Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Should we expect to see Gear like this in Pantheon - one day?

    • 469 posts
    June 12, 2018 8:29 AM PDT

    When they need to add a scrollbar to your item_stats window, it's too much. :P

    • 11 posts
    June 12, 2018 8:29 PM PDT

    Retsof said:

    Doesn't look like much of a shovel to me. Doubt it digs well at all. At least they didn't put RGB lights on it. 

     

    Actually, it was a shovel!  Here it is on my paladin:

     

    The one you see in the first screenshot is actually the weapon with the Dread Knight Epic soul slotted into it. All of those purple values are stats that are slotted into the Grave Digger. So really that item is like 1 weapon with 4-5 separate items (With stats) added to it.

     

    I actually didn't mind it.  Though my rogue's epic dagger had so many stats that it literally went off the screen and you couldn't read them all.  Here's the Jharru Blade screenshot I took (When it was bugged, it's supposed to be mythic)

     You'll notice it has an empty slot since I took this before Imbued augments were added, and I didn't have it fully tricked out yet. By the end, I couldn't even take a screenshot of it because it had so many damn stats.

    I would be happier with less overall stats on stuff though, just trim it down a little.   A lot of this stuff wasn't even necessary.


    This post was edited by Jakkal at June 12, 2018 8:30 PM PDT
    • 242 posts
    June 13, 2018 12:44 AM PDT

    Now that's a proper shovel.

    • 2392 posts
    June 13, 2018 1:14 AM PDT

    "Gold Membership Required."  Listed right there at the top.  What a horrible state of affairs to see something like that on an item that needs it's own scroll bar.  I'm glad we'll never see stuff like that in Pantheon.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 13, 2018 1:26 AM PDT
    • 42 posts
    June 13, 2018 4:53 AM PDT

    Here is the unmodified item as it dropped:

     

    You can see that the item itself wasn't all that crazy. They just added a system in later on that allowed people to modify their weapons in a way they saw fight through augmentations.  As Jakkal said, every stat in purple on the initially posted picture was from an augmentation. A lot of the augments were simple but some of the raid augments had a lot of stats and thats where you got the crazy stat length. The Soul Prison: Almagus of Perfection is the class "epic" aug that changed the graphic from the shovel to a unique greatsword look.

     

     

    Vanguard itself was a fantastic game and had the best class system I have played in any mmo to date.


    This post was edited by Faux at June 13, 2018 4:56 AM PDT
    • 137 posts
    June 13, 2018 7:15 AM PDT

    Joppa said: "One very simple and practical solution to the stat/tooltip bloat you see above is nestling more of these standalone bonuses into the parent attributes."

    And also have the UI combine stats that are the same and just add them up and display them in one line. So if you have 3 sockets that each have a +3 crit gem, it won't say:

    • +3 crit
    • +3 crit
    • +3 crit

    But instead will just say:

    • +9 crit.

    Joppa said: "Opportunity to collapse several of these bonus statistics into one (I'm a huge fan of elegance and simplicity in statistics). So all of this granular stuff, like Rage resistance, Flurry resistance, Critical and AoE resistance would be rolled into Physical Damage Mitigation and Spell Damage Mitigation groups.

    - When you roll the granular bonuses into families, you then roll those up into Attributes. So when you hover over Strength, you may see a popup that says: "Currently increasing your Damage Rating (+X%) and Physical Damage Mitigation (+Y%) and your Critical Strike Chance (+Z%).""

    But what if you want to give an item More of one of these effects than another. So you want an item to have tons of extra crit, but only a little extra damage mitigation? You can't just give extra strength because it will effect both of these stats equally. So you'd still have to have that extra line on the item description for +crit seperate from the +Physical Damage Mitigation line, which is also sepearte from the +str line.

    And since there might be many different stats that a class will be worried about, isn't it possible that we might eventually have items that boost most or all of those stats. So like a warrior gets a helm that has: Str, Agi, Sta, Dodge, Block, Melee Haste, Melee Crit Chance, Melee Crit Damage, HP, Energy (whatever it's called), HP Regen, Energy Regen, Resist Fire, Resist Ice, Resist Poison, Resist etc...(maybe you could just have an All Resist effect), as well as a Climate Attunement. The list could go on.

    Joppas said: "But there are many other thoughts I could add as well - it may be worth the time to write a blog post on this at some point in the near future!"

    I will be looking forward to reading it :-)

    PS. I do like the idea of a Damage Rating stat since it can play into the scaling of abilities. So say Elbow Strike = 50 Dmg + 75% of Damage Rating. Whereas Rising Moon Kick = 25 Dmg + 125% of Damage Rating. Which means that Rising Moon Kick may start out similar in damage with Elbow Strike but will scale better as your Damage Rating goes up.

