Forums » The Enchanter

Charmed Mobs

    • 122 posts
    August 30, 2018 9:24 AM PDT

    I hope they follow a simple formula for charmed mobs. Like x ( reasonably low number so as not to be overshadow PC dps in conjunction with other enchanter damage) dps per level of the mob. Don't let the charmed mobs keep special abilities and other things. Simply make it be an extra dps source for the enchanter while it is charmed. this way charm can still be a cc, but it is a cc that can do damage to other targets in fights while at the same time not completely overshadowing dps classes with dps. 

    • 152 posts
    September 1, 2018 6:57 AM PDT

    The issue commonly brought up is that DPS tend to compare Enchanters to their own ability to perform damage. Enchanters have Charm yes, but a lot of the dps comes in the form of Melee Hastes, Spell Hastes, Mana Regen, Mana Replenishment (Ench Nuke), DOTs as well as Nukes. They being a force multiplier are going to be stronger when there's more people in a group. Thus, if it's a full group it won't be surprising if they overshadow the damage of a single DPS class. It's when they are solo or in a small group taking on content that won't require their CC function is when they fade.

    They can also slow a mobs attack speed, cast speed, reduce total damage that mob can do directly (which stacks with slow), decrease their melee stats, silence them, PBAE stun and mez them. These things to include charm reduce the damage being done to the target which falls into the Healer domain now. Enchanters have their hands in everything in the group which is why they tend to be the central figure. Bards when they are released will very likely fit the same role as they are listed as the Support/Control Archetype.

    Here's the issue with Enchanter's though and Bards for instance. DPS classes can stack, meaning if one DPS is in the group, you are at 100% dps not counting the damage done by the tank, healer or control/support. If you add another DPS you're now at 200%. If you did that with an Enchanter, it would be 100% of dps for a single Enchanter, then if you add a second Enchanter, that Enchanter now adds 40% more dps. 200% is more than 140%. Even if you consider that a single Enchanter provides more dps than a single DPS class when deciding on who to add in the 6th slot, you won't pick a second Enchanter over a second DPS, you just won't. 

    As for Charm, I made myself very vocal to the developers and the community how I would like to see Charm. While Shock & Awe can remain as is, Charm itself should have a reduced power curve, say 70-80% depending on balance. Then if that charm becomes permanent, it's further reduced to 50-60%. Shock & Awe is basically a short term charm that turns the mob against its allies but isn't directly controlled and I feel can remain at 100%.


    This post was edited by Janus at September 1, 2018 7:02 AM PDT
    • 473 posts
    September 27, 2018 4:48 AM PDT

    Charem soloing.  I loved it.  I never had a perma-charmed pet before and I am not sure I would want it.  A real charm solo'er would charm a mob, have it beat on another mob, throw a few nukes into the kill, and then charm a different mob - setting it on the first charmed mob which is now at half health.  You keep repeating this process.  Charm a new mob every kill.  Didn't bother buffing etc.  Just let the mobs do what they do - kill each other and carefully manipulate who you have control of.

    Some folks call that OP.  I just told you how I did it and how rewarding it was.  I had NO issues in PoP.  But there is a downside that most folks never talk about.  It takes you longer to do this solo.  You do NOT get as much XP/loot as anyone in a group.  It takes a lot more time.  Mobs did in fact break their charm.  Now you have two mobs on you.  But as an enchanter you pop AE stun, mezz, mezz, charm the healthiest one, break mezz, target the other and get back to it.  And if there is a resist in there anywhere you are dead.  As an Enchanter/Illy in EQ and EQ2 I was always near teh top for a number of things.  Kills, money, loot, etc.  But I was always near, or even at the top, for another thing.  Deaths.  No one died as much as me.  With great risk comes great reward.  I seriously doubt that there was anyone that was de-leveled more than me.

    Enchanters are NOT DPS mages.  They never have been.  In fact, they have always been the low man in the mage's class.  Even in times when the mage catagory were considered the top tier for DPS, an ENC would still be out-DPSd by scouts.  We bring buffs to the game.  This increases the overall value of every group-mate.  Of course when folks start parsing out the DPS they boast of how well they did and how they are awesome without realizing that so much of their damage came from the buffs by the Ench.

    Historically, Enchs have always needed some help with their own DPS.  They are not that great (or at least not nearly as good at it as other mage class characters).  But it is designed that way for a reason.  They have a LOT more to offer a group than anyone else.  I had a LOT more groups deny pet-charming while grouping than EVER agreed to it.  Charming a pet is almost always a solo functrion.  Other players just do not seem to want to deal with it.

