Ainadak said:disposalist said:The /inspect function gets what you wanted. Also, no one is suggesting candy canes and bare chests. I'd be fine with cosmetic look having to match the armor type you are wearing.
If people will be toggling off seeing cosmetics then bothering to use them will be largely pointless.
Thanks @Iksar for the linking, etc. I have to say I'm thoroughly disppointed.
I don't really want what people think of as 'cosmetics'. I want to be able to use the look of an item I've previously worn is all. Nothing weird or fancy - mostly to *avoid* looking weird or fancy.
If cosmetics are going to be Santa hats and bikinis, then I don't want them at all. They don't have to be that way at all. Oh well.
If cosmetics follow the reasonable rules you set forth, lacking eye sore tier costumes, then wouldn't it stand to reason that many people would be using cosmetics? I would guess at the following breakdown...
1) Very small population of those who like the "realism" of the hodgepodge mess of an adventurer scrounging gear off their foes. Aesthetic is an afterthought and that's how it should be.
2) A minority of players who like to see exactly what a player has equipped for their stats and showing off their accomplishments. Everything is by the numbers and aesthetics don't enter into the equation.
3) A majority of players who prefer all characters (but often especially their own) to look good. Tastes vary wildly from just wanting to avoid the hodgepodge mess on one end to wearing bikinis on the other.
Even if the cosmetics rules are conservative, then the limited cosmetics are still closer to a bikini than the hodgepodge mess, so all of group 3 will turn on cosmetics. If that line of thinking is accurate, then would it still bother you that a minority of players have turned cosmetics off? At what ratio of the population having cosmetics off vs. on do they become "largely pointless"?
Very nice post. You're right that it comes down to that ratio. With even a small ratio, though, it is definitely worth less, but at what point worthless? I don't know and the point is it is hard to say and you won't know how many people turn it off anyway.
For me, if the switch is there I won't bother using cosmetics. If I know 'some' people won't see me then I won't bother doing it, I'll have to concentrate on the usually struggle and disappointment with mismatched basic armor looks so I at least know everyone will see 'my character'.
AgentGenX said: I thought this game was NOT going to have a cash shop? Also, is there anyone here who would play with the toggle on? Aside from maybe RPers, it seems everyone's saying they will have it off. Personally, I'd rather see their true gear, so I'll probably have it off too.
You hit upon two important points.
1) Why do VR seem to think costume items will be unsightly? *They* are in charge of them. If there isn't going to be a cash shop full of weirdness what's the problem?
2) It's a role-playing game. The look of one's character is a *massive* part of the role you play. If you remove control over that it has a huge impact on the identity of your character and your immersion in the game.
I want to make one last point here. I know that this appears to be one of those issues where VR have made their decision and it may be largely pointless to debate. I like to discuss these things anyway and I'm not looking to 'fight' the decision or cause a fuss or whatever.
The point is this: I think 'cosmetic' items are different to what I want and maybe two systems could be employed.
If VR don't think they can make cosmetic items that won't annoy some people (seems an odd stance, but ok) then perhaps allow people to 'save' the look of an item they've worn. Make it rare by it needing to 'consume' the item you want to 'save'. Allow people to override the look of current items by a 'saved' one.
For those that seem desperate to know exactly what items I'm wearing just by looking: -
1) Why should you? A lot of people want to turn off /inspect. Why should you be able to bypass that privacy?
2) Most people won't resist /inspect though, so if you must know (and often you won't know just by looking anyway) use /inspect
3) Even with great modern graphics items won't look as 'real' as some would like. If I want to look like I've worn the same armor for a year (because I have) I can't because it all always looks shiny and new.
4) You don't know what I've done or where I've been or how good I am by seeing my gear. You'll have no idea if it was a gift or a purchase or luck or whatever. Gear does not tell the story of my character, but me choosing my look would. If you want to know me, then you will want to see the items that I'm most proud of from my whole career not what happens to be best in slot this week.
