I think you have to take the old phrase " an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" here. We have veterans and pioneers of the mmorpg market at the helm. This is not some random studio with first time programmers, or first time story tellers, or a new cfo or lead game designer. OMG just look at chris perkins' resume. Look at Brad's resume. Look at Chris Rowan's resume. tim Sullivan's resume. These are the department leads and CEO, CFO. I can think of any better foundations for a company anywhere.
I mean the team has already stated they have the progress of game mapped out for over a 10 yr period. To prevent power creep like many games before that (including eq) to give this game longevity. They are working on strong game foundations. Mechanics, class dependency, class groups heaving equal ability to do their job but with completely different play style mechanics. The streams show very clearly how far they have come to game stability, class definitions, pathing, npc attributes and make their vision a reality. Things will only speed up from here. How do you create more zones when you do not have the basics done. How can you move forward without construction and refinement of collision system, effective pathing to prevent mobs getting trapped in walls or floors. How can you proceed without having the Tool sets done that create greater ease on very large and complicated tasks. The tools must first be created, tested, debugged then implimented. The one I will use as an example is their tool to layout NPC behaviors and flagged skills. Their current tool build allows just that. It allows them to go into a npc file to customize traits, power lvls, spell selection, ai reactions (aka scouts, friendly assist behavior, or runners) They have same style of tool for class builds. They can simlpy open a sheet, adjust class traits,skills and spells with just a change of numbers and retest. All of this is to allow them a much greater ease to polish the game in a timely and cheap fashion.
Another example of this is the focus and details they have already put into the lore. OMG tell me they have not planned out the reality of what pantheon history will be and affect game play accordingly. Streams have shown in pre alpha testing already what is going on behind the scenes to a stunning result. Both pa 1 and pa 2 I believe only had a different one zone map to be played. They had much few classes to actually be playble. If I recall.. current alpha phase had 9 of 12 classes already implimented, 4 zones playable, factions being assigned, perception system for quests implimented, salvage skills placed in. All that came in the form of a what 4 month period from Pa2 to Pa3... that is a hell of a lot of progress. I do believe they will have a lot more sytems in place for pa4? I also believe them working on all these systems before world building is much more important then building the world first and populating it second without any of the core function of game already far in the process of refinement.
This team is very small. Remember as it is in eq. It is not the class make up of the party, or the size of the raid that counts.. it is the party or raid being familiar with each others talents and limitations that lead to its success. During the unity presentation in 2016 it was expressed the team would be small.. roughly 15 people to start.. at max around 40. You do relalize that these games when rushed take nearly 3-4 yrs with teams of 140+ and 20-30 million dollars invested. This company has a huge advantage.. it is passionatly controlled by actual gamers.
I am sorry about my spacey thoughts and horrible spelling. In the end I reiterate. Look at the teams resumes. Look at the progress of the videos from early pa1 to now. Look at the planning already done.. and how the vision has already started to be shaped into a reality. It may be slower then most.. but VR has been much more honest then most. In the streams... I very often see the devs practice restraint, much to their praise, when asked.. if it will work this way, will we have.... can you tell us when it will be released. They have all learned that results are better then hype they display it constantly with their round table sessions and news letter and live gameplay streams. I believe them because that message has never changed at all from day one.
Morgoth said:Well let me clarify one thing.
i donated 250 wanted to go higher but they closed the pre alpha. so this is NOT abou me worying about money.
my initial post was all about hope and dashing it, never about money.
I am 51, pessimist and cinic by nature, so i tend ot ask lots of questions, tend to look at all possiblities and angles.
I appreciate all your replies though :)
peace love and million high fives!!
Ah my young friend, hold on to that optimism. I prefer to be a pragmatist, and actually learn from the lessons of history. Money was never the issue.