    Some folks will point out that this is not a solo-type game.  It is designed for grouping.  I think they used to say something like 20/60/20 solo/group/raid?  I don't recall.  But still - there is that 20%.  Enchanters dont have much by way of solo DPS and pet charming is there to help make up for it.  Let's get some testing done before we talk about the perma-charm.  We still don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

    • 2 posts
    October 4, 2018 11:13 PM PDT

    "But there has to be limits to the fun."  What the hell doe this mean BamBam?  I want to have as much fun as I can. That is what I pay for. Why are people so worried about other palyers "fun"?  As long as the class does not have abilites that can ruin another players fun I really dont care. I can always roll one of them and play it if I want to.  I agreed with the SK, cleric, and Ranger nerfs that signifactly reudece thier abilty to swarm and HS scads of mobs.  I played them all back in that day. It was troubbling that someone could pull a whole dungeon sectrion and solo it. Vacuming up mobs others may have needed for a quest or some such.  I think the devs in EQ did the right thing in nerfing it.

     

    THe comments are based on years playing an Enchanter in EQ

    You guys are talking about ruining a whole class so it cannot solo. Pets 5 - 10 levels below them! Are you kidding me? They will not be able to tank anything and just become a short term dot for root rooting or nuking. People will drop the class and go wizard or necro for that. THis idea couldn't have come someone who has played an EQ enchanter to any degree. You will ruin the class with such dumb ideas.

    Enchanters in EQ who charm have to be very skilled.  You are juggling something that wants to kill you about every 7 minutes or so. Buff the biotch adn its even more dangerous. The higher you go the more dangerous it gest as more mobs can stun and interupt and hit for a ton of damage. They are not a way to power level and are  not faster Exp then a group. THey actually are slow compared to groups or say kiters.  I do box mine with a cleric but my ranger boxed with my cleric kills far faster. Enchanters charm for the challenge and to have some way to effectively solo when undable to find a group.  Having a group centric game is great but there will be times with no group is available...what do you do then?

    A good group with a monk can break most camps in their level range pretty easily. They do not need CC.  Mana pots make up for the mana regen buff or they have a pocket enchanter they log in just for the mana regen buff. The Enchanter has less dps then the wizard and other casting classes as its strength and need from a group is its CC ability. Why take an enchater is such a group? Get another Wizard or rogue. YOu need more dps and the enchanter will not bring you that. A charmed pet adds nothing to such a group other then risk and delay as the enchanter has to wrange the damn thing every few minutes.

    Because they are weak, Enchanters suck at soloing without charm.  You cant root rot or root nuke as an an enchanter as well as the dot classes and pure nuking classes.  To solo, they need an effective charm pet. Not the weak ass pet they get in EQ for example that is rarely used after level 5.

    Use the EQ Enchanter as the model. It is not an easy class to play correctly. Its is why there are so few of them on EQ servers compared to other classes.  If you want this class to get played, it needs unique abilites and an effective way to solo to some degree.

    I dont charm in a group as it slows the group down and puts it at extra risk. A charm break during a pull could wipe the group.  It ties up some of the enchanters attention when he needs to be fighting or CC for the group.  

    I think the EQ Enchanter is very well balanced and should be used as a model.

     

    Worry about 5 enchanters and a cleric?  Better worry about 6 sumoners or kiting rangers/druids instead! Nerf them!

    Oh ya, don't mess with my fun as long as its not hurting yours!

    • 399 posts
    October 5, 2018 8:30 AM PDT

    ^ No

    If you can charm something that takes a group to kill and it retain all of its stats, that is a problem. If the enchanter pet can tank better, and do more dps than the other classes of their respective role, then it is a problem.

    Playing an enchanter isn't hard. If you have a druid there to snare your pet and root the other mobs it is practically impossible for you to die. When the hole opened up the only viable option in going down there and killing the undead and doing well is with 2 enchanters with blue golems. Those golems had an insane amount of hp and hit like a truck. Is there risk, yea. But not enough to deter the play style at all. The tanks back then, and dps, couldnt hold a candle to an enchanter pet. Later on they nerfed raid zones to where most mobs in that zone were immuned to charm, but not until luclin era.

     

    As it was said previously, Enchanters are a CC role, not a dps roll, or tanking roll, thanks to their pet. Btw we aren;t advocating for enchanters to not have charm, but the pet needs to be nerfed signifcantly. 

    • 5 posts
    October 8, 2018 12:17 PM PDT

    Let's not start by nerfing the Enchanter so soon!

    • 223 posts
    October 10, 2018 12:15 AM PDT

    Hi everyone and thanks for a great discussion! 
    Please keep it up, with your comments and ideas.

    @Temijin1 when i said "But there has to be limits to the fun." i ment that it has to be balanced so Enchanters wont be dps, tank and cc roll in one class.

