Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Crafting Rewards: Time and Relevance

    • 5 posts
    June 17, 2018 2:47 AM PDT

    Hey all......my experience crafting was mostly WoW and EQ2. My early MMO days were spent on EQ1, and never made an investment (of time) into tradeskilling. There was a reason for that. I was too busy grouping and raiding to doink around making stuff. But in EQ2, my wife and I each had five experience level 100 toons, and each were level 100 tradeskillers. Our problem was with EQ2, we wanted to group and raid, but two reasons stopped us from enjoying that aspect of the game. The communication system, and the skills required by our peers to want us in their group or raid. I know this is off subject, but there was a connection. Because we we didn't have "millenial reflexes", we weren't the best players in the game. Coupled with that a sound system in voice chat that had feedback problems and such, it became uncomfortable to group because we could not communicate effectively with other players. Who wants two baby boommers with slower reactions, and faulty communication system in their group? Haha, no one. So we spent years just playing as a duo, getting as far as we could with questing, and immersed our selves into crafting to find relevance. 

    Our biggest criticism of crafting as we know it, is that it always seemed like the items you were finally able to craft were for a lower level than your main character was. There were exceptions to that. However, if you were not able to raid in top tier dungeons, you couldn't get top tier formulas, or patterns. So the crafting system was dependent on the raiding system. Which is fine. Because many peeps felt that someone who exclusively tradeskilled should not be able to produce gear that was raid worthy. Why is that? Why would someone who thinks there game play skillset be the only ones rewarded with top tier gear? What is the harm with someone who puts the time and thought into tradeskilling not be able to produce gear that would allow them to be viable entering a top tier dungeon? We, as humans, only have so much time on this globe. When we choose to spend our valuable time in a virtual world, there should be relevance to that time spent. Time is most precious in a game and in real life. Let the tradeskillers reap reward too. 

    After having said all this, our hopes is that Pantheon's game play pace is better suited to our eventual game play skills. Because we are older players and our reaction time is not as quick as those of younger years, that doesn't mean we cannot be valuable members of groups and raids. We are loyal to commitments, steady players who follow directions and listen. And we pay attention to every detail of an encounter and try our best to benefit the group or raid. 

    PvP is not for us. Team work is. But our hopes are that we are not forced once again to become strictly tradeskillers, because no one wants us to group or raid. If a guild benefits from its tradeskillers, then a guild would surely want folks like us. But we would love this new MMO even more if we were viable for grouping and raiding as well as what our time spent tradeskilling could benefit a guild. 

    In closing, a tradeskill system should not be dependent on how advanced a player becomes raid wise. An mmo can appeal to a larger audience if the time spent on tradeskilling can produce game end results without having to be in a top tier raiding guild. Intelligence and time invested should be rewarded, as well as all the exploring one does to accumulate the resources used in crafting. 

    We hope to find a home in Pantheon, and be relevant whether we are raid worthy, or only tradeskill worthy, as we can contribute to a guild our time and find friendships we cherish. 

     

    Cheers all.....thanks for reading my ramblings lol

    • 768 posts
    June 17, 2018 3:40 AM PDT

    I fully agree. It is a inspiring thought to think of tradeskillers that are that advanced in their trade that players will go look for them to trade or even recruit for their own guild. 

    An expert tradeskiller could be a requirement for a raider as well, so for me it does not only go one direction raid -> patterns -> improvement of tradeskiller. 

    Through commerce/alliances and none raid context a tradeskiller could claim or advance to a higher or unique mold/pattern/formula system. That which is only available to those tradeskillers that are willing to show that devotion towards the none-raid content of the game and the gaminghours.

    The question here, would be how much % of the active player base would choose such a playstyle and how much % is required to make it for the dev's a worthwhile investement and/or extension?

     

    • 5 posts
    June 17, 2018 4:01 AM PDT

    I see your point in regards to a small percentage of the Dev's market wanting a tradeskill only playstyle. My initial point while playing EQ1 was.....the grouping and raiding was so immersing, that I did not even take the time to do any tradeskilling. Trying to beat another guild to a boss was more important lol. Tradeskilling became for us, the only way to advance after the signiture quest lines were completed in EQ2. But that advancement was halted as we were not raiding in the top tier dungeons. Thank you for your response, Barin999. Have a great day.....and Happy Fathers Day to all the Father's out there !!!


    This post was edited by Macdan at June 17, 2018 8:15 AM PDT
    • 189 posts
    June 17, 2018 12:03 PM PDT

    I believe they have mentioned quite a few details about their crafting. There's a whole newsletter section about it, there's some questions answered by Brad McQuaid himself about it in his AMA, there are streams and forum posts about it.

    And VR has expressed that they are aware of the variety of adventurers that will be exploring their game.

