Forums » News and Announcements

Pantheon MMO All-Star Stream August 2018 Wizard Perspective

    • 9115 posts
    August 7, 2018 3:26 PM PDT

    What a Night! TheHiveLeader, Force Gaming, Vress, Fevir and Docgotgame all in one stream.

    Joined by Chris "Joppa" Perkins, the team cuts its teeth on the cooperative gameplay of Pantheon. Kills are not awarded gratuitously. The team has to earn every one.

    https://youtu.be/eq6ftMk21FA

    And earn they do. A full two hours of gameplay with much hilarity shows the marked learning curve and improvement that can be done in just one session.

    Watch from different perspectives! In this video we see the night through the eyes of the group wizard, Joppa. The other VODs are available below:

    Cleric - TheHiveLeader - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5MU4bh2P_k
    Warrior
    - ForceGaming - https://www.facebook.com/forcegaming/videos/1904285539637670/
    Enchanter
    - Docgotgame - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/293991365?t=01h58m59s
    Rogue
    - Fevir - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I61t7N2jq0
    Ranger
    Vress - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZy0KwqMODc

     


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at August 7, 2018 10:47 PM PDT
    • 595 posts
    August 7, 2018 3:52 PM PDT

    Thanks mate \m/

    • 12 posts
    August 7, 2018 5:31 PM PDT
    • 1019 posts
    August 7, 2018 6:57 PM PDT

    It's great hearing the closing remarks from all the streams.  They all say the loved it.

    • 9115 posts
    August 7, 2018 10:48 PM PDT

    Korashi said:

    Ranger - Vress - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZy0KwqMODc

    Thank you! I am not sure how Vress got left off that, I must have messed up my copy/paste from the list but he is added now :)

    • 3 posts
    August 7, 2018 11:52 PM PDT

    Thanks guys for this amazing work :)

    • 2886 posts
    August 8, 2018 3:51 AM PDT

    Was really fun to watch. FYI, my summary of it is available here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9071/bazgrim-s-06-aug-18-mmo-all-star-stream-recap


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at August 8, 2018 3:51 AM PDT
    • 20 posts
    August 8, 2018 6:46 AM PDT

    I love wizards, and I loved this stream...but I think wizards need some serious work before they're ready.

     

    Seemed like pretty ho-hum gameplay, with lackluster DPS (and extra aggro? - anyone else notice this?)

     

    I really really want to wizard to be awesome, but after yesterday, I'm aiming more towards enchanter. Mana regen was also really strange! 

    • 287 posts
    August 19, 2018 4:22 PM PDT
    ^ I believe I saw the damage leaders per mob (after ever kill the group was ranked). Rogue was usually number 1 but the wizard topped the list as well.
    • 128 posts
    September 3, 2018 1:32 PM PDT

    Wizard looks amazing well designed great job Vr.

    Looks like its launch ready quality. 

    • 3016 posts
    September 3, 2018 1:49 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    What a Night! TheHiveLeader, Force Gaming, Vress, Fevir and Docgotgame all in one stream.

    Joined by Chris "Joppa" Perkins, the team cuts its teeth on the cooperative gameplay of Pantheon. Kills are not awarded gratuitously. The team has to earn every one.

    https://youtu.be/eq6ftMk21FA

    And earn they do. A full two hours of gameplay with much hilarity shows the marked learning curve and improvement that can be done in just one session.

    Watch from different perspectives! In this video we see the night through the eyes of the group wizard, Joppa. The other VODs are available below:

    Cleric - TheHiveLeader - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5MU4bh2P_k
    Warrior
    - ForceGaming - https://www.facebook.com/forcegaming/videos/1904285539637670/
    Enchanter
    - Docgotgame - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/293991365?t=01h58m59s
    Rogue
    - Fevir - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I61t7N2jq0
    Ranger
    Vress - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZy0KwqMODc

     

     

    Never mind..found what I was looking for.