TriteEnvile said:I think you have to take the old phrase " an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" here. We have veterans and pioneers of the mmorpg market at the helm. This is not some random studio with first time programmers, or first time story tellers, or a new cfo or lead game designer. OMG just look at chris perkins' resume. Look at Brad's resume. Look at Chris Rowan's resume. tim Sullivan's resume. These are the department leads and CEO, CFO. I can think of any better foundations for a company anywhere.
I mean the team has already stated they have the progress of game mapped out for over a 10 yr period. To prevent power creep like many games before that (including eq) to give this game longevity. They are working on strong game foundations. Mechanics, class dependency, class groups heaving equal ability to do their job but with completely different play style mechanics. The streams show very clearly how far they have come to game stability, class definitions, pathing, npc attributes and make their vision a reality. Things will only speed up from here. How do you create more zones when you do not have the basics done. How can you move forward without construction and refinement of collision system, effective pathing to prevent mobs getting trapped in walls or floors. How can you proceed without having the Tool sets done that create greater ease on very large and complicated tasks. The tools must first be created, tested, debugged then implimented. The one I will use as an example is their tool to layout NPC behaviors and flagged skills. Their current tool build allows just that. It allows them to go into a npc file to customize traits, power lvls, spell selection, ai reactions (aka scouts, friendly assist behavior, or runners) They have same style of tool for class builds. They can simlpy open a sheet, adjust class traits,skills and spells with just a change of numbers and retest. All of this is to allow them a much greater ease to polish the game in a timely and cheap fashion.
Another example of this is the focus and details they have already put into the lore. OMG tell me they have not planned out the reality of what pantheon history will be and affect game play accordingly. Streams have shown in pre alpha testing already what is going on behind the scenes to a stunning result. Both pa 1 and pa 2 I believe only had a different one zone map to be played. They had much few classes to actually be playble. If I recall.. current alpha phase had 9 of 12 classes already implimented, 4 zones playable, factions being assigned, perception system for quests implimented, salvage skills placed in. All that came in the form of a what 4 month period from Pa2 to Pa3... that is a hell of a lot of progress. I do believe they will have a lot more sytems in place for pa4? I also believe them working on all these systems before world building is much more important then building the world first and populating it second without any of the core function of game already far in the process of refinement.
This team is very small. Remember as it is in eq. It is not the class make up of the party, or the size of the raid that counts.. it is the party or raid being familiar with each others talents and limitations that lead to its success. During the unity presentation in 2016 it was expressed the team would be small.. roughly 15 people to start.. at max around 40. You do relalize that these games when rushed take nearly 3-4 yrs with teams of 140+ and 20-30 million dollars invested. This company has a huge advantage.. it is passionatly controlled by actual gamers.
I am sorry about my spacey thoughts and horrible spelling. In the end I reiterate. Look at the teams resumes. Look at the progress of the videos from early pa1 to now. Look at the planning already done.. and how the vision has already started to be shaped into a reality. It may be slower then most.. but VR has been much more honest then most. In the streams... I very often see the devs practice restraint, much to their praise, when asked.. if it will work this way, will we have.... can you tell us when it will be released. They have all learned that results are better then hype they display it constantly with their round table sessions and news letter and live gameplay streams. I believe them because that message has never changed at all from day one.
Again, enjoy the optimism.
But four years in and just seeing character classes being fully fleshed out seems to be a bit slow.
As you stated the team is small, VERY small. MMO's by definition are supposed to be massive. And a non-instanced, persistent world, needs to be very massive.
Frankly there is no magic tool to make amazing unique content in great amounts quickly. Zones, npcs, quests, dungeons all have to be built by hand. Uniqueness has to touch everything. You cannot just make one gnoll dungeon, copy it, reskin all the npcs with orc art, make another copy reskin it with lizard zealots.
As many have said, there is lore, there is backstory. Zones, dungeons, npcs will have to be made to match that lore, to have a story.
There is no getting around it. The road map VR has set for themselves has us in for a very long ride.
