Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord flex Tank/DPS class?

    • 79 posts
    November 14, 2018 4:15 PM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    While I can understand your opinions on this matter, ....

     

    I know what the game is currently. I did not just register yesterday.  If you had read my post in its entirety you would have noticed that I did state that the 3 specs would probably never be part of this game and it was a moot point to discuss.  That said there is no reason why the DL or any other tank class should not be able to in some way shape or form switch from tank to dps, and I am not talking about obtaining dps oriented gear. I am talking about a true class mechanic built for exactly that. This is reasonable in within the realm of the possible. 

    When I originally backed this game I was expecting more along the lines of Vanguard classes new and innovative. Now while their take on the DL is new and somewhat innovative, basically a Rift Reaver/Void Knight as opposed to a basic Shadow Knight. The entirety of the class line up is pretty generic, no matter how different they make the abilities.  

    I understand I am in the minority when I say this, but I wanted something new and exciting out of the class line up. I would prefer not to have the same old EQ classes. Thus far the DL is the only class that has stepped outside of the old school EQ mold.  I felt since the OP brought up the discussion of FLEX why not expand on it. 

    I watched Cohh's video and listened to the dev's talk about the DL. The thing that stuck out most was the Dev comment about how it was exhilarating to see the DL's life pool fluctuate more than the other to tanks and how it presented a chalenge to the DL and healers.  Erratic Health pool spikes does not make for a good tank. Understand, this is pre-alpha a lot will change before release. But, to hear the joy and enthusiasm in the Dev's voice about Erratic Health Pool Spikes on a tank class, has gotten me a little on edge about the DL being able to hold the MT position. So if it is ROLE locked as a Tank/Utility and outside of Caster Bosses is always going to play second fiddle to War or Pal as OT then it really does need to do more than just tank. So if the DL is only to talk portions of a raid encounter it needs to be useful when not tanking as the OT. It needs to be on par with DPS classes or it needs to be on par with Utility. Currently, the DL has neither the DPS or the Utility.

    Ok fine the DL doesn't get a true DPS form, I am fine with that, but it needs improvement in the utility department then. 

    Let's look at the DL's current utility...

    Dire Mark: You mark a member of your group. Whenever that group member takes damage, X% of that damage will be redirected to you. 

    This ability screams OT, in a raid setter you are putting this on the MT all the time. 

     

    Grip of Torment: Infiltrate your enemy's essence and turn it against them, obstructing any healing from benefiting that enemy for the duration of the effect. 

    Good for Bosses that have a self-healing mechanic. 

     

    Leaden Blood: You cause your enemy's essence to grow thick and heavy, weighing them to the ground and preventing movement. 

    Good for fleeing trash or boss encounter where adds have a fixate mechanic. 

     

    Canopy of Blood: You release nearly all of the blood in your veins, sacrificing 25% of your health to create a covering that renders all within X meters of you immune to magical effects for a short time.

    Good overall anti-magic dome for the group, but not really a good MT utility ability especially on a Tank that has an erratic spikey health pool. 

     

    Deafening Whisper - You bombard your opponent's imagination with frightening possibilities, silencing them for a short time.

    Actually good if the dev's let it fly on Raid Bosses - an extra hate component to this ability also seems fitting. 

     

    Sanguine Blade: A blood-laced attack that makes your enemy more susceptible to magical damage and drains a small portion of their mana.

    Probably the best utility out of all the above, if it is able to be kept up for the full duration of the encounter.  If this is anything like the WoW Demon Hunter's +5% Magic Damage then the DL will be brought to every raid regardless, if nothing more than to keep that debuff up. 

     

    While Sanguine Blade almost guarantees the DL a spot in the Raid, Dark Mark and Canopy of Blood push the DL towards a near automatic OT position helping the MT and party members stay alive. The one CC ability will probably be held for that oh **** every other classes CC is on cooldown. The Silence probably won't be usable on raid bosses, if it is won't be more than an interrupt.  The prevent heal could prove very useful, but how often. 

    While the class may very well be hella fun to play, I just don't see currently how it shines in its main role as MT. Erratic Spikey Health pool, coupled with two Utility Abilities that benefit another MT more than the DL itself strongly pushes the DL into an OT position where its primary focus is to keep that Magic Dmg debuff up on the boss and to take damage away from the MT when needed. 

     

    If it is to remain in this state, it needs one of two things, the capability to match DPS or better overall utility. 

     

    Also the DL will never be in the MT line-up for any encounter that requires tank swap because currently it has no snap agro ability such as the Paladins Incite or Warriors Taunt. Which also kind of makes it crappy OT. Just saying ;)

     


    This post was edited by xaices at November 14, 2018 4:47 PM PST
    • 2290 posts
    November 14, 2018 6:52 PM PST

    xaices said:

    Erratic Health pool spikes does not make for a good tank.

    ...

    This is only true when those spikes can mean 100% to death in seconds with no means to mitigate it. Considering the Dire Lord has two known abilities (keep in mind we only have a sampling of their full kit) that restore huge chunks of HP, they will be more than fine main tanking anything. One is 12% of their max hp over 4 seconds (on an 8 second cooldown) and the other is a massive 25% of their max HP instantly (on a 15 second cooldown). Within 60 seconds time a DL can heal 186% of their max HP...that seems like pretty solid mitigation before any other skills/abilities are even counted.

    • 79 posts
    November 14, 2018 11:47 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    xaices said:

    Erratic Health pool spikes does not make for a good tank.

    ...

    This is only true when those spikes can mean 100% to death in seconds with no means to mitigate it. Considering the Dire Lord has two known abilities (keep in mind we only have a sampling of their full kit) that restore huge chunks of HP, they will be more than fine main tanking anything. One is 12% of their max hp over 4 seconds (on an 8 second cooldown) and the other is a massive 25% of their max HP instantly (on a 15 second cooldown). Within 60 seconds time a DL can heal 186% of their max HP...that seems like pretty solid mitigation before any other skills/abilities are even counted.

    I just want to clarify self-healing is not mitigation.  Now if that self-healing could be accrued into an overheal pool then yes it could be considered mitigation as the overheal health pool would take the brunt of the damage before the actual health pool begins depletion, in sorts, it would be kind of like a shield. If the encounters are slow, yes these self-heals should suffice, take a big hit recover, take a big hit recover. It would really depend on boss encounter; how often and for how much the tank takes damage.  Maybe not as obvious as one would think, but a raid boss is more than likely going to hit often enough and hard enough to require healers to sustain the tank. Now the DL may not be best suited on some encounters where they are being constantly bombarded by high damage physical based attacks.  Now the DL while in mail armor may not be able to mitigate as much physical damage it does have the advantage against magic based attacks which historically is a large percentage of Raid Boss abilities. So yes if the boss encounter was largely magic based and boss ability cycle was gapped enough for the reactionary self-healing play style then yes the DL would make a suitable MT. However, in any encounter where it requires a MT/MA tank swap the DL has to be excluded because it simply cannot snap agro.  Now it has been quite some time since I have played one of McQuaid's games (Vanguard), but if I remember correctly there was a lot of tank swapping.  While I don't currently main a tank, I do play an alt Blood DK in WoW and when my guild is not beating their heads against a wall on Mythic Progression we have an alt night for fun and I have tanked my Blood DK through Normal and Heroic Raid progress. In all the games and all the expansions I have tanked in, the majority of raid bosses have a swap mechanic. Now this may not be the case in Pantheon, maybe all the bosses are going to be single tank fights and the MT will be chosen on a case by case basis depending on the bosses arsenal.  However, I don't believe that will be the case.

