Forums » Pantheon Classes

race/class choices

    • 624 posts
    July 14, 2018 9:01 AM PDT

    I know it's probably buried somewhere in thousands of posts but I can't find the topic I want to reply to:

    I don't think the old model of selective class choices is the best idea - it's sort of just the "default" idea.

    I think Pantheon could be a little progressive by offering no limitations, except evil vs. good restrictions.

    I'm not understanding why humans can be everything but halflings or dwarves (or an other race) cannot.

    Except issues between evil races can't be an inherently good class (i.e. Paladin) and vice-versa.

    But how does a race like the gnomes even survive without any healers at all?  They can't.  Each society should be able to be anything - and maybe some are better at it (more powers, faster skillups) but all should be able to try.  And I think this would add a whole new dynamic to the game.  Imagine the fun challenge of trying to become an effective elf necro or something

    • 152 posts
    July 14, 2018 1:18 PM PDT

    yuck dude!

    • 10 posts
    July 14, 2018 3:42 PM PDT

    I think there setting it up from the storyline there using IE evil races/evil classes. Kinda like old D&D where only a few eaces can be a few classes but humans could be any class. Older races were stuck in there ways. I think it like that in away. I would be the world there creating around each race and what that race would do or not do

    • 495 posts
    July 15, 2018 2:09 AM PDT

    fazool said: Except issues between evil races can't be an inherently good class (i.e. Paladin) and vice-versa.

    You are invalidating your whole argument. You are suggesting that there shouldn't be limits on race/class combo's on the grounds that all races are equal despite physical differences, and there shouldn't be a reason that a class couldn't be found within any specific racial society.

    But then you are suggesting that races aren't equal because one might be inherently 'Evil' in some way. What makes a race inherently evil? Wouldn't all races have both good and evil individuals?

    Also, what would make any class inherently 'Good'? Paladins in Terminus are described as ones who "transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order" and "carries out their righteous judgment as they see fit." This suggests that they are not beholden to some higher law of goodness, but rather have decided that they are a Law unto Themselves (Judge Dredd "I am the Law!"). And as such could be both good or evil in their own personal definition of righteousness. This makes me think of the Wheel of Time books where the Children of the Light went around trying to stamp out wickedness, but often times were the most Evil characters in the story.

    fazool said: But how does a race like the gnomes even survive without any healers at all?  They can't.

    What would make you think that a race needs magical healers in some way to survive? We humans in the real world don't have supernatural magic healers and we have survived. Animals thrive in every RPG world without any mystical healing abilities. Just because something is very handy to have doesn't mean it's required.

    fazool said: I'm not understanding why humans can be everything but halflings or dwarves (or an other race) cannot.

    The common mistake many people might make here, is in assuming that the reason a race doesn't have access to a specific class is simply because of physical reasons. They may think "Gnomes are too small and weak, so they can't be warriors." But this would be a wrong assumption. These types of restrictions have more to do with culture and interest than any physical limitations.

    Perhaps for a Gnome the idea of toe to toe combat just isn't part of their culture and how they would do things. Their way of thinking would lean towards less equal footing forms of engagement, like the sneaky Rogue or by fighting from afar with arcane arts. The idea of standing face to face with your opponent as a warrior, paladin, monk, or dire lord would seem foolish to the gnomish mind and in fact would be ridiculed by other gnomes for that kind of barbaric fighting style. Fight in a way the enemy can hit you back? Ludicris... much safer to stab him in the back when he isn't looking, or throw poison in his face and run away.

    On the other hand... Ogres "value the brutal skills of battle above refinements or leisure". Thus they fight as warriors and dire lords but not Monks or Rangers. Ogre's can be druids and shaman's maybe because they have a more spiritual and naturalistic culture. Perhaps it's not a lack of intelligence that makes them not have wizards and enchanters but rather they would see them as wussy and afraid to confront their foes directly (the opposite of the Gnome example who think confronting directly is foolish).

    Anyway, I think you get the point.

    I do know that you would love to see every possible combination. But in the Role Playing Genre there is always a Lore to the world, and it will dictate these kinds of cultural things. Some worlds my have Gnomes that are tough and rough fighter types, but in some worlds they are pansy snobs who wouldn't ever be so insane as to let an enemy swing a club in their direction if they could help it. I'm sure as the Lore gets even more fleshed out and we start to learn more about each Races culture and traditions it will become more clear why each Race can or cannot be the various Classes.

    • 66 posts
    July 15, 2018 4:55 AM PDT

    In EQII they allowed any race/class combination.  After awhile all the ogre wizzys and gnome tanks began killing the immersion factor.

