Vandraad said:Fulton said:Rather than restrict playtime, just make some servers that are labeled "Casual", for more casual players to gravitate to.
And who else gravitates to those servers? Hardcore guilds and players specifically because they will have a much easier time dominating content because of all the casual players. You won't see any difference in a casual server to that of a hardcore server when it comes to competing for content. Besides, your definition of casual will not be the same as someone elses so many people on the server will still play more often and take a more dedicated approach than you.
Yes, and I originally put that there should be some notice attached that anyone guilds found to be taking advantage of the casual server status would be moved or penalized, but chose to leave that for sake of arguments over "We pay the same sub they pay" yada yada yada :P
But all in all, I don't really care either way. I consider myself a casual player, and if others have the time to play 24/7, so be it, as long as they aren't directly keeping me from playing then it's all good. I have no interest in raiding, I find it rather boring for very little reward, unless you have the time to do it repeatedly, which I don't so to each their own.
If someone enjoys picking flowers, thats their choice, if someone enjoys killing 1 mob then socializing for 10 minutes, thats their choice, if someone likes grouping up with 100 other players to kill a boss mob for 3 pcs of loot, thats their choice.
Only server choices I think there should be is PvP and PvE.
Melamber said:The advantage I see is it opens up the game to people who don’t want to compete with players who can dedicate vastly more play time to the game. Often limited play time players are disadvantaged with the in game economy and also end game content, especially if it’s heavily contested. By limiting playtime you open up the content to more players are no single guild can dominate all the available content in the limited time. Also it’s likely those players who will put in 10+ hours a day won’t even play on this server at all, in effect keeping the player base separated.
This outcome will not happen. Hardcore players not only devote more playtime, but also usually play more coordinated and more efficiently.
All that would happen is a hardcore guild from another server would set aside 3 hours a day to grind out on this server and control the endgame for a long time.
It's not going to separate the player base, it's just going to give hardcores a new challenge.
Melamber said:The advantage I see is it opens up the game to people who don’t want to compete with players who can dedicate vastly more play time to the game. Often limited play time players are disadvantaged with the in game economy and also end game content, especially if it’s heavily contested. By limiting playtime you open up the content to more players are no single guild can dominate all the available content in the limited time. Also it’s likely those players who will put in 10+ hours a day won’t even play on this server at all, in effect keeping the player base separated.
All this would do is heavily disadvantage anyone who would join the server after the first few weeks it launched, to an increasing degree as each day passes. Late comers would be entirely unable to bridge the gap and would actually find themselves far worse off in the economy than on a normal/traditional server.
Kastor said:Lol . No.
Thank you for your valuable input to the discussion. /sarcasm off
And aside from not offering a reason why you think it is a bad idea, was it necessary to throw in the "LOL"? His idea has merit whether you agree with it or not. To suggest his idea is baseless and laughable reflects poorly on you. I sincerely hope we don't end up with a community of people like this guy who can't speak kindly and maturely to others about something they may disagree with.
First let me say thank you to most of the responders here. Most of the feedback was constructive and I appreciate the suggestions made.
I think the idea of an experience limited server is interesting. I worry that a lot of the issues that affect limited play time players aren’t addressed by setting an experience cap. The server would still be flooded with loot, making it hard to make financial headway and you may as well give up on trade skills (unless you are simply gathering to sell).
I agree that ideally this server would not be required if the developers implement systems to negate the common pitfalls, over farming and endgame content blocking. Historically this has not been handled very well but I do have faith that VR has plans for this.
The catch up issue is a problem I didn’t consider with my original post, but honestly this is true for normal servers too and is ironically pretty much the issue limited play time players suffer from ALL THE TIME! I expect hardcore players might well alt on a server where progressing is more sedate and also the server population will also have people playing alts so over time there will be players are all level ranges. Also as the server only allows for a certain number of hours of play the population could in theory be larger than normal servers (though limits would still need to be in place to stop overpopulation on weekends).
My original idea wasn’t there to force players who want to play more off but rather to give an environment to those that know in advance that their playtime is limited. I agree this server only works when the community is large enough to support it, I don’t want to “damage” the game by slicing up the player base.