5) This is a role-playing game. I know for some it's all about the loot, but for some it's an RPG and enjoyment is based in the place our character has in the world. How people see our character is important.
Anyway, that's it. I think I understand all the arguments and I respect VR's stance (though it has some weird and worrying implications about what they think 'cosmetic' items might be like) I just think having cosmetics (giving control over your look) then adding a switch (giving that control away) is weird.
Hmm well, I will say that this topic is less important to me than topics like stiff death penalty or one character not being able to do everything, etc. For me personally, having transmogs won't put a negative on my game experience. I may even participate - in WoW, I enjoyed changing my gear to a cool looking apperance. I guess having the option to toggle appearance kind of makes me feel less motivated knowing others won't see my cool look. But in the end, as long as it doesn't affect the gameplay (and it won't for me), I'm happy to have it in the game knowing it will bring many others enjoyment.
disposalist said:If VR don't think they can make cosmetic items that won't annoy some people
disposalist said:5) This is a role-playing game. I know for some it's all about the loot, but for some it's an RPG and enjoyment is based in the place our character has in the world. How people see our character is important.
For me personally it isn't the way items look that "annoy" me, rather that they are cosmetic items in the first place. Funnily enough my problem with that is that it IS an RPG. Now I get that RPG means widely different things to different people but a big part of it to me is building a character to play. I like being able to see a character wearing a certain chestpiece, looking at it and then being able to tell the power of others from just a glance. To me, if that powerful chestpiece is instead something else visually, it breaks my immersion. In fact, it doesn't make any sense to me at all that a roleplayer would like the (lets say) bum in rags they are roleplaying in fact be dressed in epic gear.
If there is no way to gauge the gear a player is wearing just by looking at it, then I don't see the point of having gear show up on characters at all, just let people design their characters however they want.
Idk maybe I'm rambling but to me, not having cosmetic gear (or being able to toggle it off) is absolutely crucial from the standpoint of immersion.
Spluffen said:disposalist said:If VR don't think they can make cosmetic items that won't annoy some people
disposalist said:5) This is a role-playing game. I know for some it's all about the loot, but for some it's an RPG and enjoyment is based in the place our character has in the world. How people see our character is important.
For me personally it isn't the way items look that "annoy" me, rather that they are cosmetic items in the first place. Funnily enough my problem with that is that it IS an RPG. Now I get that RPG means widely different things to different people but a big part of it to me is building a character to play. I like being able to see a character wearing a certain chestpiece, looking at it and then being able to tell the power of others from just a glance. To me, if that powerful chestpiece is instead something else visually, it breaks my immersion. In fact, it doesn't make any sense to me at all that a roleplayer would like the (lets say) bum in rags they are roleplaying in fact be dressed in epic gear.
If there is no way to gauge the gear a player is wearing just by looking at it, then I don't see the point of having gear show up on characters at all, just let people design their characters however they want.
Idk maybe I'm rambling but to me, not having cosmetic gear (or being able to toggle it off) is absolutely crucial from the standpoint of immersion.
How can it break immersion unless you somehow know what that person is actually wearing? Personally I don't think someone else has any 'right' to know what my gear is at all. It's no big-deal-breaker, but why should they?
As long as costume pieces are of the same type, which I absolutely would want, then how would you even be aware?
I don't want to see 'a bum in rags' either, but if the costume items are simply 'saved' looks from real armour you've worn and has to be the same type as your current item, you won't get that. That person who wants to look like they've been adventuring without a bath for a year (which they have) can choose to perhaps look like they are wearing the rusty plate mail they used to actually wear.
It's only immersion breaking if your imagination only runs as far as expecting people to look like stereotypical MMORPG game avatars, ie. at high-level they are blindingly shiny, glowing, sparkling or whatever. Me, I prefer my heroes to look more subtle and gritty.
