Forums » The Enchanter

Charmed Mobs

    • 98 posts
    August 30, 2018 9:24 AM PDT

    I hope they follow a simple formula for charmed mobs. Like x ( reasonably low number so as not to be overshadow PC dps in conjunction with other enchanter damage) dps per level of the mob. Don't let the charmed mobs keep special abilities and other things. Simply make it be an extra dps source for the enchanter while it is charmed. this way charm can still be a cc, but it is a cc that can do damage to other targets in fights while at the same time not completely overshadowing dps classes with dps. 

    • 109 posts
    September 1, 2018 6:57 AM PDT

    The issue commonly brought up is that DPS tend to compare Enchanters to their own ability to perform damage. Enchanters have Charm yes, but a lot of the dps comes in the form of Melee Hastes, Spell Hastes, Mana Regen, Mana Replenishment (Ench Nuke), DOTs as well as Nukes. They being a force multiplier are going to be stronger when there's more people in a group. Thus, if it's a full group it won't be surprising if they overshadow the damage of a single DPS class. It's when they are solo or in a small group taking on content that won't require their CC function is when they fade.

    They can also slow a mobs attack speed, cast speed, reduce total damage that mob can do directly (which stacks with slow), decrease their melee stats, silence them, PBAE stun and mez them. These things to include charm reduce the damage being done to the target which falls into the Healer domain now. Enchanters have their hands in everything in the group which is why they tend to be the central figure. Bards when they are released will very likely fit the same role as they are listed as the Support/Control Archetype.

    Here's the issue with Enchanter's though and Bards for instance. DPS classes can stack, meaning if one DPS is in the group, you are at 100% dps not counting the damage done by the tank, healer or control/support. If you add another DPS you're now at 200%. If you did that with an Enchanter, it would be 100% of dps for a single Enchanter, then if you add a second Enchanter, that Enchanter now adds 40% more dps. 200% is more than 140%. Even if you consider that a single Enchanter provides more dps than a single DPS class when deciding on who to add in the 6th slot, you won't pick a second Enchanter over a second DPS, you just won't. 

    As for Charm, I made myself very vocal to the developers and the community how I would like to see Charm. While Shock & Awe can remain as is, Charm itself should have a reduced power curve, say 70-80% depending on balance. Then if that charm becomes permanent, it's further reduced to 50-60%. Shock & Awe is basically a short term charm that turns the mob against its allies but isn't directly controlled and I feel can remain at 100%.


    This post was edited by Janus at September 1, 2018 7:02 AM PDT
    • 466 posts
    September 27, 2018 4:48 AM PDT

    Charem soloing.  I loved it.  I never had a perma-charmed pet before and I am not sure I would want it.  A real charm solo'er would charm a mob, have it beat on another mob, throw a few nukes into the kill, and then charm a different mob - setting it on the first charmed mob which is now at half health.  You keep repeating this process.  Charm a new mob every kill.  Didn't bother buffing etc.  Just let the mobs do what they do - kill each other and carefully manipulate who you have control of.

    Some folks call that OP.  I just told you how I did it and how rewarding it was.  I had NO issues in PoP.  But there is a downside that most folks never talk about.  It takes you longer to do this solo.  You do NOT get as much XP/loot as anyone in a group.  It takes a lot more time.  Mobs did in fact break their charm.  Now you have two mobs on you.  But as an enchanter you pop AE stun, mezz, mezz, charm the healthiest one, break mezz, target the other and get back to it.  And if there is a resist in there anywhere you are dead.  As an Enchanter/Illy in EQ and EQ2 I was always near teh top for a number of things.  Kills, money, loot, etc.  But I was always near, or even at the top, for another thing.  Deaths.  No one died as much as me.  With great risk comes great reward.  I seriously doubt that there was anyone that was de-leveled more than me.

    Enchanters are NOT DPS mages.  They never have been.  In fact, they have always been the low man in the mage's class.  Even in times when the mage catagory were considered the top tier for DPS, an ENC would still be out-DPSd by scouts.  We bring buffs to the game.  This increases the overall value of every group-mate.  Of course when folks start parsing out the DPS they boast of how well they did and how they are awesome without realizing that so much of their damage came from the buffs by the Ench.

    Historically, Enchs have always needed some help with their own DPS.  They are not that great (or at least not nearly as good at it as other mage class characters).  But it is designed that way for a reason.  They have a LOT more to offer a group than anyone else.  I had a LOT more groups deny pet-charming while grouping than EVER agreed to it.  Charming a pet is almost always a solo functrion.  Other players just do not seem to want to deal with it.

    Some folks will point out that this is not a solo-type game.  It is designed for grouping.  I think they used to say something like 20/60/20 solo/group/raid?  I don't recall.  But still - there is that 20%.  Enchanters dont have much by way of solo DPS and pet charming is there to help make up for it.  Let's get some testing done before we talk about the perma-charm.  We still don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

    • 2 posts
    October 4, 2018 11:13 PM PDT

    "But there has to be limits to the fun."  What the hell doe this mean BamBam?  I want to have as much fun as I can. That is what I pay for. Why are people so worried about other palyers "fun"?  As long as the class does not have abilites that can ruin another players fun I really dont care. I can always roll one of them and play it if I want to.  I agreed with the SK, cleric, and Ranger nerfs that signifactly reudece thier abilty to swarm and HS scads of mobs.  I played them all back in that day. It was troubbling that someone could pull a whole dungeon sectrion and solo it. Vacuming up mobs others may have needed for a quest or some such.  I think the devs in EQ did the right thing in nerfing it.