    • 156 posts
    July 15, 2018 8:18 AM PDT

    Why did it kill the immersion if it was part of the game world?

    • 66 posts
    July 16, 2018 1:42 AM PDT
    It killed the immersion because it was a game mechanic not consistent with races’ predisposition for intellect or savagery.

    Having a high elf want to become a necro or dark elf become a ranger made a small amount of sense due to the predisposition for being casters or scouts. It was when playing a race had little to no impact on your class choice.
    It began to feel a lot more like a game than a world.
    • 4415 posts
    July 16, 2018 3:44 AM PDT

    For one thing, it's a little late to change something as fundamental as this. But for the sake of discussion, to remove race/class restrictions would completely undermine the philosophy of lore driving design decisions. If Pantheon wants to be a truly immersive game, it has to take the lore seriously. And I actually don't think removing restrictions would be progressive at all - a lot of recent games do that and it dilutes the identity of the races. It's a bold move to re-implement restrictions. There are very good reasons for the race/class combos being the way they are. But it may not be immediately obviously just by looking at the chart. For a little more insight, I suggest you read this: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5342/february-s-newsletter-is-hot-off-the-press

    and this: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5021/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at July 16, 2018 3:44 AM PDT
    • 156 posts
    July 16, 2018 8:48 AM PDT

    Tahoe said: It killed the immersion because it was a game mechanic not consistent with races’ predisposition for intellect or savagery. Having a high elf want to become a necro or dark elf become a ranger made a small amount of sense due to the predisposition for being casters or scouts. It was when playing a race had little to no impact on your class choice. It began to feel a lot more like a game than a world.

    If a race/class pairing was allowed, I don't see how it was not immersive. It was part of the game world and it makes sense that some atypical members of a species may learn to do atypical things. Adventurers are not supposed to be the average member of a race in my opinion.

    • 2571 posts
    July 16, 2018 11:05 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Tahoe said: It killed the immersion because it was a game mechanic not consistent with races’ predisposition for intellect or savagery. Having a high elf want to become a necro or dark elf become a ranger made a small amount of sense due to the predisposition for being casters or scouts. It was when playing a race had little to no impact on your class choice. It began to feel a lot more like a game than a world.

    If a race/class pairing was allowed, I don't see how it was not immersive. It was part of the game world and it makes sense that some atypical members of a species may learn to do atypical things. Adventurers are not supposed to be the average member of a race in my opinion.

    They are though, that's the thing. If players don't represent the average member of a race culturally then almost the entire feel of a race goes out the window since players will encounter and interact with far more player characters of any given race than NPCs. You can't set up lore about gnomes being all about the arcane when you run across your 20th gnome warrior in a day, likewise if you run into a bunch of ogre wizards etc. Not to mention that then means they would need to add trainers/quests for those classes to each racial city, further breaking down the lore that it isn't a part of their culture...but really it is. 

    Players in things like D&D can get away with straying from whatever cultural norms but that's because they aren't running into others doing the same all over the world, only those in their group might be breaking the mold but otherwise the world/lore and cultures remain intact. 

    • 156 posts
    July 16, 2018 11:37 AM PDT

    I couldn't disagree more. Players are heroes/powerful figures of some sort in almost every game which makes them not the norm for a given society.

    Maybe we have a different view on immersion in general. If something is intentionally part of a game world, then for me by definition that same thing does not break immersion because it is part of said game world.

    Some examples:  The planet has 3 moons. At night I see 3 moons. Immersion not broken.  Orges are heavily muscled, large, and tough individuals, naturally gifted in the martial arts. Some however still persue arcane professions. I see an orge wizard. Immersion not broken because they exist in the game world. They may or may not be rare but if they are a part of the game world

    Immersion breaking example: Entering a dungeon and the first group you come across are talking about a new movie they saw ( assuming there are not movies in said game and they are referencing a real world movie ). Or characters named after other famous characters. Darth Vader the orge wizard, or human paladin, or dark myr druid would all be equally immersion breaking for me because of the name.

    I am not advocating for all games to allow all race/all class allowances for their games. I was only saying that if a game world has orge wizards, despite it not being the norm for them, then it shouldn't break your immersion in said game world. 

    • 2571 posts
    July 16, 2018 3:38 PM PDT

    Eh, we see things differently. If a world has ogre wizards it still wouldn't signal to me that ogre players should have the option as those ogre wizards would be from a different clan/upbringing/culture than that of a player ogre from Broken Maw. If a player wanted to be an ogre wizard then I would suggest to keep things more lore friendly and the server population representative of ogre lore/culture, to have the outlier nature of the pairing be gated behind a remort/progeny system. 