They are carefully balancing the money they have, to the amount of bodies they can afford. Hoping they are able to get to a magic point, the alpha, before running out of capital.
Alpha has to be right. It can be a make or break point. A good looking alpha, four plus years in the making will bring in fresh revenue from new pledges and maybe even some bigger money backers.
An alpha that fails may doom the project I feel. If the word goes out from alpha players to the gaming world that the emperor has no clothes, it will be vicious. The troll underground of gamers love to denigrate anything, simply for the sake of griefing.
We see a number of new MMOs out there moving along the same path as VR is now. Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, Camelot Unchained, even Shroud of the Avatar. They are all in their own definitions of pre-alpha, alpha, early access, etc. Some are doing new original things. Some seem to be just making virtual farmvilles and a burgeoning cashshop of items you can buy for your personal town. Some are struggling with technical issues. Some are having design complications, their alphas have exposed glaring deficiencies in game play.
VR is avoiding all those types of issues. We hope. They are making the same game again, a third time. They are making the game Gary Gygax created 50 years ago? A proven success.
So the brains behind the operation are, for lack of a better word, gambling it can be done with essentially a miniscule staff, on what most likely is a shoestring budget. Any venture of this nature is a gamble, so that is not meant as a bad thing. They know if they can get to that 'magic' point with something that is actually working somewhat well and fun. Funds should refresh, hopefully carrying VR towards actually building a massive world.
VR could also realistically, just continue to dribble out content to a dedicated sub base. Slowly building up to a massive world. Of course that would take many years and is the dream of any successful MMO. How many players/subs does it actually take to keep the operation afloat? Also why their staff is small. They are insulating themselves from economies of scale.
If they envision EQ3 and EQ1 is still running 19 years later. There is certainly some logic to their plan.
zewtastic said:TriteEnvile said:
Again, enjoy the optimism.
But four years in and just seeing character classes being fully fleshed out seems to be a bit slow.
i have to agree. snails pace even.
There is no getting around it. The road map VR has set for themselves has us in for a very long ride.
They are carefully balancing the money they have, to the amount of bodies they can afford. Hoping they are able to get to a magic point, the alpha, before running out of capital.
Alpha has to be right. It can be a make or break point. A good looking alpha, four plus years in the making will bring in fresh revenue from new pledges and maybe even some bigger money backers.
An alpha that fails may doom the project I feel. If the word goes out from alpha players to the gaming world that the emperor has no clothes, it will be vicious. The troll underground of gamers love to denigrate anything, simply for the sake of griefing.
This is WHY i say the game doesn't need to go to Alpha until kingsreach is 90% done and reignfall is started and has a good bit going. I know everyone wants alpha to start tomorrow, but if they do this wrong, there may not BE a game at all.
We see a number of new MMOs out there moving along the same path as VR is now. Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, Camelot Unchained, even Shroud of the Avatar. They are all in their own definitions of pre-alpha, alpha, early access, etc. Some are doing new original things. Some seem to be just making virtual farmvilles and a burgeoning cashshop of items you can buy for your personal town. Some are struggling with technical issues. Some are having design complications, their alphas have exposed glaring deficiencies in game play. I played Shroud of the Avatar. not sure if they are calling this a finished game or early access, but it's So bad. I won't even try the game again. I have tried it twice, 6 months apart and it's a terrible game. (another reason to not open Alpha too early) I thought Shroud was a 100% finished, released game... Ashes of Creation doesn't look any better. Looks like GW3 to me. VR does need to be careful. people love to hate.
So the brains behind the operation are, for lack of a better word, gambling it can be done with essentially a miniscule staff, How many players/subs does it actually take to keep the operation afloat? good question
Morgoth said:Hey All
Before i got hammered, I LOVE this game, they appear to return to the routes of EQ, the social aspects, the challenges, the immersion.
All the stuff we loved enjoyed about the original EQ.