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at September 3, 2018 1:50 PM PDT
    • 217 posts
    September 27, 2018 6:58 PM PDT

    Im really disheartened ALOT by the Wizard thus far.

    I want to play one as I love them BUT, you NEED to make them as their description is stating.  I love rogues but their DPS should be never first over a Wizard.  Now, I think aggro management nees to be an issue with this gr8 power they wield, but not to be unplayable.  Wizards are squishee and wear cloth, whereas a rogue can stand toe to toe at least for a short while with tough mobs. Wizards go down fast. Glass cannons theyre called and for a reason.  When they hit a mob it should be a NICE chunk. That damage should also be strategically used. Another thing is, ALL the AE spells are absolutely the worste idea ever. Why would you do THAT? Wizards DONT wanna create hate, especially amongst MANY a mob.  I struggle to fathom the thinking behind this route taken in their developement. Sorry if this annoys anyone but I passionate about things being done right and making sense.

    • 1479 posts
    September 27, 2018 10:19 PM PDT

    vigilantee13 said:

    Im really disheartened ALOT by the Wizard thus far.

    I want to play one as I love them BUT, you NEED to make them as their description is stating.  I love rogues but their DPS should be never first over a Wizard.  Now, I think aggro management nees to be an issue with this gr8 power they wield, but not to be unplayable.  Wizards are squishee and wear cloth, whereas a rogue can stand toe to toe at least for a short while with tough mobs. Wizards go down fast. Glass cannons theyre called and for a reason.  When they hit a mob it should be a NICE chunk. That damage should also be strategically used. Another thing is, ALL the AE spells are absolutely the worste idea ever. Why would you do THAT? Wizards DONT wanna create hate, especially amongst MANY a mob.  I struggle to fathom the thinking behind this route taken in their developement. Sorry if this annoys anyone but I passionate about things being done right and making sense.

     

    -Pre alpha footage, no definitive numbers

    -DPS classes efficiency isn't based on personal "tankyness", as beeing ranged and far from the fight is already an advantage by itself and the toolkit of the class is here to balance thoses differences.


    This post was edited by Mauvais_Oeil at September 27, 2018 10:20 PM PDT
    • 48 posts
    September 27, 2018 10:32 PM PDT

    vigilantee13 said:

    Im really disheartened ALOT by the Wizard thus far.

    I want to play one as I love them BUT, you NEED to make them as their description is stating.  I love rogues but their DPS should be never first over a Wizard.  Now, I think aggro management nees to be an issue with this gr8 power they wield, but not to be unplayable.  Wizards are squishee and wear cloth, whereas a rogue can stand toe to toe at least for a short while with tough mobs. Wizards go down fast. Glass cannons theyre called and for a reason.  When they hit a mob it should be a NICE chunk. That damage should also be strategically used. Another thing is, ALL the AE spells are absolutely the worste idea ever. Why would you do THAT? Wizards DONT wanna create hate, especially amongst MANY a mob.  I struggle to fathom the thinking behind this route taken in their developement. Sorry if this annoys anyone but I passionate about things being done right and making sense.

     

    It is nice to see there there are occasionally people who aren't all "best ever" all the time. I personally seriously dislike the Ranger class, so much so that I would grade it a 3/10 (with 5 being average, because I am not a game reviewer who thinks 7 is). I honestly hope it gets completely overhauled. Enough so, that I literally just paid $250 to post this. Obviously, there are still things I like about the game (and I have been dawdling on the pledge), but not the Ranger class, which I have mained for ~ decade primarily in EQ and EQ2.

     

    edit - Oh yeah, this makes my second ever backing, with the first being Divinity Original Sin II. Don't let me down now VR. Make a good/great game.


    This post was edited by Merkades at September 27, 2018 10:46 PM PDT
    • 612 posts
    September 28, 2018 5:30 AM PDT

    Merkades said: I personally seriously dislike the Ranger class ... I honestly hope it gets completely overhauled.

    I have noticed that the Ranger class is much different in Pantheon than other similar classes in other MMO's.

