Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord flex Tank/DPS class?

    • 470 posts
    December 21, 2018 11:03 AM PST

    Khraag said: It's annoying if you simply can't have 2 tanks in the group because they would be useless and you are forced to discard any other tank that are coming their way.

    Having multiple tanks in a group can actually be totally viable because it can allow the group to use a more AoE style tactic. Instead of pulling 1 or 2 enemies and have the one tank keep their attention as the dps kill them 1 by 1, they could instead pull 4 enemies and have each Tank deal with 2 of them and let the dps throw out their AoE abilities, killing all 4 at once. This can compensate for not having a Crowd Control class in the group.

    This group might also benefit from a healer who is more focused on AoE healing, thus allowing him to keep double tanks topped up easier.

    • 347 posts
    December 21, 2018 11:58 PM PST
    I think two tanks should be able to work, but I also totally agree with Khraag hoping the DL can fit a dps role if they make deliberate dps choices ability and gear-wise. It'd be more fun to have the flexibility, and, come on, the DL is like a Sith blood warrior, some dps makes sense for them.
    • 1438 posts
    December 22, 2018 3:14 PM PST

    No game would be healthy with multi role classes, as either single role classes would feel gimped (either tanks or damage dealers) or the multi-role class would be unefffective in both and feel useless.

    • 95 posts
    December 22, 2018 6:16 PM PST

    I think anytime you would want two tanks in a non raid situation you would be better off with two healers in fact I can already see 2 healers being a much needed solution for the hard bosses. I could only imagine two tanks being useful in very unique situations where one tank can just not take all the damage, maybe tons of mobs that are CC resistant or a two bosses at once type fight. The only other time is if you have no other choice but two tanks because that is all there is haha.

    • 518 posts
    January 2, 2019 8:19 AM PST

    "Flex DPS" (as the O.P. stated) doesn't mean "DPS role".  Flex DPS means when a better suited class if fulfilling a role, the class can perform DPS - albiet not as good as the classes designed for that role as their primary goal.  Like if a group had a cleric, a druid or shaman could focus their efforts on DPS (flex DPS) instead of conserving mana/cooldowns for healing.  A better way to explain flex rolling is the commonly used "Off-Tank" term.  Flex tanking means they can tank, but not as well as classes specifically designed to tank.  The monk has the role of Flex Tank.  I think the O.P.'s concern was that the DL will likely be less likely to be the preferred tank when there is another tank available, so bringing a DL along as a class that could Flex between tank and DPS would be more appealing than bringing along a secondary tank that may not even be able to primary tank a large percentage of the content.  It will be safe to say that the enchanter will be a flex DPS if there is no need for hard CC, or if there is another CC role (like Bard) in the group.  @Damacon made a good point in saying that it may be more beneficial to have two healers over two tanks unless a specific mechanic requires it... (especially when you have synergy between classes like shaman and druid) and if you were going to have two tanks, you would likely have two warrios so that they could use their abilities together to protect the whole group or perhaps link their HP/AC together, sharing damage or coordinating formations and banners. 

    With that said, the devs have said that they intend on the DL being a fully capable main tank... so they should be desireable to groups as primary tanks without having to bring any other roles to the group.  I am still personally reluctant to believe that for non-trivial content, but we will have to wait and see what end game has to offer once the game has been live for several months.  If combat data is accessable to the users, you can bet that some players will absolutely do the parsing on their own during live because some people seem to enjoy doing that now days.  That will likely be a long time after the game goes live.  As much as we want the game to be "organic" there will be people that crunch numbers, and those numbers will become unavoidable public knowledge.  There will be no escaping the theorycrafting and elitist mentality on any PC MMO. 

    Pick your class for RP purposes, and/or prepare to see all kinds of critiquing regardless of the legitimacy of the critiques (especially if a class ends up unable to outperform others with the same "primary" role while NOT being able to offer flex dps or great utility like resurrection/heals/cooldown resets/redicrect damage/spell haste/attack haste etc etc etc). 


