I think one of the biggest controversies we see in discussions about Pantheon is whether or not the game will cater to hardcore players or casual players. The answer to me is cater to both. This just requires looking at game mechanics differently than what we usually see in a game.
So how does a game cater to both hardcore and casual players? I'll start with issues brought up in a recent thread about old school gaming.
Selling items. Should Pantheon have automated auctions or require live interaction? A way to include both is to have an automated auction house buying and selling while at the same time adding in a fee for convienence. Players can log onto the auction system and offer their goods at a booth and there is no fee for using that player provided service. A captcha like system requiring the player to read a sentence and then answer a question can be used each hour to avoid being kicked out of the auction interface. Players who want to interact are rewarded while others who prefer to just buy and sell can do so at a cost.
Travel. This one can also cater to both types of people. I think most will agree that any fast travel unlocks would require finding that location manually before being allowed to use it. There should be a system of teleport hubs and automated horse/griffin/boat routes. Requiring people to run back and forth from one side of the map to the other is just tedious design. At the same time the teleport hubs should be on a timer system to allow a market for player provided teleports. Additionally the player teleport locations should be placed closer to the popular assembly locations while the system teleports and transportation hubs should require a small amount of running to hit the popular areas. Example would be system travel to city gates while player travel is to dungeon entrances.
Game time. How much time should be considered a normal playing session? Over the years a consistent answer I've seen for this question has been two hours. Then the question becomes what can be done in that two hours. If players spend 30 minutes LFG or 30 minutes travelling at the front end and another 30 minutes travelling at the back end then they only end up with an hour of actual play time. It's another reason why I think we need system travel to cut down on the tedium of losing play time. Even with two hours being an average play time there still needs to be content for people who have less time to be logged in. I think this is where instanced content is the answer. Having instanced dungeons or challenges that allow players to have fun and make some progress while not providing the best rewards is a good compromise. Someone can do an instanced dungeon with three people and get a decent item that isn't as good as the same item but from the non-instanced dungeon.
Corpse runs. Graveyards are an amazing stress reducer and I think they should be a staple of every MMO simply because they make mistakes bearable. That being said I think there is a very good argument for having corpse runs still be an integral part of the gaming experience. A good compromise is to allow a graveyard to be instantly used once every 36 hours or so and then there's a 60 minute timer before it can be used again. So one mistake doesn't ruin a gaming session but the player has to be careful afterwards or they will need to do a corpse run or do something non-combat until the timer expires. Having a 10 minute debuff timer after using the graveyard and having an additional 10% exp penalty as well can provide incentive to do the corpse run while not being so punishing that players are afraid to play the game.
Rare spawn mobs. This is always a big contention point because people who want to feel elite in a game need some kind of yardstick by which to measure their success. Being the first to complete a goal isn't enough because there needs to be some way to show others who is at a higher level of the game. Traditionally this is done by bottlenecking higher end gear or quest content so that only a few can complete it until the next expansion comes out. Once new content is released the elite players move on allowing more casual players the chance to get items that were previously fought over. The problem with this idea is that the majority of your players are unable to participate in content which pushes people away. A better way of designing content is to ensure all quests can be spawned by the person doing the quest and have no requirement for a rare spawn mob. Quests are what really drive a game so bottlenecking quests is a good way to kill the interest of your player base. To provide more than just rare gear items the rare spawn mobs need to have unique, and limited, cosmetic items. Mounts, wardrobe, housing, or banner items can all be used to help elite players show they are elite while still allowing casual players the ability to complete quests and occasionally get a cool item.
Flags/keys/gear checks. Using flags or keys is a way to ensure players are forced to participate in different content. The problem with these mechanisms is too often they create a lot of work for guilds to ensure new members are flagged and keyed only to watch those members move on later. The keys do differentiate the hardcore players from the casuals be creating a gear check or time check system. A way to compromise on this is automatically awarding keys for old content once new material is released. Casual players will still have to get keyed for new content if they want to experience it sooner, but guilds will not have to spend endless cycles going through old content in order to raid specific areas.