Regarding pay to win, I never liked the idea. Even though I’m a person who could afford to buy advantages in a lot of the games I play I have never done so. The idea is greed based one, developers alter the game design to enforce it to the detriment of the game and I am happy to hear VR (or any developer) speak out against it.
I disagree that limited play time players aren’t themselves “hardcore”. They may well want to be competitive normally, but it’s not an option they have because the content is on farm by the time they get there. I’d welcome completing with players from hardcore guilds who alt on the server. Heck I might end up playing WITH them more. Skill does not necessarily have that much to do with time investment. Sure, playing more means you have more opportunity to become experienced but it’s not the only factor at play.
Added bonus, less chance of gold farmers on this server.
I still believe people's expectations need to change. Whatever playtime structure you fall into now (versus a game or a time when you had more), there will be others who were in the time slot you were previously in that can now play more or less than you. Just enjoy the game for whatever time you have. Also, just realize you may not be the "best." And, if you like or want a virtual world, that feeling that you can always be better or someone is better should be a good thing. I don't want to feel that I "beat the game." Regardless if players pass you by, hopefully Pantheon will have a healthy enough population to always keep players within your leveling range. If not, that's an entirely worse issue.
Anyway, a final thought of how I think it would make matters worse even though I understand why you propose it: Player A has 30 minutes left, B - 45, C - 20, D - 2 hrs, E - 90, and F - 50. Oops, drop player C. Group looking for 1 more - at least 60 minutes of playtime left!
Raidan said:Anyway, a final thought of how I think it would make matters worse even though I understand why you propose it: Player A has 30 minutes left, B - 45, C - 20, D - 2 hrs, E - 90, and F - 50. Oops, drop player C. Group looking for 1 more - at least 60 minutes of playtime left!
The implication is that most people playing on this server aren't pushing the threshold to the max each and every day. If they are then they should be on a normal server. Also if there is a choice to go into negative time (up to a certain point) but it will come out of your future allocation. So if your in a great group you can play a little longer that day or finish up that CR or wrap up that trade.
It wouldn't be a bad thing, probably, to have a server like this should Pantheon become large enough. Surely it would find its own niche then. I don't think it would be friendly at all to new players, though, because of what Porygon outlined.
In addition, and this sort of bothers me in a way, I think the idea of "having to compete" isn't a realistic outlook and it bothers me because its so very pervasive in the MMO community at large. If you're felling raid bosses left and right, there's still nothing stopping me from enjoying my time at level 23. I'm also not accusing OP of this but I'll speculate that in general it has to do with jealousy or not being able to accept one isn't at the top since video games are games and awake a need to win-mentality.
I do believe this attitude has damaged the whole genre, that we do have thinks like trivial leveling, catch-up mechanics and what I might call "wellfare epics" only because of sentiments like this.
Melamber said:I disagree that limited play time players aren’t themselves “hardcore”. They may well want to be competitive normally, but it’s not an option they have because the content is on farm by the time they get there. I’d welcome completing with players from hardcore guilds who alt on the server. Heck I might end up playing WITH them more. Skill does not necessarily have that much to do with time investment. Sure, playing more means you have more opportunity to become experienced but it’s not the only factor at play.
This is problematic as well. Again, this isn't exactly directed at you but at the idea in general: It's true that practice isn't the sole reason for skill, there are things like talent and degree of efficient practice as well, I suppose. I acknowledge those things but to me its extremely clear that those who practice the most are going to be the best, regardless of how uniquely clever others might regard themselves. Its an almost insulting notion to think that people who put all they have into being the best at something (whatever it is, sports or maybe a music instrument) are only good because they have time to bum around and that anyone can compete fine with 3 hours a day.
So yea. I made some assumptions in these responses, I have no idea what your personal reasons are and maybe I'm jaded but I think the things that bothered me there are likely common. I see a lot of comments about people who feel they don't have time to compete and I always have a nagging feeling these are the reasons.
@Melamber
Now you're just moving the goalposts though and making a server much more complicated than it needs to be. There's no way to predict how people would behave. I'd argue that a finite amount of time would make people want to powerlevel more with the feeling of limited time. There will be numerous other contingencies you can't plan or reprecussions the feeling of a finite amount of time creates: less people deciding to craft, travel, trade, etc.