    In a raid scenario, the DL under the current design is not always going to be  MT. Now I am not saying that is a bad thing, I actually like the idea of needing more than one end all be all MT.  However, the DL is as I see it limited in its range of encounters. The encounter cannot be largely physical based. The encounter couldn't be comprised of segments of large powerful rapid successive strikes. The encounter couldn't involve any swap mechanics. 

    So really the DL is restricted to tank and spank magic based boss encounters. Now that is not to say a good DL couldn't tank other encounters, it just would not be the most optimal tank.  Unfortunately, raid progression lends to putting the most optimal team together for any given fight. It's going to be hit or miss depending on the encounters in any given raid. 

    As I stated I really like the idea of having a team of tanks where there is not one end all be all MT. The way the tanks in Pantheon are playing out is that every raid boss encounter is really going to have to be tailored towards a specific tank composition. One fight might require just a warrior, another fight might require a Paladin and Dire Lord, etc etc. That, in my opinion, is good. However, the tank or tanks not needed to fill the Tank role in that specific encounter need to bring something else to the table other than mediocre dps or subpar utility. 

     

     

    This might be a bad example but here is currently what is happening in WoW. In normal and heroic progression a few of the bosses only require one tank, any tank really. Now since a second tank is not needed the tank that is not needed switches over to their DPS spec and puts on their DPS spec gear. If anyone is following WoW they would know that obtaining two sets of gear with optimal stats and gear talents is extremely time-consuming, most cannot even get one optimal set let alone two.  To further this true Mythic Progression raid teams are taking this one step further. Now in Mythic Progression in WoW, two tanks are required for all fights as the mechanics per encounter change. So what is happening is that all classes are being swapped in and out depending on encounters. This includes Tanks, DPS, and Healers, so Mythic Progression teams players have one or two characters per player and they swap out depending on the encounter. This means Mythic progression raid teams players are leveling and obtaining gear for two characters, in the least, the lucky ones are only leveling one toon but still need to acquire two sets of gear. 

    I kind of see the same thing happening in Pantheon. If the DL or any tank for that matter is not needed for that specific encounter, the raid team would be better off having those tanks log out and switch to a class that would be more of a benefit to the raid. 

     

    Now maybe the DL doesn't have to be swapped out because they bring that +% magic damage debuff. The warrior may not have to be swapped out because of his banners. However, as a person who is playing either a DL or Warrior don't you want do more than debuff or plant banners if your not the MT/MA. Realistically, with out a snap agro ability the DL isn't going to make a good OT either. That add that gets loose and is beating the hell of that healer, hate over time just might not cut it, that healer might end up dead before the DL generates enough hate. 

     

    Long winded and all but I kind of agree with the direction the OP was heading with this thread. The tanks not tanking need to bring more to the table when not MT/MA or even OT for that matter. 

    • 470 posts
    November 15, 2018 8:08 AM PST

    Xaices said: I know what the game is currently. I did not just register yesterday. 

    I apologize if I caused offense... My post was not meant to criticize your ideas, or suggest that you didn't know anything about the game. My response was to point out that everything we have been told said that Pantheon was not going to include any of the types of things you were suggesting.

    Xaices said: If you had read my post in its entirety you would have noticed that I did state that the 3 specs would probably never be part of this game and it was a moot point to discuss.

    Yet you did discuss these 'Spec' ideas in great length with many examples and suggestions. Again, my point in responding was not to say that you were wrong, or that these kinds of ideas do not have merit. I was just pointing out that VR has already stated that such ideas have already been decided against. It's not that they hadn't thought about it. They had specifcally made the choice to NOT do that.

    Xaices said: That said there is no reason why the DL or any other tank class should not be able to in some way shape or form switch from tank to dps, and I am not talking about obtaining dps oriented gear. I am talking about a true class mechanic built for exactly that. This is reasonable in within the realm of the possible.

    Of course this is in the realm of possible, just look at all the great games that do it this way. But it's not in the realm of what VR is actually doing, unless they Fundamentally change the direction they have chosen for Pantheon.

    You have said that in your opinion, you like the 'spec' idea and way of doing things more than classes that can only do one thing. This is totally fine for you to like these things. Which is why I specifcally said "I understand your opinions on this matter...". I only wanted to remind everyone that despite how much anyone might like 'spec' changing, Pantheon does not appear to have any plans to ever include 'spec' changing.

    Xaices said: Erratic Health pool spikes does not make for a good tank ... So if it is ROLE locked as a Tank/Utility and outside of Caster Bosses is always going to play second fiddle to War or Pal as OT then it really does need to do more than just tank.

    There is no evidence that a 'spikey' health pool in any way makes them 'Not' a good tank. This has been discussed several times already, and there is no clear evidence that just because a Dire Lords health pool will go up and down as he self heals, that he will be harder to keep alive than either of the other tank classes.

    These assumptions stem from our EQ1 experience where Bosses were capable of 1 shot killing Tanks who did not have enough mitigation. This was how things worked in EQ1 because of the 'Complete Heal' rotations, where Clerics could fully heal the Tank as long as he lived through that round of combat.

    Since Pantheon does not appear to have a 'Complete Heal' type of heal, and we have no idea how damage in Raid encounters is going to play out in Pantheon there is no need to assume that Bosses will be able to 1 shot any of the Tanks. Thus having a Tank who can 'pre-heal' before any Healers heals land may turn out to be an easier (not harder) tank to keep alive.

    But you seem to already know all this...

    Xaices said: If the encounters are slow, yes these self-heals should suffice, take a big hit recover, take a big hit recover. It would really depend on boss encounter; how often and for how much the tank takes damage.

    So I'm seeing that you already are countering your previous statement of 'health pool spikes do not make a good tank'. Since you understand that it totally depends on how VR decides to balance boss encounters.

    So since VR has said "We want ALL tanks to be able to do the Job as a Main Tank." we can postulate that they will likely make efforts to balance boss encounters in such a way that the 'health pool spikes' are not an overwelming weakness making Dire Lords less viable, or desirable.

    Xaices said: However, in any encounter where it requires a MT/MA tank swap the DL has to be excluded because it simply cannot snap agro.

    So I know that this thought comes from the fact that the 'Provoking Phantoms' ability does not say anything about forcing the Target to turn on you as a normal 'Taunt' ability does. Also, in the Dire Lord reveal there is no other Taunt like ability listed. But in watching the Cohh Dire Lord stream, when Provoking Phantoms was used it did seem to instantly snap the agro onto the Dire Lord. If this is not intended, then we will have to see if Dire Lords will have another way to grab 'snap' agro as you refer to it. Perhaps as we get to see more footage from Phase 4 Pre-Alpha we will be able to tell if Provoking Phantoms is indeed acting as a true taunt when it is first applied. Joppa did say that it is meant to only be active on 1 target at a time, so if you apply it to a new target it fades from the first.