    It reminds me of what I think WoW was going for with the Hunter class in vanilla. They seemed to want a class that you could choose to play either as a close ranged Melee fighter, or a long ranged archer. As things went, the ranged abilities tended to be more balanced than the Melee ones and so players would never bother to close in and use any close range abilities. So eventually they ended up just removing the Melee attacks and stuck with Hunters being 'long range archer' as the playstyle.

    In Pantheon I think it's not about choosing Melee or Ranged, but rather a merging of the two styles into an 'Engage then Disengage' class. So instead of you choosing to be in Melee or choosing to be Ranged. You actually end up switching it up as you fight. Leaping in to use your Melee cooldowns, and then Leaping away to use your Ranged cooldowns, then leaping back in to use your Melee cooldowns again, then leaping away once again to use those Ranged cooldowns. This means that the Ranger in Pantheon is actually Both a Melee and a Ranged class at the same time.

    Since this is very rare in MMO's I can see how some players who prefer to be able to choose either a Melee class or a Ranged class would find the Pantheon Ranger quite an enigma and may be disappointed.

    We will need to wait and see if VR can pull off the balance and keep this class as a true hybrid Melee & Ranged class, as I think that some players may really thrive on the constant movement in combat.

    • 217 posts
    September 28, 2018 6:07 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    -Pre alpha footage, no definitive numbers

    -DPS classes efficiency isn't based on personal "tankyness", as beeing ranged and far from the fight is already an advantage by itself and the toolkit of the class is here to balance thoses differences.

    I understand this but you missed my point. Of course its pre-alpha, of course its not finished.  This is feedback from me on my opinion and how I feel the class should be handled and how it should feel to be a wizard. Last nights post was written as I lie down to sleep so it was a bit sloppy and I didnt even make all my points, but I felt compelled to write it nonetheless to get others thoughts and ideas churning to provide additional feedback.

    My biggest point is due to background of what a Wizard is and what it take in fantasy land to become one vs a Rogue. As stated I have a great appreciation for that class and all it takes for them to "become" through practice of the melee arts and study of anatomy where the most lethal blows can be struck etc. And though this does indeed take alot of training, years even, a Wizard spends DECADES researching the arcane and practicing it. Locked away often in their chambers pouring through volumes upon volumes of scrolls, books and incantations.  This is why so many depictions of the Wizard are of older, often grey or white haired, long bearded, scrawny and often feeble men.  

    As stated the Wizard class is made of those who, through this research were the ones NOT driven mad by the accumulation of such great power. Now to me that speaks volumes about HOW powerful they should feel and actually BE. Going back to the complaint about AE sells and the large quantity of them, with this life consuming amount of research and Intelligence being their key framework of the class that they would be smart enough to NOT want to use AE spells very often.  Not that they are totally useless and without merit, if implimented in a meaningful way and creatively without being an all out aggro magnet.  

    Now I have also read and heard that they are trying to shy away from the traditional take on a wizard as far as gameplay goes and not wanting them to be just sitting around most of the fight and waiting to do lethal damage. I have a few things to say about that as well. First, I think its kool but also a slippery slope in where the class could end up broken or unfun for die hard Wizards to play if the POWER isnt felt.  I for one love that feeling and seeing a nice chunk of life drop off a life bar when I cast a spell or combination of spells. If done with that in mind and give the Wizard some more utilitarian type spells to use during combat so their not just damage doers, for instance, stuns, silences, confusion, oil slick (which can be ignited for additional dmg). Theres also counterspells, so if I as a Wizard see we have an encounter with a mage type, I can see them casting a spell that say takes 2.4 seconds to cast. I can cast a counterspell thats an instant spell that can either reflect the damage back to the caster or even more fun, redirect the spells damage to one of his lackeys.

    Thats all I have for now as Im at work and breaktimes over. Please feel free to debate this outlook on the class or add your very own flavor. Im posting this in leau of giving DEVs ideas that maybe they havent thought of but also to show my personal opinions on the class Ive played so much over the years and truely love.