Anyway - like I said, I understand why you'd want it - I'll also be limited in my playtime - I just don't think it's necessary. I'd rather recommend joining a roleplay type server with a mature guild/group of friends thats willing to start alts if they had more playtime and just enjoy the journey while others are experiencing burnout.
A complete random tanget though this thread made me think of: Sierra online (Imagination Network? INN I think) for Shadows of Yserbius even in the early to mid 90s had packages you could pay for that were like $40 dollars for 30 hours per month or unlimited for $130/month. I think there were more tiers too... can't remember, but that's the terror that this idea invokes in me, that some developer would get greedy to offer tiered time limited subscription packages haha. I do know that I paid for the cheapest package with a finite amount of time and I always craved to play more when the time ran out.
My thoughts on a time limited server are as such.
This would be more suited to bleeding edge hardcore players who can always play to their max efficiency and have a set group who can always be online together. These are the players who can maximize their playtime to get as much experience and progression as they can in the limited play time they are allowed.
This will also almost eliminate a lot of the other aspects of the game on this server such as crafting and trading, since players will feel driven to maximize their play time on that server, and every minute that's spent in town crafting is a minute lost that they can't be gaining experience for that week.
VR has said that they want to create an atmosphere where people can socialize and such while they play. But any downtime is going to make people antsy and you'll hear people saying things like "Less chat, More splat! pull the next mob... I only have 45 more minutes this week and I want to get to 60% of my level before I run out"
So I think that this idea will result in the exact opposite of what the OP intends. Instead of the casual players with limited play time ending up on this server, I think it would only attract the truely hardcore top end players who want the challenge of time limits on progression. All the true casuals with limited play time will play on the open servers with no time limits since there is where they can be crafters and have solo play and do little quests that are fun but don't take a lot of time and don't give tons of experience. Without feeling like they are falling behind because they aren't always pushing the experience line in a limited time the server allows.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:My thoughts on a time limited server are as such.
This would be more suited to bleeding edge hardcore players who can always play to their max efficiency and have a set group who can always be online together. These are the players who can maximize their playtime to get as much experience and progression as they can in the limited play time they are allowed.
This will also almost eliminate a lot of the other aspects of the game on this server such as crafting and trading, since players will feel driven to maximize their play time on that server, and every minute that's spent in town crafting is a minute lost that they can't be gaining experience for that week.
VR has said that they want to create an atmosphere where people can socialize and such while they play. But any downtime is going to make people antsy and you'll hear people saying things like "Less chat, More splat! pull the next mob... I only have 45 more minutes this week and I want to get to 60% of my level before I run out"
So I think that this idea will result in the exact opposite of what the OP intends. Instead of the casual players with limited play time ending up on this server, I think it would only attract the truely hardcore top end players who want the challenge of time limits on progression. All the true casuals with limited play time will play on the open servers with no time limits since there is where they can be crafters and have solo play and do little quests that are fun but don't take a lot of time and don't give tons of experience. Without feeling like they are falling behind because they aren't always pushing the experience line in a limited time the server allows.
I'll admit I'm surprised that this appears to appeal so much to hard core players as well. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but it wasn't the goal originally.
If you only have 3 hours to play a night on a normal server or a server where time is limited why would that alter how you spend those hours? The limiting factor is the time a player has, more than the limits the server has. But it's nice to know if I spend 3 hours crafting that my skill will have some meaning as opposed to on a normal server where plenty of people are max skill. If you are always using up every second then you’re probably playing enough for a normal server.
I do think that a person who can only play 6 hours a week is going to want to get something out of those hours. That won't change if they play on a normal server. But if most people he/she sees around him are like him/her then it will be easier to find a group of like minded people.
You are assuming that because I play 6 hours a week I'm "casual". That is incorrect. I play hard and I aim to succeed I just have other obligations that prevent me from doing it 10+ hours a day. But what I expect is a server like this would attract players which are like minded in regards to their approach to the game, due to their real life obligations. They know they won't have more than 20 hours a week at most to play.