     

    THe comments are based on years playing an Enchanter in EQ

    You guys are talking about ruining a whole class so it cannot solo. Pets 5 - 10 levels below them! Are you kidding me? They will not be able to tank anything and just become a short term dot for root rooting or nuking. People will drop the class and go wizard or necro for that. THis idea couldn't have come someone who has played an EQ enchanter to any degree. You will ruin the class with such dumb ideas.

    Enchanters in EQ who charm have to be very skilled.  You are juggling something that wants to kill you about every 7 minutes or so. Buff the biotch adn its even more dangerous. The higher you go the more dangerous it gest as more mobs can stun and interupt and hit for a ton of damage. They are not a way to power level and are  not faster Exp then a group. THey actually are slow compared to groups or say kiters.  I do box mine with a cleric but my ranger boxed with my cleric kills far faster. Enchanters charm for the challenge and to have some way to effectively solo when undable to find a group.  Having a group centric game is great but there will be times with no group is available...what do you do then?

    A good group with a monk can break most camps in their level range pretty easily. They do not need CC.  Mana pots make up for the mana regen buff or they have a pocket enchanter they log in just for the mana regen buff. The Enchanter has less dps then the wizard and other casting classes as its strength and need from a group is its CC ability. Why take an enchater is such a group? Get another Wizard or rogue. YOu need more dps and the enchanter will not bring you that. A charmed pet adds nothing to such a group other then risk and delay as the enchanter has to wrange the damn thing every few minutes.

    Because they are weak, Enchanters suck at soloing without charm.  You cant root rot or root nuke as an an enchanter as well as the dot classes and pure nuking classes.  To solo, they need an effective charm pet. Not the weak ass pet they get in EQ for example that is rarely used after level 5.

    Use the EQ Enchanter as the model. It is not an easy class to play correctly. Its is why there are so few of them on EQ servers compared to other classes.  If you want this class to get played, it needs unique abilites and an effective way to solo to some degree.

    I dont charm in a group as it slows the group down and puts it at extra risk. A charm break during a pull could wipe the group.  It ties up some of the enchanters attention when he needs to be fighting or CC for the group.  

    I think the EQ Enchanter is very well balanced and should be used as a model.

     

    Worry about 5 enchanters and a cleric?  Better worry about 6 sumoners or kiting rangers/druids instead! Nerf them!

    Oh ya, don't mess with my fun as long as its not hurting yours!

    • 326 posts
    October 5, 2018 8:30 AM PDT

    ^ No

    If you can charm something that takes a group to kill and it retain all of its stats, that is a problem. If the enchanter pet can tank better, and do more dps than the other classes of their respective role, then it is a problem.

    Playing an enchanter isn't hard. If you have a druid there to snare your pet and root the other mobs it is practically impossible for you to die. When the hole opened up the only viable option in going down there and killing the undead and doing well is with 2 enchanters with blue golems. Those golems had an insane amount of hp and hit like a truck. Is there risk, yea. But not enough to deter the play style at all. The tanks back then, and dps, couldnt hold a candle to an enchanter pet. Later on they nerfed raid zones to where most mobs in that zone were immuned to charm, but not until luclin era.

     

    As it was said previously, Enchanters are a CC role, not a dps roll, or tanking roll, thanks to their pet. Btw we aren;t advocating for enchanters to not have charm, but the pet needs to be nerfed signifcantly. 

    • 5 posts
    October 8, 2018 12:17 PM PDT

    Let's not start by nerfing the Enchanter so soon!

    • 197 posts
    October 10, 2018 12:15 AM PDT

    Hi everyone and thanks for a great discussion! 
    Please keep it up, with your comments and ideas.

    @Temijin1 when i said "But there has to be limits to the fun." i ment that it has to be balanced so Enchanters wont be dps, tank and cc roll in one class.

    This threat is not about ruining The Enchanter or breaking your B***s. Its about balance. I asked the community for their ideas, on how to balance a difficult skill => The Charm mekanic. Because its a mekanic that can make or break the game. It can ruin The summoner class in an instant if the charmed pets are to strong, it can make dps classes feel lackluster, it can make the tanks want to go afk /dance instead of playing the actual game. 

    If one class can preform 3 roles, there must be a balance to it. A lot of people want to be "the top dog" in games and dont mind rolling away from their prefered class, to play the class that has a broken mekanic. You see it in WoW, Eq, Mobas and even in Cs even the AWP guy wating to 1 shot you. We want to do good in the games, so we use the tools there is at hand, sometimes the tools are to good. Its the devs job to balance these tools, so the playing field is somewhat even. 

    Why do i care what other ppl do? I care because it affects the game in general, the grp dynamic, the economy, the balance of content and it waves on into items, other calss skills, npc skills and boss fights.
    Why do i want to take away fun? A balanced game with no broken mekanics, is way more fun in my eyes and i hope thats the way VR are going. 

    When thats said i hope and expect VR to find this balance sweet spot. and give us a fun Enchanter class, that can shine in grps and be abel to solo and preform in smaller grps and duos, with a charmed pet or not. 

    Have a great day!
    Upwards and onwards friends!