     

     

    • 156 posts
    July 16, 2018 7:17 PM PDT

    If the game had orge wizards as part of the background, how is being an orge wizard not representative of the orge lore/culture? I think that is the part I am not understanding. 

    • 1721 posts
    July 17, 2018 1:40 AM PDT

    The EQ2 problem was to have copy/pasted everything about EQ1 with broken barriers. Beeing it in game or not, the absence of class restriction made the overall design clunky because it was meant to be a follow-up of EQ, and yet it didn't respect it's heritage.

    I can see why it could be a problem having ogre wizards because of this, however, in a brand new game, I wouldn't see it as a problem of any sort.

    • 564 posts
    July 17, 2018 4:23 AM PDT

    Lore? na

    It's all about coolness, hidden lore, time and resources, balance, and VR's own racial view, regardless of current lore. Some cases where current lore just doesn't fit the class/race matrix:

    Why would a race interested in discovery, collective inertia, and the arcane(gnome) have members who choose backstabs and thievery instead? Surely the ones who went to prison for wanting to stop their brethren from stealing too much, don't believe in stealing? In Particular, how can gnomes stab effectively with bodies that weak (they absolutely cannot don armor) vs enemies that have no particular weak points or have hard to get to weak points (dragons)?

    Why would guys who enchant metal(dwarf) know anything whatsoever about enchanting brains (or have any interest)? ("peace is a product of strength")

    Why would a race heavily invested in war tactics(ogre) not be interested in scouting classes?

    Why would a race of literal savages(skar) have disciplined monks?

    Why would a third of elven culture who prefers ancient tradition not be even remotely interested in religion/ the tombs of their old pantheon? Particularly when it can aid them against the revenant whom they have quite the feud with?

    Why would a race of previously underwater beings(dark myr), who donate large portions of their brains to being able to tell where they are, and where everything is around them, in one of the arguably harshest natural living environments, not have the premier scouting/hunting class?

    Why would halflings use words to break one of the strongest of wills into submission (the laughing/silent wraith) and yet not be interested in a magic word that breaks the strongest of wills into submission (the enchanter description)?

    In the first place, why would some old dude who goes around collecting history be able to tell us anything even remotely accurate about who's good at what kind of fighting and who isn't?

     

    Because it's cool, not too hard to build, and/or fits with what we think of when we look at the races/classes BEFORE going into lore. Oh, and balance is probably in there somewhere too.

    Well to be fair, some or all might be based on lore. However, a good deal of it is definately not based on the small portion of potentially biased lore we were given. 

    As long as lore stays apparant in quests and whatnot I don't mind if the actual game mechanics don't mirror it perfectly. I honestly doubt it would be possible to write a good story that fits all of these mechanics=). Mr. author did a great job with what was provided!

    EDITed second line to make my stance more clear.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at July 18, 2018 8:13 PM PDT
    • 2571 posts
    July 17, 2018 11:34 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Why would a race heavily invested in war tactics(ogre) not be interested in scouting classes?

    Why would a race of literal savages(skar) have disciplined monks?

    Why would a third of elven culture who prefers ancient tradition not be even remotely interested in religion/ the tombs of their old pantheon? Particularly when it can aid them against the revenant whom they have quite the feud with?

    Why would a race of previously underwater beings(dark myr), who donate large portions of their brains to being able to tell where they are, and where everything is around them, in one of the arguably harshest natural living environments, not have the premier scouting/hunting class?

    Why would halflings use words to break one of the strongest of wills into submission (the laughing/silent wraith) and yet not be interested in a magic word that breaks the strongest of wills into submission (the enchanter description)?

    1) Anyone can scout, don't need rangers or rogues for that. 

    2) We don't know what Skar life is really like or how "savage" they are, we only have 2nd hand information/lore given by a former slave. Plenty of times in human history civilaztions have been called savage from the outside looking in but from the inside they were not, like many native tribes of the Americas. 

    3) There is nothing to suggest any elven deities present themselves with the rigidness of a cleric, their healer/peaceful god(s) are more than likely nature deities lending themselves to shamanism/druidism. 

    4) Again, anyone can scout. Dark Myr beginning their lives underwater would mean they would be unlikely to develop bows/ranged weaponry and less likely to learn tracking in order to be rangers (what tracks are there to follow underwater?), let alone would they be in tune with land based nature to commune with animals. 

    5) Halflings (and only some of them) were only given the gift of first magic, which was primarily to wield fire but otherwise is not a gift to the degree of traditional wizardry. 

    LucasBlackstone said:

    If the game had orge wizards as part of the background, how is being an orge wizard not representative of the orge lore/culture? I think that is the part I am not understanding. 