    Joppa called this ability a 'Deepening Taunt'. My thoughts are that this ability could work in either of 2 different ways

    1) Once applied it causes a standard taunt that turns the enemy to the Dire Lord, and then slowly applies 'Hate' at a set value at specific intervals. For example it may apply 10 hate every 1 second. So even if the Dire Lord does NO attacks on the target it will still be generating hate over time. This value may also start increasing over time. So for the first 5 seconds it's only applying 10 hate, but then it starts applying 20 hate for the next 5 seconds, and then 30 hate for the next 5 seconds, etc...

    If it worked in this way, the Dire Lord could be building Hate on a target he is not actively focusing his attention on and not doing any other attacks or hate generating abilities.

    2) Once applied it causes a standard taunt that turns the enemy to the Dire Lord. It then causes any effects done by the Dire Lord to generate 'extra' hate above what it normally would. For example if the Dire Lord hits for 100 damage, it normally generates 100 hate. But with the Provoking Phantoms that attack now generates say 10% more 'Hate', in this case 10 more. This 'extra' % hate could increase over time. So the next attack will generate 11% more 'Hate', then the 3rd attack generates 12% more 'Hate', etc...

    If it works in this way, the Dire Lord would still need to be focusing his attention on and using 'Hate' generating abilities in order to generate the extra 'Hate'.

    Xaices said: As I stated I really like the idea of having a team of tanks where there is not one end all be all MT. The way the tanks in Pantheon are playing out is that every raid boss encounter is really going to have to be tailored towards a specific tank composition.

    Joppa did talk about 'Dual Tanking' where Bosses might need to be co-tanked by more than one tank at the same time rather than swaping at various stages of a fight. This would suggest to us that all 3 tank classes will have some way of choosing when/forcing the Target to direct an attack(s) at a specific tank.

    I am imagining a situation where the Enemy consistantly uses both physical and magical attacks interchangably and the Tanks need to actively snap the agro back and forth between them to make sure the most efficient mitigation type is absorbing these attacks.

    Or perhaps it's mearly the fact that the Enemy attacks have a secondary effect that maybe causes a short term armour break effect or some other debilitating negative effect so the Tanks need to swap back and forth constantly so that the one without the debuff is taking the hits. There are lots of ideas...

    Xaices said: If the DL or any tank for that matter is not needed for that specific encounter, the raid team would be better off having those tanks log out and switch to a class that would be more of a benefit to the raid.

    A very valid point, and this is actually something VR will need to keep in mind. When creating raid zones with multiple encounters, there should be a consistancy so that if multi-tanks are required for any encounters... they should stay required throughout the raid zone so that people are not needing to swap out a Tank who is no longer needed for other fights. This of course could apply to healers as well, since some fights may require much more healing than others. VR would need to keep encounters balanced so that you need a standard number of healers across all the raid encounters.

    • 75 posts
    November 15, 2018 8:21 AM PST

    Goofy, do you have any quotes backing up your statement regarding no alternates roles? I have seen stances in the play videos, but it did not seem they had bene fully implemented yet, so not much was shared. I may have missed where it was stated, classes have a clear role and that will always be the role, just with possible varying adjustments based on an encounter. Not saying as a player I require it to be either/or, I just would like to make sure I am understanding confirmed facts to share with others.

    • 745 posts
    November 15, 2018 9:21 AM PST

    Roxxers said:

    Goofy, do you have any quotes backing up your statement regarding no alternates roles? I have seen stances in the play videos, but it did not seem they had bene fully implemented yet, so not much was shared. I may have missed where it was stated, classes have a clear role and that will always be the role, just with possible varying adjustments based on an encounter. Not saying as a player I require it to be either/or, I just would like to make sure I am understanding confirmed facts to share with others.

    While I don't have any direct statements, I think I can help clear this up slightly.

    Initially, the character design philosophy (in 2014 I believe) was to include two distinct specializations for each class.  In other words, there may have been a time where a class could have either specialized as DPS or Tank depending on which line they decided to pursue.  This was later scrapped in order to further solidify the idea of class interdependence.  However, there will be stances for some (all?) classes which will allow for micro adjustments to a class based on group make-up, encounter or even player preference.  At this point, to what degree stances will affect how differently a class plays in relation to another remains to be seen.  If I had to hazard a guess, I would say you might be able to draw comparisons to the Vanguard stance system and draw a reasonable conclusion as to how stances will work.

    • 470 posts
    November 15, 2018 9:30 AM PST

    Roxxers says: Goofy, do you have any quotes backing up your statement regarding no alternates roles?

    I'll do my best to find references in the Videos for you.

    Very quickly....

    There was a question asked about 'sub-classes': Low Level Dungeon Group with CohhCarnage (1:41:46). Cohh explains that there will be no 'Tech Tree or Talent tree where you pick either or'. Aradune agree's and says that while you will never 'sub-class' you will make choices that may individualize your character. Joppa says, "Not decision based in the sense that you have a choice between this ability or this ability."

    They don't specifically refer to not changing 'spec' except Cohh mentioning there will be NO Talent tree system and Brad "Aradune" and Chris "Joppa" both agreeing.

    I'll look more in depth for you later on. I'll also see if I can find any forum posts or blog posts where they explain this.

    You may also want to check out Bazgrim's interview with Joppa about Classes where he specifically explains the roles for all the classes.

    Roxxers says: I have seen stances in the play videos, but it did not seem they had bene fully implemented yet, so not much was shared.

    The stances you may have seen on the Dire Lord video are all still part of his Tanking kit.

    Very basic info -

    Nightmare Blood stance: Generates more Hate.
    Torrential Veins: Higher Health Regen and Essense Generation.
    Essence Leech: Increases Crit chance and Crits Heal you for a % of damage done.

    This does not change him from a Tank, but rather just focuses what thing he wants more of at that moment: Hate, Essense, Heals.

     

    • 518 posts
    November 15, 2018 11:17 AM PST

    TheBus88 said:

    Darch said:

    Iksar said:

    They will be fully capable main tanks and their DPS will not come close to that of DPS classes. 

    Only time will tell - Although you usually have sound reasoning behind your posts I "personally" feel like this comment is based on emotion due to our passion for the game instead of logic based off of what even the devs have mentioned.  Receiving spike damage ("being harder to heal than the other tanks") is not a characteristic that makes a "fully capable main tank".  And we don't know if their DPS will not come close to the DPS classes... if it doesn't, why bother inviting a DL at all since they can't are purposely being designed to take more damage than the other tanks?  If your reasoning for the statement is becuase you are optomistic of changes to come in the future then I can understand that, but in it's current state, the DL is not a "fully capable main tank".

     

    Class descriotion:

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

     

    NOT "Semi Capaable Tank" or "Tankish with near DPS class DPS Tank-lite" or "Magic Based Tank only" or "Might as well invite a Pal or War Tank"

     

    I feel your thinking is based on faulty logic that a "fully capable tank" MUST wear plate or something.

     

    Having played FF11 where there were two tanks-a Paladin that wore plate and a Ninja that didn't, I can say that from experience there are clearly ways to make both work.

     

    Paladins mitigated damage and Ninjas avoided it and having healed both it was easier to work with Ninjas avoiding it than having to constantly heal Paladins but I was fine with both as long as they knew how to play their class.

     

    In Pantheon it looks like something similar and player skill will be the deciding factor, not class.  Plenty of stuff in the DL skills has me (I plan on playing a Druid) not worried at all about healing them and actually thinking I will pair up nicely with them with the Druids regen specific abilities.


