Forums » The Rogue

Stealth Limitations

    • 98 posts
    June 29, 2018 9:19 PM PDT

    I hope that they remove the limitations on enemy types that rogue stealth can affect. I don't mean a level 10 rogue should be able to sneak past raid bosses and the likes, but the designators of living and non magical makes it seem like many enemies that hide and its variants won't work on. I would just like rogues to be able to run corpse recoveries and or scout in undead and construct infested areas as easily as areas with living non magical enemies. That seems to be in line with stealth ability in my opinion.


    This post was edited by LucasBlackstone at June 30, 2018 1:09 AM PDT
    • 513 posts
    June 30, 2018 7:00 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    I hope that they remove the limitations on enemy types that rogue stealth can affect. I don't mean a level 10 rogue should be able to sneak past raid bosses and the likes, but the designators of living and non magical makes it seem like many enemies that hide and its variants won't work on. I would just like rogues to be able to run corpse recoveries and or scout in undead and construct infested areas as easily as areas with living non magical enemies. That seems to be in line with stealth ability in my opinion.

    I agree with you on the actual free stealth ability where you can stealth so long as things wouldn't realistically see or hear you, but the one you use mana on to turn completely invisible should have definite weaknesses imo. 

    • 98 posts
    June 30, 2018 8:34 AM PDT

    Outside of oddball cases like raid mobs, what kind of weaknesses are you thinking of? It only has a couple purposes ( outside of pvp servers which in my opinion need so many changes to a majority of class abilities it isn't worth including them in the same discussions ) like scouting and corpse recovery. Also as a set up for some stealth based attacks, though the stealth ability I was referring to was out of combat and longer duration, not the quickie in combat versions. I don't see a reason to have many monsters see through it so it becomes unreliable or unuseable really.

    • 936 posts
    June 30, 2018 11:14 AM PDT

    I'm not advocating for a limited stealth or one that works all the time, but I would like more "Strategy" in the use of Stealthing.

     

    Too often in EQ was it a complete binary bypass, useable for scouting, corpse dragging, and why not : Corpse rezzing at a distant camp to skip mobs. Stealth should not be a binary skill which allows you to travel harmlessly or walk in the sight of mobs withouth a risk.

     

    On this matter I like how stealth worked in Wow, basically you were invisible to the mob as long as you stood far enough or in their back, but if you came too close in front or even crossed their hitbox, you would get detected and draw aggro. That way, stealth travelling included some pathing choices and wasn't a safe AFK tool either, you had to plan, work your way around, etc...

    The detection radius would depend of the difference of level with your ennemy, with of course a bigger arc in front, and few talents that would improve your stealth in one specialization.

    • 98 posts
    June 30, 2018 11:23 AM PDT

    WoW style stealth wasn't bad at all. I am fine with it or EQ style. My main concern so far from what I have read is how limited it is in enemy type and I am hoping that as you become better at it you can use it against more enemy types. Stealth is one of things that makes rogues stand out and I would like to not have zones where it becomes useless just because it's full of undead as an example.

    • 1273 posts
    June 30, 2018 3:17 PM PDT

    I have the feeling at certain levels rogues will probably get stealths that effect more opponents.

    That being said, I like how Vanguard did stealth.  It was your stealth vs your enemy's perception (which was basically their level).  The higher your stealth was against their perception, the closer you could get without getting detected.

    • 197 posts
    July 1, 2018 9:12 AM PDT

    You may have to find masters in the art of stealth and get them to train you; in order to improve stealth like your saying. 

     

    • 936 posts
    July 1, 2018 9:44 AM PDT

    azaya said:

    You may have to find masters in the art of stealth and get them to train you; in order to improve stealth like your saying. 

     

     

    That would be extremely interesting and engaging for a rogue. Beeing able to stealth only humanoids at first, then expan your art to wild animals that have better senses, then undeads, magical creatures and such by learning how to trick them, how to coat your armor in some deceiving substance, slowing your pulse, stop sweating, etc etc...

    • 149 posts
    July 1, 2018 11:05 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    azaya said:

    You may have to find masters in the art of stealth and get them to train you; in order to improve stealth like your saying.

    That would be extremely interesting and engaging for a rogue. Beeing able to stealth only humanoids at first, then expan your art to wild animals that have better senses, then undeads, magical creatures and such by learning how to trick them, how to coat your armor in some deceiving substance, slowing your pulse, stop sweating, etc etc...

    I know the rogue class description talks about being able to upgrade Shadow Walk to Shadow Dwell (the same basic ability but with no mana cost), and from the hints they have dropped, that will likely be from seeking out a master or some other similarly challenging task. I too think it would be cool if stealth were upgradable in other ways, like being more effective against different enemy types. If it is, I'm sure it will also be unlocked in some challenging and rewarding manner.

    • 98 posts
    July 2, 2018 9:33 AM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    azaya said:

    You may have to find masters in the art of stealth and get them to train you; in order to improve stealth like your saying.