UI/Macros. The UI needs to be easy to customize in game without third party intervention. Macros should be allowed for things like attack combinations, healing, and other mundane tasks which require a lot of repitition but not actual skill. Utility abilities and cures would not be able to be macroed however. This would require flagging skills to help prevent automated responses during a fight but still allowing commonly used abilities to not be so tedious. The devs just have to ask if an ability requires some thought in order to be used or if it's just another dot to be added with the rest of the attacks. If skill is needed then flag it so it can't be macroed, otherwise just add it to the rotation becuase clicking six different attack buttons over and over is just boring.
Housing. Housing should be available to everyone. ArcheAge made a huge mistake in having limited housing space because it drove so many players away. Having a limited area for bigger houses is also a bad idea because it can restrict access to players who want to work for a bigger area. Instead every player should be able to get the same sized plot and then build their house as they see fit. Players who invest more in housing can have a bigger house at the start but casual players can eventually obtain similar results. Have limited time decorations or paint to allow a sense of accomplishment for those who were able to get to certain construction points before others.
I'll stop there but I think I've shown how a game can provide a fun experience for both casual and hardcore players. Both groups need to feel rewarded and valued and this can be done by cosmetic, time, and cost options. It just takes a bit more work on the dev team to think about compromise solutions and add in some extra code.
I appreciate all the thought and effort that you've put into this post. You make some good points, but largely you and I see most of this from different perspectives. I dont want to argue all these points, but I would like to address our main difference of opinion.
For travel, I like the idea that travel requires a good bit of effort. In most games you are just 2 minutes from anywhere (IE. call to home, portal to Town A, horse to Fortress F). No matter how largue your world actually is, it never feels grand or involved. There should be a couple of shortcuts around the world, but not the mass web of shortcuts we see in your typical MMOs. I especially like this concept as an altoholic. "My ogre is out in the middle of the desert, but I do have a Dark Myr in that area."
Likewise that "Traveling there" and "Traveling back" time that you mentioned, I dont mind these. Its a difference between living in the world as opposed to playing on the world. Just my two cents.
Queued said:I appreciate all the thought and effort that you've put into this post. You make some good points, but largely you and I see most of this from different perspectives. I dont want to argue all these points, but I would like to address our main difference of opinion.
For travel, I like the idea that travel requires a good bit of effort. In most games you are just 2 minutes from anywhere (IE. call to home, portal to Town A, horse to Fortress F). No matter how largue your world actually is, it never feels grand or involved. There should be a couple of shortcuts around the world, but not the mass web of shortcuts we see in your typical MMOs. I especially like this concept as an altoholic. "My ogre is out in the middle of the desert, but I do have a Dark Myr in that area."
Likewise that "Traveling there" and "Traveling back" time that you mentioned, I dont mind these. Its a difference between living in the world as opposed to playing on the world. Just my two cents.
Nothing stops you from traveling the slow way if you so choose. There is no requirement to use a fast travel system. However, if it's not included then only people who agree with you will play the game for any length of time.
Ya, I'm not going to take the time to address each part but we already know that many of your suggestions are not how this game will be. We are well past the point of making changes to major systems. At this point it is about bug fixes, balance adjustments and tweaks
philo said:Ya, I'm not going to take the time to address each part but we already know that many of your suggestions are not how this game will be. We are well past the point of making changes to major systems. At this point it is about bug fixes, balance adjustments and tweaks
The game is still sitting around the Alpha stage... pretty sure there is plenty of time to make changes to core items based on feedback.
@Ruar - Definately kudos for putting in the effort. But like others, I just flatly disagree. What you're describing is already available en masse in the MMO marketplace. Many of us are disallusioned with the current marketplace because there isnt a game we are looking for. The game you describe is quite a pace from what we seek.
No fault on you for wanting it, but you have a ton of choices. We dont.