    • 11 posts
    June 13, 2018 8:20 AM PDT

    I'd like to point out that the one thing I liked about the Vanguard items with slots is that we could customize it with the stats we wanted.  Just some of the raid stuff had a lot of stats added. And because they didn't display stacked, it pushed the length of it.

    For example, as a rogue, I was capped on strength and dex, so I liked being able to put con augments in to get a HP/resistance boost.

    • 252 posts
    June 13, 2018 9:12 AM PDT
    I really hope not. I want a +3 str magic item to mean something. I really hope damage numbers keep from becoming inflated as well. If you want crazy numbers and gear like that go play diablo 3.
    • 72 posts
    June 13, 2018 10:51 AM PDT

    Ashvaild said: I really hope not. I want a +3 str magic item to mean something. I really hope damage numbers keep from becoming inflated as well. If you want crazy numbers and gear like that go play diablo 3.

     

    Eventually every game get over inflated it's just a matter of how long it takes for it to get to that point. For instance WoW is doing it's second stat/damage squish cause the numbers were getting so big it was causing technical issues. Then you have EQ which imo was doing fine for the first 3 expansions then with PoP stats doubled in some cases tripled the previous expansion. 

    What it comes down to is design and how you want power/progression to be handled either top raiding gear from current expansion lasts till you replace it with starting raiding gear from next expansion or top raiding gear from current expansions get's replaced with normal gear from next expansion.

    The first way it will keep the stats/damage closer between expansions with the second way you are going to have more of a gap with stats/damage between expansions.


    This post was edited by Xinux at June 13, 2018 11:00 AM PDT
    • 405 posts
    June 13, 2018 11:06 AM PDT

    @Jakkal, you've come a long way.

    • 405 posts
    June 13, 2018 11:15 AM PDT

    Yeah those sockets got crazy in Vanguard. I think they went with them as an alternative to using AA's. And it was something SoE thought they might be able to monetize possibly with aesthetic items.

    I was lucky enough to actually get a few gems socketed into my backpacks before they backed(nerfed) that feature out.

    And Xinux is right, if a game progresses far enough, inflation(all types) happens. How to avoid it is always the challenge. It's usually never the same team working on things that started it.

    • 11 posts
    June 13, 2018 1:50 PM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    @Jakkal, you've come a long way.

     

    It's a meeee!  Yeah that's the APW set. And looking at the epic dagger, looks like I put that set on just for the pic :)

    • 633 posts
    June 13, 2018 9:21 PM PDT

    Those items should be 4-5 years into expansions before putting that out i hope. Putting hard back into the game.

    It has to be a slower progression then just handing huge stats so early.

     

    IF you dont believe me? then why are they nerfing EQ after 15 years so badly.... because they ran out of stats for many things.

    • 72 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:05 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    That game is Vanguard. Created by Chris Perkins(Joppa), Brad, etc.

    Chris wasn't on Vanguard staff and the reason for that mess of sh_t on items was due to Nathan Pearce. He's not on VR so I wouldn't count on it.

     

    http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/vanguard-saga-of-heroes/credits


    This post was edited by Darkintellect at June 14, 2018 1:09 AM PDT
    • 405 posts
    June 14, 2018 9:08 AM PDT

    @Darkintellect Oh you are right. My bad. Now I'm trying to remember who I am conflating Perkins with. I last worked with a couple guys from the Vanguard team, and they talked about someone who got less credit but did more of the driving for vanguard. I will have to see if I can catch up to them.

    No wonder we see much more D&D influence in Pantheon than we did in Vanguard and EQ1. Perkins is an old Wizards of the Coast guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Perkins_(game_designer)

    Chris Perkins is a mystery, where did this guy come from.


    This post was edited by zewtastic at June 14, 2018 11:32 AM PDT
    • 813 posts
    June 14, 2018 9:14 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    @Darkintellect Oh you are right. My bad. Now I'm trying to remember who I am conflating Perkins with. I last worked with a couple guys from the Vanguard team, and they talked about someone who got less credit but did more of the driving for vanguard. I will have to see if I can catch up to them.

    No wonder we see much more D&D influence in Pantheon than we did in Vanguard and EQ1. Perkins is an old Wizards of the Coast guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Perkins_(game_designer)

     

    That doesn't look like the same guy at all. Are you checking your sources.. I mean .. sometimes .. ?

    • 66 posts
    June 14, 2018 10:27 AM PDT
    I’m of the opinion that Panthron should stay away from bastardizing gear in ways like the one shown in the original post. First you have to get the gear, next thing you know you then need to acquire runes to “customize” the item. Then, after s shirt time later, you have to add infusions to your gear, followed by some other mechanic. Where does it end? When I have finally put firth enough effort (or luck) in getting a cool piece of loot, I want that moment to be special and complete. Not a first step in an even longer process to mske that item be all it can be. I’ll pass on items like the VG item shown.
    • 405 posts
    June 14, 2018 11:29 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    zewtastic said:

    @Darkintellect Oh you are right. My bad. Now I'm trying to remember who I am conflating Perkins with. I last worked with a couple guys from the Vanguard team, and they talked about someone who got less credit but did more of the driving for vanguard. I will have to see if I can catch up to them.