     

    -Vig

    • 1479 posts
    September 28, 2018 10:56 AM PDT

    I get your point from a Tabletop RPG perspective, but that's really only relative to Tabletop. In a MMORPG, wizards have no offset for their versatility and spell choices. There is no reason for them to be more powerfull than rogues if it takes them the same amount of time/exp to reach max, and their max is the same. Taking Ad&d as an example, a magician needed at firsttwice the amount of XP required than a rogue/bard, and it ended by making their total experience for level 20 85% higher than a rogue.

     

    In this design, at equal levels, a wizard should be more powerfull than a rogue especially because in a same party, the lvl 20 rogue would be accompanied by a lvl 15 wizard  for the same EXP pool.

     

    In MMO's, the final level is the level cap, and there is absolutely no reason to justify a more powerfull character because the journey is the same and the cap make it so everyone ends up at the very same level.

     

    I'm not "fully sold" on the current wizard concept, but not because it doesn't have flavour, but I would have prefered spell schools not tied to anything making one better than an other in 99% of the situations (IE : Fire will be stronger in damage than both others, except of fire immune/High RF mobs). I also claim for mana pauses and Joppa especially said than arcane school could even "give you back" mana. However all of this also depends of spell cooldowns. In wowish games you allways have a filler to press that will achieve chain casting and thus, 100% activity. In EQ I remember often the best mana to damage spells had cooldown so even if your wanted to DPS often, you just sat between short cooldowns to recover a tick or two of mana before going back into action.

    • 48 posts
    September 28, 2018 11:42 PM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Merkades said: I personally seriously dislike the Ranger class ... I honestly hope it gets completely overhauled.

    I have noticed that the Ranger class is much different in Pantheon than other similar classes in other MMO's.

    It reminds me of what I think WoW was going for with the Hunter class in vanilla. They seemed to want a class that you could choose to play either as a close ranged Melee fighter, or a long ranged archer. As things went, the ranged abilities tended to be more balanced than the Melee ones and so players would never bother to close in and use any close range abilities. So eventually they ended up just removing the Melee attacks and stuck with Hunters being 'long range archer' as the playstyle.

    In Pantheon I think it's not about choosing Melee or Ranged, but rather a merging of the two styles into an 'Engage then Disengage' class. So instead of you choosing to be in Melee or choosing to be Ranged. You actually end up switching it up as you fight. Leaping in to use your Melee cooldowns, and then Leaping away to use your Ranged cooldowns, then leaping back in to use your Melee cooldowns again, then leaping away once again to use those Ranged cooldowns. This means that the Ranger in Pantheon is actually Both a Melee and a Ranged class at the same time.

    Since this is very rare in MMO's I can see how some players who prefer to be able to choose either a Melee class or a Ranged class would find the Pantheon Ranger quite an enigma and may be disappointed.

    We will need to wait and see if VR can pull off the balance and keep this class as a true hybrid Melee & Ranged class, as I think that some players may really thrive on the constant movement in combat.

     

    I actually like this aspect of the Ranger. Imo, it is not really any different than EQ2, just slightly larger distance to cover when shifting from ranged to melee. That and skills to do so rather than manually crossing the invisible line to switch between the two types. Though after Kilsin was showing that War Archer video I am kinda disappointed that bow range is so far back. Anyways, if I was to sum up the things I don't like, then... (this is based on the class skills list and the streams, obviously subject to change yada yada)

      I simply do not believe "scouting" utility will ever match up to FD and mez/mem blur. Or really be useful beyond running a dungeon a time or three til it is mostly memorized, and yes I know about those dynamic spawn mobs. FD and Mez/stealth/hide/sneak can accomplish the same thing and even be used to deal with the upcoming encounters.

      The multitude of "pet" things is silly, even a pack just for SoW? Also just not a pet fan (even dumbfire, or vanity, or even mounts really), though that is more personal.

      Did you notice that Glass Arrow never got used without a "crap crap cancel" following shortly after. I kinda liked this skill until I remembered how heavily they want mez to factor in.