    This threat is not about ruining The Enchanter or breaking your B***s. Its about balance. I asked the community for their ideas, on how to balance a difficult skill => The Charm mekanic. Because its a mekanic that can make or break the game. It can ruin The summoner class in an instant if the charmed pets are to strong, it can make dps classes feel lackluster, it can make the tanks want to go afk /dance instead of playing the actual game. 

    If one class can preform 3 roles, there must be a balance to it. A lot of people want to be "the top dog" in games and dont mind rolling away from their prefered class, to play the class that has a broken mekanic. You see it in WoW, Eq, Mobas and even in Cs even the AWP guy wating to 1 shot you. We want to do good in the games, so we use the tools there is at hand, sometimes the tools are to good. Its the devs job to balance these tools, so the playing field is somewhat even. 

    Why do i care what other ppl do? I care because it affects the game in general, the grp dynamic, the economy, the balance of content and it waves on into items, other calss skills, npc skills and boss fights.
    Why do i want to take away fun? A balanced game with no broken mekanics, is way more fun in my eyes and i hope thats the way VR are going. 

    When thats said i hope and expect VR to find this balance sweet spot. and give us a fun Enchanter class, that can shine in grps and be abel to solo and preform in smaller grps and duos, with a charmed pet or not. 

    Have a great day!
    Upwards and onwards friends!

     

    • 17 posts
    October 25, 2018 5:51 PM PDT

    I love the idea that when you have a mob charmed, you have to concentrate to hold your domination over them.  Perma charm is like breaking their minds thus releasing the need to concentrate. The negative result is slower spell casting and long cast spells being impossible, implemented during the charm phase with a reduction of strength, ac, and casting ability of the charmed mob. If it ticks to perma charm, the enchanter should regain all their abilities as they are no longer concentrating on the dominion but the mob is effectively a puppet thus slower with their attack speed, weaker with each melee ability, less likely to even attempt to avoid damage, and slower with spell casting or it's effectiveness.

    Real world example:

    Uncharmed mob: Look at someone who is motivated in their life. They are full of energy and usually have an independant mindset. While disciplined in their actions, they go about it with a passion thus giving their full potential.   

    Charmed mob: Now look at someone who's going through a rough patch in their life. They have less energy overall. Slower reaction speeds, less passion to put into their actions, and feel like they have little control over their lives so they care a lot less about what happens to them.

    Prema charmed mob: Then look at someone who is miserable and feels trapped in their life.  They are lethargic, tired, giving minimal effort, and simply don't care.

    This is a game and I'm not saying mimic depression, but the concept is the same. How they chose to reduce the mob's effectiveness is for VR Devs to decide. But there should be a negative to this positive. A perma charmed mob for an Enc should be no more effective than a summoner's pet. But if it has a chance to break, the risk is high whether solo or in a group.  They have streams where the Devs have said they are focusing on the group play and a true community for this game, but there will also be people and classes that can solo better than others. DPS in every game I've played is a dime a dozen. then you have tanks, healers, and buff bots (Enchanters). Enchanters in the streams have proven to be more useful than simply buff bots and that's a huge upgrade. They have a nuke that does comparable low end damage to melee while giving mana to the group. Not using that ability because you are doing CC hurts the healer more than anyone. So till the charm is perminate, take it away from us to balance our effectiveness in a group. The mob will still have the same HP, but the charm and perma charm comes with a debuff on the pet and limits the group's crawl / grind ability till the charm is locked in. Any AE spell should be impossible for an Enc who is concentrating on charm before it goes perminate.

    Enchanters are OP by their very nature. 1 skilled Enc can take the place of 3 tanks with the use of well placed mez and charm abilities. They are tied to the healer's mana thus giving more life to the tank indirectly. They increase the speed of abilities and in some cases the effectiveness of them thus indirectly adding dps. They slow and debuff the mob thus indirectly adding even more dps and heals by the mob taking more dmg and not hitting as hard. All of this together reduces the recovery time between fights during a grind or a raid. Saying they have their hands in everything, is an understatement. That's why they are so difficult to "balance" in a game where group roles have hard definitions. I can't wait to see how VR tackles this.

    Just an opinion of a moron...

     

    • 62 posts
    October 27, 2018 8:28 AM PDT

    I personally think that you should leave the enchanters alone just because they have great power doesn't mean that it doesn't comes with a cost..... People never show when Charming a mob goes terribly wrong in the simplest things you do can backfire and wipe a whole group.... Most of all these changes that you guys want to make to The enchanters Charmed spell sound god-awful and I suggest leaving them alone...

     

    I would also go as far as to say that most people do not understand how difficult is was to play an enchanter to its fullest potential... You can cry for nerfs all you like... I can't stop you... I could always tell between a player that learned his class and a player that was helped and power leveled to a high level.... 