    And yes, time will tell but using logic that a tank class that is described as such and with everything they've said about all tanks being able to tank all content isn't emotion, it is trusting the devs of this game to do the job they've said they're going to do, which I assume is why we're all here.......

    My reasoning is actually based on working side by side with SoE devs.  The DL could wear cloth for all I care... if this wasn't a game with core mechanics based off of EQ.  I've played Final Fantasy as a Paladin and Ninja as well, and I assure you, this is absolutely nothing like FF.  Many other games pull off avoidance tanks or self healing tanks all of the time, but not with these mechanics.  Even one of the dev's said during the Dire Lord reveal stream that they were having issues healing the DL due to the significant incoming spike damage being received and that was just in the mid 30s.  People aren't considering that there are numerous factors to consider with EQ's combat mechanics - not just ATK versus AC (which is what people "seem" to think those of us concerned about the DL's low mitigation are solely concerned with).  Character level vs NPC level, level of weapon skill, level of defense skill, rate of riposte/parry/dodge/block of NPC vs character, and then there are the additional misc. things like damage shields, damage immunities, having to tank multiple NPCs until they can be CC'd...  The DL's survivability (aside from needing a healer) has too much of a reliability on consistantly landing attacks on their target in order to compensate their inability to BLOCK, and considerably lower AC from a armor that Shaman wear and the typically high AC provided by shields.  (A ranger or shaman in EQ could "tank" too... for quite a few levels especially if higher level than the NPCs or overgeared for their level (twinked).)  Things that absolutely hard counter the DL mechanic include but are not limited to - block, dodge, parry, immunity; Things that not only hard counter, but are incredibly detrimental include but are not limited to RIPOSTES (dual wielding = death), DAMAGE SHIELDS (dual wielding = death); and lastly but VERY significant are the soft counters to the DL's self heal (with the exception of abysal strike) - they heal for a % of their damage done which means if the NPC is higher level than they are (which will most likely be the case) then their damage (if they even hit without getting hit back) is greatly mitigated if using an RNG equation even remotely similar to EQ which was something like:

    0. check to see if Block skill fired (like monks). if not,
    1. check to see if Riposte fired. if not,
    2. check to see if Parry fired. if not,
    3. check to see if Dodge fired. if not,
    4. check to see if Shield Block fired. if not,
    5. Check to see if the hit lands, or is a 'miss 
    6. Calculate damage versus mitigation

    This was for EVERY swing.  So every swing had a high probability of NOT hitting and then there was a ratio of weapon skill, class level, atk rating and a damage bonus that differed depending on 1h or 2h versus the NPCs AC, Class, and level to determine how much your damage is reduced by (if you even hit).  Mean time you're also getting punched in the face really hard and fast because NPC atk ratio > character atk ratio because they are designed to fight entire parties and offer a challenge (this is also why enchanter charmed pets in EQ were godmode when buffed and why they are nurfing it a bit in PRotF).

    I know people are swearing that "this isn't EQ" but its certainly using VERY similar mechanics and classes... and devs.  So far the only significant difference I see from EQ classes are the DL and RGR, all of the others just have very cool new abilities but ultimately the same classes.  I love the classes, but lets not kid ourselves.

    Trusting the Devs is great and like you said, it is what we are all doing (especially since we have no other choice really), and I trust that they will stick to their word as best they can - but the devs have emphasized many many times that the classes (including tanks) WILL NOT be equal.  I too agree that the Druid will likely be the best healer paired with the DL's self heals (as well as the Paladin's self heals, group heals, higher mitigation, and resurrection).  I'm debating on playing Druid or Enchanter for my first character as well depending on if the Bard is available at release.


    This post was edited by Darch at November 15, 2018 11:57 AM PST
    • 745 posts
    November 15, 2018 11:40 AM PST

    Darch said:

    TheBus88 said:

    Darch said:

    Iksar said:

    They will be fully capable main tanks and their DPS will not come close to that of DPS classes. 

    Only time will tell - Although you usually have sound reasoning behind your posts I "personally" feel like this comment is based on emotion due to our passion for the game instead of logic based off of what even the devs have mentioned.  Receiving spike damage ("being harder to heal than the other tanks") is not a characteristic that makes a "fully capable main tank".  And we don't know if their DPS will not come close to the DPS classes... if it doesn't, why bother inviting a DL at all since they can't are purposely being designed to take more damage than the other tanks?  If your reasoning for the statement is becuase you are optomistic of changes to come in the future then I can understand that, but in it's current state, the DL is not a "fully capable main tank".

     

    Class descriotion:

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

     

    NOT "Semi Capaable Tank" or "Tankish with near DPS class DPS Tank-lite" or "Magic Based Tank only" or "Might as well invite a Pal or War Tank"

     

    I feel your thinking is based on faulty logic that a "fully capable tank" MUST wear plate or something.

     

    Having played FF11 where there were two tanks-a Paladin that wore plate and a Ninja that didn't, I can say that from experience there are clearly ways to make both work.

     

    Paladins mitigated damage and Ninjas avoided it and having healed both it was easier to work with Ninjas avoiding it than having to constantly heal Paladins but I was fine with both as long as they knew how to play their class.

     

    In Pantheon it looks like something similar and player skill will be the deciding factor, not class.  Plenty of stuff in the DL skills has me (I plan on playing a Druid) not worried at all about healing them and actually thinking I will pair up nicely with them with the Druids regen specific abilities.


    And yes, time will tell but using logic that a tank class that is described as such and with everything they've said about all tanks being able to tank all content isn't emotion, it is trusting the devs of this game to do the job they've said they're going to do, which I assume is why we're all here.......

    My reasoning is actually based on working side by side with SoE devs.  The DL could wear cloth for all I care... if this wasn't a game with core mechanics based off of EQ.  I've played Final Fantasy as a Paladin and Ninja as well, and I assure you, this is absolutely nothing like FF.  Many other games pull off avoidance tanks or self healing tanks all of the time, but not with these mechanics.  Even one of the dev's said during the Dire Lord reveal stream that they were having issues healing the DL due to the significant incoming spike damage being received and that was just in the mid 30s.  People aren't considering that there are numerous factors to consider with EQ's combat mechanics - not just ATK versus AC (which is what people "seem" to think those of us concerned about the DL's low mitigation are solely concerned with).  Character level vs NPC level, level of weapon skill, level of defense skill, rate of riposte/parry/dodge/block of NPC vs character, and then there are the additional misc. things like damage shields, damage immunities, having to tank multiple NPCs until they can be CC'd...  The DL's survivability (aside from needing a healer) has too much of a reliability on consistantly landing attacks on their target in order to compensate their inability to BLOCK, and considerably lower AC from a armor that Shaman wear and the typically high AC provided by shields.  (A ranger or shaman in EQ could "tank" too... for quite a few levels especially if higher level than the NPCs or overgeared for their level (twinked).)  Things that absolutely hard counter the DL mechanic include but are not limited to - block, dodge, parry, immunity; Things that not only hard counter, but are incredibly detrimental include but are not limited to RIPOSTES (dual wielding = death), DAMAGE SHIELDS (dual wielding = death); and lastly but VERY significant are the soft counters to the DL's self heal (with the exception of abysal strike) - they heal for a % of their damage done which means if the NPC is higher level than they are (which will most likely be the case) then their damage (if they even hit without getting hit back) is greatly mitigated if using an RNG equation even remotely similar to EQ which was something like:

    0. check to see if Block skill fired (like monks). if not,
    1. check to see if Riposte fired. if not,
    2. check to see if Parry fired. if not,
    3. check to see if Dodge fired. if not,
    4. check to see if Shield Block fired. if not,
    5. Check to see if the hit lands, or is a 'miss 
    6. Calculate damage versus mitigation

    This was for EVERY swing.  So every swing had a higher probability of NOT hitting than hitting and then there was a ratio of weapon skill, class level, atk rating and a damage bonus that differed depending on 1h or 2h versus the NPCs AC, Class, and level to determine how much your damage is reduced by (if you even hit).  Mean time you're also getting punched in the face really hard and fast because NPC atk ratio > character atk ratio because they are designed to fight entire parties and offer a challenge (this is also why enchanter charmed pets in EQ were godmode when buffed and why they are nurfing it a bit in PRotF).