In LOTRO there is very little flashy magic and shiny huge armors. In WoW the amount of massive, glowing shoulderpads is ridiculous. In EQ Classic the primary coloured patchworks you got were hilariously unimmersive, but that was the times. The whole issue of meeting multiple people with *exactly* the same armor pieces like they've come of a magic armor factory production line was *not* immersive.
I'm hoping Pantheon leans toward subtle and gritty, but if you get the occasional weird glowing thing, you can hide it.
If I imagine I were actually in the game and I got a Breastplate of the Shining Sun, I would be covering it in something that dulls the shine and/or putting a muddy cloak or worn tabard over the top. I don't want to look like some kids story book knight. I doubt we'll be able to do that in Pantheon. Transmogs or costume override is the next best thing.
disposalist said:How can it break immersion unless you somehow know what that person is actually wearing?
Because the stats and look of the item are part of a cohesive whole. Stats in-game represent something that is part of the fantasy, they are part of the role-play.
disposalist said:It's only immersion breaking if your imagination only runs as far as expecting people to look like stereotypical MMORPG game avatars, ie. at high-level they are blindingly shiny, glowing, sparkling or whatever. Me, I prefer my heroes to look more subtle and gritty.
If you wanted to look subtle and gritty, I'm sure there will be plenty of items that look that way. Magical-looking gear has better stats because it is magical, not because power-gamers require new stats. If you want rusty looking gear, wear rusty gear. At least that's my opinion. Maybe this analogy is ridiculous but in my kitchen I have a really crappy stove which also looks the part. If I had the money to buy a fancy stove that heats up quickly, I could do so. That stove wouldn't look like it was from the 70s, though, because it would be a brand new fancy stove.
Spluffen said:disposalist said:How can it break immersion unless you somehow know what that person is actually wearing?
Because the stats and look of the item are part of a cohesive whole. Stats in-game represent something that is part of the fantasy, they are part of the role-play.
Well, that's a fundamental difference between us there, then. For me, stats are part of the video game, not the role-playing and the stats have little to do with the look except that players have grown to expect flashy, glittery shinies along with big stats.
Spluffen said:disposalist said:It's only immersion breaking if your imagination only runs as far as expecting people to look like stereotypical MMORPG game avatars, ie. at high-level they are blindingly shiny, glowing, sparkling or whatever. Me, I prefer my heroes to look more subtle and gritty.
If you wanted to look subtle and gritty, I'm sure there will be plenty of items that look that way. Magical-looking gear has better stats because it is magical, not because power-gamers require new stats. If you want rusty looking gear, wear rusty gear. At least that's my opinion. Maybe this analogy is ridiculous but in my kitchen I have a really crappy stove which also looks the part. If I had the money to buy a fancy stove that heats up quickly, I could do so. That stove wouldn't look like it was from the 70s, though, because it would be a brand new fancy stove.
You can most definitely buy brand-new cookers that look from just about any era from early 1900s Arga, through 1950s style Smeg and others.
Most people absolutely like to seperate style from function.
I'm not trying to cause an argument, just saying your opinion is clearly very different.
“Does it come in black?”
I want a fair amount of control over how my characters are represented in game. I have never personally liked the flashy, particle effect ridden, gaudy raid gear. I also think that the gaudy look should be something that requires in game achievements and not because I decided to drop $100 on Louis 14ths tourney armor.
So basically I want my cake and eat it too. I want to be able to subdue the appearance of rare and fancy looking armor into a fairly coherent looking appearance with the rest of my equipment and I want that to be the only way my character can be viewed. Additionally I only want the fancy appearances to be available on high end dropped/crafted gear and require salvaging that level of gear for a style effect to be applied to the crafted gear and only if the base item is of a similar quality to the dropped item.
The ability of a crafter to apply a style effect on armor should in itself be an individual recipe/challenge that can differentiate one crafter from another.
All of this makes more sense if player crafted gear makes up at least 50% of the item market and not a tiny minority.
Trasak
In a game where your gear carries more or less all of your stat boosts you have no choice but to wear the best stat gear you can find/afford. Obviously this will result in a mix-and-match look. This is immersion-breaking.