While I don't discount the idea. I think another notion could solve this problem. If RL busy players form a community and choose a server they will maximize their opportunities to play with other busy players. If they make it known which server they are picking ahead of time heavy players will more likely self-segregate to other servers because a) they want to play with others with a similar style and b) the large population of busy people would crowd the server more than the non busy people servers.
As an analog, imagine a player only speaks Sanskrit. It makes sense he would want to play with other people that could speak Sanskrit. So Sanskrit speakers get together and all join one specific server and form a sub community.
While a few 16 hour a day players might go on the server to feel 'leet' the real competitors would not want to be a big fish in a little pond, so to speak.
Personally, I would not prefer this because some of the 10 hour a week players are REALLY good players. The guild I am in has been called a core guild, which means we allow all types into the guild as long as they are good people/guildies. However, while noone must join in on raids, we do expect those that join raids, particularly progression raids, to be serious about it. (With the caveat that this is how we have been and it is not my guild.)
I would hate to miss out on playing with those good part time players.
Melamber the problem with the comments of your idea on this thread is that most posters analyse it from a point of view of a player who does NOT and will NOT play consistently less than , say 15 or 20 hours a week aned who feels all the time the pressure to achieve a maximum of things (XP, level, loot) during the time he has .
So, of course, they then don't understand it and don't even imagine that there are people who play MMORPGs in a completely different style than they do . They seem to think that everyone feels the pressure to level fast, to fight all the time , to be frustrated when there are 45 min missing to get those 10% XP more, to get that loot fast etc like they do . In reality there is a very large fraction of players who don't feel the time and competition pressure at all . Players who don't like soloing and boxing, who will log in to chat a bit, do some crafting and exploring , to advance perhaps a quest or to join a group for an hour or 2 . People who have not their eyes fixed on the XP bar and who don't care if they get 5 % of a level in a week or 20 % . People who don't rush anywhere and who just play a game to relax and spend an hour or 2 in a virtual world . Let us call them "casuals" for simplicity even if this term may be misinterpreted and "casual" doesn't mean "unskilled" or "unsuccessful" .
For these players a 20 hours limit per week is no constraint at all . Most would actually never reach it . So once that is acknowledged that there is a fraction of players which is irrelevant for this type of servers and they couldn't cope with a limited time because they feel an achievement pressure all the time, there is only ONE relevant question which must be asked : "Why would the players who play with a completely different mindset prefer a limited time server to a non limited time server ?"
I have already answered this question but I will recapitulate what the main motivations would be .
1) They can play/group with their friends for a long time . On a standard server if a group or a Guild levels fast, a "casual" has only 2 choices . Either he plays in the style he likes and he falls behind and can no more group with his friends/Guild or he does what he hates and starts to rush to keep the pace . Neither solution is satisfying for him . On a limited time server he will find a majority of players who play with the same style as he does . An obvious advantage .
2) The server is newbie friendly for "casuals" for a long time . If a "casual" joins the game 8 months or 1 year after the release, the low level zones will be ghost towns on unlimited servers while on a limited time server there will still be low-mid level players the newbie can group with . An obvious advantage .
3) The server allows to enjoy the content for a long time . This is trivially true because the average level of the server would increase much slower than the average level on an unlimited server . An obvious advantage . Of course the rushing kind of players doesn't care about it but as we have already seen , a limited time server is not there for them . Even if some of this kind could try out the limited time server, who cares ? They'd reach max level faster than the vast majority and then ? Log in only to do a few raids and be frustrated every week that 20 hours are not enough ?
Finally your idea is basically an idea of a new segmentation of the game servers which can be added to the classical segmentation - PvE, PvP, RP . I am convinced that a limited time server would be a success for the majority of the "casual" population and I know many friends who would play on it (me included) .
Two points to add - neither relevant to whether I would or would not play on a server like this but both, I think, relevant to the OP's ideas.
1. Would it help or hurt to make the time-allowed cap per character rather than per account. It would encourage altoholics with a lot of time and no compelling urge to get to maximum level fast to play on the server. Maybe you don't want this kind of person on the server but then again maybe making the server more popular is a plus.