    No wonder we see much more D&D influence in Pantheon than we did in Vanguard and EQ1. Perkins is an old Wizards of the Coast guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Perkins_(game_designer)

     

    That doesn't look like the same guy at all. Are you checking your sources.. I mean .. sometimes .. ?

    Well it took some(well a lot of) digging, but yes that wiki link does not appear to be the same Chris Perkins that is Creative Director for VR.

    So really, we know nothing about Perkins(VR) past experience - at all. He is largely a mystery.


    This post was edited by zewtastic at June 14, 2018 11:38 AM PDT
    • 61 posts
    June 14, 2018 11:34 AM PDT

    urgatorbait said: When I have finally put forth enough effort (or luck) in getting a cool piece of loot, I want that moment to be special and complete. Not a first step in an even longer process to make that item be all it can be. I’ll pass on items like the VG item shown.

    That's kind of where I'm at.

    When gear starts coming with an Operator's Manual I think it may have gone too far. Imagine having 10 pieces of gear with 6 slots each. Some gamers have the mind for that, and that's great. For me it becomes a chore.  


    This post was edited by VicNuggets at June 14, 2018 11:35 AM PDT
    • 433 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:48 PM PDT

    Its good to hear that Joppa is a minimalist when it comes to visual design. 

    I do imagine at some point down the line, say 5-10 years, you may see item stats looking like that. But that example is ugly, too many color differences and font issues. 

    • 1205 posts
    June 14, 2018 3:29 PM PDT

    Ashvaild said: I really hope not. I want a +3 str magic item to mean something. I really hope damage numbers keep from becoming inflated as well. If you want crazy numbers and gear like that go play diablo 3.

     

    Amen!

    • 433 posts
    June 14, 2018 8:52 PM PDT
    I dont disagree with you that crazy numbers should not exist and that +3 items should mean something. Im just being a realist. I actually hope that items wont look that rediculous for nearly 10 years or more. I just hope they make the stat windows more appealing than that monstrosity. I understand lore implenentation but leave that to a right click or hover feature. Just too busy.
    • 72 posts
    June 16, 2018 8:16 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Chris Perkins is a mystery, where did this guy come from.

     

    From what I can tell, he has experience with MMOs but not a large degree of development experience. If I'm wrong please chime in @Joppa. If so, this fits under the "gotta start somewhere" notion. Some of the best creative developers or developments were from people put into the position who were generally new to the position. When you're a veteran to the MMO genre, you can tend to get tangled up in a set routine, playing the safe or generally trite method for job security or to appease publishers or investors. It then becomes about going for the easy and safe money or return on investment which after all that can leave one jaded which in itself affects creativity. 

    I've seen this in just about everything in now 20+ years, not just video games or game design in general. 

    Another thing I've found that was good for a company was to not have the creative side of production set in a closed fielding or a linear approach. If someone has real creativity for the true essense of the project, you get the most out of them by having them lend their skill in everything from music, to class mechanics, combat structure and dynamics, lore, environmental, etc. By tapping into all areas, it prevents one from limiting their focus to one area which usually leads to a good deal of wasted time and dry runs or creator's block.

    What Visionary Realms is doing is somewhat untried, or through these exact parameters isn't done all that often because you tend not to have these set circumstances that lend to something with the possibility of being truly great. I'm always the skeptic and while we haven't heard much about Chris Perkins prior to this project other than sharing a name with the WoTC guy, it's the one aspect about the game I'm oddly not worried about.


    This post was edited by Darkintellect at June 16, 2018 8:19 AM PDT
    • 1076 posts
    June 16, 2018 10:08 AM PDT

    Thank you Joppa- that makes alot of sense! after all, we will be in YOUR(and others) world.

    • 300 posts
    June 17, 2018 7:39 PM PDT

    Wig said: Minimal stat upgrades and horizontal progression can help prolong this

    That's what I'm hoping for out the gate. I'd like to see smaller stats rather than the massive numerical craziness we see in some games. Keeping the stats more limited on gear will make that upgrade much sweeter. Seeing a +1 or +2 at lower levels when limited can be way more gratifying than a piñata of loot that sprays +20, +30, Proc, reduce damage and half a dozen other stats every few mobs. So hopefully that gear will get more mileage than a level or two...or a handful of mobs before another one drops.

    Keep it small and when you do get the big one. Smiley face.


    This post was edited by Kratuk at June 17, 2018 7:39 PM PDT