Consider some fantasy world, any fantasy world, where your persona starts out low and achieves great things. In the process your character grows in power and strength, acquires items, etc. But all the while they look the way they want to look because *the character* is improving not just because of the magical gear but because they're learning and improving. They still look the way they want. It makes little sense that you can change your outfit and suddenly be weaker or stronger. For this reason having a cosmetic option in these MMOs that others can't simply disable is important.
Let people appear the way they want rather than the way they're forced to look. I, for one, am a huge fan of cosmetic slots (way more than transmog). It makes the game more enjoyable.
Akilae said:In a game where your gear carries more or less all of your stat boosts you have no choice but to wear the best stat gear you can find/afford. Obviously this will result in a mix-and-match look. This is immersion-breaking.
Consider some fantasy world, any fantasy world, where your persona starts out low and achieves great things. In the process your character grows in power and strength, acquires items, etc. But all the while they look the way they want to look because *the character* is improving not just because of the magical gear but because they're learning and improving. They still look the way they want. It makes little sense that you can change your outfit and suddenly be weaker or stronger. For this reason having a cosmetic option in these MMOs that others can't simply disable is important.
Let people appear the way they want rather than the way they're forced to look. I, for one, am a huge fan of cosmetic slots (way more than transmog). It makes the game more enjoyable.
First off you are not forced to use the best stat gear you can find/afford. I knew quite a few people in old EQ that specifically went after things like the Golden Effreeti Boots just because they wanted the appearance of yellow/gold shoes to go with a black robe. This was long after they were the best gear these people could get. I have known people to do that with weapons and chest peices, you name it. Not having the best gear doesnt gimp you unless you take it to an extreme like wearing all level 5 gear at level 50. Maybe if you are a top tier raider it does but for the average player you can make those sacrifices, those choices.
And I don't really see why some of you want to force me to see you as you want to be seen and not as you are. Seems fake to me. You have to look at it from my side, I don't think you are creative, pretty, or amazing based off your fake appearance. It can serve no other purpose to a player like me other than to trick me. I gain nothing from it. By giving me a toggle you are not harmed or inconvenince in any way. There will still be thousands of other player that choose to keep the toggle on. Those players I am sure will think you are creative, pretty, and amazing. The best part is you will not know who is seeing you in what way unless you ask. You can go around the whole time thinking everyone is seeing your cosmetic appearance and be happy while doing it.
I understand that it makes the game more enjoyable to you. And probably role players in general love it. But it does not make it enjoyable to me. And as long as there is a toggle you can have your appearance slots and I won't say a word about them. Everyone wins except people that want to control how others experience the game. Please don't try to control or ruin my experience just because you want to force your fake appearance on me. I don't want to see it.
Sabot said:Akilae said:In a game where your gear carries more or less all of your stat boosts you have no choice but to wear the best stat gear you can find/afford. Obviously this will result in a mix-and-match look. This is immersion-breaking.
Consider some fantasy world, any fantasy world, where your persona starts out low and achieves great things. In the process your character grows in power and strength, acquires items, etc. But all the while they look the way they want to look because *the character* is improving not just because of the magical gear but because they're learning and improving. They still look the way they want. It makes little sense that you can change your outfit and suddenly be weaker or stronger. For this reason having a cosmetic option in these MMOs that others can't simply disable is important.
Let people appear the way they want rather than the way they're forced to look. I, for one, am a huge fan of cosmetic slots (way more than transmog). It makes the game more enjoyable.
First off you are not forced to use the best stat gear you can find/afford. I knew quite a few people in old EQ that specifically went after things like the Golden Effreeti Boots just because they wanted the appearance of yellow/gold shoes to go with a black robe. This was long after they were the best gear these people could get. I have known people to do that with weapons and chest peices, you name it. Not having the best gear doesnt gimp you unless you take it to an extreme like wearing all level 5 gear at level 50. Maybe if you are a top tier raider it does but for the average player you can make those sacrifices, those choices.
