at least you can't negatively affect the gameplay I am paying for.
    In EQReborn, because loot is FFA ( in every group I've been in so far ) people just pick whatever they want.  Some people take a lot, some people take nothing.  It's... jarring.  Why?  Because people just want the corpses gone, they're not beeing greedy, it's just that there would be absolutely nothing different if everything autolooted and everyone had personal loot.  Which is why... wait for it.. games moved to that mechanic! (whaaaaaat)  One less thing that gets in the way, and who wants to see a dozen corpses littering the landscape?

    All of which Pantheon would benefit from, imho, if a design goal is to have a less socially toxic game than EQ1 is/was.  However, if it's a design goal to have a game that is just as or more socially toxic than EQ1, change nothing, you're on the right path, VR. :)

    But to answer the question specifically, the etiquette will be exactly what the game permits.  If the game permits it, people will do it.  etiquette is not a factor, anymore.  The idea that people would either abstain from being toxic or voluntarily choose not to be toxic, when being toxic offers a tangible advantage is laughable, in 2018+, imo.

    • 1479 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:07 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    The social toxicity factor of all the mechanics that let people be jerks is why they were removed/replaced in modern MMOs.

    Specifically?  Personal Loot, Mult-Tag Quest Credit, and communication methods (beyond /say and /shout). It's why there are things like /ooc, global channels, guild channels, groupsay, voice chat, /ignore, /anon, and /tells. 
    Once you can't affect my quest credit by your actions, and you can't affect my loot by your actions?  My stress level goes to zero.  Do what you want, at least you can't negatively affect the gameplay I am paying for.
    In EQReborn, because loot is FFA ( in every group I've been in so far ) people just pick whatever they want.  Some people take a lot, some people take nothing.  It's... jarring.  Why?  Because people just want the corpses gone, they're not beeing greedy, it's just that there would be absolutely nothing different if everything autolooted and everyone had personal loot.  Which is why... wait for it.. games moved to that mechanic! (whaaaaaat)  One less thing that gets in the way, and who wants to see a dozen corpses littering the landscape?

    All of which Pantheon would benefit from, imho, if a design goal is to have a less socially toxic game than EQ1 is/was.  However, if it's a design goal to have a game that is just as or more socially toxic than EQ1, change nothing, you're on the right path, VR. :)

    But to answer the question specifically, the etiquette will be exactly what the game permits.  If the game permits it, people will do it.  etiquette is not a factor, anymore.  The idea that people would either abstain from being toxic or voluntarily choose not to be toxic, when being toxic offers a tangible advantage is laughable, in 2018+, imo.

     

    You strangely sounds like you accept to follow a moral code only if you and everyone is forced to. You realize no moral code has any worth if it's not a deliberate choice ?

    I mean, if you are honest in real life, sometimes you will have the shorter end of the stick, but does that mean you should never be honest in case you loose something over dishonest people ? That's precisely what morale is : Choosing not to do something even if it does hinder yourself over unmoral people.

    • 96 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:16 AM PDT

    I always try to treat others as I would like to be treated. In an MMO that usually means,

    - If I know I have only got 30 minutes left, and I'm in a party, I will search for a replacement inbetween pulls so that by the time I get off the replacement is at the camp.

    - I won't critize a party member for playing their class poorly.

    - I will stick to whatever the loot arrangment was determined to be at the start of the group.

    • 200 posts
    September 17, 2018 9:11 AM PDT
    My group etiquette basically boils down to simply being a decent and considerate human being. I’ve never seen a reason to behave differently. I prefer to group with people who behave pretty much the same way. While maybe a bit vague, it obviously excludes ninja looting, rude commenting on people’s performance and generally being a jerk. I usually won’t group with someone like that again.
    • 303 posts
    September 17, 2018 9:20 AM PDT

    I'm not really aware of any rules but I know that if I get invited to a group and then its all silent, I try to strike up a conversation. If my group members won't have a conversation then I feel a bitt weird and usually leave the group with some lame excuse :P

    • 1584 posts
    September 17, 2018 9:27 AM PDT

    Ninja looting is huge for me, nothing worse than have a grp wide effort going into a fight and a greedy punk ### ################## ####### ### ## ######### and than leaves while laughing at you and making you feel like the idiot.

    • 78 posts
    September 17, 2018 10:05 AM PDT
    People that act like the group makeup has to be "perfect" I've always been one that will gladly take on additional challenge if I can find some people that are good people that I actually want to group with. If you're spamming "Lf3m must have gearscore of 555+" when it isn't necessary welcome to my ignore list.
    • 2419 posts
    September 17, 2018 10:15 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - MMORPG Etiquette - What are some of your make or break etiquette rules for grouping up in a social game - Bonus - What are some etiquette rules you feel OK breaking within a group or social situation in an MMORPG? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    For joining a group, none, really.  I'm quite flexible when it comes to etiquette as I can adept to whatever is available.