    I know people are swearing that "this isn't EQ" but its certainly using VERY similar mechanics and classes... and devs.  So far the only significant difference I see from EQ classes are the DL and RGR, all of the others just have very cool new abilities but ultimately the same classes.  I love the classes, but lets not kid ourselves.

    Trusting the Devs is great and like you said, it is what we are all doing (especially since we have no other choice really), and I trust that they will stick to their word as best they can - but the devs have emphasized many many times that the classes (including tanks) WILL NOT be equal.  I too agree that the Druid will likely be the best healer paired with the DL's self heals (as well as the Paladin's self heals, group heals, higher mitigation, and resurrection).  I'm debating on playing Druid or Enchanter for my first character as well depending on if the Bard is available at release.

    Despite the rather fervent tone of your response, I have to say that its very well stated and quite in depth.  While I tend to find myself still leaning toward the "wait and see" camp, its hard to argue with your clear knowledge of general game mechanics.  That said, we're not even in a true testing phase at this stage.  I'd like to think that if there is a glaring hole or weakness in one of the classes (and by that I mean one not intended in the original design) that the devs would be willing to tweak numbers and skills as drastically as necessary to fix and/or balance it, even if it means changing the original vision of a class to some degree.

    • 518 posts
    November 15, 2018 12:09 PM PST

    I agree Nikademis - I was just defending a previous statement.  I'm fine with the dev's decisions either way.

    • 1438 posts
    November 15, 2018 4:33 PM PST

    My reasoning is actually based on working side by side with SoE devs.  The DL could wear cloth for all I care... if this wasn't a game with core mechanics based off of EQ.  I've played Final Fantasy as a Paladin and Ninja as well, and I assure you, this is absolutely nothing like FF.  Many other games pull off avoidance tanks or self healing tanks all of the time, but not with these mechanics.  Even one of the dev's said during the Dire Lord reveal stream that they were having issues healing the DL due to the significant incoming spike damage being received and that was just in the mid 30s.  People aren't considering that there are numerous factors to consider with EQ's combat mechanics - not just ATK versus AC (which is what people "seem" to think those of us concerned about the DL's low mitigation are solely concerned with).  Character level vs NPC level, level of weapon skill, level of defense skill, rate of riposte/parry/dodge/block of NPC vs character, and then there are the additional misc. things like damage shields, damage immunities, having to tank multiple NPCs until they can be CC'd...  The DL's survivability (aside from needing a healer) has too much of a reliability on consistantly landing attacks on their target in order to compensate their inability to BLOCK, and considerably lower AC from a armor that Shaman wear and the typically high AC provided by shields.  (A ranger or shaman in EQ could "tank" too... for quite a few levels especially if higher level than the NPCs or overgeared for their level (twinked).)  Things that absolutely hard counter the DL mechanic include but are not limited to - block, dodge, parry, immunity; Things that not only hard counter, but are incredibly detrimental include but are not limited to RIPOSTES (dual wielding = death), DAMAGE SHIELDS (dual wielding = death); and lastly but VERY significant are the soft counters to the DL's self heal (with the exception of abysal strike) - they heal for a % of their damage done which means if the NPC is higher level than they are (which will most likely be the case) then their damage (if they even hit without getting hit back) is greatly mitigated if using an RNG equation even remotely similar to EQ which was something like:

    0. check to see if Block skill fired (like monks). if not,
    1. check to see if Riposte fired. if not,
    2. check to see if Parry fired. if not,
    3. check to see if Dodge fired. if not,
    4. check to see if Shield Block fired. if not,
    5. Check to see if the hit lands, or is a 'miss 
    6. Calculate damage versus mitigation

    This was for EVERY swing.  So every swing had a high probability of NOT hitting and then there was a ratio of weapon skill, class level, atk rating and a damage bonus that differed depending on 1h or 2h versus the NPCs AC, Class, and level to determine how much your damage is reduced by (if you even hit).  Mean time you're also getting punched in the face really hard and fast because NPC atk ratio > character atk ratio because they are designed to fight entire parties and offer a challenge (this is also why enchanter charmed pets in EQ were godmode when buffed and why they are nurfing it a bit in PRotF).

    I know people are swearing that "this isn't EQ" but its certainly using VERY similar mechanics and classes... and devs.  So far the only significant difference I see from EQ classes are the DL and RGR, all of the others just have very cool new abilities but ultimately the same classes.  I love the classes, but lets not kid ourselves.

    Trusting the Devs is great and like you said, it is what we are all doing (especially since we have no other choice really), and I trust that they will stick to their word as best they can - but the devs have emphasized many many times that the classes (including tanks) WILL NOT be equal.  I too agree that the Druid will likely be the best healer paired with the DL's self heals (as well as the Paladin's self heals, group heals, higher mitigation, and resurrection).  I'm debating on playing Druid or Enchanter for my first character as well depending on if the Bard is available at release.

     

    A few comment, because despite beeing quite nicely written, there are a few errors that really cut an edge in your argumentation :

     

    First, block was as you mentionned, a monk ability for unarmed parry. Because in a true rpg, you don't parry with hands, well you block it. Only a typo difference in the end. Not changing much for direlord here.

     

    You also mensionned Shield block. But shield block DID NOT exist in EQ. Shield were solely stat slots with an improved AC, and later an improved threat on bash. That's why they weren't popular with warriors untill they were given enough threat abilities to rely on more than procs and raw damage for threat. That means, a shield, wasn't much of an advantage for a tank, except thoses who could drop damage for a bit of defense : knights.

     

    You also mension mail as a shaman/ranger armor, but we explicitely know that Direlords will wear Heavy mail which will at least be tank restricted. The idea behind this is that the Direlord will be at least between a mail user and a plate user in raw AC, and not at ranger-shaman levels that could tank in lower content / overgeared.

     

     

    Now, I will agree that if riposte exists, dual wield will be dangerous. But Direlord can use Two hander as well (and we have only seen them wielding two handers for now...). I also agree that if they lack a proper Health pool and enough defense they won't much be tanks, but I don't think that's VR's stance overall.

     

    All we can do, is speculate, but obfuscating benefits or advantage to rely on the sole ole' "Tanks are mitigation + HP and nothing else has importance" is reducing MMO's design to the very same errors that crippled the market for more than 15 years. Games can be designed somehow else, and as long as you have a window to use Abyssal Strike after beeing struck by a big hit, that makes you as much resilient as any other tank. The fear of "One shotting bosses requiring only EHPS" is ancred in memories because it was the only way to make hard bosses you can't zerk or engage undergeared by making a tank stacking EHPS items, now from 5 to 10 years, most raid encounter are capped by "Enrage timers" forcing everyone to deal as much damage as possible, turning optimization to it's edge and forcing tanks and healers to play agressively for content clear.

