Now, I noticed under the class page this one part all the way at the bottom called iconic ability. Now this sounds cool and all, but I'm curious how this works, is it a long cooldown? I would prefer it not be honestly.
I don't know if this has been discussed or not, i tried to search for it sadly, i don't know how some of ya'll can find stuff on this forum lol.
Anyways, they sound cool, but so far the only info on them is the cleric and shaman one. Unless I'm just not reading enough into the other classes, which is possible, i don't really retain much information when reading.
But, if these are like class ultimates, obviously you would want a long cooldown on them, like 10 minutes or so. But what about doing something different? How about doing your job? Clerics gain their iconic ability resource from healing, and some from doing some damage kind of things. Shaman get theirs from healing and slowing and doing damage, you know, kinda like a i can't just chill out of combat for a few minutes to reuse this ability kind of thing. But make it an earned iconic ability instead of just a given iconic ability.
Now, these can also be old information that they planned and are deciding to get rid of kind of thing, I'd be ok with that too, but I think earning it would be better than waiting for it to come back if it is still a planned thing.
Any thoughts?
Iconic Ability would be the Monk FD. Granted that will be a 10-15 second cooldown I would imagine but each class will be different. The class reveals over the next few months should tend to highlight this but would the Rogue's be Backstab? We may need more clarity on this and the one page you are looking at is not how we will be seeing the class reveals the new ones will be.
Snowman84 said:Iconic Ability would be the Monk FD. Granted that will be a 10-15 second cooldown I would imagine but each class will be different. The class reveals over the next few months should tend to highlight this but would the Rogue's be Backstab? We may need more clarity on this and the one page you are looking at is not how we will be seeing the class reveals the new ones will be.
Makes sense i guess, but if that is an ability we can use with a low cooldown the shaman one definitely sounds OP. Guess we will have to wait and see.
Well, Feign Death on a short re-use timer is what makes it so incredibly overpowered. If it was only usable once every 10 minutes, it would be a "oh crap, maybe I can use this to try and not die" instead of " I am using this instead of hide, sneak, invis, teleport, coh/summon, mem blur / concussion, and for pulling singles and scouting in general.
But for whatever reason, Visionary Realms is absolutely in love with the overpowered 10-15 second re-use of Feign Death, which is awesome for Monks. :) If they leave it as is, I will definitely have a Monk alt. I mean, there's no downside now that they generate Chakra from normal combat damage.
vjek said:Well, Feign Death on a short re-use timer is what makes it so incredibly overpowered. If it was only usable once every 10 minutes, it would be a "oh crap, maybe I can use this to try and not die" instead of " I am using this instead of hide, sneak, invis, teleport, coh/summon, mem blur / concussion, and for pulling singles and scouting in general.
But for whatever reason, Visionary Realms is absolutely in love with the overpowered 10-15 second re-use of Feign Death, which is awesome for Monks. :) If they leave it as is, I will definitely have a Monk alt. I mean, there's no downside now that they generate Chakra from normal combat damage.
Well, that short reuse also makes it another class that can pull... It's really logical, otherwise only a select couple of classes maybe can pool, meaning every group would need that class, meaning less use from all around classes in general, which would limit the playerbase on what groups would fill up with.
Not sure if FD is the iconic ability tho because the way shaman's and clerics is worded it would be pretty OP for a short reuse type of ability. Has it been said that FD is their iconic ability?
Dubah said:Not sure if FD is the iconic ability tho because the way shaman's and clerics is worded it would be pretty OP for a short reuse type of ability. Has it been said that FD is their iconic ability?
Perhaps you haven't checked out the Pantheon Wiki It has lots of great stuff.
There are four classes so far that have their Iconic Ability listed, and Feign Death is indeed the one for Monk. Shaman, Rogue and Cleric are the other 3.
In his interview with Bazgrim, I remember Joppa saying that iconic abilities were not necessarily a class's most powerful ability, but rather bread-and-butter abilities that were just very representative of what a class is about. I get the feeling they're mostly just listed for some flavor on the class pages, and won't necessarily have any special significance attached to them in the game. But I could be wrong.
Gyldervane said:In his interview with Bazgrim, I remember Joppa saying that iconic abilities were not necessarily a class's most powerful ability, but rather bread-and-butter abilities that were just very representative of what a class is about. I get the feeling they're mostly just listed for some flavor on the class pages, and won't necessarily have any special significance attached to them in the game. But I could be wrong.
Correct. The iconic ability is just one ability that they chose to highlight because it is a fundamental part of that class's arsenal. It's nothing too special - just an example of what that class can do. That format of class reveals will be replaced with the new ones that showcases several more abilities.
You can watch my interview with Joppa where he talks about this here: https://youtu.be/4vebn1AN6KY
Thanks - often these abilities are called "class-defining" abilities; at least they used to be called that.
Things that the class has, that other classes generally do not have and that are significant.
Things that make the class feel different from other classes - things that if you don't enjoy maybe this isn't the class for you.
dorotea said:Thanks - often these abilities are called "class-defining" abilities; at least they used to be called that.
Things that the class has, that other classes generally do not have and that are significant.
Things that make the class feel different from other classes - things that if you don't enjoy maybe this isn't the class for you.
Yeah - I would agree with this statement - I view Iconic abilities as what makes the class unique and adds to the interdependence between classes (basically the skill that adds the most to the main role/utility which is necessary in groups) moreso than having one skill that is on an hour+ cooldown timer like Lay on Hands for Paladins.