     

    • 646 posts
    September 17, 2018 10:38 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I might not be awake enough for this thread yet this morning but I'll try:

    1) Loot distribution - the group leader needs to be up front and transparent about how they're doing it, and players need to respect each other and make an effort to fairly distribute, rather than being greedy

    2) Setting expectations about what the group is there for - are we going after a certain item or quest objective?  Just working on experience?

    3) Respecting everyone else in the group - making sure they're ready before you run off to the next room or start to pull, etc.

    4) Not telling other people how to play their classes, not criticizing them for how they're playing.

    5) Not demanding everyone use voice chat.  Offering is ok, demanding is not.

    6) Not criticizing other people in the group for their gear or ability choices.

    7) Communicating with the group - letting the group know you'll have to leave in advance instead of just ghosting, that sort of thing.

    This pretty much covers it. Kind of boils down to the Golden Rule, really. Just treat each other with the same respect you would want others to give you.

    • 3852 posts
    September 17, 2018 11:22 AM PDT

    >Not telling other people how to play their classes, not criticizing them for how they're playing.<

    I have no problem with giving someone advice if it is done politely and NOT followed-up on unless the player shows that he or she appreciates the advice. Unless it  is causing a serious problem.

    Telling someone they could do 10% more damage with a better rotation is not something to be pushed  unless advice is welcomed. And starting with "There is a trick for doing more damage - interested?" is a lot better than "Did you buy that character on ebay last night. You have no clue how to play it".

    • 303 posts
    September 17, 2018 11:59 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Unless it is causing a serious problem.

    Thing is that if a group is doing poorly, a sizable part of the community is going to look for anything to fend the blame off themselves. This includes and very often is represented by accusing somebody else of "causing a serious problem". If you ever played a MOBA you know exactly what I'm talking about. I wish I could just say "but Pantheon community is mature" but that isn't true, older people do the same thing just as frequently.

    • 89 posts
    September 17, 2018 2:43 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I might not be awake enough for this thread yet this morning but I'll try:

    1) Loot distribution - the group leader needs to be up front and transparent about how they're doing it, and players need to respect each other and make an effort to fairly distribute, rather than being greedy

    2) Setting expectations about what the group is there for - are we going after a certain item or quest objective?  Just working on experience?

    3) Respecting everyone else in the group - making sure they're ready before you run off to the next room or start to pull, etc.

    4) Not telling other people how to play their classes, not criticizing them for how they're playing.

    5) Not demanding everyone use voice chat.  Offering is ok, demanding is not.

    6) Not criticizing other people in the group for their gear or ability choices.

    7) Communicating with the group - letting the group know you'll have to leave in advance instead of just ghosting, that sort of thing.

     

    All of this.  Also, a pet peeve of mine is getting random invites (guild, party, whatever) without any sort of previous interaction.  If you can't be bothered to ask first I'm never, ever, going to agree.  If I see an invite the instant I log on it better be for a previously scheduled raid...

    • 839 posts
    September 17, 2018 4:29 PM PDT
    People who verbally attack a player in the group (usually a newbie, or someone new to the tactics you're playing) for not being perfect at their class really pisses me off. Be constructive with good advice, keep quiet or leave the group. I'd rather lose a good player who is being a d-head who thinks their too elite than lose a newbie who is willing to learn with some good guidance. Cant stand an overactive ego
    • 1860 posts
    September 17, 2018 4:44 PM PDT

    Someone saying they will join but either being far away or not being able to get to where the group is in a short time.  Please don't say you will join if you are 20+ mins away.  Get to the location first before saying you want to join. 

    Leaving a group without trying to get a replacement for yourself.  I guess that is more of a reputation thing for joining future groups than it is in joining a current group since it has to do with after you have already grouped.

    I know it was mentioned already but, breaking mez is an example of a minimum lvl of competence more than it is etiquette.  I don't expect everyone in a pug to be an expert but there has to be a minimum skill lvl or you end up on the "do not group with" list.  Same with many other aspects of the game.  It's not only about mezs but that is a good example.


    This post was edited by philo at September 17, 2018 5:25 PM PDT
    • 999 posts
    September 17, 2018 7:21 PM PDT

    Pretty much everyone addressed the main points above, but I'll add one more, I'm not a huge roleplayer by any means, but I'd rather not group with Deez Nutz.