     

    Now what, are thoses the only two options existing ? One shotting bosses, Enrage timers, and both at the same time when developpers get lost with the powercreep of itemization ?

    • 4 posts
    November 15, 2018 5:58 PM PST
    After watching the Direlord video I hope we can sword and board eventually.
    • 470 posts
    November 15, 2018 7:11 PM PST

    Darch said: Even one of the dev's said during the Dire Lord reveal stream that they were having issues healing the DL due to the significant incoming spike damage being received and that was just in the mid 30s

    I think maybe we are miss-remembering what was said in the stream.

    What Joppa actually said was: "Dire Lords are Fun to Heal, they are stressful to heal sometimes, but their life is really spikey. They don't have the molasses lifebar like a warrior would have. But it's just fun to see that kind of spike damage and then spike healing. I think they have ended up in a really good spot."

    There was no mention of 'having issues healing'.

    • 47 posts
    November 16, 2018 9:51 AM PST

    While we haven't seen anything outside of group play, the spikiness of the DL in the streams didn't seem too far past that of the warrior, but yes in any game really spikiness is undesirable - this is the entire premise behind WoW monk tanking - trading mitigation for a smooth, if higher damage intake.  What remains to be seen is how spikey that gets on multi-group content and if it is within the bounds that healers can manage.  When it comes down to it the only three factors are effective health (health, mitigation, some block implementations), damage spikiness (incoming damage, mitigation, and avoidance), and threat generation.

    That said, I'm hopeful if not confident this will not be a tangible issue on almost all single group content and mostly apply to raid scenarios.  For those, I expect a Warrior to tank the hardest hitting melee focused encounters and a DL to supplement with their damage sharing buff.  If the warrior is still preferable against an encounter like an EQ dragon, which relies on magical AE damage and fear mechanics, then I think tuning is in order.  These encounters should be the domain of a DL where their reduced magic damage and fear duration are preferable to pure mitigation.  Similar would be encounters with threat mechanics that allow the DLs superior and non-melee based threat generation to shine.  

    Additionally, I hope that these biases are just a preference, but that in a pinch at reasonable relative gear levels all tanks *could* MT any given raid, just that it will be easier or less risky when choosing the best-fit tank for the given encounter.  I also expect tank swaps to be necessary in many of the encounters as has been stated above.

     

    • 2290 posts
    November 16, 2018 10:50 AM PST

    Also, just because DL don't have shields doesn't mean they won't have any kind of blocking skill. They could end up having weapon block when using 2-handed weapons. 

    • 32 posts
    November 16, 2018 11:10 AM PST

    My reasoning is actually based on working side by side with SoE devs.  The DL could wear cloth for all I care... if this wasn't a game with core mechanics based off of EQ.  I've played Final Fantasy as a Paladin and Ninja as well, and I assure you, this is absolutely nothing like FF.  Many other games pull off avoidance tanks or self healing tanks all of the time, but not with these mechanics.  Even one of the dev's said during the Dire Lord reveal stream that they were having issues healing the DL due to the significant incoming spike damage being received and that was just in the mid 30s.  People aren't considering that there are numerous factors to consider with EQ's combat mechanics - not just ATK versus AC (which is what people "seem" to think those of us concerned about the DL's low mitigation are solely concerned with).  Character level vs NPC level, level of weapon skill, level of defense skill, rate of riposte/parry/dodge/block of NPC vs character, and then there are the additional misc. things like damage shields, damage immunities, having to tank multiple NPCs until they can be CC'd...  The DL's survivability (aside from needing a healer) has too much of a reliability on consistantly landing attacks on their target in order to compensate their inability to BLOCK, and considerably lower AC from a armor that Shaman wear and the typically high AC provided by shields.  (A ranger or shaman in EQ could "tank" too... for quite a few levels especially if higher level than the NPCs or overgeared for their level (twinked).)  Things that absolutely hard counter the DL mechanic include but are not limited to - block, dodge, parry, immunity; Things that not only hard counter, but are incredibly detrimental include but are not limited to RIPOSTES (dual wielding = death), DAMAGE SHIELDS (dual wielding = death); and lastly but VERY significant are the soft counters to the DL's self heal (with the exception of abysal strike) - they heal for a % of their damage done which means if the NPC is higher level than they are (which will most likely be the case) then their damage (if they even hit without getting hit back) is greatly mitigated if using an RNG equation even remotely similar to EQ which was something like:

    0. check to see if Block skill fired (like monks). if not,
    1. check to see if Riposte fired. if not,
    2. check to see if Parry fired. if not,
    3. check to see if Dodge fired. if not,
    4. check to see if Shield Block fired. if not,
    5. Check to see if the hit lands, or is a 'miss 
    6. Calculate damage versus mitigation

    This was for EVERY swing.  So every swing had a high probability of NOT hitting and then there was a ratio of weapon skill, class level, atk rating and a damage bonus that differed depending on 1h or 2h versus the NPCs AC, Class, and level to determine how much your damage is reduced by (if you even hit).  Mean time you're also getting punched in the face really hard and fast because NPC atk ratio > character atk ratio because they are designed to fight entire parties and offer a challenge (this is also why enchanter charmed pets in EQ were godmode when buffed and why they are nurfing it a bit in PRotF).

    I know people are swearing that "this isn't EQ" but its certainly using VERY similar mechanics and classes... and devs.  So far the only significant difference I see from EQ classes are the DL and RGR, all of the others just have very cool new abilities but ultimately the same classes.  I love the classes, but lets not kid ourselves.

    Trusting the Devs is great and like you said, it is what we are all doing (especially since we have no other choice really), and I trust that they will stick to their word as best they can - but the devs have emphasized many many times that the classes (including tanks) WILL NOT be equal.  I too agree that the Druid will likely be the best healer paired with the DL's self heals (as well as the Paladin's self heals, group heals, higher mitigation, and resurrection).  I'm debating on playing Druid or Enchanter for my first character as well depending on if the Bard is available at release.

     

    There is a lot wrong about what you just wrote here but I'll just concentrate on the devs "quote" about "having issues healing the DL".

     

    That is NOT what was said at all, literally said they were fun to heal, if a little stressful.  which from what I watched and what he said it was EXACTLY like healing a Ninja in FF11 to me, spikey damage at times but able to tank all content. 

     

    Here is a very good quote about equality:

     

    "I don't believe they should be completely equal either but they should be able to do their jobs without too much variance, for example, if a Warrior can tank a certain type of mob but a Dread Lord can;t, we start to cause unbalancing issues between class interdependence and that is bad for the game overall, but I do agree with you and think while both tanks should be able to do their jobs and tank most mobs, they should have pros and cons to each class to make them both interesting and better suited to different situations, so the tank/off-tank/multi-tank continually changes without one true top dog tank but that balance is difficult to achieve, so we will have to be careful ;) "

     

    Nobody will ever say any class will be truely COMPLETELY EQUAL, that is an imposibility with parsers and stuff now anyway.  What they have said repeatedly OVER and OVER is that all tanks will be able to tank.  It is going to be similar to SWTOR as well, which had three tank classes, all of which could tank just about anything but one of which required more player skill to pull off.  I played a healer in that and again it was never about the class but always about the player skill and gear.