    That would be extremely interesting and engaging for a rogue. Beeing able to stealth only humanoids at first, then expan your art to wild animals that have better senses, then undeads, magical creatures and such by learning how to trick them, how to coat your armor in some deceiving substance, slowing your pulse, stop sweating, etc etc...

    I know the rogue class description talks about being able to upgrade Shadow Walk to Shadow Dwell (the same basic ability but with no mana cost), and from the hints they have dropped, that will likely be from seeking out a master or some other similarly challenging task. I too think it would be cool if stealth were upgradable in other ways, like being more effective against different enemy types. If it is, I'm sure it will also be unlocked in some challenging and rewarding manner.

    I hope that is the case, or a revision of the hide/stealth ability to include non living and magical enemies from the start. It seems like a needless limitation to me in the sense that using stealth in a predominantly undead or magical enemy infested area wouldn't be overpowered as far as I can tell.

    • 58 posts
    July 2, 2018 4:56 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:I hope that is the case, or a revision of the hide/stealth ability to include non living and magical enemies from the start. It seems like a needless limitation to me in the sense that using stealth in a predominantly undead or magical enemy infested area wouldn't be overpowered as far as I can tell.

     

    Permanent/long term stealth is stupidly overpowered in every game I've seeen it implemented, especially any with a reasonable amount of solo gameplay.  Being able to waltz past (ignore)numerous mobs on the way to a quest objective, resource node, etc. is ridiculously powerful.

    • 98 posts
    July 2, 2018 8:48 PM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    LucasBlackstone said:I hope that is the case, or a revision of the hide/stealth ability to include non living and magical enemies from the start. It seems like a needless limitation to me in the sense that using stealth in a predominantly undead or magical enemy infested area wouldn't be overpowered as far as I can tell.

     

    Permanent/long term stealth is stupidly overpowered in every game I've seeen it implemented, especially any with a reasonable amount of solo gameplay.  Being able to waltz past (ignore)numerous mobs on the way to a quest objective, resource node, etc. is ridiculously powerful.

    Rogues are the antithesis of a solo class. Stealthing in the game is primarily used for scouting and corpse recovery. Depending on how Flash Bomb works it may be possible to split a small pull with it. Long term stealth is already in via Shadowwalk ( I think that is the name ). I just don't see why in Undead Zone x or Golem Zone y the special utility a rogue brings to group ( scouting via stealth ) is tossed out the window. On PVP servers stealth will serve another purpose obviously, and there I expect stealth changes along with many many others.

    Stealth in and of itself is not overpowered as far as I can tell.

    • 64 posts
    July 3, 2018 5:08 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Zyellinia said:

    LucasBlackstone said:I hope that is the case, or a revision of the hide/stealth ability to include non living and magical enemies from the start. It seems like a needless limitation to me in the sense that using stealth in a predominantly undead or magical enemy infested area wouldn't be overpowered as far as I can tell.

     

    Permanent/long term stealth is stupidly overpowered in every game I've seeen it implemented, especially any with a reasonable amount of solo gameplay.  Being able to waltz past (ignore)numerous mobs on the way to a quest objective, resource node, etc. is ridiculously powerful.

    Rogues are the antithesis of a solo class. Stealthing in the game is primarily used for scouting and corpse recovery. Depending on how Flash Bomb works it may be possible to split a small pull with it. Long term stealth is already in via Shadowwalk ( I think that is the name ). I just don't see why in Undead Zone x or Golem Zone y the special utility a rogue brings to group ( scouting via stealth ) is tossed out the window. On PVP servers stealth will serve another purpose obviously, and there I expect stealth changes along with many many others.

    Stealth in and of itself is not overpowered as far as I can tell.

     

    Wel, undead traditionally do not see the same way the living do - so being quiet and hiding in shadows means nothing to them.  Your Clerics have invisibility to undead, usually wizards don't.  So the Rogue having stealth for both would make the other differentiation odd. 

    So to me it makes total sense for Rogues not to be able to stealth through undead/golems (things not using sight or smell to 'see').  That said, I also have no issue of some Rogue master being able to enhance the stealth to be able to trick even the senses of these otherwordly beings so only the most advanced of such creatures would be able to see you (e.g. individual mobs scattered here and there who essentially have 'see invis' usually patrolling mobs rather that static ones)

    • 98 posts
    July 3, 2018 10:12 AM PDT

    asteldian said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Zyellinia said:

    LucasBlackstone said:I hope that is the case, or a revision of the hide/stealth ability to include non living and magical enemies from the start. It seems like a needless limitation to me in the sense that using stealth in a predominantly undead or magical enemy infested area wouldn't be overpowered as far as I can tell.

     

    Permanent/long term stealth is stupidly overpowered in every game I've seeen it implemented, especially any with a reasonable amount of solo gameplay.  Being able to waltz past (ignore)numerous mobs on the way to a quest objective, resource node, etc. is ridiculously powerful.