As to casual or hardcore...there will be ruleset servers. Pvp and PVE will be separate..and separately balanced, this has been mentioned a few times. As for the fast travel etc. That has been mentioned a few times as well, since 2014.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#0
Faq 19.0 Pantheon will have meaningful travel -- players will need to travel to new areas and face the dangers that come with such a journey. That said, there will be spells like 'Call of the Hero', which summons an ally to your side if they are grouped with you.
There will also be a caravan-like system, where a player can log out whilst in a group and then log back in and still be with the group, even if that group has moved. There will also be additional ways to help groups come together and stay together. But it's also important to note that this doesn't mean people will be able to travel as they please, to anywhere in the world, at a whim; especially if they haven't travelled there by foot or horse at least once (e.g. players will need to unlock certain regions by travelling there first). More details to come as we get closer to beta and launch. - end quote
@Ruar I really think it would be helpful if you read through the FAQ to see what's planned etc...some of which won't be seen til Beta from what was mentioned. Pretty sure tweaks and so on are ongoing with the testing thus far. And pretty sure some systems are the way the Devs see fit according to what their overall vision of the game is.
Things will change as feedback comes in from those actually testing the game, and if it fits with what is planned over all. Everyone can give feedback as a tester..and many, many opinions and wants are posted on these forums, for the Devs' perusal, doesn't mean to say that the Devs will implement opinions or wants...there are thousands of them since early 2014 when these forums opened. It has to fit with the plans. :)
Cana
Ruar said:philo said:Ya, I'm not going to take the time to address each part but we already know that many of your suggestions are not how this game will be. We are well past the point of making changes to major systems. At this point it is about bug fixes, balance adjustments and tweaks
The game is still sitting around the Alpha stage... pretty sure there is plenty of time to make changes to core items based on feedback.
Pre-alpha stage...Alpha to come later, then Beta.
Feyshtey said:@Ruar - Definately kudos for putting in the effort. But like others, I just flatly disagree. What you're describing is already available en masse in the MMO marketplace. Many of us are disallusioned with the current marketplace because there isnt a game we are looking for. The game you describe is quite a pace from what we seek.
No fault on you for wanting it, but you have a ton of choices. We dont.
+1. I pledged to Pantheon because they are creating a game different from every other MMO out there. That and I believe in Brad McQuaid & Chris Perkins and their vision. Go watch every interview and stream that involves these two about Pantheon.
Ruar said:I think one of the biggest controversies we see in discussions about Pantheon is whether or not the game will cater to hardcore players or casual players. The answer to me is cater to both.
So where do you make the argument for both? You just listed a bunch of things catering to the casual player.
Ruar said:philo said:Ya, I'm not going to take the time to address each part but we already know that many of your suggestions are not how this game will be. We are well past the point of making changes to major systems. At this point it is about bug fixes, balance adjustments and tweaks
The game is still sitting around the Alpha stage... pretty sure there is plenty of time to make changes to core items based on feedback.
You obviously havent been following closely for long. The major systems were set years ago.
Edit: just for clarity, here is a quote from Kils that is directly referencing the con system but it speaks generally about all the major systems.
This is from early 2017:
Kilsin said:
That is pretty much it, we have settled on lots of these decisions over the last 3 years, we started these forums back in FEB 2014 and have been collecting info and taking feedback and suggestions ever since, to the point that we have already pretty much decided on most things and need to work on them some more and see them through to completion so we can test them. Which makes it hard but more reason why it was important to get in early on a game like this in development.
We will still take feedback and suggestions and ask for specific feedback on certain things but for big mechanics like this, it has already been decided and we need to test it before we even consider changing anything.
This type of thing comes up a lot from newer people. Also, don't think a lot still can't be adjusted because it can but you address some pretty major systems and we are well past the point of much of what you are referencing Ruar. We are still in the early development stage so changes can, and will, be made but you have to realize the direction the game has been going for the last 4+ years. Think more adjustments than overhauls.
What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Yes, I've spent some money on the game already knowing they intend it to be challenging in a way games aren't now a days. At the same time that doesn't mean I expect a game that is full of tedious design simply for the sake of being tedious.
