Forums » The Paladin

Free Heals?

    • 423 posts
    October 31, 2018 10:07 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Darch said:

    The "cost" of the Paladin heals is that they have to use Reckoning points which are generated while in combat so they won't be that much of a downtime healer.  It works on par with the Dire Lords self healing that requires them to be in combat.

    I agree that the warrior will be king tank vs physical encounters.  The warrior has the resilience resource allowing the warrior to reduce ALL damage taken by an even greater percentage PASSIVELY on top of their already 20% higher armor rating and shield skills to reduce damage even further.  

    As it currently stands, that is not true. Paladin have Oathflame which is both a heal and a wrath generator with no associated cost.

     

    Warrior being king tank vs physical is unfounded. Even if a warrior ended up taking a full 20-30% less damage than the other two tanks, as it stands currently they wouldn't be able to match a dire lord in terms of mitigation (especially not in a longer fight). They have no self healing at all so a warriors hp is always dropping, meanwhile a dire lord is healing 12% of their max hp evey 8 seconds via Thresh and every 15 seconds they can heal 25% of their max HP with Abyssal Strike. 

     

    Extreme example: Warrior and DL have 1000 hp and are fighting the same mob in a 30 second fight encompassing 10 rounds of combat where the Warrior takes 50 damage per hit (50% less than DL) and DL takes 100 damage per hit.

     

    Only figuring their main mitigation methods: Warrior ends with 500 HP. Dire Lord ends with 610 HP thanks to healing 61% (possibly 86% depending on when Abyssal was used) of max HP in that 30 seconds. 

     

    Of course this is only with the info we have now and before full reveals and balancing etc, but it goes to show how they very well can find some measure of balance so that all tanks come out pretty much evenly. If the DL in this example was only able to heal 50% of max HP then they would be equal to warrior in outcome. 

    My statement isn't "untrue"... The paladin's free healing is "on par with the DL's" passive abilities to regenerate their HP back, but their actual real heals require them to be in combat... so it "won't be that much of a downtime healer" with their oathflame ability that is on CD (I know this because it also generates wrath) that "lightly heals" compared to their in combat heals. 

    In your extreme example of mitigation, you are forgetting the horrible situation when the NPC's are double and tripple attacking or there are multiple NPCs... the damage will be coming in faster than it can be replenished (SPIKING) and the absolute most important factor left out from your scenario is that the DL heals for a percentage of the damage dealt with the exception of abyssal strike.  If the target they are attacking is higher level than the DL (likely the case in a group/raid) then their damage dealt is mitigated (with the exception of baleful severing).  NPCs with high AC or dodge/parry/block/riposte/Immune to dmg for X duration will absolutely cripple a DL in its current state.  Riposte alone against a melee that can't reduce/avoid the dmg of riposted atks can seriously hurt and in some cases kill melees (this is why melee classes stand behind melee NPCs).  

    Relying on dealing melee damage to offset low damage mitigation when your primary role is taking damage es no bueno unless the amount of self healing is based on a % of the class's max HP and not a % of the damage dealt.  (WoW did this well with the DeathKnight).

     


    This post was edited by Darch at October 31, 2018 10:20 AM PDT
    • 2178 posts
    October 31, 2018 1:59 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    My statement isn't "untrue"... The paladin's free healing is "on par with the DL's" passive abilities to regenerate their HP back, but their actual real heals require them to be in combat... so it "won't be that much of a downtime healer" with their oathflame ability that is on CD (I know this because it also generates wrath) that "lightly heals" compared to their in combat heals. 

    In your extreme example of mitigation, you are forgetting the horrible situation when the NPC's are double and tripple attacking or there are multiple NPCs... the damage will be coming in faster than it can be replenished (SPIKING) and the absolute most important factor left out from your scenario is that the DL heals for a percentage of the damage dealt with the exception of abyssal strike.  If the target they are attacking is higher level than the DL (likely the case in a group/raid) then their damage dealt is mitigated (with the exception of baleful severing).  NPCs with high AC or dodge/parry/block/riposte/Immune to dmg for X duration will absolutely cripple a DL in its current state.  Riposte alone against a melee that can't reduce/avoid the dmg of riposted atks can seriously hurt and in some cases kill melees (this is why melee classes stand behind melee NPCs).  

    Relying on dealing melee damage to offset low damage mitigation when your primary role is taking damage es no bueno unless the amount of self healing is based on a % of the class's max HP and not a % of the damage dealt.  (WoW did this well with the DeathKnight).

    Not sure where you are getting your information on this stuff. Oathflame has a 1 second cooldown and no associated cost currently. It can be used endlessly out of combat and is more than just a tiny heal. Dire Lords abilities Thresh and Abyssal strike both heal a flat % of the DLs max HP, not a percent of damage dealt. 

     

    It doesn't matter how many attacks are coming in for the model to work the same; 1000 damage coming in whether 1 hit, 10 hits, or 100 hits is still 1000 damage, the same amount would be mitigated regardless of number of hits. At the same time I really don't know where this idea that DL will have low mitigation comes from, I really doubt the difference between heavy mail and plate + armor bonus is going to exceed maybe 10-15% extra damage reduction. The other stuff that mobs could possibly have/do isn't relevant to this in particular as we aren't considering full class ability lists/capabilities. 