Raidan said:dorotea said:Thanks - often these abilities are called "class-defining" abilities; at least they used to be called that.
Things that the class has, that other classes generally do not have and that are significant.
Things that make the class feel different from other classes - things that if you don't enjoy maybe this isn't the class for you.
Yeah - I would agree with this statement - I view Iconic abilities as what makes the class unique and adds to the interdependence between classes (basically the skill that adds the most to the main role/utility which is necessary in groups) moreso than having one skill that is on an hour+ cooldown timer like Lay on Hands for Paladins.
Should be noted that Joppa said that class-defining Iconic abilities are not always unique, but if another class has the same type of ability the Iconic one will always be better. He used the example of Monks Feign Death. He said that other classes may also have an ability to drop aggro entirely, such as the rogue Flash Bomb, but according to him the Feign Death ability since it's an Iconic ability will work better.
My guess is that Feign Death will always work on every type of mob and as long as you stay down the Mob will not re-aggro on you. With Flash Bomb it says it "automatically activates Shadow Walk or Shadow Dwell" which some mobs will NOT be fooled by (ie: can see through Shadow Walk) and will re-aggro.
Of course this is just a guess on how Feign Death will be better than Flash Bomb... things may be different that I predict, but Joppa has said that Feign Death will always work better. We will have to wait and see.
@GoofyWarriorGuy
Good point. My choice of the word unique probably wasn't the right one - I was meaning more that there will be distinct class roles which will be aided by iconic abilities versus blurred class lines like in newer age MMOs. You are correct that there will be most likely some overlap of abilities (even iconic ones) like FD through your example of the rogue Flash Bomb.
I think Joppa may have been meaning other classes might get FD, like Dire Lord or Necromancer getting their own version like EQ. These would likely have a longer reuse, lower reliability, or some other divergent mechanic (spell-based vs. ability). Joppa said in Bazgrim's interview, "If there are other abilities that are similar to Feign Death, it will be to a lesser extent. They won't be quite as full or as powerful as Feign Death." Also, "We have a few ideas with Feign Death to not rob it of its role and its potency, but to not allow it to trivialize and circumvent the challenge..."
Rogue Flash Bomb will wipe aggro ("Throw a flash bomb at your feet, immediately ending combat"), but magical or undead mobs will see through Shadow Walk... maybe not Shadow Dwell.
Rogue class page: "While Shadow Walk is active, you are invisible to living, non-magical targets..." "Rogues can evolve their Shadow Walk ability into Shadow Dwell, achieving a nearly supernatural degree of stealth..."
The "supernatural" implies Shadow Dwell may work on targets Shadow Walk does not, but that's speculative based on wording.
Regardless, FD will be better... unless it fails, and only if their enemy is not in the process of casting. I think a 100% success rate on FD is an assumption that has also been disproven in the streams so far. Rogues are expected to wipe aggro entirely with Flash Bomb, meaning as long as they're outside the aggro range of the mob, whether the mob can see through their shadows might become irrelevant. Line of sight should be important to both classes and their respective abilities.
The rogue/monk comparison seems like "apples and oranges" to me, where a monk/dire lord FD might be more like fuji and granny smith apple variety comparisons.
Circling around (obliquely) to the OP, dorotea nailed it.
DagNabbit said: Regardless, FD will be better... unless it fails, and only if their enemy is not in the process of casting. I think a 100% success rate on FD is an assumption that has also been disproven in the streams so far.
I both agree and disagree with this statement. When referring to 100% success rate this is misleading. Yes there will be instances where your Feign Death will fail, such as monsters casting a spell that still continues after you Feign which will hit you and show the monsters that you are still alive. But this didn't mean the FD was not a success, just that it was able to be broken. In EQ1 this would happen all the time. You would FD and the mobs would stop attacking, but the wizard mob in the back had started casting a spell on you which would complete and you would be hit by the damage and then the fight would be on again. This does not mean that the Feign failed... but rather it ended before you ended it. This could also happen if you were hit by an AoE spell.
Also, since Feign Death was based on a Skill... "You become better at Feign Death" ... there was a point early on where your Feign Death could fail outright and the monsters were not convinced. As you leveled up though, you would eventually reach a mastery point where it no longer failed no matter what level the monsters were.
Now you may be suggesting that VR has decided against this and there may always be a % chance that your FD will fail outright, and I'm sure some people would agrue in favor of this. But in my opinion this kind of unreliablity takes away from the iconic role that Feign Death creates. In EQ1 monks were the primary pullers because of the reliablity of this ability. If you take away the 100% reliablity of success then it no longer gives monks the distinction of being the best puller. In EQ1 the bard class eventually took over pulling because they had a reliable 100% success aggro dump and had the added advantage of being able to run really really fast. Once this happend, the monk class became kind of unimportant since they were not the dps powerhouse and didn't have any other buffs, debuffs, or crowd control to add value to the raid. Since the bard Does have other value with buffs and debuffs why not bring a bard instead of a monk on the raid.
This is what Joppa was referring to when he meant that FD will always need to be Better than the other class alternatives. If it is not the Iconic most reliable version, then Bards and possibly rogues will superseed the main point of having a monk in the group/raid since those other classes add other value from their classes 'Iconic' abilities.