And I don't really see why some of you want to force me to see you as you want to be seen and not as you are. Seems fake to me. You have to look at it from my side, I don't think you are creative, pretty, or amazing based off your fake appearance. It can serve no other purpose to a player like me other than to trick me. I gain nothing from it. By giving me a toggle you are not harmed or inconvenince in any way. There will still be thousands of other player that choose to keep the toggle on. Those players I am sure will think you are creative, pretty, and amazing. The best part is you will not know who is seeing you in what way unless you ask. You can go around the whole time thinking everyone is seeing your cosmetic appearance and be happy while doing it.
I understand that it makes the game more enjoyable to you. And probably role players in general love it. But it does not make it enjoyable to me. And as long as there is a toggle you can have your appearance slots and I won't say a word about them. Everyone wins except people that want to control how others experience the game. Please don't try to control or ruin my experience just because you want to force your fake appearance on me. I don't want to see it.
It's interesting in some extent, because you're basically harmed if people push you something you don't want, and propose to push them something they don't want either. I wouldn't say it's an even situation of some sort, however.
Sabot said:First off you are not forced to use the best stat gear you can find/afford. I knew quite a few people in old EQ that specifically went after things like the Golden Effreeti Boots just because they wanted the appearance of yellow/gold shoes to go with a black robe. This was long after they were the best gear these people could get. I have known people to do that with weapons and chest peices, you name it. Not having the best gear doesnt gimp you unless you take it to an extreme like wearing all level 5 gear at level 50. Maybe if you are a top tier raider it does but for the average player you can make those sacrifices, those choices.
And I don't really see why some of you want to force me to see you as you want to be seen and not as you are. Seems fake to me. You have to look at it from my side, I don't think you are creative, pretty, or amazing based off your fake appearance. It can serve no other purpose to a player like me other than to trick me. I gain nothing from it. By giving me a toggle you are not harmed or inconvenince in any way. There will still be thousands of other player that choose to keep the toggle on. Those players I am sure will think you are creative, pretty, and amazing. The best part is you will not know who is seeing you in what way unless you ask. You can go around the whole time thinking everyone is seeing your cosmetic appearance and be happy while doing it.
I understand that it makes the game more enjoyable to you. And probably role players in general love it. But it does not make it enjoyable to me. And as long as there is a toggle you can have your appearance slots and I won't say a word about them. Everyone wins except people that want to control how others experience the game. Please don't try to control or ruin my experience just because you want to force your fake appearance on me. I don't want to see it.
I would settle for crafted items to be fully viable even in end game raids and the appearance of those crafted items be very configurable to the player’s tastes. Then you will see the actual appearance of the items I am using and I will have the ability to control my overall appearance. Another option would be for the game to include surcoats and outer robes/cloaks that over write the general appearance of the items I am wearing and if I decide to make myself inspect able then you can see what I am using but if I mark myself as non-inspect able you only see my surcoat.
I personally think once the Dev controlled crafting change is done it should be done and everyone sees it. And i think that is the main argument: Would you want to be forced into seeing the change or allow the user to control what they see?
Most people want to be able to toggle and see the original version, that is the general consensus - Give the user the option of viewing what they want to see.
Some people change stuff to look hodgepodge, Others change it to not look hodgepodge. I prefer the "what you see is what you get" attitude. If the game and the Dev's allows for it then leave it be. But i do see the arguement for wanting to see the original version of whatever the item is. The purity of the game in intact in this way.
Tralyan said:I really don't understand why we can't just have cosmetic slots/transmog/whatever, but only have them shown in cities and towns - everywhere else, you're showing what you have equipped. It seems like the fairest compromise between both camps.
I don't hang around in cities and towns role-playing. It's the look of my adventuring gear that's important.