    This post was edited by Darch at January 2, 2019 8:20 AM PST
    • 7 posts
    January 2, 2019 1:59 PM PST

    "Flex DPS" (as the O.P. stated) doesn't mean "DPS role".  Flex DPS means when a better suited class if fulfilling a role, the class can perform DPS - albiet not as good as the classes designed for that role as their primary goal.  Like if a group had a cleric, a druid or shaman could focus their efforts on DPS (flex DPS) instead of conserving mana/cooldowns for healing.  A better way to explain flex rolling is the commonly used "Off-Tank" term.  Flex tanking means they can tank, but not as well as classes specifically designed to tank.  The monk has the role of Flex Tank.  I think the O.P.'s concern was that the DL will likely be less likely to be the preferred tank when there is another tank available, so bringing a DL along as a class that could Flex between tank and DPS would be more appealing than bringing along a secondary tank that may not even be able to primary tank a large percentage of the content.  It will be safe to say that the enchanter will be a flex DPS if there is no need for hard CC, or if there is another CC role (like Bard) in the group.  

     

    Yeah that is exactly what i meant Darch :) It was a simple observation that, out of the 3 tanks, it seems the DL is the one with most flex for DPS due to their current abilities.

    Also, glad this thread has become an interesting topic of conversation lol


    This post was edited by Youngwisetail at January 2, 2019 2:15 PM PST
    • 301 posts
    January 2, 2019 4:35 PM PST

    I'm okay with the Dire Lord being a slightly inferior tank at the benefit of being able to bring more DPS to the group than the other tanks. Could be rewarding for those players/groups wanting more of a challenge with the benefit of skillfully clearing some content faster.

    • 1438 posts
    January 3, 2019 2:17 AM PST

    TBH the paladin with two handers and increased damage & crit chance against undead, hymn restoring Wrath on damage spenders seems fitting the same flexibility as the Direlord.

    • 518 posts
    January 4, 2019 7:04 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    TBH the paladin with two handers and increased damage & crit chance against undead, hymn restoring Wrath on damage spenders seems fitting the same flexibility as the Direlord.

    I agree

    • 7 posts
    January 4, 2019 8:55 AM PST

    TBH the paladin with two handers and increased damage & crit chance against undead, hymn restoring Wrath on damage spenders seems fitting the same flexibility as the Direlord.

     

    Only aganist Undead. So not the same flexibility. 

    • 1438 posts
    January 4, 2019 10:56 AM PST

    Youngwisetail said:

    TBH the paladin with two handers and increased damage & crit chance against undead, hymn restoring Wrath on damage spenders seems fitting the same flexibility as the Direlord.

     

    Only aganist Undead. So not the same flexibility. 

     

    Not everything is undead related :

     

    The two handed weapon is not undead related, neither the hymn is. Both are strong offensive options when incoming damage is not an issue. How much it gives in the end, and by how margin will it sacrifice tankyness is another question, but that enables different style of play depending of the encounters and needs.

    • 16 posts
    January 10, 2019 5:44 AM PST

    At high level having a two handed weapon without having specific skills to deal high damage with it probably won't be a big DPS increase so...
    I don't think the paladin looks to be a good offensive option when not attacking Undeads.

    Not to mention he is able to wear plate armor and had limited heal abilities? if he has better DPS than the direlord that would just ridiculous, why bother playing the DL then?

    • 181 posts
    February 24, 2019 2:42 PM PST

     If the dire lord is an inferior tank (inferior mitigation) then it better do superior damage or bring some really good utility. Otherwise the class will be overlooked whenever a paladin or warrior is available. Like Khraag says why play direlord if paladins and warriors can do just as much DPS yet can wear plate?