    • 510 posts
    September 17, 2018 7:57 PM PDT

    I have always been a big fan of two things from EQ2.  The whole "Free to play YOUR way" campaign and the "Play Nice Rules".  One thing I cannot stand is gear elitism.  You join a group and someone immediately starts to complaining that you are a clueless noob because you don't even have any of the latest raid gear.  Even though you're only doing group material at the moment.  In EQ I got my Thurgadin Prayer Shawl pretty early on.  But someone complained because they had never heard of it and only assumed I was useless because I didn't have raid gear.  I said I was sorry for wasting his time, left the group, and started solo'ing next to them.  The same mobs.  And I was more efficient at it (charm soloing enchanter).  Naturally they /yelled and /OOCd complaining about it until someone just simply asked me to please go.  I left immediately.  Another form of elitism is when someone sees that your level X (say 25) and that since your only level 25 you clearly don't have a clue as how to play the game at all.  Even though you're on your sixth alt.  And the final form of elitism is the sort where another player assumes there is only one way to play a class.  I was a pulling Enchanter very early on in EQ.  People refused to accept that I could pull.  On several occasions I was told that I was not pulling and to sit down and KEI when told.  Note, there was no monk - they were tank-pulling.  I was quite tickled once when a fine group broke up after a long session and the other players in the group finally looked at the tank.  He was a cleric.  We had played two solid hours and this player was tanking as a cleric with no adverse effects on us at all.  People should be willing to try different things. 

    • 1921 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:25 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You strangely sounds like you accept to follow a moral code only if you and everyone is forced to. You realize no moral code has any worth if it's not a deliberate choice ?

    I mean, if you are honest in real life, sometimes you will have the shorter end of the stick, but does that mean you should never be honest in case you loose something over dishonest people ? That's precisely what morale is : Choosing not to do something even if it does hinder yourself over unmoral people.

    Unfortunately, this is a video game, and paying customers will screw each other over for any/no reason, if history is any indication.  I'm not conflating real-life moral decisions with those made in a competitive online video game.  These are not the same thing.  People that will simply come into a zone, train everyone from 12:01am to 12:59am to ensure they have the entire zone for themselves while all the GMs are sleeping, and then farm that zone with 100 players for the next 10 hours and RMT all the loot likely wouldn't even consider anything remotely resembling actual criminal activity IRL.  Why not?  Because one is a video game for entertainment where there are ~no consequences and one is criminal activity, and there is a chasm between them, with respect to morality.

    I stand by my statement that etiquette is gone, and all the horrible players will do everything the game permits until the game no longer permits it.  That's how it is and has been, in every MMO I have ever played since M59 in 1995.  All VR is going to discover is just how toxic their player base can be if they have game mechanics that permit them to be toxic.   Which will be great social experiment to watch again, for the .. what? 20th time? smh.  I just hope I get to enjoy some of the game before the designed social toxicity drives away the paying target demographic.

    • 752 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:30 PM PDT
    I will not allow intentional training of a group. I will not allow kill stealing or camp stealing. I will not allow overtly vulger and racist/sexist text/speech. Basically, if you are an A****** i will kick you out or leave.
    • 752 posts
    September 17, 2018 8:34 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You strangely sounds like you accept to follow a moral code only if you and everyone is forced to. You realize no moral code has any worth if it's not a deliberate choice ?

    I mean, if you are honest in real life, sometimes you will have the shorter end of the stick, but does that mean you should never be honest in case you loose something over dishonest people ? That's precisely what morale is : Choosing not to do something even if it does hinder yourself over unmoral people.

    Unfortunately, this is a video game, and paying customers will screw each other over for any/no reason, if history is any indication.  I'm not conflating real-life moral decisions with those made in a competitive online video game.  These are not the same thing.  People that will simply come into a zone, train everyone from 12:01am to 12:59am to ensure they have the entire zone for themselves while all the GMs are sleeping, and then farm that zone with 100 players for the next 10 hours and RMT all the loot likely wouldn't even consider anything remotely resembling actual criminal activity IRL.  Why not?  Because one is a video game for entertainment where there are ~no consequences and one is criminal activity, and there is a chasm between them, with respect to morality.

    I stand by my statement that etiquette is gone, and all the horrible players will do everything the game permits until the game no longer permits it.  That's how it is and has been, in every MMO I have ever played since M59 in 1995.  All VR is going to discover is just how toxic their player base can be if they have game mechanics that permit them to be toxic.   Which will be great social experiment to watch again, for the .. what? 20th time? smh.  I just hope I get to enjoy some of the game before the designed social toxicity drives away the paying target demographic.

    We can stop this spread of disease as a community. Hold Fast.