     

    You don't have to be a tradeskiller. You can be a harvester during your down time waiting for raid to get together and supply your crafters. Or you can be a tradeskiller and have people in your guild feed you mats and be relevant. It does take time. You're going to have a variety of players in Pantheon. Some who don't enjoy crafting or harvesting, some who only enjoy doing one, some who enjoy doing BOTH. Some people will have the time to do both; while others only have enough time to get on and assist in raids and dungeons.

    • 73 posts
    June 17, 2018 11:33 PM PDT

    It's too bad they couldn't mix crafting and adventuring a little more so you could do both, even with limited time.

    Vanguard Saga of Heros worked their diplomacy, which was kind of like a tradeskill, into some dungeons where a player with high enough skill could turn off traps and stuff like that.

    I think it would be a great idea for items to drop that a specific tradeskiller could make use of on the spot. The items would decay rather quickly requiring quick action. It could give your group a buff, weaken mobs, open paths, etc. Something like this could make tradeskillers a valuable asset for groups or raids while allowing them to improve their trade, and increase their access to material and schematics.

    I have always avoided crafting because it was always more rewarding to go on a raid or dungeon crawling. Now if there were a way to do a little crafting while in between battles, that would also benefit the group, I would seriously consider taking up a trade.

    • 5 posts
    June 18, 2018 6:27 AM PDT

    Hopefully, we can strike a balance between group adventuring and useful tradeskill time. Making items, enchants, potions, etc that are useful to your present level would be awesome. But seriously, if this game is set up right, and it sounds like it will be (faith in McQuaid), we won't want to be spending much downtime on tradeskilling.....time will tell 8)

    • 259 posts
    June 18, 2018 7:44 AM PDT

    As an older player I can relate to and understand your opinion on this subject. I played and crafted in EQ2 as well.

    As a crafter I can absolutely relate.

    One of my biggest pet peeves has always been not being able to craft level appropriate items and gear. I believe that this type of system is flawed, and it is a big mistake that many game companies have followed.

    I am currently playing P99 and crafting Blacksmithing for my characters and I love the fact that my little cleric can make armor and weapons that are very useful and level appropriate for my Paly. He is decked out in a full set of banded armor and using a Warhammer that I crafted, and it is exactly what he needs at his current level.

    If you are going to dedicate your time and effort to build your tradeskill your crafted items should reflect that.

    • 70 posts
    June 18, 2018 8:13 AM PDT

    I agree on this topic as well.  Crafting is an important skill.  The things you make should be worthy of adventuring into raids, dungeons etc.

    A crafter will have to work hard to be able to craft high level and awesome equipment, but should be able to do it with much effort and practice.  I love a system where my character faces rewards and failures for the work he does.  In a system like Vanguard's crafting, the rewards came in the form of crafting gear and tools that improve crafting results.  In EQ2 crafting was quite fun too and rewarded for experimentation.  I would much prefer Vanguard crafting tho for the pure adrenaline rush that came from crafting.  I spent many a weekend raising a few levels.  I loved it and miss it.

    I hope crafters can become so good at their trade that they may just focus on that if they desire.  Some of us really prefer that style of gaming.  I know I could just craft and craft forever!  Same with Harvesting, and exploration.  Very fun ways to play games.  I want to see the viability of crafters in this game.


    This post was edited by Baldrith at June 18, 2018 8:15 AM PDT
    • 5 posts
    June 18, 2018 10:55 AM PDT

    Agreed Shyin and Baldrith !!! I have heard many good things about Vanguard's crafting system. Hoping Pantheon can even improve on that !!! Woot....just chatting about this new game is raising my level of anticipation. But I am happy to hear the game will progress through beta's and then live when "it is ready". Coolos~

    • 1315 posts
    June 18, 2018 11:54 AM PDT

    For crafting to really be relevant at least 50% of items in use needs to have passed through crafters hands.  I would personally prefer that at least 50% of items were actually crafted items and all other items benefit from the attentions of the appropriate crafter.  I also like the idea of certain node harvesting and recipe collecting requires crafters to go out into the field rather than just purchasing everything.

    That being said I think readily available materials should be able to be used to take you to maximum level in crafting.  In game money should not be the limit on what level a crafter reaches but rather how much time the crafter has put in to raise their skill, similar to what an adventurer needs.  Not saying that you will not need to invest resources into your skills but rather the output often offsets the costs.

    I hope the final iteration of trade skills are more like a secondary crafting class with its own level and different skills that have both skill ranks and crafting powers.

    An example would be blacksmith.  Blacksmith has 50 levels just like your adventure class.  The blacksmith class has the following skills similar to weapon skills and casting skills: Smelting, Forging, Welding, Heat Treating (quenching, annealing, hardening, and tempering together), casting, and finishing.  Additionally they will have ranks in Copper, Tin, Bronze, Iron, Steel as common materials and a host of lore appropriate advanced materials.