It would alleviate the concern that someone could unexpectedly get extra time but be locked out from playing. Their primary character might have used up the time but the alts might have plenty. Maybe crafting alts or maybe just other classes to fool around with.
Encouraging alts would seem quite consistant with the OP's objective of slowing the race to level cap. Any time spent on a lower level character by definition slows the progress of the higher level character.
I read the proposed server rules as imposing a per-account time limit but I am not sure that is the way to go. Then again this isn't a server designed to appeal to me - I have far more time than most.
2. The point reased by a few of us that there might not be much interest in this - and that diluting the player base too far among different rukesets might not be good.
Should VR conduct a series of polls before making any decision. One here on these forums. Some through other channels (massively overpowered conducts polls regularly maybe they could be talked into a poll on this topic even if not limited to Pantheon - it would give us more publicity if our name was mentioned) to catch potential customers.
Along the lines of: If a new MMO was being released and you could play on one and only one server - would you choose a normal rules server, a roleplaying server, a pvp server, a server with a ruleset designed for casual players such as a maximum number of hours playable per character per week, or a server designed for more hardcore players with rules making the game more difficult and challenging. Apologies to anyone whose pet idea I accidentally (or not accidentally) left out.
With a second question asking essentially the same for a *second* server people would play on with one option "I would not play on more than one server".
I think a better way to implement something like this would be that you get an XP bonus the longer a character is not played, say up to a week. That XP bonus then slowly drains down over say a few hours of playtime.
This would do two things: 1) Give players who can rarely play a little boost when they can play and, 2) Give players an incentive to play more than one character, which I think is a really good thing for the health of the lower level game.
And due to the bonus not maxing out until a week or so goes by, and only lasting a few hours, it's not really going to throw of the balance of the game. The players using this are still going to level slower in terms of days played than players who play constantly.
urgatorbait said:Kastor said:Lol . No.
Thank you for your valuable input to the discussion. /sarcasm off
And aside from not offering a reason why you think it is a bad idea, was it necessary to throw in the "LOL"? His idea has merit whether you agree with it or not. To suggest his idea is baseless and laughable reflects poorly on you. I sincerely hope we don't end up with a community of people like this guy who can't speak kindly and maturely to others about something they may disagree with.
Bad idea is bad. It won't turn out the way you want it to. There will be a ton more griefers and elitists. Max exp groups and kill stealing etc. But thanks for the insults and assuming my character.
Kastor said:Bad idea is bad. It won't turn out the way you want it to. There will be a ton more griefers and elitists. Max exp groups and kill stealing etc. But thanks for the insults and assuming my character.
The behaviour your talking about comes down the community, not the server type. If these things exist they will exist everywhere and that is a problem all servers will have to deal with. Do you have any comments that are relevant to the suggestion I proposed?
bigdogchris said:I think a better way to implement something like this would be that you get an XP bonus the longer a character is not played, say up to a week. That XP bonus then slowly drains down over say a few hours of playtime.
This would do two things: 1) Give players who can rarely play a little boost when they can play and, 2) Give players an incentive to play more than one character, which I think is a really good thing for the health of the lower level game.
And due to the bonus not maxing out until a week or so goes by, and only lasting a few hours, it's not really going to throw of the balance of the game. The players using this are still going to level slower in terms of days played than players who play constantly.
This a good approach if there aren't enough players to support multiple server / server types. It allows for limited play time players to catch up a little.
But the suggestion I am making would give limited play time players an environment to experience the fullness of the game to greater degree than they ever could on a normal server. It would also slow down the speed at which content is consumed. Camps for certain items that would become obsolete once the unlimited play time players farm past them would still continue to have relevance for a long time. This means you have a portion of the player base consuming content slower and quiet possibly playing for longer and contributing to overall health of the game by subscribing for longer.
Melamber said:Kastor said:Bad idea is bad. It won't turn out the way you want it to. There will be a ton more griefers and elitists. Max exp groups and kill stealing etc. But thanks for the insults and assuming my character.
The behaviour your talking about comes down the community, not the server type. If these things exist they will exist everywhere and that is a problem all servers will have to deal with. Do you have any comments that are relevant to the suggestion I proposed?
Yes, maybe you should go back and read everyone responding to your reddit post.