I am a hard core EQ fan, tested the game and even today i remember the fond memories.
Reason of this post is our hopes were sparked with EQ next then it was cancelled.
Pantheon being a community funded (i know nothing about what is involved) , do they have the budget to keep going and not submit to the main stream and water it down.
I just don't want the hopes crashed again :(
I pledged and looking forward to alpha and beta test.
I tested Everquest before it launched, tested a few games before and after Everquest, and have been hanging on faithfully to Pantheon's eventual release and launch since 2014, the trials and tribulations of getting people with the right stuff..is pretty much passed now. This is the third team and the BEST team...still hard at work on Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. They are the "little engine that could"...plugging away...advertising Pantheon through different livestreamers. I have only seen improvements over these past four years.
I look forward to Pantheon's release with a lot of positivity...I hope you do too. I invested in Landmark...but that was not meant to be. I believe VR is on the right track and I will keep the moral support coming for this hard working, motivated team.
I did my pledge in the summer of 2014, and don't regret it one bit. Can't wait!! :)
Cana
dorotea said:Sony Online / Daybreak makes up in incompetence what they lack in honesty and willingness to communicate with customers. Trusting them to come up with a good game is a path of desperation. Not a criticism towards those with hopes for EQ Next we *were* desperate. VR is not guaranteed to succeed - we do not know what funding if any is still needed and how clase they are to getting it. They *are* guaranteed to be more competent and honest than Daybreak.
Progress has been a lot steadier at least over the last year and a lot more visible than anything with EQ Next.
Disclaimer for those that haven't figured it out. I am biased. I do not *like* Daybreak.
I don't like Daybreak either..I doubt they know or CARE what they are doing with EQ. Money, money, money.
Flapp said:I am fairly sure Pantheon will release at some point. I wouldn't get hopes up for Alpha before Mid 2019. No point in opening Alpha for 5-8 zones. They literally just now got 4-5 to "work together" like a real game and they have another continent and a half to go.
They need to save Alpha for AFTER they get all of KingsReach "done-ish" and AFTER they have started working on Reignfall. but, that's just my opinion. I am sure people want alpha to start tomorrow. I do not want alpha until there is more than 50% of the game done. Right now, about 30% is done as far as I can see.
This game will never go EQ Next. EQN was cartoonish graphics with GW2 like battle system where you roll in solo and kill 8-10 mobs in a few explosive moves and come out with 100% health. Not to mention a 100% destructible world was a mistake from the word go.
I hope that this engine can take advantage of nVidia's new RTX crap eventually. They should ignore it for now and move on as planned. They are already 3 years behind after starting over just before 2015.
Actually Alpha is supposed to be..before next year...but I'll leave it at that.
Morgoth said:Thanks Avaen, i did not bother to respond, it is what it is. yes am new, yes am learning and yes sometimes i post prematurely. i wish i have the option to close this post it is time for this post to widdle down :)
You can delete your own posts if that is what you wish, but it is up to the Moderator (Kilsin) whether the thread is closed or not.
Usually we receive warnings ( a couple) and if the conversation is still too heated, (that means mud-slinging at other posters too) then it gets shut down.
This is a Developer's forum and therefore we are expected to be civil to each other hehehe.
Discuss the points being made, not the person themselves. The Devs want our feedback on the game itself..along with any ideas, or suggestions.
Just remember ..just because you wish it..doesn't mean it will be implemented. Thousands of ideas, suggestions on these forums since early 2014, depends if it fits, and the Developers always have the last word on that. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Actually Alpha is supposed to be..before next year...but I'll leave it at that.
That is incorrect Canadina. The most recent information is that alpha will not release in 2018. I expected you to be up to date on release info.
Edit: I looked up the exact quote for you. From the Aug. newsletter.
Ben Dean :"Earlier this year we aimed to have Alpha available by year’s end but we’ve restructured our approach since then, so don’t expect Alpha this year. "