    The actual Blacksmith level can increase doing any crafting task with any material with your chance of failure effecting the amount of experience earned.  Using a higher level technique or a new material you are unfamiliar with will increase your chance of failing and needing to smelt the material but you still get more experience failing to make something than you would from making something you have a 100% success rate and a bonus if you happen to succeed.  It could be possible by just making iron items to get to lvl 50 smithing with all your manufacturing skills maxed but you would only really be able to work iron and everything else would be a mystery to you, doing so though will take a great deal of boring repetition.

    In order to safely use a smithing technique on a material your material skill rank needs to be within one tier of the manufacturing skill rank that the technique was unlocked at.  The base crafting exp earned is based on the manufacturing skill rank that the technique was unlocked at and the modifier is something like (150-%chance to succeed)/(%chance to succeed [Min 25%]).  Additionally not all techniques will be effective on all materials such as forging-folding on iron ruins the material as it is too brittle and does nothing for bronze as the layers just merge back together each heat but it works great for steel and higher quality materials.  Failures within one tier of the material skill will only ruin the piece such that it can be re-smelted back to the starting materials less the added processing ingredients, basically preserving the drop/harvested portion.

    The process of crafting one single item can require many, many sub steps starting from raw materials and working through the crafting process where the player’s choices will affect the final stats of the item.  The final step will usually be an assembly step that also can be when the final quality level is decided and will have its own experience reward based on the smithing skill required to learn the recipe independent of the material used.  Basically the processes used to make a bronze breastplate would be roughly the same as a mithril breastplate but which crafting techniques used may be different which in turn effects the final outcome.

    When a new expansion with a new material comes out smiths will need to start back at square one with that material and work it up through the ranks until it can be used with all of its manufacturing abilities.  New manufacturing abilities could also be learned that can be applied to all appropriate materials and recipes already in the game.

    I would also add durability to items and having appraising, repairing, refurbishing and upgrading items of your craft be both a way to use the skill on a daily basis and as a method of raising your skills.

    This ended up being more of a wall of text than I originally intended but I feel like it’s a good way to make crafting relevant by making items customizable to match the users’ needs and be cost effective over acquiring very rare dropped items.

    Trasak

    • 1785 posts
    June 18, 2018 1:32 PM PDT

    I don't have a ton of time to respond like I want to right now but I really like this discussion and will try to come back to it.  In the meantime I wanted to point you all to some other threads that I think are relevant as well :)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7610/complexity-when-crafting

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7560/finding-recipes

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7497/player-driven-crafting-board

    There are proably a few others but I'm going to make myself late... more later!

     

    • 145 posts
    June 19, 2018 10:06 AM PDT

    I hate to keep harkening back to Vanguard but the system they had in Vanguard I felt was about as good as it gets. Crafters could craft higher level gear than their level if their crafting skill was high enough. Earyl on in Vanguard there was quite a few people that specifically crafted. They reached level 10-30 and just stopped and crafted. I supplied many of the crafters with harvesting materials because I was a harvesting junky. Most of the guys I seen were making lvl 48 gear and they were only level 20 or 30. As long as they had connections to the higher level materials they could keep on crafting. So I snuck into some higher level areas and harvested all the materials I could for them and made a mint. Many times I would get experimental gear from them as well.

    There were 3 areas. All contributed to making houses/guild halls and then had their certain areas for gear. Artificers made the stone blocks for houses/guild halls and then jewelry and some hammers. Outfitters made the thatching and roofs for houses/guild halls and then cloth/leather gear. Blacksmiths made ingots/horseshoes and heavy plate gear. All had their reasons for starting them. Each of the 3 spheres had 2 roads. If you were a blacksmith you would choose armorsmith or weaponsmith at level 15, and Outfitter you chose leather or cloth at 15 etc. So it more personalized your trade.

    Some recipes or quests were in higher level areas, but nothing that a lower level with the help of a guild or friends couldn't aquire. These were usually your more valuable and money making recipes. Then came some Ancient Port Warehouse (raid zone) class spefic gear, and then pantheon raid gear that also required mostly crafting to do. Which made crafters even more valuable. It was just nicely done and there was never a shortage of need for a crafter.

    On top of being needed throughout the game the crafting system was set up very nicely. It was a process. It got more complicated the higher level you got. Started out with 2 or 3 stages then ended up with 5 or 6. Complications would arise during the process and you had to either solve them or choose to work through them. Crafting gear made the complications less and less so there was a need to keep crafting gear up to date and current.

    I spent many many hours and days crafting. I had 3 different characters that could all craft and had a lot of fun bringing them up. The crafting instructors and material holders had work orders you could do for them to raise experience and and get materials and items from. It was such a great combination and just overall extremely well done. I remember crafting being the saving grace of a game littered with bugs when released. Many people barely held on through it all because of crafting.


    This post was edited by Moloka at June 19, 2018 10:08 AM PDT