      Push and Pull arrows.. for what reason? to annoy rogues trying to backstab?

      Silent Arrow, if it stays as is, is supposed to be an opening attack, that is manually aimed. Probably great for /RPers but I view that as an efficiency decrease, others are firing and forgetting, but that is supposed to be manual. Additionally, attacks only used during the initial combat opening are just simply bad. Why would I want to open an encounter with my absolute strongest attack? This also means during a long encounter or multi encounter, you will only use the skill once. Also, let's not forget the extra damage outdoors which I read as nerfed when playing in the majority of worthwhile content

      Currently no snare (probably fear of soloing) and no deaggro skill. Also a root that breaks at the slightest damage, though I wonder about the recast and if it is targetable or placeable. I like both kinds. Roots and snares were great for ghetto CCing as a Ranger, and soloing to be sure

      Warning Shot... Flare to a lesser degree.. but really? Peeps need to pay attention.

      Not going to complain about the animal charm/pacify, but those aren't likely to help much sans specfic areas. Mostly abivalent. Better than nothing?

      That indoor/outdoor garbage. Nothing like having something awesome like Harmony, but not being able to use it in the majority of worthwhile content. I mentioned the Silent Arrow thing, and who knows what else could have it. I really hate how Devs always hamstring nature based classes. Kilsin once said Fun should take priority over realisim when someone complained about Rogues hiding in broad daylight, in open areas, in plain sight with non magical stealth. I agree. But does any Ranger or Druid actually like the weaker indoors than outside thing (especially non /RPers, I kinda expect you folks to)? Also why do Devs always start and stop at nature based classes with regards to this? Some things I get, no need for Wake of Karana indoors.

      Momentum. Currently, momentum is supposed to be 20% haste at 100%, watching the streams momemtum is never 100% and rarely high at all. The Rogues gets Blackjack Kick, which last I saw of the skill grants 50% haste for 6 seconds with 8 second recast. That is way, way better. Ridiculously so.

     

    That is all I can think of atm. Would be nice to have the passives and epic skills updated for the Monk, Rogue, and Ranger though, they have little to none of them while the rest of the classes have several.

     

    Lastly, I do still like the game overall, just not my preferred class. This is just in case anyone reads my two mostly negative posts. I would not have pledged otherwise... and if I look at the bright side, perhaps this will convince me to try a new class.

     

    Edit -  wow my bullet points turned into hot garbage, as welll as the formatting of my post. Guess I won't use that feature anymore. Tried to clean it up some and added momentum.

     


    This post was edited by Merkades at September 28, 2018 11:57 PM PDT
    • 217 posts
    September 29, 2018 5:37 AM PDT
    I really disagree Mauv. End level or equal level doesnt mean everyone should be equal. Only in level. And in overall necessity yes. Let me put it in another context. If you factor in all abilities and or spells, all capabilities and utilities, then yes. In the end it should balance out. For instance with comparing dps classes as we have thus far the rogue and wizard. This is going to be pretty general but you should get my jist. First rogue, does melee dmg and gets bonuses with backstab, gets poisons and traps as well to add to this, gets to wear leather (maybe even chain) armor to mitigate damage to themselves, as well as dodge and parry bonuses. Also ability to sneak and mezz for added flavor. If ya give points for all those features and then add them up, plus having equal dps to that of a wizard... dont seem right. Wizard, root and some magical shielding with cloth armor, spells that only do as much dps as a rogue oh and teleports. Doesnt add up to me as being a very powerful wizard.
    • 1479 posts
    September 29, 2018 7:16 AM PDT

    I see you've eluded everything about level and such into one single sentence, well let's see :

     

    -On what behalf would the wizard be more powerfull in Damage than any other dealer, except the fact you want to play it ?

    -For which reason should it bring a greater reward for the same investment in time and energy than an other class, or namely the rogue ?