Read the responses on Facebook to the questions that are posed to the community and you'll be able to see just how many want a game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. People who want the challenging fights of EQ, the fun of watching a character slowly progress, while expecting some of the modern conviences that don't require an hour of game time spent travelling. They just don't come to the forums because it's a rather toxic atmosphere where people don't actually have discussions and instead just browbeat anyoe who has a different opinion.
This thread is about showing how both groups can enjoy the game without it being all or nothing. Because in the end if the game is only for the hardcore then it will be stagnant with a small player base that has long delays in new content, if any is actually able to be coded.
Ruar said:What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Yes, I've spent some money on the game already knowing they intend it to be challenging in a way games aren't now a days. At the same time that doesn't mean I expect a game that is full of tedious design simply for the sake of being tedious.
Read the responses on Facebook to the questions that are posed to the community and you'll be able to see just how many want a game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. People who want the challenging fights of EQ, the fun of watching a character slowly progress, while expecting some of the modern conviences that don't require an hour of game time spent travelling. They just don't come to the forums because it's a rather toxic atmosphere where people don't actually have discussions and instead just browbeat anyoe who has a different opinion.
This thread is about showing how both groups can enjoy the game without it being all or nothing. Because in the end if the game is only for the hardcore then it will be stagnant with a small player base that has long delays in new content, if any is actually able to be coded.
Casual to me defines as those that don't have time for challenging raids and such ..hard core defines as those willing to do the work and take on the challenges with no handholding involved. So third party apps that tell you how to play the game for instance...won't be a thing. (thank goodness I don't need my screen blocked by apps that are required by the raid leader to "succeed") Skilled play, technique, ability to work with others...strategy all those things appeal to me..
Pantheon will be a "hard core" game...just the same as Everquest was, at the start. No question about that....risk vs reward is definitely wanted by all those that have backed this game to date. Most of us have memories that last from that sort of gaming...more so than anything done in the easy mode games that have proliferated the last decade or so.
Personally games that hand everything to you with no effort, bore me to death...no sense of achievement ..no reward for spending time there (personal satisfaction from having completed something with a group or raid that was difficult and required strategy.) I want that sort of game and that sort of COMMUNITY again...#communitymatters in Pantheon...it is a thing. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Ruar said:What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Yes, I've spent some money on the game already knowing they intend it to be challenging in a way games aren't now a days. At the same time that doesn't mean I expect a game that is full of tedious design simply for the sake of being tedious.
Read the responses on Facebook to the questions that are posed to the community and you'll be able to see just how many want a game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. People who want the challenging fights of EQ, the fun of watching a character slowly progress, while expecting some of the modern conviences that don't require an hour of game time spent travelling. They just don't come to the forums because it's a rather toxic atmosphere where people don't actually have discussions and instead just browbeat anyoe who has a different opinion.
This thread is about showing how both groups can enjoy the game without it being all or nothing. Because in the end if the game is only for the hardcore then it will be stagnant with a small player base that has long delays in new content, if any is actually able to be coded.
Casual to me defines as those that don't have time for challenging raids and such ..hard core defines as those willing to do the work and take on the challenges with no handholding involved. So third party apps that tell you how to play the game for instance...won't be a thing. (thank goodness I don't need my screen blocked by apps that are required by the raid leader to "succeed") Skilled play, technique, ability to work with others...strategy all those things appeal to me..
Pantheon will be a "hard core" game...just the same as Everquest was, at the start. No question about that....risk vs reward is definitely wanted by all those that have backed this game to date. Most of us have memories that last from that sort of gaming...more so than anything done in the easy mode games that have proliferated the last decade or so.
Personally games that hand everything to you with no effort, bore me to death...no sense of achievement ..no reward for spending time there (personal satisfaction from having completed something with a group or raid that was difficult and required strategy.) I want that sort of game and that sort of COMMUNITY again...#communitymatters in Pantheon...it is a thing. :)
Cana
Where in any of my suggestions do I disagree with what you say? Everything I've said goes hand in hand with what you want while at the same time allowing casual players to enjoy the game in a different way. I'm still baffled by the way some people think the game can only be one way.