I think if you wanted to cover your armor with a cloak or robe or something that would be cool, but I don't see why if you’re wearing some type of distinguishable chainmail armor it should appear like something else, that just sounds silly to me, then again games today sucker people and make millions off selling useless skins and cosmetics, so what do I know.
disposalist said:Tralyan said:I really don't understand why we can't just have cosmetic slots/transmog/whatever, but only have them shown in cities and towns - everywhere else, you're showing what you have equipped. It seems like the fairest compromise between both camps.
I don't hang around in cities and towns role-playing. It's the look of my adventuring gear that's important.
Well sure, but that doesn't tell me how it's not a fair compromise between the two camps.
If I'm reading this correctly, group A wants cosmetic slots, and they don't want other people choosing how they see their characters. Group B wants to be able to toggle off and on how they see people. Group A wants to make their characters look a certain way, and they want people to see that. Group B wants to be able to choose how they see people, and believe being able to visually tell what a person has equipped is more important. Whether we understand WHY both sides think the way they do, or not, isn't really relevant. We just need to understand that it is just as important to them as it is to us. Right?
So, why not give Group A the ability to look however they want cosmetically, with no option to toggle that off, inside cities/towns/outposts - and give Group B the ability to see what people have equipped, visually, when in the adventuring world? How is that not fair? Or how is that LESS fair than one group getting their way and the other group not? And if your point is that you're out in the adventuring world much, much more than you are in cities and outposts, then why not tweak it to make it more even? Is it the time spent in certain situations that makes it unfair to you? Or is it something else? What about those who do spend a lot of time in cities and towns, and less out adventuring?
One side wants it their way, all the time, everywhere. The other side wants it their way, all the time, everywhere. This allows both sides to have it their way, sometimes, in some places.
There are certain things I don't think should be compromised on. Those are the things that originally drew us to support the Pantheon enterprise. Things like bringing the risk back into the MMO. Things like focusing on grouping. The major tenets that drew us all here that should not be compromised on.
But this? I may not completely understand why it's so important to either group to have it one way or the other, but I can at least understand that it is, indeed, important. What I absolutely can not understand is when stuff like that can't be compromised on.
Tralyan said:disposalist said:Tralyan said:I really don't understand why we can't just have cosmetic slots/transmog/whatever, but only have them shown in cities and towns - everywhere else, you're showing what you have equipped. It seems like the fairest compromise between both camps.
I don't hang around in cities and towns role-playing. It's the look of my adventuring gear that's important.
Well sure, but that doesn't tell me how it's not a fair compromise between the two camps.
If I'm reading this correctly, group A wants cosmetic slots, and they don't want other people choosing how they see their characters. Group B wants to be able to toggle off and on how they see people. Group A wants to make their characters look a certain way, and they want people to see that. Group B wants to be able to choose how they see people, and believe being able to visually tell what a person has equipped is more important. Whether we understand WHY both sides think the way they do, or not, isn't really relevant. We just need to understand that it is just as important to them as it is to us. Right?
So, why not give Group A the ability to look however they want cosmetically, with no option to toggle that off, inside cities/towns/outposts - and give Group B the ability to see what people have equipped, visually, when in the adventuring world? How is that not fair? Or how is that LESS fair than one group getting their way and the other group not? And if your point is that you're out in the adventuring world much, much more than you are in cities and outposts, then why not tweak it to make it more even? Is it the time spent in certain situations that makes it unfair to you? Or is it something else? What about those who do spend a lot of time in cities and towns, and less out adventuring?
One side wants it their way, all the time, everywhere. The other side wants it their way, all the time, everywhere. This allows both sides to have it their way, sometimes, in some places.
There are certain things I don't think should be compromised on. Those are the things that originally drew us to support the Pantheon enterprise. Things like bringing the risk back into the MMO. Things like focusing on grouping. The major tenets that drew us all here that should not be compromised on.
But this? I may not completely understand why it's so important to either group to have it one way or the other, but I can at least understand that it is, indeed, important. What I absolutely can not understand is when stuff like that can't be compromised on.