    • 157 posts
    February 24, 2019 6:46 PM PST

    Let's say they take 15% more total (physical only) damage than a warrior - due to chainmail. If you breakdown the numbers a bit, a 500dmg hit on a warrior would be 575dmg to a Dire Lord. 700dmg hit would be 805dmg, 1000dmg is 1150dmg and so on. What do you think max HP values would be at level cap? 3k? 4k? 5k? Lets say they are around 4000hp to make it easy. Also, let's say a single-group raid boss hits for 1200dmg (max hit) on a warrior - which is ~1400dmg to a Dire Lord. So about a 200dmg difference for the class mitigation differences - which as we said based off HP, that is 5% of the DL's total health. Dire Lords can heal for 12% (over time) and 25% (instant) of their max HP pool on short cooldown melee attacks. As you can see the increased physical damage received is far outweighed (most likely*) by the self-healing they can produce.

    Pretty sure that more than makes up for the "inferior mitigation" that the class will have for wearing chain. Plus, we haven't even scratched the surface on the spell damage reduction CD's they have. As far as damage, they will probably have the edge (lol pun) on critical damage. For all of the tank classes, it will depend on how you gear (which actual stat you want the most) for total DPS. I figure all 3 tanks classes will be relatively similar base dps.

    • 4 posts
    March 14, 2019 4:45 PM PDT

    I would say the sweet spot for DL would be about similar tanking to Paladin but not as well as Warrior, while DPS would be on the lower end of other pure DPS classes but he could still be a viable alternate. 

     

    Being able to have those Magical Barriars / Utility abilities would make him a viable pure DPS alternate due to our class bringing more than just damage to the group. 

     

    If anyone played WoW, I would say our DPS should be as good as Cat DPS was back in Vanilla while being able to transfer over into Tank mode but not be able to survive as well without being geared for it in the moment. 

     

    It's going to be a definite sweet spot to not make us too weak / too strong in any moment. 

    • 518 posts
    March 16, 2019 12:21 PM PDT

    Khraag said:

    At high level having a two handed weapon without having specific skills to deal high damage with it probably won't be a big DPS increase so...
    I don't think the paladin looks to be a good offensive option when not attacking Undeads.

    Not to mention he is able to wear plate armor and had limited heal abilities? if he has better DPS than the direlord that would just ridiculous, why bother playing the DL then?

    Pommel and Cross, Edict of Celestial Authority (and Lightguard on a tanking paladin) + Fervent Strike will make a Paladin an absolute crit machine... the Paladin also has spell attacks.  Its hard to say at this time either way but I will say that since this is not a game based on PvP, classes aren't going to be perfectly balanced between roles; expect some classes to be stronger/weaker than others with the same role.  (That doesn't mean they'll be incapable... just weaker).

    Add:  To answer you question of "why bother playing the DL", I would say for the roleplay and gameplay of the class.  I would strongly suggest having gameplay and roleplay high in your priority list in PRotF when choosing a class because the road to end game is long and you should enjoy the ride.


    This post was edited by Darch at March 16, 2019 12:28 PM PDT
    • 486 posts
    March 20, 2019 5:39 PM PDT

    DL intrigues me personally. I don't usually role a Tank as a main, I prefer DPS. But a chain wearing Tank? Sounds pretty sweet to me. Also the siphoning of health on your output of damage is a fun thought to have. My brother whom will play PRotF as a Healer will "mother -insert here-" me almost always and i will get a kick out of it. Going back to my experiences in EQ1 I just do not feel  a Tank should be able to do the damage a pure DPS class should do. Nor do i think that a DPS class should Tank like a Tank should. I played a paper tank (ranger) in EQ1. I got by tanking with a group of friends, but it definitely wasn't ideal for the Healer because she would spend more than twice the amount of time medding than if a War/Pal/SK were tanking instead.

    • 9 posts
    May 3, 2019 7:04 PM PDT

    Dire Lord is definitely an interesting class (I too used to play an Iksar Shadow Knight in EQ1). I think it is really too early to worry about plate or non-plate for this class until we know more about its abilities.

    Frankly I would be happy just to get something like good old Shadow Vortex to use to pull mobs.