Kastor said:Feyshtey said:@Ruar - Definately kudos for putting in the effort. But like others, I just flatly disagree. What you're describing is already available en masse in the MMO marketplace. Many of us are disallusioned with the current marketplace because there isnt a game we are looking for. The game you describe is quite a pace from what we seek.
No fault on you for wanting it, but you have a ton of choices. We dont.
+1. I pledged to Pantheon because they are creating a game different from every other MMO out there. That and I believe in Brad McQuaid & Chris Perkins and their vision. Go watch every interview and stream that involves these two about Pantheon.
+ another 1. Those ideas are already dominated in the mmo market. We need something different, so we have more diverse mmorpgs. The more different Pantheon is from WoW/EQ-Live/etc, the better.
Ruar said:CanadinaXegony said:Ruar said:What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Yes, I've spent some money on the game already knowing they intend it to be challenging in a way games aren't now a days. At the same time that doesn't mean I expect a game that is full of tedious design simply for the sake of being tedious.
Read the responses on Facebook to the questions that are posed to the community and you'll be able to see just how many want a game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. People who want the challenging fights of EQ, the fun of watching a character slowly progress, while expecting some of the modern conviences that don't require an hour of game time spent travelling. They just don't come to the forums because it's a rather toxic atmosphere where people don't actually have discussions and instead just browbeat anyoe who has a different opinion.
This thread is about showing how both groups can enjoy the game without it being all or nothing. Because in the end if the game is only for the hardcore then it will be stagnant with a small player base that has long delays in new content, if any is actually able to be coded.
Casual to me defines as those that don't have time for challenging raids and such ..hard core defines as those willing to do the work and take on the challenges with no handholding involved. So third party apps that tell you how to play the game for instance...won't be a thing. (thank goodness I don't need my screen blocked by apps that are required by the raid leader to "succeed") Skilled play, technique, ability to work with others...strategy all those things appeal to me..
Pantheon will be a "hard core" game...just the same as Everquest was, at the start. No question about that....risk vs reward is definitely wanted by all those that have backed this game to date. Most of us have memories that last from that sort of gaming...more so than anything done in the easy mode games that have proliferated the last decade or so.
Personally games that hand everything to you with no effort, bore me to death...no sense of achievement ..no reward for spending time there (personal satisfaction from having completed something with a group or raid that was difficult and required strategy.) I want that sort of game and that sort of COMMUNITY again...#communitymatters in Pantheon...it is a thing. :)
Cana
Where in any of my suggestions do I disagree with what you say? Everything I've said goes hand in hand with what you want while at the same time allowing casual players to enjoy the game in a different way. I'm still baffled by the way some people think the game can only be one way.
Casual players will have to learn the ropes, no matter how casual they are. What part of the game do you think should be casual? I am pretty sure that its a time invested issue, and there casual players can make that choice. Its already been stated that the Devs don't expect people to have to spend more than 2 hours a session ingame, if that's not what they want to do. But they will still have to learn the gameplay...what are you envisioning as casual game play in your interpretation? Things added to the game so its not so hard to do? Remember that this is a Game World being created here. And one other thing, I doubt that the Devs are aiming at millions of players...like certain other games. So they're here to make their game that they envision...not just be a carbon copy of say Rift (with their sparkly barbie horses) or Wow.
Ruar said:Canadina... did you even read the OP or did you simply reply to the title?
I read through all the things you were suggesting..and I would suggest that you read the FAQ to get a clearer picture. The graveyards and other things..you want it to be just like all the other games out there. The ones I refuse to play. lol MOST of your suggestions have been repeatedly discussed over the years, including the bottlenecking on epic quests. The Devs are aware of this issue..have been from the get-go.