Compromise is great on issues like this but I think the compromise was already made. The toggle was the compromise. The original position was one side wanted cosmetic gear and appearance slots, the other did not. the compromise was allow appearance slots and cosmetic gear but allow the people that don't want it in their game to be able to turn it off.
I mean if I have to be forced to look at someone creation that I don't want to have anything to do with I supose only being forced to look at it in a few zones is better than all zones. I mean why do people want to force others to do something they don't want to? If you can force me to see your silly "outfit" can I now force you to listen to a song I have written? Can I have it on autoplay on my bard and run around with it on and you have no choice to not hear it except to turn off your speakers? My horribly out of tune nonesensical music that you really dont want to hear, can I force you to hear it because thats the image I want you to have of me instead of the default music for a bard song the game came with?
I know its all academic at this point since they have already said the toggle is in. I just cant beleive people are so selfish that they want to force everyone into their own little fantasy. It's just crazy to me is all. I respect that people take great pride in this stuff, I just don't want to participate. Fun to talk about though.
disposalist said:I want to make one last point here. I know that this appears to be one of those issues where VR have made their decision and it may be largely pointless to debate. I like to discuss these things anyway and I'm not looking to 'fight' the decision or cause a fuss or whatever.
The point is this: I think 'cosmetic' items are different to what I want and maybe two systems could be employed.
If VR don't think they can make cosmetic items that won't annoy some people (seems an odd stance, but ok) then perhaps allow people to 'save' the look of an item they've worn. Make it rare by it needing to 'consume' the item you want to 'save'. Allow people to override the look of current items by a 'saved' one.
For those that seem desperate to know exactly what items I'm wearing just by looking: -
1) Why should you? A lot of people want to turn off /inspect. Why should you be able to bypass that privacy?
2) Most people won't resist /inspect though, so if you must know (and often you won't know just by looking anyway) use /inspect
3) Even with great modern graphics items won't look as 'real' as some would like. If I want to look like I've worn the same armor for a year (because I have) I can't because it all always looks shiny and new.
4) You don't know what I've done or where I've been or how good I am by seeing my gear. You'll have no idea if it was a gift or a purchase or luck or whatever. Gear does not tell the story of my character, but me choosing my look would. If you want to know me, then you will want to see the items that I'm most proud of from my whole career not what happens to be best in slot this week.
5) This is a role-playing game. I know for some it's all about the loot, but for some it's an RPG and enjoyment is based in the place our character has in the world. How people see our character is important.
Anyway, that's it. I think I understand all the arguments and I respect VR's stance (though it has some weird and worrying implications about what they think 'cosmetic' items might be like) I just think having cosmetics (giving control over your look) then adding a switch (giving that control away) is weird.
Well said. I have always felt that the /appearance functionality was backwards. It does nothing to prevent players from looking the way they want. If someone wants to wear bright yellow armor then they just equip it in the standard slot. I think it's pretty immersion breaking that two different people could see different looking characters. Something sudden happens and the group yells quick, run to the big green ogre! Well it just so happens that they run to the wrong ogre because of how this system works. Players will obviously train themselves to not use appearance as a way to identify a player and that kind of stinks. I would much rather have control of how my character appears to others. Also, if one person trolls and wears yellow armor, is there an individual toggle or is it an on/off switch for everybody? If it works universally all it takes is a couple bad apples to ruin the system for all of the legitimate players, but you can't really fix it anyway because they can still just equip that gear in the standard slots. Hhmmm.
AgentGenX said: I thought this game was NOT going to have a cash shop? Also, is there anyone here who would play with the toggle on? Aside from maybe RPers, it seems everyone's saying they will have it off. Personally, I'd rather see their true gear, so I'll probably have it off too.