     

    Just a thought... how about we see the class first before we cry for nerfs and how it should be... meaning lets see Vr's take on it first


    This post was edited by Nytman at October 27, 2018 8:43 AM PDT
    • 122 posts
    November 1, 2018 10:52 AM PDT

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

    • 223 posts
    November 2, 2018 5:11 AM PDT
    @Nytman i just want a balance to it, I my self are going to play an enchanter. And want the option to play around with the charm makanic too. But with some limits, Pantheon is a social game if one enchanter with he's healer mate can plow through any content with a perma charmed pet. I would say there are a problem.

    Let's see how VR ends up doing it, hopefully we all are pleased.
    • 62 posts
    November 2, 2018 5:46 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

     

    Oh so in the streams you think they come off as being to powerful? Tell me how you come to this conclusion? Have you seen them use charm? I sure have not so tell me how you arrived at this.......

     

    Do they do more damage than a wizard? can they be a tank better than the tanks? How are they so powerful? what because they have control spells like a cc class should? because they give mana to there team?Tell me how you know this?


    This post was edited by Nytman at November 2, 2018 5:58 PM PDT
    • 62 posts
    November 2, 2018 5:53 PM PDT

    BamBam said: @Nytman i just want a balance to it, I my self are going to play an enchanter. And want the option to play around with the charm makanic too. But with some limits, Pantheon is a social game if one enchanter with he's healer mate can plow through any content with a perma charmed pet. I would say there are a problem. Let's see how VR ends up doing it, hopefully we all are pleased.

    Totally understand where you are coming from.... My view point on classes is that it should be fun for the person to play to keep them interested in the game... I just hate when I hear people start trying to nerf things to the point of ... I have a stick and you have a stick .... I hit you for 1 point of damage then you hit me for the same.... not fun at all.... Not trying to say that in any way that you are saying this I just want to try and stop the nerf bat....

    Plus.... if there is an ability and its just so godly and it needs corections fine but i would rather see it done slowly and with thought so we do not get flavor of the month classes.....

    classes you play needs to be fun and engaging first and formost......

    • 122 posts
    November 2, 2018 9:44 PM PDT

    Nytman said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

     

    Oh so in the streams you think they come off as being to powerful? Tell me how you come to this conclusion? Have you seen them use charm? I sure have not so tell me how you arrived at this.......

     

    Do they do more damage than a wizard? can they be a tank better than the tanks? How are they so powerful? what because they have control spells like a cc class should? because they give mana to there team?Tell me how you know this?

    They released many abliities for all the classes. That is what I was basing my opinion on. Not gameplay footage that has not been created or shared yet. Unresistable mezzes, permanent charms, these are both listed abilities. A class that single handedly lets a group fight many more enemies while also increasing the damage output of members via haste, and increasing how frequently they can kill enemies via mana regen buffs, and also doing their own damage via a pet and nukes is extremely potent. With such a ludicrously powerful toolset I can only hope they end up properly balanced but I can't really see that being possible.

    You don't have to be better then all other classes at their primary party role to be overpowered. You just need to bring too much to the table yourself and that is what the enchanter seems to do currently with the listed abilities. But I guess we can agree to disagree. 

    • 62 posts
    November 3, 2018 7:36 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Nytman said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

     

    Oh so in the streams you think they come off as being to powerful? Tell me how you come to this conclusion? Have you seen them use charm? I sure have not so tell me how you arrived at this.......

     

    Do they do more damage than a wizard? can they be a tank better than the tanks? How are they so powerful? what because they have control spells like a cc class should? because they give mana to there team?Tell me how you know this?

    They released many abliities for all the classes. That is what I was basing my opinion on. Not gameplay footage that has not been created or shared yet. Unresistable mezzes, permanent charms, these are both listed abilities. A class that single handedly lets a group fight many more enemies while also increasing the damage output of members via haste, and increasing how frequently they can kill enemies via mana regen buffs, and also doing their own damage via a pet and nukes is extremely potent. With such a ludicrously powerful toolset I can only hope they end up properly balanced but I can't really see that being possible.

    You don't have to be better then all other classes at their primary party role to be overpowered. You just need to bring too much to the table yourself and that is what the enchanter seems to do currently with the listed abilities. But I guess we can agree to disagree. 

    By all means you can have your opinion but we still do not know for certain.... I am looking forward to seeing what VR does for enchanters and I hope they make it fun and engaging for enchanters....


    This post was edited by Nytman at November 3, 2018 9:39 AM PDT
    • 52 posts
    November 22, 2018 7:28 PM PST

    Cast spell Illusion: Troll

    What I'm hearing is "I couldn't play a chanter and dont wanna see those beast players in Pantheon!"

    Remove illusion.