CanadinaXegony said:Ruar said:CanadinaXegony said:Ruar said:What I find interesting about these responses is that apparnetly y'all don't realize you are the minority of gamers, yet expect the devs to try to sell a product that only appeals to a few people.
Yes, I've spent some money on the game already knowing they intend it to be challenging in a way games aren't now a days. At the same time that doesn't mean I expect a game that is full of tedious design simply for the sake of being tedious.
Read the responses on Facebook to the questions that are posed to the community and you'll be able to see just how many want a game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. People who want the challenging fights of EQ, the fun of watching a character slowly progress, while expecting some of the modern conviences that don't require an hour of game time spent travelling. They just don't come to the forums because it's a rather toxic atmosphere where people don't actually have discussions and instead just browbeat anyoe who has a different opinion.
This thread is about showing how both groups can enjoy the game without it being all or nothing. Because in the end if the game is only for the hardcore then it will be stagnant with a small player base that has long delays in new content, if any is actually able to be coded.
Casual to me defines as those that don't have time for challenging raids and such ..hard core defines as those willing to do the work and take on the challenges with no handholding involved. So third party apps that tell you how to play the game for instance...won't be a thing. (thank goodness I don't need my screen blocked by apps that are required by the raid leader to "succeed") Skilled play, technique, ability to work with others...strategy all those things appeal to me..
Pantheon will be a "hard core" game...just the same as Everquest was, at the start. No question about that....risk vs reward is definitely wanted by all those that have backed this game to date. Most of us have memories that last from that sort of gaming...more so than anything done in the easy mode games that have proliferated the last decade or so.
Personally games that hand everything to you with no effort, bore me to death...no sense of achievement ..no reward for spending time there (personal satisfaction from having completed something with a group or raid that was difficult and required strategy.) I want that sort of game and that sort of COMMUNITY again...#communitymatters in Pantheon...it is a thing. :)
Cana
Where in any of my suggestions do I disagree with what you say? Everything I've said goes hand in hand with what you want while at the same time allowing casual players to enjoy the game in a different way. I'm still baffled by the way some people think the game can only be one way.
Casual players will have to learn the ropes, no matter how casual they are. What part of the game do you think should be casual? I am pretty sure that its a time invested issue, and there casual players can make that choice. Its already been stated that the Devs don't expect people to have to spend more than 2 hours a session ingame, if that's not what they want to do. But they will still have to learn the gameplay...what are you envisioning as casual game play in your interpretation? Things added to the game so its not so hard to do? Remember that this is a Game World being created here. And one other thing, I doubt that the Devs are aiming at millions of players...like certain other games. So they're here to make their game that they envision...not just be a carbon copy of say Rift (with their sparkly barbie horses) or Wow.
Definitely agree with Cana. Players have to learn the ropes. Less whining, more playing.. that's what I'm looking forward to again. Pantheon streams are looking nice, I'm ready for more :)
I've read the FAQ and other material. I'm also fully aware that things change over time and designers that have one idea in mind might go a different route as time goes on.
And I don't understand why having a graveyard makes a game not hardcore. Timers and other options to make it so death still matters, so corpse runs still matter, while at the same time not requiring someone to spend hours trying to get all the corpses out of Fear. I'm not young anymore and I don't have hours to spend doing corpse runs but at the same time I desire a game with challenging content.
Why does challenging content also have to come with a ton of tedium simply so some players can think of themselves as being better than others. Here's a hint... you aren't a better gamer, you just have more time to spend playing.
Ruar said:I've read the FAQ and other material. I'm also fully aware that things change over time and designers that have one idea in mind might go a different route as time goes on.
And I don't understand why having a graveyard makes a game not hardcore. Timers and other options to make it so death still matters, so corpse runs still matter, while at the same time not requiring someone to spend hours trying to get all the corpses out of Fear. I'm not young anymore and I don't have hours to spend doing corpse runs but at the same time I desire a game with challenging content.
Why does challenging content also have to come with a ton of tedium simply so some players can think of themselves as being better than others. Here's a hint... you aren't a better gamer, you just have more time to spend playing.