     

    That is what it will be for this game too, guarantee it.  War, Pal and DL will all be able to tank just fine, War may very well be more of an "easy mode" tank where not much player skill is involved and Pal and DL may need a bit more player interaction to tank but they will all be able to tank, period.  An undergeared tank war with a bad player will not perform nearly as well as a decently geared DL or Pal with decent player skill.

     

    Anything else is a failure.

    • 518 posts
    November 19, 2018 1:55 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

     

    First, block was as you mentionned, a monk ability for unarmed parry. Because in a true rpg, you don't parry with hands, well you block it. Only a typo difference in the end. Not changing much for direlord here.

     You also mensionned Shield block. But shield block DID NOT exist in EQ. Shield were solely stat slots with an improved AC, and later an improved threat on bash. That's why they weren't popular with warriors untill they were given enough threat abilities to rely on more than procs and raw damage for threat. That means, a shield, wasn't much of an advantage for a tank, except thoses who could drop damage for a bit of defense : knights.

     You also mension mail as a shaman/ranger armor, but we explicitely know that Direlords will wear Heavy mail which will at least be tank restricted. The idea behind this is that the Direlord will be at least between a mail user and a plate user in raw AC, and not at ranger-shaman levels that could tank in lower content / overgeared.

     

    I said that the mechanic worked "something like:" meaning that I wasn't quoting the actual mechanic, but just that before the hit is calculated, there are several other mechanics that are parsed before the hit/miss.  With that said, I was talking about the NPC's defenses, and NPCs did block or parry depending on their class.  And they changed the Dire Lord from "Heavy Mail" to "Mail" (Like the shaman) months ago.


    This post was edited by Darch at November 19, 2018 2:11 PM PST
    • 518 posts
    November 19, 2018 2:09 PM PST

    TheBus88 said:

     

    That is NOT what was said at all, literally said they were fun to heal, if a little stressful.  which from what I watched and what he said it was EXACTLY like healing a Ninja in FF11 to me, spikey damage at times but able to tank all content. 

    You left out the part at 32:20 in the video when he also said it was spikey and needed spike healing because their health doesn't slowly go down like the other tanks.  They need spike healing, which if you ask experienced healers is very concerning (especially when two of the three healers sound like they rely on HoT).  Some people (like yourself and the dev apparently) think that is "fun".   I suppose it would be fun when you can type a command and complete your corpse run... but still "stressful" even though you have no real risk of loss... think about that for a bit.


    This post was edited by Darch at November 19, 2018 2:12 PM PST
    • 1438 posts
    November 19, 2018 3:52 PM PST

    Darch said : I said that the mechanic worked "something like:" meaning that I wasn't quoting the actual mechanic, but just that before the hit is calculated, there are several other mechanics that are parsed before the hit/miss.  With that said, I was talking about the NPC's defenses, and NPCs did block or parry depending on their class.  And they changed the Dire Lord from "Heavy Mail" to "Mail" (Like the shaman) months ago.

     

    I never said they didn't. Every mob blocked instead of parrying when unarmed. But there was no shield block : Shields weren't offering a new layer of avoidance in calculations, and thus, not making a notable enough difference in EQ for any tank to drop their two hander for a sword and board. Which MIGHT also be the case in pantheon, but no more info here.

     

    Quoting bazgrim here in a multiple quote :

     

    Bazgrim said : Just wanted to quote something Joppa said on Twitter in regards to this the other day:

    "The class-related chatter is good for the community overall... even the concerns. With the DL, heavy mail will be quite formidable. Also, these class reveals are not exhaustive - DL's have some mitigation abilities up their sleeves yet to be revealed."

     

    It's dated from June the 21th 2018, the reasoning behind changing the exact words on the website can range from undocumented changes to innate AC bonus to match Heavy-mail old stats with less itemization required passing by simplification of the website for a general cosmetic reason.

     

    We don't even know anything, but I'm not surprised you're making conclusions on cloudy areas.

    • 470 posts
    November 19, 2018 9:12 PM PST

    Darch said: You left out the part at 32:20 in the video when he also said it was spikey and needed spike healing because their health doesn't slowly go down like the other tanks.  They need spike healing, which if you ask experienced healers is very concerning (especially when two of the three healers sound like they rely on HoT).

    Joppa was referring to the Dire Lord's own spike healing. He said "But it's just fun to see that kind of spike damage and then spike healing." He is saying that the Dire Lords health bar goes down and then back up again without him needing to do anything.

    The stressful part would be making the judgement of how much healing the Dire Lord actually needs from the healer, since he will still need some. With a Warrior Tank the healer knows that all of the healing will need to come from him. But with a Dire Lord Tank the healer will only need to compliment the Dire Lords self healing. It's kinda like when there is multiple healers in a group. You need to pay attention to the other heals on the Tank and make a choice on when you need to add some healing too. Once you get some practice, healers will start to know how much healing the Dire Lord does himself and the timing on those heals and how much and how often they need to cast their own heals.

    • 518 posts
    November 20, 2018 6:33 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Darch said : I said that the mechanic worked "something like:" meaning that I wasn't quoting the actual mechanic, but just that before the hit is calculated, there are several other mechanics that are parsed before the hit/miss.  With that said, I was talking about the NPC's defenses, and NPCs did block or parry depending on their class.  And they changed the Dire Lord from "Heavy Mail" to "Mail" (Like the shaman) months ago.

     

    I never said they didn't. Every mob blocked instead of parrying when unarmed. But there was no shield block : Shields weren't offering a new layer of avoidance in calculations, and thus, not making a notable enough difference in EQ for any tank to drop their two hander for a sword and board. Which MIGHT also be the case in pantheon, but no more info here.

     

    Quoting bazgrim here in a multiple quote :

     

    Bazgrim said : Just wanted to quote something Joppa said on Twitter in regards to this the other day:

    "The class-related chatter is good for the community overall... even the concerns. With the DL, heavy mail will be quite formidable. Also, these class reveals are not exhaustive - DL's have some mitigation abilities up their sleeves yet to be revealed."

     

    It's dated from June the 21th 2018, the reasoning behind changing the exact words on the website can range from undocumented changes to innate AC bonus to match Heavy-mail old stats with less itemization required passing by simplification of the website for a general cosmetic reason.

     

    We don't even know anything, but I'm not surprised you're making conclusions on cloudy areas.

    You said that players didn't block, and I clarified that my post wasn't about players blocking, but it was about the NPC's blocking (in referrence to the subject of my post of mechanics negating the DL's self healing).  And not "every mob blocked" it depended on their archetype, just like every mob didn't quad attack or cast spells.  And lastly, equiping a shield DID make a difference and if a tank could still hold threat with a shield (and wasn't overgeared) then the wise tanks did.  

    They changed a lot of other things on the websites to include the Heavy mail, and I seriously doubt that it was for "cosmetic reasons".  Another HUGE change they made to the skills on the websites was to the warrior's 20% higher armor rating changing to 20% higher armor proficiency skill... that's not cosmetic.  