    • 1322 posts
    October 31, 2018 3:25 PM PDT

    It's a no end debate : The truth and simplification is : "Neglecting every aspect I don't want and pushing every aspect I do want, the Direlord will be weak and less desirable."

     

    There is no need to push it to a third page, since we don't know much about TC, maths and everything.

    • 423 posts
    February 18, 2019 7:04 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Darch said:

    My statement isn't "untrue"... The paladin's free healing is "on par with the DL's" passive abilities to regenerate their HP back, but their actual real heals require them to be in combat... so it "won't be that much of a downtime healer" with their oathflame ability that is on CD (I know this because it also generates wrath) that "lightly heals" compared to their in combat heals. 

    In your extreme example of mitigation, you are forgetting the horrible situation when the NPC's are double and tripple attacking or there are multiple NPCs... the damage will be coming in faster than it can be replenished (SPIKING) and the absolute most important factor left out from your scenario is that the DL heals for a percentage of the damage dealt with the exception of abyssal strike.  If the target they are attacking is higher level than the DL (likely the case in a group/raid) then their damage dealt is mitigated (with the exception of baleful severing).  NPCs with high AC or dodge/parry/block/riposte/Immune to dmg for X duration will absolutely cripple a DL in its current state.  Riposte alone against a melee that can't reduce/avoid the dmg of riposted atks can seriously hurt and in some cases kill melees (this is why melee classes stand behind melee NPCs).  

    Relying on dealing melee damage to offset low damage mitigation when your primary role is taking damage es no bueno unless the amount of self healing is based on a % of the class's max HP and not a % of the damage dealt.  (WoW did this well with the DeathKnight).

     

    Not sure where you are getting your information on this stuff. Oathflame has a 1 second cooldown and no associated cost currently. It can be used endlessly out of combat and is more than just a tiny heal. Dire Lords abilities Thresh and Abyssal strike both heal a flat % of the DLs max HP, not a percent of damage dealt. 

     

    It doesn't matter how many attacks are coming in for the model to work the same; 1000 damage coming in whether 1 hit, 10 hits, or 100 hits is still 1000 damage, the same amount would be mitigated regardless of number of hits. At the same time I really don't know where this idea that DL will have low mitigation comes from, I really doubt the difference between heavy mail and plate + armor bonus is going to exceed maybe 10-15% extra damage reduction. The other stuff that mobs could possibly have/do isn't relevant to this in particular as we aren't considering full class ability lists/capabilities. 

    I did mention the DL's flat % HP heals like abysal strike - which still requires the DL to attack an offensive target... (These can still be dodge/blocked/parried/riposted/missed/CC'd).  Having to DEAL damage in order to stay alive is terrible...  The % damage healing I was referring to is essence leech which is not on a cooldown.  And I got my description of Oathflame directly from the website (which I didn't know had a 1 sec cooldown):

    Oathflame

    A swift burst of celestial flame that lightly heals your defensive target. (Generates Wrath)


    But more importantly, 1000 damage may be 1000 damage, but the whole point of "mitigating" damage is to "reduce" the damage making the rate at which health is lost slower.  The argument being made was against the quantity of hits, not the end result that would "eventually" total 1000.  Obviously 5=5, but to use an example, if you have 5 enemies double attacking you with what would do 100 damage per hit when you have no mitigation, then you are taking your 1000 dmg/sec.  However, if you have 40% mitigation, you are taking 600 dmg/sec, or if you have 65% mitigation you are taking 350 dmg per second... if you have 3,500 total HP with 0 mitigation you will live 3.5 seconds, if you have the same HP with 65% mitigation you will live for 10 seconds without any kind of intervention (i.e. shield block which can reduce damage by up to an additional 50% for a couple of seconds).  These are all absolutely hypothetical numbers of course, but I'm just trying to help you understand that mitigation makes all the difference when taking 10 hits to = 1,000 damage compared to 3 hits, making the quantity of hits in a short window of time a big factor... especially when you rely on a skill with a 25 second cooldown that doesn't land.

    If you think armor types don't matter, then why have armor types at all and just have it be cosmetic?

    With that said, some people will enjoy the challenge and role play of the class, and they can go around hitting rats and snakes with abysal strike to get "free heals"!  Over Powered!!!  ;)


    This post was edited by Darch at February 18, 2019 7:20 PM PST
    • 93 posts
    March 13, 2019 4:34 PM PDT

    I see some folks still can't wrap their heads around why the ability to heal X% damage after it occurs is not at all equivalent to mitigating that X% damage up front. Nor is evading X% of the time equal to mitigating X% of every hit. 

    Such people have clearly never tanked end game content in challenging games, and should probably refrain from commenting on MT balance discussions. 

    • 1322 posts
    March 13, 2019 11:41 PM PDT

    The good olds twin crazy uncles rambling about the very same things for a year.

     

    It quite reassuring in the end.