Here's a quote for you..tedium = grinding I presume? "Games don't grind, people do." Up to you how much time you spend gaming..absolutely..this is what the Devs have said over and over. Additions to make things easier for certain gamers that "don't have the time" probably won't be a thing. Daily lists of daily quests won't be a thing, like certain other well known games. Most of your time you choose what you want..want to be a Keeper? You have to explore to do that..get that Perception skill up to a level where it is useful, and it makes you useful to a group.
You won't be soloing to level cap. You need help from the rest of us. You will need to up your skills each level..watch the livestreams, you can see that happen. Meditating will be a thing. All kinds of things to improve your character. Climates, you'll need to acclimate to certain zones or areas that are hot or cold or whatever. That takes time, and finding out how best to do that. Crafting..again, up to you if you want to do that. I do believe they may have a tutorial..so newcomers can learn the ropes. And by the way..I'll be 65 in October and still an avid gamer. :) One more thing...CARAVANS, if you have to leave early, you have the option to take up where you left off..with that group. One last thing...instancing. The only area where they "may" consider instancing may be for an epic quest mob...other than that instancing won't be prevalent at all. Instancing or non-instancing has been discussed from the get.go.
Cana
First off while I personally understand where you're coming from (mostly) and I so wish it really was possible it just simply isn't -- atleast not fully. Catering to both waters down content on a social and playstyle level. anyway I'll go through some of the ideas/suggestions you made.
Ruar said:
Selling items. Should Pantheon have automated auctions or require live interaction? A way to include both is to have an automated auction house buying and selling while at the same time adding in a fee for convienence. Players can log onto the auction system and offer their goods at a booth and there is no fee for using that player provided service. A captcha like system requiring the player to read a sentence and then answer a question can be used each hour to avoid being kicked out of the auction interface. Players who want to interact are rewarded while others who prefer to just buy and sell can do so at a cost.
Ruar said:
Travel. This one can also cater to both types of people. I think most will agree that any fast travel unlocks would require finding that location manually before being allowed to use it. There should be a system of teleport hubs and automated horse/griffin/boat routes. Requiring people to run back and forth from one side of the map to the other is just tedious design. At the same time the teleport hubs should be on a timer system to allow a market for player provided teleports. Additionally the player teleport locations should be placed closer to the popular assembly locations while the system teleports and transportation hubs should require a small amount of running to hit the popular areas. Example would be system travel to city gates while player travel is to dungeon entrances.
Ruar said:
Game time. How much time should be considered a normal playing session? Over the years a consistent answer I've seen for this question has been two hours. Then the question becomes what can be done in that two hours. If players spend 30 minutes LFG or 30 minutes travelling at the front end and another 30 minutes travelling at the back end then they only end up with an hour of actual play time. It's another reason why I think we need system travel to cut down on the tedium of losing play time. Even with two hours being an average play time there still needs to be content for people who have less time to be logged in. I think this is where instanced content is the answer. Having instanced dungeons or challenges that allow players to have fun and make some progress while not providing the best rewards is a good compromise. Someone can do an instanced dungeon with three people and get a decent item that isn't as good as the same item but from the non-instanced dungeon.
I have no idea how VR are going to handle this one; other than with their caravan system. I personally have no experience of this but apparently (feel free to correct me on this) but your party/caravan can log in and move to your location as long as they've been offline for a certain duration? Something like that anyway. I've heard rumors of other new features I'm personally not fond of; I can except a few compremises as long as they never go too far and ruin the open world experience. If the world feels small and un-engaging; that's killer for me personally and a broken tenet and begs the question; what else are they willing to break/bend on?
Ruar said:
Corpse runs. Graveyards are an amazing stress reducer and I think they should be a staple of every MMO simply because they make mistakes bearable. That being said I think there is a very good argument for having corpse runs still be an integral part of the gaming experience. A good compromise is to allow a graveyard to be instantly used once every 36 hours or so and then there's a 60 minute timer before it can be used again. So one mistake doesn't ruin a gaming session but the player has to be careful afterwards or they will need to do a corpse run or do something non-combat until the timer expires. Having a 10 minute debuff timer after using the graveyard and having an additional 10% exp penalty as well can provide incentive to do the corpse run while not being so punishing that players are afraid to play the game.