    Because those ogre wizards would be remote/not associated with the main ogre tribes, they would have learned any wizardry from elsewhere. 

    • 66 posts
    July 17, 2018 10:33 PM PDT

    It seems in game there would already be exceptions to the rules as player characters will be grouping up with other races to achieve mutually beneficial goals.

    Secondly in launch the classes being segregated to the diferenent regions makes sense, but maybe after launch with the evolution of the game world "lore" may begin to change with integration and cross polination of races, classes may open up.


    This post was edited by Tahoe at July 18, 2018 3:30 PM PDT
    • 66 posts
    July 17, 2018 10:47 PM PDT

    Being any race / class sounds dull, and does kinda sour the lore of that species, It also forces the devs to spit everyone out in the same spawning pool infront of the same npc that gives a generic "push you to the next npc in the questline";and dialogue like, "Hello (soandso), you're a fledgling (class), here's a (basicweapon) and a note for someone else!". Like this, your a Dwarf Paladin that spawns in the Paladins guild of the Dwarf city where you finally finished your training and accepted by your peers. Also you're not going to run into anyone disjointed like a Dwarf Summoner trying to hard to be different. There were never options for these civilizations to be something else becouse of their homeland / past and gods.

     

    • 564 posts
    July 18, 2018 8:02 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Why would a race heavily invested in war tactics(ogre) not be interested in scouting classes?

    Why would a race of literal savages(skar) have disciplined monks?

    Why would a third of elven culture who prefers ancient tradition not be even remotely interested in religion/ the tombs of their old pantheon? Particularly when it can aid them against the revenant whom they have quite the feud with?

    Why would a race of previously underwater beings(dark myr), who donate large portions of their brains to being able to tell where they are, and where everything is around them, in one of the arguably harshest natural living environments, not have the premier scouting/hunting class?

    Why would halflings use words to break one of the strongest of wills into submission (the laughing/silent wraith) and yet not be interested in a magic word that breaks the strongest of wills into submission (the enchanter description)?

    1) Anyone can scout, don't need rangers or rogues for that. 

    2) We don't know what Skar life is really like or how "savage" they are, we only have 2nd hand information/lore given by a former slave. Plenty of times in human history civilaztions have been called savage from the outside looking in but from the inside they were not, like many native tribes of the Americas. 

    3) There is nothing to suggest any elven deities present themselves with the rigidness of a cleric, their healer/peaceful god(s) are more than likely nature deities lending themselves to shamanism/druidism. 

    4) Again, anyone can scout. Dark Myr beginning their lives underwater would mean they would be unlikely to develop bows/ranged weaponry and less likely to learn tracking in order to be rangers (what tracks are there to follow underwater?), let alone would they be in tune with land based nature to commune with animals. 

    5) Halflings (and only some of them) were only given the gift of first magic, which was primarily to wield fire but otherwise is not a gift to the degree of traditional wizardry. 

    1) If you have no far sight and no sneak and no disguise capabilities, how exactly do you scout in an actual rl situation where enemies dont need you to walk within 3 meters of them in order to see/attack you?

    2) My main argument here is that the current race/class only loosely has anything to do with the lore, contrary to what many believe. So yea, I completely agree that the current description of Skar is probably not very accurate if they have monks. 

    3) I personally don't see it as mattering what the deities favor in particular since they can't really reach Terminus' side of the veil very easily. I imagine the cleric-tombs as a way to worship and build godlike powers, rather than powers from your god. Maybe Elves in general do prefer to worship through druidism/shamanism, but again, with tombs being so dang helpful against undead (revenant), I find it hard to believe that not even the most rigid elves are interested in cleric-tombs. 

    4). Sounds to me like a situation where the class is too hard to make rather than a lore thing. Tracking isn't just footprints(think sharks, for example), hunting does not require bows/crossbows (think throwing spears, for example). Putting this into a specific class/race combo, and then removing the other things would be difficult to balance and frankly really time consuming to make in the first place. 

    5). Many of the races don't have a mention anywhere in their given lore of a god giving them all of the elements (including whatever enchanters use, arcane?) before they could cast magic. Assuming that halflings are the only ones who actually need a god to give them magic, especially once they are in a world where many of the other races can use magic without any help from gods, is slightly unfair imo. 

     

    Iksar said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    If the game had orge wizards as part of the background, how is being an orge wizard not representative of the orge lore/culture? I think that is the part I am not understanding. 

    Because those ogre wizards would be remote/not associated with the main ogre tribes, they would have learned any wizardry from elsewhere. 