    -Why, having access to a more wide toolkit implying control, displacement, and possibily invisibility for yourself and others, wards, see invisible, would make you a good candidate for beeing a best damage dealer ?

    -Why, since a wizard would not be mainly exposed to beeing hit in battle in solo as much as a rogue, and relying to absolutely no positionnal abilities, further enhancing the soli capability, would the wizard be stronger in damage ?

     

    If you played everquest you know back then (And I'm not saying it will be the case in pantheon), rogue were absolute **** in solo with their damage gimped by positionnal, and their defense not strong enough to survive while having no sustain/recovery. Wizards however were good, dancing on the edge of never beeing hit, but good enough to solo single mobs or even quad kite them. Having no reliance on melee IS by itself the reason to have a weaker defense or a more active one (spell shields and such).

    But there is no reason at all for a DPS to overwrite others just because there is fancy flavor, fantasy habits or just because it's the preferred class of someone. We play the same game, progress at the same speed in the same circumstances and play the same role : The DPS should be roughly the same with around 5% of variability at most.

    What I agree however, is that they shouldn't deal damage the same way. The rogue shouldn't be able to unload a front burst, and would focus on a sustained DPS with a short term ressource where the wizard would rely on a modulable burst with a long term ressource. That means the wizard could out DPS the rogue on a short frame but that would hinder his DPS over the long course, as everything has a cost.

     

    However, with your idea and claims, why playing anything but a wizard if for the same investment, since wizards "should" be stronger ?

     

    And no, mail and melee defense don't make a rogue a soloer at all, or a tanky character. It just guarantee they don't die if they draw aggro because they have absolutely no delay between aggro stealing and beeing pounded, while a wizard has enough room to react and root/shield/such.

    • 612 posts
    September 29, 2018 11:19 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said: We play the same game, progress at the same speed in the same circumstances and play the same role : The DPS should be roughly the same with around 5% of variability at most.

    I agree with MauvaisOeil on this. All the DPS classes regardless of their secondary utility should be balanced to have similar dps numbers on average. There will be cases though where some may excel above others, but then there will be cases where those will be lower than the others. For example, some fights might be more in favor of physical damage due to high magic resists or something like that. Other fights might favor magic damage due to rather high Armor. But over all, on the average all the DPS should still be able to compete with each other and there should never be a clear "Always wins on DPS" class. If that ever happens, you will likely see adjustments (fear the nerf bat) to let everyone compete.

    And just in case people don't see the comparison... All Tanks should have the same tank viability. And all the Healers should be able to heal at the same level.

    MauvaisOeil said: What I agree however, is that they shouldn't deal damage the same way.

    Right. And this applies to those Tanks and Healers. They may not tank in the same way, or Heal in the same way, but they should all be able to do the job to the same level of competency.

    • 217 posts
    September 30, 2018 2:01 PM PDT

    I see your point,

    And no my stance isnt because I want to play one. My point fails to reach you as maybe Ive explained it in a way thats not understood. Thats OK, Im not going to debate my opinion further. Its mine and I shall keep it. If the wizard doesnt end with a flavor I agree with I can play a class that I do enjoy the outcome of.  Theres still plenty of time and adjustments to be made.  Thnx for the input.

    • 30 posts
    October 6, 2018 8:01 AM PDT
    Awesome video Joppa. After the 3rd explanation of green cons and yet the group would still pull them I was lmao imagining you muting the mic and banging your head against the keyboard.

    Joppa was playing with a true pug folks and none of them knew their class. Never saw the assassin being slowed by the enchanter, any mobs in fact, nor any magic debuffs being dropped to help with resists. Whenever they came across the scouts with the large agro range no one bothered to cast an agro range reduction spell so they could get close enough to cc them. Should have just had the tank pull and have the mez ready for the add.Hell, there were times Joppa was just standing around twiddling his thumbs because of being afraid of sit agro. Which brings me to this, will wizards get their agro reduction spell in the late game like in eq1? Will it be a self only agro reduction or possiby a ward that's applied to the tank that transfers 20% of wizard's threat to the tank.