Ruar said:
Rare spawn mobs. This is always a big contention point because people who want to feel elite in a game need some kind of yardstick by which to measure their success. Being the first to complete a goal isn't enough because there needs to be some way to show others who is at a higher level of the game. Traditionally this is done by bottlenecking higher end gear or quest content so that only a few can complete it until the next expansion comes out. Once new content is released the elite players move on allowing more casual players the chance to get items that were previously fought over. The problem with this idea is that the majority of your players are unable to participate in content which pushes people away. A better way of designing content is to ensure all quests can be spawned by the person doing the quest and have no requirement for a rare spawn mob. Quests are what really drive a game so bottlenecking quests is a good way to kill the interest of your player base. To provide more than just rare gear items the rare spawn mobs need to have unique, and limited, cosmetic items. Mounts, wardrobe, housing, or banner items can all be used to help elite players show they are elite while still allowing casual players the ability to complete quests and occasionally get a cool item.
Ruar said:
Flags/keys/gear checks. Using flags or keys is a way to ensure players are forced to participate in different content. The problem with these mechanisms is too often they create a lot of work for guilds to ensure new members are flagged and keyed only to watch those members move on later. The keys do differentiate the hardcore players from the casuals be creating a gear check or time check system. A way to compromise on this is automatically awarding keys for old content once new material is released. Casual players will still have to get keyed for new content if they want to experience it sooner, but guilds will not have to spend endless cycles going through old content in order to raid specific areas.
Ruar said:
UI/Macros. The UI needs to be easy to customize in game without third party intervention. Macros should be allowed for things like attack combinations, healing, and other mundane tasks which require a lot of repitition but not actual skill. Utility abilities and cures would not be able to be macroed however. This would require flagging skills to help prevent automated responses during a fight but still allowing commonly used abilities to not be so tedious. The devs just have to ask if an ability requires some thought in order to be used or if it's just another dot to be added with the rest of the attacks. If skill is needed then flag it so it can't be macroed, otherwise just add it to the rotation becuase clicking six different attack buttons over and over is just boring.
Ruar said:
Housing. Housing should be available to everyone. ArcheAge made a huge mistake in having limited housing space because it drove so many players away. Having a limited area for bigger houses is also a bad idea because it can restrict access to players who want to work for a bigger area. Instead every player should be able to get the same sized plot and then build their house as they see fit. Players who invest more in housing can have a bigger house at the start but casual players can eventually obtain similar results. Have limited time decorations or paint to allow a sense of accomplishment for those who were able to get to certain construction points before others.
Anyway.. hopefully you can explain yourself abit better next time. :)
Ruar said:Why does challenging content also have to come with a ton of tedium simply so some players can think of themselves as being better than others. Here's a hint... you aren't a better gamer, you just have more time to spend playing.
I don't think anyone here is trying to be a better gamer than anyone else. It is more about the experience of feeling like you are actually living in a virtual world when you log into Pantheon. All the things you consider tedious are what make this type of MMOs different, its why people will stay with the game consecutively for years and years to come. The current generation of MMOs might have a surge of players join but they all disperse once the content runs out, then they jump on the next MMO and repeat. That is the nature of the casual MMO of today.
Say what you will about us being the minority, and you are correct if you are refering to the entire gaming community as a whole... but we are the majority of Pantheon supporters and there are more than enough people willing to give a game like Pantheon a shot to make it worthwhile for a small team like VR.
I read the tenets before I pledged to this project. I recognized that the leader of the development team is Brad Mcquaid, the same guy that made Everquest. Reading between the lines a little bit and it is easy to see that this project is not directed at the mainstream MMO gamer.
Best,
Pilch