    The Pantheon ogres had mages to guard their book-tombs. Not much of a jump to wizards imo. Probably a case of a class/race that's too difficult for VR to transfer from the book to Pantheon mechanics (like dark myr ranger) rather than a lore thing. It is also probably related to the idea that by general, non pantheon specific ogre prejudices, ogres aren't good at magic because they are dumb and prefer using their arms. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at July 18, 2018 8:18 PM PDT
    • 1721 posts
    July 18, 2018 11:41 PM PDT

    Just to add to :

     

    4) Again, anyone can scout. Dark Myr beginning their lives underwater would mean they would be unlikely to develop bows/ranged weaponry and less likely to learn tracking in order to be rangers (what tracks are there to follow underwater?), let alone would they be in tune with land based nature to commune with animals.

     

    bows are perfectly fine working underwater, as much as are harpoons which are quite close to crossbows. Of course the projectile is slower, but it works. for tracks, I think that could be explained by gills, but that's just to make it credible, and isn't really the same field as land tracking.

    • 2571 posts
    July 19, 2018 4:52 PM PDT

    I mean anyone can kind of read whatever they want out of the limited lore. If you want to strip everything away then one could argue there is no reason any race can't be any class. The alternative is to just figure that in the expanded lore we don't have or general world building sense that there is a reason for the different restrictions. 

     

    Maybe the cleric tomes of humans/dwarves do absolutely nothing for elves even if they study them, could be that they are missing a special intangible thing instilled by whichever deities created humans/dwarves/myr.

    In that line of thought maybe Halfling were created without the "spark" of magic alltogether.

    Ogres having an "order of mages" does not mean they have wizards, a mage is: "a practitioner of magic, the ability to attain objectives or acquire knowledge or wisdom using supernatural means" which could easily be druids and/or shaman. 

    No idea what you might be thinking of in terms of scouting. I am thinking someone moving ahead of a larger group to see what is ahead, which anyone can do. 

    Yes bows can work underwater, but would an underwater race thing to create them? What wood substitute (and bowstring) would they find to use capable of providing the draw/force required? Beyond maybe some bone spears or particularly large tooth daggers/blades I can't think of many tools/resources they would have at their disposal. 

    • 800 posts
    July 20, 2018 12:55 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Just to add to :

     

    4) Again, anyone can scout. Dark Myr beginning their lives underwater would mean they would be unlikely to develop bows/ranged weaponry and less likely to learn tracking in order to be rangers (what tracks are there to follow underwater?), let alone would they be in tune with land based nature to commune with animals.

     

    bows are perfectly fine working underwater, as much as are harpoons which are quite close to crossbows. Of course the projectile is slower, but it works. for tracks, I think that could be explained by gills, but that's just to make it credible, and isn't really the same field as land tracking.

    I'm not arguing their choices of race/class combos anymore, but I just wanted to make a statement in defense of the arguement of tracking underwater... Sharks can literally smell blood.  Some animals can also detect heat traces, and then there are the ultimate predators that hunt (track) with sonar.  So theoretically, a species that could use all of its senses (heat sight, sonar, and smell) would be an ultimate tracker.  Arnold had to hide from the predator by masking his heat signature and scent with mud in the Predator :)

    And as far as using midevil bows underwater, they would be completely useless more than 15-20' (modern day harpoons are much different) but the Dark Myr are amphibious.  With that being said... I'd be willing to bet that being in an underwater zone/environment is not going to implement real world mechanics any way.  I bet people will be able to swim in 100lb armor, fire bows, and cast fireballs... There is also just as much "wildlife" and "nature" underwater as there is above. 

    So those arguements are all mute.  VR just wants the race/class choices the way they are regardless of logic, reason or real world facts used in their fictitious world.  Regardless of how cool a mermaid/merman Ranger protecting the seas would be.  Or a Dark Myr Paladin (formerly a Dark Myr Cleric which is a playable combo).

    • 800 posts
    July 25, 2018 7:47 AM PDT
    Their choice to have the race/class restrictions could also be a player retention (future money grab) too. Other games that have done this is the past have remove restrictions in order to entice players to try “something new and amazing!” Every MMO that has had restrictions like this has done it to some extent.
    • 564 posts
    July 25, 2018 5:48 PM PDT

    Darch said: Their choice to have the race/class restrictions could also be a player retention (future money grab) too. Other games that have done this is the past have remove restrictions in order to entice players to try “something new and amazing!” Every MMO that has had restrictions like this has done it to some extent.

    Very cool point, while we don't want our entertainment companies only thinking about money, companies do need money. So long as some sort of balance is maintained, I think this is a great way to get new subscriptions!

    However, as has been stated around the forum, this sort of thing would be really good for promoting progeny type systems too=)