    I am not making "conclusions" but I am making assumptions and suggestions based off of math from another game with incredibly similar combat mechanics.  Please don't think that I am making any "conclusions" (or accuse me of doing so) because a conclusion can't be found when the devs haven't even come to a resolution yet (and nobody has properly tested).  Feedback (suggestions based on assumptions) from their testers is what programmers/devs should be using to make changes.  These forums are our way to give suggestions/feedback until we get into testing.  As I've said before, we will have to wait and see, but I'm fairly confident that my "assumptions" will likely prove to be a challenge for the devs which typically overflows to the frustration of players if not dealt with delicately.  


    This post was edited by Darch at November 20, 2018 8:27 AM PST
    • 1438 posts
    November 20, 2018 2:52 PM PST

    Darch said : You said that players didn't block, and I clarified that my post wasn't about players blocking, but it was about the NPC's blocking (in referrence to the subject of my post of mechanics negating the DL's self healing).  And not "every mob blocked" it depended on their archetype, just like every mob didn't quad attack or cast spells.  And lastly, equiping a shield DID make a difference and if a tank could still hold threat with a shield (and wasn't overgeared) then the wise tanks did. 

    I absolutely never said players didn't block. I will re quote myself for the clarification :

    I said : First, block was as you mentionned, a monk ability for unarmed parry. Because in a true rpg, you don't parry with hands, well you block it. Only a typo difference in the end. Not changing much for direlord here.

     

    Darch said : They changed a lot of other things on the websites to include the Heavy mail, and I seriously doubt that it was for "cosmetic reasons".  Another HUGE change they made to the skills on the websites was to the warrior's 20% higher armor rating changing to 20% higher armor proficiency skill... that's not cosmetic.  

    I said, again : It's dated from June the 21th 2018, the reasoning behind changing the exact words on the website can range from undocumented changes to innate AC bonus to match Heavy-mail old stats with less itemization required passing by simplification of the website for a general cosmetic reason.

    It can, or it can't. There are multiple reasons for this change, undocumented by the way and I gave three of them. I don't know why they changed and I don't care, because I'm not designing the game and they know what they have to do. One sure thing is that this change is not meant to make the Direlord a sub-par tank because it's explicitely stated as : Every tank can tank anything but some are better in specific areas. I'll simply stay to the roots here, and prophetizing the direlord will be no better as a ranger or shaman tanking is just... spreading false ideas. Taking a comparison from an other class page will bring absolutely nothing into balance except "We don't know either". Any of thoses changes can be as major as the others, and that's not because they concern tanks that they are more important. They are changes, we don't know about it, nothing more to say.

    Darch said : I am not making "conclusions" but I am making assumptions and suggestions based off of math from another game with incredibly similar combat mechanics.  Please don't think that I am making any "conclusions" (or accuse me of doing so) because a conclusion can't be found when the devs haven't even come to a resolution yet (and nobody has properly tested).  Feedback (suggestions based on assumptions) from their testers is what programmers/devs should be using to make changes.  These forums are our way to give suggestions/feedback until we get into testing.  As I've said before, we will have to wait and see, but I'm fairly confident that my "assumptions" will likely prove to be a challenge for the devs which typically overflows to the frustration of players if not dealt with delicately. 

    You're spreading wildfire, and false ideas, more than assumptions or suggestions. Probably, Pantheon will be close to EQ for the way armor and avoidance works, but probably not. Many points are still really dark here, especially regarding special attacks, their interactions (or lack of) with weapon damage, the way they will be mitigated by armor. Eq had little "special attacks", in fact it only had Bash, kick and Backstab (edit : forgot about the monk kick  and more line). The former beeing the closer to a "nowadays special attack calc" including weapon skill, weapon damage, strength and special attack skill level.

    I don't think waving you arms saying "Warrior will be the only big tank and direlord will be a ranger tank" will be a feedback of any sort, honesly. It's just raising false ideas, and a non legitimate feeling of injustice over a class that is not even released yet.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at November 20, 2018 2:58 PM PST
    • 32 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:15 PM PST

    Darch said:

    TheBus88 said:

     

    That is NOT what was said at all, literally said they were fun to heal, if a little stressful.  which from what I watched and what he said it was EXACTLY like healing a Ninja in FF11 to me, spikey damage at times but able to tank all content. 

    You left out the part at 32:20 in the video when he also said it was spikey and needed spike healing because their health doesn't slowly go down like the other tanks.  They need spike healing, which if you ask experienced healers is very concerning (especially when two of the three healers sound like they rely on HoT).  Some people (like yourself and the dev apparently) think that is "fun".   I suppose it would be fun when you can type a command and complete your corpse run... but still "stressful" even though you have no real risk of loss... think about that for a bit.

     

    I have thought about it plenty, may want to think about what you're doing here if this is what you think of the devs because according to your "logic" they're lying to us and DLs will be a third rate tank........that or you just have a hard time admitting you're wrong.....

     

    I see it as someting like this:

     

    War-10,000 HPs, loses 3,000 in a fight, I need to heal 3,000 to have them at 100%

    Pal-9,000 HPs, loses 4,000 in a fight and self heals for 1,000, I need to heal them for 3,000 to have them at 100%

    DL-8,000 HPs, loses 5,000 in a fight and self heals for 2,000, I need to heal them for 3,000 to have them at 100%

     

    AGAIN, I trust the devs to build these classes as evenly as they can and I trust that all tanks will be able to tank just fine, if you don't I'm not sure what you're even here for?

    • 32 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:24 PM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Darch said: You left out the part at 32:20 in the video when he also said it was spikey and needed spike healing because their health doesn't slowly go down like the other tanks.  They need spike healing, which if you ask experienced healers is very concerning (especially when two of the three healers sound like they rely on HoT).

    Joppa was referring to the Dire Lord's own spike healing. He said "But it's just fun to see that kind of spike damage and then spike healing." He is saying that the Dire Lords health bar goes down and then back up again without him needing to do anything.

    The stressful part would be making the judgement of how much healing the Dire Lord actually needs from the healer, since he will still need some. With a Warrior Tank the healer knows that all of the healing will need to come from him. But with a Dire Lord Tank the healer will only need to compliment the Dire Lords self healing. It's kinda like when there is multiple healers in a group. You need to pay attention to the other heals on the Tank and make a choice on when you need to add some healing too. Once you get some practice, healers will start to know how much healing the Dire Lord does himself and the timing on those heals and how much and how often they need to cast their own heals.

     

    EXACTLY

     

    Was the same way for me healing assassins in SWTOR, at first I was liek O CRAP YOUR HEALTH, then after I played with them I realized how the class worked and when they really need heals (mostly when CDs were not up).


    And guess what, they tanked everythign just fine up and to end game.

    • 518 posts
    November 21, 2018 11:24 AM PST

    TheBus88 said:

    EXACTLY

     

    Was the same way for me healing assassins in SWTOR, at first I was liek O CRAP YOUR HEALTH, then after I played with them I realized how the class worked and when they really need heals (mostly when CDs were not up).


    And guess what, they tanked everythign just fine up and to end game.

    Stop comparing this to Final Fantasy and The Old Republic kid.  I can assure you this will be absolutely nothing like those.

    edit:  In fact, I was a tester for ToR and the devs absolutely did not listen to many of the testers' concerns, and the game flopped in a few months and eventually had to go free to play.  Their tanking classes were TERRIBLY unbalanced and not all tanks could tank the content like they originally announced.


    This post was edited by Darch at November 21, 2018 11:38 AM PST