    Rogues are the antithesis of a solo class. Stealthing in the game is primarily used for scouting and corpse recovery. Depending on how Flash Bomb works it may be possible to split a small pull with it. Long term stealth is already in via Shadowwalk ( I think that is the name ). I just don't see why in Undead Zone x or Golem Zone y the special utility a rogue brings to group ( scouting via stealth ) is tossed out the window. On PVP servers stealth will serve another purpose obviously, and there I expect stealth changes along with many many others.

    Stealth in and of itself is not overpowered as far as I can tell.

     

    Wel, undead traditionally do not see the same way the living do - so being quiet and hiding in shadows means nothing to them.  Your Clerics have invisibility to undead, usually wizards don't.  So the Rogue having stealth for both would make the other differentiation odd. 

    So to me it makes total sense for Rogues not to be able to stealth through undead/golems (things not using sight or smell to 'see').  That said, I also have no issue of some Rogue master being able to enhance the stealth to be able to trick even the senses of these otherwordly beings so only the most advanced of such creatures would be able to see you (e.g. individual mobs scattered here and there who essentially have 'see invis' usually patrolling mobs rather that static ones)

    Other classes having stealth/invisibility against only certain enemy types makes sense to me in a balance sense because scouting and CR isn't the main thing they bring to the table so to speak. 

    I try not to apply too much logic to game abilities and view them in an overall balance sense because otherwise too much of any game falls apart. After fighting enemies for enemies for 4 hours straight one's armor and weapons should be nicked/scratched/damaged but they will look the same as when you started. In most games a fireball doesn't catch flammable things on fire but they usually don't. So when I view stealth as an ability I don't really compare it against the senses of a given enemy and instead view it as what can/does the ability do for the class in question. And from that viewpoint I think stealth should work on all enemy types so that a rogue can be equally useful in different areas. Outside of stealth rogues don't usually bring anything special to the group and noone wants to be "that" class. 

    • 45 posts
    July 3, 2018 12:31 PM PDT

    as someone wrote: there will be the possibility to earn "Shadow Dwell". Maybe through questline or fining a master deep in any dungeon. This means you will get one after your character growed up.

    In my oppinion perma stealth trivialzes some risk. but i cant agree with Zyellinia that perma stealth is overpowered. i don't know which games you played but in my experience real perma stealth doesn't existed.
    And it shouldn't exist. Any foe should have the posibility to detect stealthed players. depending on their skill to detect and the steath skill of the rogue. also it should depend on kind of foes.

    animals can better smell and hear. Also migic enemies maybe can look trough stealth (but this i don't like for one reason: Stealth isnt any invis. so magicans can detect invisibility but stealth is more natural so druids are more powerful to detect stealth). Also environment can give any bonus or malus for your stealth (noisy area, cave with a lot of loose rocks ..). you see there are a lot of variables these mixed with a good calculation. and a check every 3s if your stealth could be detected this is nice game play.

    • 197 posts
    July 9, 2018 3:08 PM PDT

    In the past, stealth traditionally came in 3 flavors.

    1 - Invisibility (Only works on the living and then only the living that cannot see invisible)

    2 - Invisibility vs Undead (Only works on undead, again only those undead that cannot see through it)

    3 - Hide/Sneak (works on pretty much anything so long as you stay behind some frontal cone of the mob your sneaking past)

    And, in EQ we could stack all 3 versions if done right.

    That said, I too would like to see stealth vs different types of mobs: Animals, Undead, Living.  Perhaps needing to train skill in all 3 realms.

     

    Rouges are sneaky after all, so they should be able to get past many things; that doesn't mean they will survive long if discovered however.  Also along those lines, a rouge should be able to hide again if discovered and they can get enough distance and block line of site from any pursuing mobs. But in such a situation, you would likely be easier to discover since they are now looking for you. 

    -Az

    • 98 posts
    July 9, 2018 10:18 PM PDT

    I hope that is the type of stealth they go with so rogues biggest utility asset isn't worthless in undead/magical creature themed zones.

    • 26 posts
    July 30, 2018 2:42 PM PDT

    Pufug said:

    as someone wrote: there will be the possibility to earn "Shadow Dwell". Maybe through questline or fining a master deep in any dungeon. This means you will get one after your character growed up.

    In my oppinion perma stealth trivialzes some risk. but i cant agree with Zyellinia that perma stealth is overpowered. i don't know which games you played but in my experience real perma stealth doesn't existed.
    And it shouldn't exist. Any foe should have the posibility to detect stealthed players. depending on their skill to detect and the steath skill of the rogue. also it should depend on kind of foes.

    animals can better smell and hear. Also migic enemies maybe can look trough stealth (but this i don't like for one reason: Stealth isnt any invis. so magicans can detect invisibility but stealth is more natural so druids are more powerful to detect stealth). Also environment can give any bonus or malus for your stealth (noisy area, cave with a lot of loose rocks ..). you see there are a lot of variables these mixed with a good calculation. and a check every 3s if your stealth could be detected this is nice game play.

     

    Im just being a brat here but I disagree.... real perma stealth does exist.... Snipers =) BOOM lol


    This post was edited by Nytman at July 30, 2018 2:42 PM PDT