Eh, I won't be doing much PvPing in any case so if someone's gear matters to me I'll likely have time to see the real deal by inspecting them so I might run with the "see how everone's Barbie doll looks" option. As far as my stuff, if I find something I REALLY like the look of I'll probably cosmetic it when done with it, especially if the replacement looks like *** but I'm not one of those "look an appearance up on line then go farm it" types...
oneADseven said:disposalist said:I want to make one last point here. I know that this appears to be one of those issues where VR have made their decision and it may be largely pointless to debate. I like to discuss these things anyway and I'm not looking to 'fight' the decision or cause a fuss or whatever.
The point is this: I think 'cosmetic' items are different to what I want and maybe two systems could be employed.
If VR don't think they can make cosmetic items that won't annoy some people (seems an odd stance, but ok) then perhaps allow people to 'save' the look of an item they've worn. Make it rare by it needing to 'consume' the item you want to 'save'. Allow people to override the look of current items by a 'saved' one.
For those that seem desperate to know exactly what items I'm wearing just by looking: -
1) Why should you? A lot of people want to turn off /inspect. Why should you be able to bypass that privacy?
2) Most people won't resist /inspect though, so if you must know (and often you won't know just by looking anyway) use /inspect
3) Even with great modern graphics items won't look as 'real' as some would like. If I want to look like I've worn the same armor for a year (because I have) I can't because it all always looks shiny and new.
4) You don't know what I've done or where I've been or how good I am by seeing my gear. You'll have no idea if it was a gift or a purchase or luck or whatever. Gear does not tell the story of my character, but me choosing my look would. If you want to know me, then you will want to see the items that I'm most proud of from my whole career not what happens to be best in slot this week.
5) This is a role-playing game. I know for some it's all about the loot, but for some it's an RPG and enjoyment is based in the place our character has in the world. How people see our character is important.
Anyway, that's it. I think I understand all the arguments and I respect VR's stance (though it has some weird and worrying implications about what they think 'cosmetic' items might be like) I just think having cosmetics (giving control over your look) then adding a switch (giving that control away) is weird.
Well said. I have always felt that the /appearance functionality was backwards. It does nothing to prevent players from looking the way they want. If someone wants to wear bright yellow armor then they just equip it in the standard slot. I think it's pretty immersion breaking that two different people could see different looking characters. Something sudden happens and the group yells quick, run to the big green ogre! Well it just so happens that they run to the wrong ogre because of how this system works. Players will obviously train themselves to not use appearance as a way to identify a player and that kind of stinks. I would much rather have control of how my character appears to others. Also, if one person trolls and wears yellow armor, is there an individual toggle or is it an on/off switch for everybody? If it works universally all it takes is a couple bad apples to ruin the system for all of the legitimate players, but you can't really fix it anyway because they can still just equip that gear in the standard slots. Hhmmm.
Excellent point. Especially the people seeing different things. It's just ridiculous. Talk about immersion breaking. Personally, I'd rather have no costume slot function at all than have it half-work.
It's interesting there's a huge argument going on in the Battlefield community currently with a similar issue. The new game (Battlefield V) has customisation. A lot of the issue isn't appropriate to an MMORPG, but central for me is, if I choose to use camouflage customisation and go hide in a bush the players who toggle off the customisations will be able to see me clear as day while I think I'm hidden. It's even more ridiculous as it also has a functional impact in an FPS, but it's a similar example to how unimmersive it is for some to 'switch off' what I want to look like.
Have visual customisation or don't.
Why not have a wardrobe option, where you can put anything, even armor into slots for appearance, BUT these items are inert and have the like 1 AC while on. Make it so you can quickly display this "wardrobe" while out of combat, maybe even put a minimm timer on it (like 2 minutes out of combat before you can switch). But once you enter combat or attract agro, your true armor becomes visible automatically.
This would allow players to quickly change out of thier adventuring armor when in town, since even knights didn't walk around town in full armor with 8 backpacks and 10 weapons hanging all over them.
In essence, the wardrobe option appeases those that want a "look" when not in combat, but with the auto-combat switch, you don't look like a peasent in a wool tunic while fighting a dragon.